Homebrew PCBs

Does anyone have any specifics on converting a laser printer to print 
the toner directly to the boards?  it would be great for the first 
side, but then how would you ever print the second side perfectly 
aligned??

I suppose someone has tried it but I wouldn't think the printer would 
last very long.  There is a green translucent plastic drum inside the 
toner cartridge. I believe that comes in contact with the paper (or in 
this case, the copper PCB).  If so, this could easily be scratched by 
the pcb material and if that happens it won't work good anymore.

Also, I don't know if a laser printer could accomodate thick material 
such as a PCB board.  My color laser docs even recomend NOT using card 
stock (such as post card stock), the other lasers I have there is no 
warnings about using card stock though.  However, if card stock is at 
the upper limit, that is about .009" thick or less, PCBs I think start 
at around .014" and go up from there, not positive though (I am a 
rookie at this stuff).

It would be cool to hear about any experiments at do such a thing 
though!

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "matt clement" 
<buckeyes1997@y...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any specifics on converting a laser printer to 
print 

> the toner directly to the boards?  it would be great for the first 
> side, but then how would you ever print the second side perfectly 
> aligned??
>

okay after doing some reading, it looks like the laser printers 
spray a charge onto the paper and the toner statically attracts to 
the charged spots.  therefore using a copper sheet will redistribute 
the charge.  looks like a laser printer wont work, but i did see 
some people use an inkjet printer directly on copper.

matt






--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing" 
<lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:
>
> I suppose someone has tried it but I wouldn't think the printer 
would 
> last very long.  There is a green translucent plastic drum inside 
the 
> toner cartridge. I believe that comes in contact with the paper 
(or in 
> this case, the copper PCB).  If so, this could easily be scratched 
by 
> the pcb material and if that happens it won't work good anymore.
> 
> Also, I don't know if a laser printer could accomodate thick 
material 
> such as a PCB board.  My color laser docs even recomend NOT using 
card 
> stock (such as post card stock), the other lasers I have there is 
no 
> warnings about using card stock though.  However, if card stock is 
at 
> the upper limit, that is about .009" thick or less, PCBs I think 
start 
> at around .014" and go up from there, not positive though (I am a 
> rookie at this stuff).
> 
> It would be cool to hear about any experiments at do such a thing 
> though!
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "matt clement" 
> <buckeyes1997@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have any specifics on converting a laser printer to 
> print 
> > the toner directly to the boards?  it would be great for the 
first 
> > side, but then how would you ever print the second side 
perfectly 

> > aligned??
> >
>

matt clement wrote:

>okay after doing some reading, it looks like the laser printers 
>spray a charge onto the paper and the toner statically attracts to 
>the charged spots.  therefore using a copper sheet will redistribute 
>the charge.  looks like a laser printer wont work, but i did see 
>some people use an inkjet printer directly on copper.
>
>matt
>
>  
>


  They depend on the high insulation properties of paper to hold the 
charge, and it's induced by the corona wire.

Yes copper will redistribute the charge.  Instead of inducing a charge, 
directly contact and give about what's needed at the drum. 

Might want to look back at the discussions Stefan and I had last year or 
so on it, probably everything you're likely to hit anytime soon and then 
some..

End conclusions:

  Tape your board edges, and with reasonably good surface you're not 
scratching your drum, or not much.  Cost of doing easy prints is maybe a 
toner cartridge sooner rather than later, $20 now and then.

  My HP6L prints great onto large areas of aluminum foil taped to a 
page.  Get wrinkles from not being attached, and flakes off here and 
there from being too smooth and also flexible.  Way, way better than I 
expected to print on straight metal.  Transfers rather well, metal beats 
the heck out of paper for getting heat to the copper.  Thin copper sheet 
and adhere to board would probably work fairly well for me, but other 
things do well enough and haven't worked on it too much beyond tests.

  With mods for straight board and keeping the right weak charge on the 
copper, it's likely it will work, at least on my 6Ls.  Even straight 
path printers aren't straight, major work required on the path for the 
board.  TT works ok enough, so while it'd be great and I have extra 
printers at hand for it, it's still a very back burner project.

  Heck not too much point reading the old discussions now.  That's where 
mine was at, and I think mine was going as well as anyone's trying it.

  Feed direction alignment is easy enough, do it optically at the same 
point on the board edge, and top and bottom should be aligned well in 
the feed axis.  Other axis would be mechanically aligned, but still 
should be able to get it pretty good too.

Alan

Sb. that left the group (i think) tried using a intermediate drum.
Basically a (silicone rubber i think) drum that contacts the photodrum,  
and below it passes the board. The charge is easier to apply with no  
danger of shorting to the drum itself, and it is soft material. The board  
is sitting on a hotplate so when it passes the drum it is fused.

While this is what i can imagine working, it is too much like printing to  
silicone paper with hugely more work for me.

ST

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 01:40:47 +0100, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

>
>
>   They depend on the high insulation properties of paper to hold the
>
> charge, and it's induced by the corona wire.
>
>
> Yes copper will redistribute the charge.  Instead of inducing a charge,
>
> directly contact and give about what's needed at the drum.
>
>
> Might want to look back at the discussions Stefan and I had last year or
>
> so on it, probably everything you're likely to hit anytime soon and then
>
> some..
>
>
> End conclusions:
>
>
>   Tape your board edges, and with reasonably good surface you're not
>
> scratching your drum, or not much.  Cost of doing easy prints is maybe a
>
> toner cartridge sooner rather than later, $20 now and then.
>
>
>   My HP6L prints great onto large areas of aluminum foil taped to a
>
> page.  Get wrinkles from not being attached, and flakes off here and
>
> there from being too smooth and also flexible.  Way, way better than I
>
> expected to print on straight metal.  Transfers rather well, metal beats
>
> the heck out of paper for getting heat to the copper.  Thin copper sheet
>
> and adhere to board would probably work fairly well for me, but other
>
> things do well enough and haven't worked on it too much beyond tests.
>
>
>   With mods for straight board and keeping the right weak charge on the
>
> copper, it's likely it will work, at least on my 6Ls.  Even straight
>
> path printers aren't straight, major work required on the path for the
>
> board.  TT works ok enough, so while it'd be great and I have extra
>
> printers at hand for it, it's still a very back burner project.
>
>
>   Heck not too much point reading the old discussions now.  That's where
>
> mine was at, and I think mine was going as well as anyone's trying it.
>
>
>   Feed direction alignment is easy enough, do it optically at the same
>
> point on the board edge, and top and bottom should be aligned well in
>
> the feed axis.  Other axis would be mechanically aligned, but still
>
> should be able to get it pretty good too.
>
>
> Alan
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> 
>   They depend on the high insulation properties of paper to hold the 
> charge, and it's induced by the corona wire.
> 
> Yes copper will redistribute the charge.  Instead of inducing a charge, 
> directly contact and give about what's needed at the drum. 
> 
> Might want to look back at the discussions Stefan and I had last
year or 
> so on it, probably everything you're likely to hit anytime soon and
then 
> some..
> 
> End conclusions:
> 
>   Tape your board edges, and with reasonably good surface you're not 
> scratching your drum, or not much.  Cost of doing easy prints is
maybe a 
> toner cartridge sooner rather than later, $20 now and then.
> 
>   My HP6L prints great onto large areas of aluminum foil taped to a 
> page.  Get wrinkles from not being attached, and flakes off here and 
> there from being too smooth and also flexible.  Way, way better than I 
> expected to print on straight metal.  Transfers rather well, metal
beats 
> the heck out of paper for getting heat to the copper.  Thin copper
sheet 
> and adhere to board would probably work fairly well for me, but other 
> things do well enough and haven't worked on it too much beyond tests.
> 
>   With mods for straight board and keeping the right weak charge on the 
> copper, it's likely it will work, at least on my 6Ls.  Even straight 
> path printers aren't straight, major work required on the path for the 
> board.  TT works ok enough, so while it'd be great and I have extra 
> printers at hand for it, it's still a very back burner project.
> 
>   Heck not too much point reading the old discussions now.  That's
where 
> mine was at, and I think mine was going as well as anyone's trying it.
> 
>   Feed direction alignment is easy enough, do it optically at the same 
> point on the board edge, and top and bottom should be aligned well in 
> the feed axis.  Other axis would be mechanically aligned, but still 
> should be able to get it pretty good too.
> 
> Alan

Ok, this is probably a Real Dumb idea, but I'll toss it out, just 
on the chance that it might work.  How about printing directly to 
copper foil, and then gluing the copper foil to a fiberglass 
substrate, and then etching to make your board.  I know that you 
can get Copper foil at some craft stores (I currently have a sheet 
of 2 mil Copper foil.).  Yeah, it sounds like a LOT of work.  And,
it probably won't work.  But, it might be worth a try.

Dave

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:08:50 +0100, Dave <wa4qal@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Ok, this is probably a Real Dumb idea, but I'll toss it out, just
>
> on the chance that it might work.  How about printing directly to
>
> copper foil, and then gluing the copper foil to a fiberglass
>
> substrate, and then etching to make your board.  I know that you
>
> can get Copper foil at some craft stores (I currently have a sheet
>
> of 2 mil Copper foil.).  Yeah, it sounds like a LOT of work.  And,
>
> it probably won't work.  But, it might be worth a try.
>
>
> Dave


You still have the trouble with the shorted charge.
I tried printing on aluminum foil, and it showed only about 50% of the  
toner will be transferred, because it is only "by chance" and not held by  
the charge, which isn't enough to resist etching.

However there is something in that direction, that works now. If you use  
one of those wax printers (e.g. tektronix phaser) it can print directly on  
thin material, and works as etch resist.


ST

Anyone ever seen one of these work.

http://www.novachromeusa.com/Epssublijet.html

I once had to fit some pc's into a small sign shop about 5 years ago and 
they had one of these (may not have been the exact model, but I think it 
was the 12XX, and used cartridges not bulk like the photo)

They used it to print name plates onto little brass door signs ie 
'manager' 'reception'

It really printed a dark waxy black ink, I'm sure it would resist etching.

Has anyone ever seen one of these close up?
I've read they can print on metal surfaces, but do they produce a  
continous layer?

They have "tapes" with resin on them, similar to the wax printers, but a  
little different.
A bit like a dot matrix for photos.

ST

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:53:48 +0100, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Anyone ever seen one of these work.
>
>
> http://www.novachromeusa.com/Epssublijet.html
>
>
> I once had to fit some pc's into a small sign shop about 5 years ago and
>
> they had one of these (may not have been the exact model, but I think it
>
> was the 12XX, and used cartridges not bulk like the photo)
>
>
> They used it to print name plates onto little brass door signs ie
>
> 'manager' 'reception'
>
>
> It really printed a dark waxy black ink, I'm sure it would resist  
> etching.


LOL, i wrote a very similar post before reading yours...


But this one is a sublimation printer. It needs plastic to print on.  
You'll see they sell special cover foil to print on metal, you need to  
stick that on first. This would make it impossible to use as resist.

ST

>However there is something in that direction, that works now. If you use
>one of those wax printers (e.g. tektronix phaser) it can print directly on
>thin material, and works as etch resist.

Have you tried on a PCB?
Cristian

>
>Anyone ever seen one of these work.
>
>http://www.novachromeusa.com/Epssublijet.html
>
>I once had to fit some pc's into a small sign shop about 5 years ago and
>they had one of these (may not have been the exact model, but I think it
>was the 12XX, and used cartridges not bulk like the photo)
>
>They used it to print name plates onto little brass door signs ie
>'manager' 'reception'
>
>It really printed a dark waxy black ink, I'm sure it would resist etching.

As they say, you have to "pre-coat" the metal plate, to allow sublimation.
Will that allow etching?
Will it be removable after etching?
Cristian

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, cristian <cristianbip@b...> wrote:
>
> 
> >
> >Anyone ever seen one of these work.
> >
> >http://www.novachromeusa.com/Epssublijet.html
> >
> >I once had to fit some pc's into a small sign shop about 5 years
ago and
> >they had one of these (may not have been the exact model, but I
think it
> >was the 12XX, and used cartridges not bulk like the photo)
> >
> >They used it to print name plates onto little brass door signs ie
> >'manager' 'reception'
> >
> >It really printed a dark waxy black ink, I'm sure it would resist
etching.
> 
> As they say, you have to "pre-coat" the metal plate, to allow
sublimation.
> Will that allow etching?
> Will it be removable after etching?
> Cristian

Read up on inkjet dye sublimation printing here:
http://www.dyesub.org

The short answer is no. The dye sub ink simply colors the clear
plastic polymer coating. So there is no way to selectively remove the
polymer where there is no dye.

Steve Greenfield

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 07:49:43 +0100, cristian <cristianbip@...>  
wrote:

>
>
>> However there is something in that direction, that works now. If you use
>
>> one of those wax printers (e.g. tektronix phaser) it can print directly  
>> on
>
>> thin material, and works as etch resist.
>
>
> Have you tried on a PCB?
>
> Cristian
>
>


Not me, no, but there was a very, very short page about it somewhere, and  
the guy that did it was/is a member here.
I'm positive it worked, they used in as part of some electronics course or  
something.

But those printers are not cheap.

ST

> >> one of those wax printers (e.g. tektronix phaser) it can print directly
> > Have you tried on a PCB?
> >
> > Cristian
> >
> >
>
>
>Not me, no, but there was a very, very short page about it somewhere, and
>the guy that did it was/is a member here.
>I'm positive it worked, they used in as part of some electronics course or
>something.
>
>But those printers are not cheap.

$400+ is not a fortune, if it works.
Try to remember where to read about that, please.
Cristian

>ST
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:24:48 +0100, cristian <cristianbip@...>  
wrote:

>
>
> $400+ is not a fortune, if it works.
>
> Try to remember where to read about that, please.
>
> Cristian
>


http://www.wwc.edu/academics/departments/engineering/students/classes/engr357/pcbfab/index.htm

Read message 8249 and associated.

ST