Homebrew PCBs

With mechanical etching you can mill and drill. Each bit will mill
3 to 4  4" X 6" boards. It is safer for students thats why the schools
use the machines. Every board is usable. Chemical etching in the hands
of a beginner is hit or miss. Milling is cheaper and faster in some
cases. TT is the way to go but it is not working for everybody.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "crankorgan" <john@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:29 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Mechanical Etching


>     With mechanical etching you can mill and drill. Each bit will mill
> 3 to 4  4" X 6" boards. It is safer for students thats why the schools
> use the machines. Every board is usable. Chemical etching in the hands
> of a beginner is hit or miss. Milling is cheaper and faster in some
> cases. TT is the way to go but it is not working for everybody.

UV exposure and chemical etching is very easy and quick, I've never had any 
problems with it, although it did take a little experimentation to get the 
correct UV exposure time (30  minutes or so). Once that is established it 
works very well, every time.

Leon 

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I live in New Jersey and I run www.kleinbauer.com as a real
business Tax Number and all. Technically speaking mechanical etching
keeps me from having to file with the EPA. Every so often the state
sends me a letter asking what chemicals I use. Like I said I got a
super fund site near me. You guys can dump your chemicals down the
drain, I can't. I have already signed on the dotted line saying I
don't have chemicals here.

    I did my last few boards in Eagle and running the Outlines.ULP I
found on the net I had a milled board in less than an hour later. I am
still using left over used bits from when I was milling and selling
Piker 3X and 4X boards. I milled and sold hundreds of Piker boards
back in 2003. I then had them etched in Texas. The cost in a batch of
50 etched was  $16 and change each.  I can mill and drill the same for
around $6   $2 for the board and $4 for the drill and milling bit wear
and tear. Each bit gave me three boards and the drill bit would last a
little more than one board. I would sell the milled board for $35 I
went on to sell the Etched board for $40.

                                  John         


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@b...>
wrote:
>
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "crankorgan" <john@k...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:29 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Mechanical Etching
> 
> 
> >     With mechanical etching you can mill and drill. Each bit will mill
> > 3 to 4  4" X 6" boards. It is safer for students thats why the schools
> > use the machines. Every board is usable. Chemical etching in the hands
> > of a beginner is hit or miss. Milling is cheaper and faster in some
> > cases. TT is the way to go but it is not working for everybody.
> 
> UV exposure and chemical etching is very easy and quick, I've never
had any 
> problems with it, although it did take a little experimentation to
get the 
> correct UV exposure time (30  minutes or so). Once that is
established it 

> works very well, every time.
> 
> Leon 
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
> currently using to read this email. ]
>

>      I live in New Jersey and I run www.kleinbauer.com as a real
> business Tax Number and all. Technically speaking mechanical 
etching
> keeps me from having to file with the EPA. Every so often the state
> sends me a letter asking what chemicals I use. Like I said I got a
> super fund site near me. You guys can dump your chemicals down the
> drain, I can't. I have already signed on the dotted line saying I
> don't have chemicals here.

Yeah, they are much tougher out east with regard to "toxic" waste 
removal and such. However, why not just let the chemicals evaporate 
(it's mostly water) which only leaves the solids which are much 
easier to dispose of.

Although, it seems to me that the instructions for Ferric Chloride 
disposal are to dump it down the drain.  If the instructions state 
that, I would have to assume it is safe to do so. Is it?

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@...>
> Although, it seems to me that the instructions for Ferric Chloride
> disposal are to dump it down the drain.  If the instructions state
> that, I would have to assume it is safe to do so. Is it?

Neutralize it in washing soda first. Arm & Hammer or whatever brand you find 
in the supermarket will do just fine.

FeCl3 is used in water treatment, as in drinking water, to deodorize and 
disinfect. All the same, it takes only a few seconds and costs just pennies 
to neutralize it before dumping.

I hear what you are saying. Years ago I used presensitized boards
and that red plastic mask that you cut and pealed away. The Ferric
Chloride I used back then said to flush it down the drain so I did. I
live across the street from the Passaic river. When I was a kid there
were no fish in the river. It had human waste and chemicals in it.
Once the most beautiful river east of the Mississippi. Now it is the
most polluted and it will never be clean. So many "harmless chemicals"
as they used to tell us here made it into the river. There were two
Agent Orange factories on the river. That chemical breaks down into
something worse and it sits in the silt forever. I don't have children
but I still care about the envirement. There is a field a few miles
from here where they chromed bumpers. All the streams and rivers in
the area are DEAD! Comparing Vinegar with Ferric Chloride is one of
those type of tricks they used to pull on us here. Even if you let the
Ferric Chloride dryout it is still a pollutant. With mechanical
etching you get a thimble of fiberglass dust. To keep the dust down
spread three drops of motor oil on the boards before milling.  


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@...m, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:

>
> 
> >      I live in New Jersey and I run www.kleinbauer.com as a real
> > business Tax Number and all. Technically speaking mechanical 
> etching
> > keeps me from having to file with the EPA. Every so often the state
> > sends me a letter asking what chemicals I use. Like I said I got a
> > super fund site near me. You guys can dump your chemicals down the
> > drain, I can't. I have already signed on the dotted line saying I
> > don't have chemicals here.
> 
> Yeah, they are much tougher out east with regard to "toxic" waste 
> removal and such. However, why not just let the chemicals evaporate 
> (it's mostly water) which only leaves the solids which are much 
> easier to dispose of.
> 
> Although, it seems to me that the instructions for Ferric Chloride 
> disposal are to dump it down the drain.  If the instructions state 
> that, I would have to assume it is safe to do so. Is it?
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 2:24 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Mechanical Etching


>
>>      I live in New Jersey and I run www.kleinbauer.com as a real
>> business Tax Number and all. Technically speaking mechanical
> etching
>> keeps me from having to file with the EPA. Every so often the state
>> sends me a letter asking what chemicals I use. Like I said I got a
>> super fund site near me. You guys can dump your chemicals down the
>> drain, I can't. I have already signed on the dotted line saying I
>> don't have chemicals here.
>
> Yeah, they are much tougher out east with regard to "toxic" waste
> removal and such. However, why not just let the chemicals evaporate
> (it's mostly water) which only leaves the solids which are much
> easier to dispose of.
>
> Although, it seems to me that the instructions for Ferric Chloride
> disposal are to dump it down the drain.  If the instructions state
> that, I would have to assume it is safe to do so. Is it?

It's basically iron, copper and chloride ions in solution. I can't see the 
small quantities used for home etching causing any problems with water 
treatment. What the water companies don't like are chemicals that kill the 
bacteria in their sewage treatment plants, like some chlorinated solvents. 
That is what I was told many years ago by someone from the water company who 
used to test the outflow where I worked, at random intervals, several times 
a year. I just flush it down the lavatory when it is exhausted.

Leon 

---
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The ferric chloride is not the problem, the copper is.
Copper is poisonous to bacteria and such.

ST


On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:03:38 +0100, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

>
> It's basically iron, copper and chloride ions in solution. I can't see  
> the
>
> small quantities used for home etching causing any problems with water
>
> treatment. What the water companies don't like are chemicals that kill  
> the
>
> bacteria in their sewage treatment plants, like some chlorinated  
> solvents.
>
> That is what I was told many years ago by someone from the water company  
> who
>
> used to test the outflow where I worked, at random intervals, several  
> times
>
> a year. I just flush it down the lavatory when it is exhausted.
>
>
> Leon
>

I've seen several recommendations on throwing the FC in some cement 
mix, etc. to make a "moon rock" which you could throw in the trash 
(sorry if that's already in this thread). Seems easy enough and the 
cement powder was only 2 or 3 bucks for a giant bag at the hardware 
store last time I bought any.

FWIW- I had to resort to re-using my three "almost spent" bottles of 
FC on my last etch after calculating the amount of my new Sodium 
Persulfate crystals that I would need in order to fill my recently 
built etch tank.

Using the tank (with heater and pump), the old FC acted better and 
faster than what I was accustomed to under manual agitation and 
exterior warm water heat. It was even cut with a bit of H2O to fill 
the tank. I probably could've done without the airborne brown mist of 
FC that the bubblers put off, but I still haven't added my hold-downs 
for them or a top for the tank. Should give someone on my level way 
more time before disposal is required (and save some cash).

                                   -George

george

any details on your tank setup?

tnx
jtm

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Miller" <jim@j...> wrote:
> any details on your tank setup?

No problem. It's a pretty basic design. I built it after seeing this 
one-

http://www.embeddedtronics.com/etchant.html

Mine looks about like that. I just checked, and it's about 11" x10" 
x1.5" (h/w/d). I have the luxury of a radial arm saw here, so I was 
able to do grooves for all the joints on mine. Be careful with the 
adhesive and test thoroughly for leaks with water or something 
beforehand. There's a lot of pressure on it when it's full. I figured 
I was extra safe with the grooves AND some old silicone, and once it 
filled up with water, it started trying to stretch itself open. I had 
to remove all the caulk, which left a nasty film of goo and re-glue 
with better stuff, and I think I still need to reinforce with some 
fiberglass. There's probably a fish tank adhesive that's better for 
it. I haven't needed the inside standoffs he used yet. I hung my board 
from some fishing line hung around a magic marker and looped through 
both top corner holes in the PCB. It stayed pretty well centered.

It wasn't much trouble at all considering it should solve a lot of my 
over-etching problems. I may, however, regret my dimension choice 
though. I wanted to be safe if I did larger stuff, and went with that 
size and a 10" heater. The heater has a "keep filled to this point" 
warning line on it, so it looks like I'll have to fill the whole damn 
thing just to do small stuff. I may grab a smaller heater too and 
figure out how to drop it down low. I've got a dual outlet pump 
connected to two suction mount "bubbler" tubes which will sit 
horizontally at the bottom. It puts off plenty of "fizz", so one 
outlet would have easily done the job. I'm planning to mount the tubes 
to a heavy plate of plastic or something so I can drop them down to 
the bottom (you can't access the insides of this thing very well).

BTW- I have a bad habit of going straight to eBay for everything 
lately, and assume it's the lowest price. I got the pump there and 
then realized I could ride up to PetSmart and get a heater for less 
than on eBay. They had like 6"-12" on clearance for around $6 to <$15. 
Mine was $8 or something. I had to wait a couple weeks for the pump to 
use my tank.

         Try it, you'll like it!
                                     George

---> If you need a pic, I can throw one on my photobucket page.

thanks!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "soffee83" <soffee83@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:25 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Mechanical Etching


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Miller" <jim@j...> wrote:
> any details on your tank setup?

No problem. It's a pretty basic design. I built it after seeing this 
one-

http://www.embeddedtronics.com/etchant.html

On Dec 9, 2005, at 6:44 AM, Mike Young wrote:


FeCl3 is used in water treatment, as in drinking water, to deodorize and
disinfect. All the same, it takes only a few seconds and costs just  
pennies
to neutralize it before dumping.

You'll find that if you don't neutralize it first, it will eat away  
all your sink's connections made of brass like the trap under the sink.
Terry M

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Terry Mickelson" <tmdslca@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Mechanical Etching


> 
> On Dec 9, 2005, at 6:44 AM, Mike Young wrote:
> 
> 
> FeCl3 is used in water treatment, as in drinking water, to deodorize and
> disinfect. All the same, it takes only a few seconds and costs just  
> pennies
> to neutralize it before dumping.
> 
> You'll find that if you don't neutralize it first, it will eat away  
> all your sink's connections made of brass like the trap under the sink.
> Terry M

They are mostly made of plastic, these days.

Leon
---
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