Doepfer

Hi

I'm still new to modular (I just got a Doepfer Basis System 2 and a 
bunch of additional modules) although I've been playing synths since 
1978 so I have a lot of questions! The first one is:

Is there a way (or a specific module) to sync modular LFOs to midi time code?

Thanks!
Scott

www.scottfromcanada.com

Hi again Scott!

> Is there a way (or a specific module) to sync modular LFOs to midi time code?


Good question.  This is one of the reasons I waited a few months or so to find a second hand MCV-24, with its tempo synced software LFOs.  I'd also love to hear of any other way of doing it.

Do you need to sync to the SMPTE timecode or simply the MIDI clock that's the MIDI equivalent of Sync24?  The former knows where in the track you are, the latter just dishes out six pulses every sixteenth note.  The MCV-24 deals with the MIDI clock, not timecode, I believe, and seems to do it very well.

All the best,
Zoë.

Hello

Am 26.09.2013 16:10, schrieb Scott Rogers:
> Is there a way (or a specific module) to sync modular LFOs to midi time code?
No.

There are some modules that provide a so called tap tempo function. 
Example: 4ms Quad Pingable LFO 
(http://www.schneidersladen.de/en/4ms-quad-pingable-lfo.html).

Also there are some midi interfaces which provide so called soft-LFOs. 
Which means the software of the Interface creates a voltage on a 
CV-Output, that behaves like an LFO. These soft-LFOs sometimes be 
synchronized with MIDI clock (which is something different from MIDI 
time code!) - like the MCV-24 mentioned by Zoe.

Florian

I'm using a Korg monotribe with Amazing machines Miditribe mod as shown in this video:

http://youtu.be/SDPltf199cA

with the A-160 you can divide the LFO Speed.

Monotribe plus Midimod is about 220 Euro incl.Tax, and it's simple to assemble.

But yeah...monotribe...I know:)

Best

Pete

Scott, 

 I realize this is not really "synced", but if you have any midi to trigger converter and an LFO with Sync In, you can get a similar effect.   It requires a but of fine tuning to get a perfect cycle this way.  Another thing you might try is using a trigger/gate pattern and a Slew Limiter of some type, as your trigger pattern can certainly be synced (again, assuming you have some sort of midi to trigger converter). With the top half of an A-170 Dual Slew you can get something resembling a sine or parabolic. With the bottom half, you can get ramp/saw shapes if your gate is long or short enough.  

What do the rest of you think?  I'm at work so can't test it, but it should work, in theory....  I've done patches like that before, but I too have an MCV-24. 

Nick

Sent from the future

> On Sep 26, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Scott Rogers <scott@scottfromcanada.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I'm still new to modular (I just got a Doepfer Basis System 2 and a 
> bunch of additional modules) although I've been playing synths since 
> 1978 so I have a lot of questions! The first one is:
> 
> Is there a way (or a specific module) to sync modular LFOs to midi time code?
> 
> Thanks!
> Scott
> 
> www.scottfromcanada.com
> 
>

Scott,

I realize this is not really "synced", but if you have any midi to trigger converter and an LFO with Sync In, you can get a similar effect. It requires a but of fine tuning to get a perfect cycle this way. Another thing you might try is using a trigger/gate pattern and a Slew Limiter of some type, as your trigger pattern can certainly be synced (again, assuming you have some sort of midi to trigger converter). With the top half of an A-170 Dual Slew you can get something resembling a sine or parabolic. With the bottom half, you can get ramp/saw shapes if your gate is long or short enough.

What do the rest of you think? I'm at work so can't test it, but it should work, in theory.... I've done patches like that before, but I too have an MCV-24.

Nick

Sent from the future

i'd say 'yes' it does gets expensive fast, but we are not in the Buchla or Serge list...     :-)


 
Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
[Doepfer_a100] group owner


________________________________
 From: Scott Rogers <scott@scottfromcanada.com>
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Sync LFO to Midi time code?
 


  

So you're saying, take a Gate and send it to the slew limiter and use the
output of that like an LFO? Sounds interesting! The only problem is, I
still need something to generate that constant gate in sync with my Sonar
project. 

Sounds like I need another midi module. Then I could take a cable from
the midi through port of the 190-1 (which I normally have listening on
channel 1) to a 190-2 and have the 190-2 listen on a channel 2, and send
just a repeating note on that channel. Then just use the trigger out of
that module and have it retrigger an lfo, or go to the slew limiter. Or
better yet, an ADSR.

Correct?

Still not ideal but could be good enough since I could actually create
the waveform I want (sort of) with an ADSR.

So.... along with all the other modules I want (and looking all this up I
just noticed Doepfer has a Bit Modifier, so there's another one...) I
need the 190-2 and preferably another a-140. 

Has anyone else noticed that this stuff gets really expensive FAST??? 

Thanks!
Scott



At 11:28 AM 9/26/2013, you wrote:

  
>
>Scott, 
>
> I realize this is not really "synced", but if you have
any midi to trigger converter and an LFO with Sync In, you can get a
similar effect.   It requires a but of fine tuning to get a
perfect cycle this way.  Another thing you might try is using a
trigger/gate pattern and a Slew Limiter of some type, as your trigger
pattern can certainly be synced (again, assuming you have some sort of
midi to trigger converter). With the top half of an A-170 Dual Slew you
can get something resembling a sine or parabolic. With the bottom half,
you can get ramp/saw shapes if your gate is long or short enough.  
>
>What do the rest of you think?  I'm at work so can't test it, but it
should work, in theory....  I've done patches like that before, but
I too have an MCV-24. 
>
>Nick
>
>Sent from the future
>
>On Sep 26, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Scott Rogers
<scott@scottfromcanada.com> wrote:
>
>
>  
>>
>>Hi
>>
>>I'm still new to modular (I just got a Doepfer Basis System 2 and a 
>>bunch of additional modules) although I've been playing synths since 
>>1978 so I have a lot of questions! The first one is:
>>
>>Is there a way (or a specific module) to sync modular LFOs to midi time
code?

>>
>>Thanks!
>>Scott
>>
>>www.scottfromcanada.com
>>

Lateral thinking suggestion, based on some of the more off the wall ideas here.

Electro Harmonix 8 Step.

It's a midi sync-able CV step sequencer, with slew rate control.

I can confirm it does make some nice LFO waveforms, and syncs to midi just fine.




andy

I was going to suggest a sequencer too, but was trying to stick with modules Scott probably already has.  

Scott,  you could use the clock out of the A-190-1 thru the 160 to get the division you want, then perhaps use half a 162 and half the 170 to shape your signal.  But keep in mind that these signals (as well as your repeating ADSR idea) would all be 0V-5V, rather than the typical -2.5 to +2.5V or -5 to +5V of a normal LFO.  

Also, using the Reset In on a Doepfer LFO and tuning the rate would only work (easily) in studio settings, as changing tracks and therefore tempo would require retuning of the rate.  


Nick

Sent from the future

> On Sep 26, 2013, at 2:08 PM, andy butler <akbutler@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Lateral thinking suggestion, based on some of the more off the wall ideas here.
> 
> Electro Harmonix 8 Step.
> 
> It's a midi sync-able CV step sequencer, with slew rate control.
> 
> I can confirm it does make some nice LFO waveforms, and syncs to midi just fine.
> 
> andy
> 
>

I was going to suggest a sequencer too, but was trying to stick with modules Scott probably already has.

Scott, you could use the clock out of the A-190-1 thru the 160 to get the division you want, then perhaps use half a 162 and half the 170 to shape your signal. But keep in mind that these signals (as well as your repeating ADSR idea) would all be 0V-5V, rather than the typical -2.5 to +2.5V or -5 to +5V of a normal LFO.

Also, using the Reset In on a Doepfer LFO and tuning the rate would only work (easily) in studio settings, as changing tracks and therefore tempo would require retuning of the rate.


Nick

Sent from the future

When using a DAW, you could always simply draw a low frequency waveform directly into a control change lane such as the mod wheel's one... :)

Oh heck.   I totally forgot to mention Silent Way from Expert Sleepers!  Zoë's comment about the DAW made me remember.  If you are using a DAW and have a multi output AUDIO interface, this could be just the answer.   Incredible bit of software.  

Nick

Sent from the future

> On Sep 26, 2013, at 3:57 PM, Zoë Blade <zoe@bytenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> When using a DAW, you could always simply draw a low frequency waveform directly into a control change lane such as the mod wheel's one... :)
> 
>

To elaborate on this, Zoe is suggesting you assign cv2 of the a-190-1 to mod wheel-see page 13 of the manual. Which would give you one controllable mod source from within your daw, without spending any money. You could even do some nice lfo morphing if you are willing to put the time into drawing it.

If you have money to spend I cannot stress how great expert sleepers silent way is. It uses the audio channels of your audio interface as cv ins and outs. There are a few options.

You can use your current interface. The software encodes the output to be compatible with your modular, you use the inputs/outputs already on your interface. You either need a dc coupled interface (majority aren't-see their site for compatibility list) or to build special floating ring cables, which are very easy to make. Cheap and easy, but you will only get positive cvs-not really a big deal.

Personally I have chosen to go for the es3 module. This uses one of the ADAT/lightpipe outputs of my interface to send 8 channels out to the modular. These 8 outputs are high resolution and are suitable for driving vcos, sending out software generated lfos, software envelopes and software sequences.

There is also the es4 module, which this time uses the SPDIF out of your interface. This gives you 5 outputs, 2 of which are high resolution for driving vcos, the other three for the lfos/envs/etc. I've borrowed a friends one and it will definitely be my next synth purchase.

The software itself is free to try, so you just need to build a cable or two and give it a go. Its got a 15 minute trial, but you can just reopen. If you buy the hardware you will probably want to buy the software licence to go with it, but some of the more important plugins within the suite have no time limit so you don't need to buy everything at once

On 26 Sep 2013, at 21:10, Nicholas Keller <maq163x2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh heck.   I totally forgot to mention Silent Way from Expert Sleepers!  Zoë's comment about the DAW made me remember.  If you are using a DAW and have a multi output AUDIO interface, this could be just the answer.   Incredible bit of software.  
> 
> Nick
> 
> Sent from the future
> 
> On Sep 26, 2013, at 3:57 PM, Zoë Blade <zoe@bytenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>>  
>> When using a DAW, you could always simply draw a low frequency waveform directly into a control change lane such as the mod wheel's one... :)
>> 
> 
>

I've got a motu 24i/o, so I'm good to go with DC compatibility. I got Silent Way as a polyphonic CV option, as each send/return "adapts"and calibrates the software so your 20 year old VCO plays back in tune.  Brilliant!  My friend has the eurorack ES breakout module with orange see-thru faceplate.   I got his MS-20 running with Nuendo in no time at all!  

Good luck Scott!

Nick

Sent from the future

> On Sep 26, 2013, at 4:57 PM, analogmonster@ymail.com wrote:
> 
> To elaborate on this, Zoe is suggesting you assign cv2 of the a-190-1 to mod wheel-see page 13 of the manual. Which would give you one controllable mod source from within your daw, without spending any money. You could even do some nice lfo morphing if you are willing to put the time into drawing it.
> 
> If you have money to spend I cannot stress how great expert sleepers silent way is. It uses the audio channels of your audio interface as cv ins and outs. There are a few options.
> 
> You can use your current interface. The software encodes the output to be compatible with your modular, you use the inputs/outputs already on your interface. You either need a dc coupled interface (majority aren't-see their site for compatibility list) or to build special floating ring cables, which are very easy to make. Cheap and easy, but you will only get positive cvs-not really a big deal.
> 
> Personally I have chosen to go for the es3 module. This uses one of the ADAT/lightpipe outputs of my interface to send 8 channels out to the modular. These 8 outputs are high resolution and are suitable for driving vcos, sending out software generated lfos, software envelopes and software sequences.
> 
> There is also the es4 module, which this time uses the SPDIF out of your interface. This gives you 5 outputs, 2 of which are high resolution for driving vcos, the other three for the lfos/envs/etc. I've borrowed a friends one and it will definitely be my next synth purchase.
> 
> The software itself is free to try, so you just need to build a cable or two and give it a go. Its got a 15 minute trial, but you can just reopen. If you buy the hardware you will probably want to buy the software licence to go with it, but some of the more important plugins within the suite have no time limit so you don't need to buy everything at once
> 
>> On 26 Sep 2013, at 21:10, Nicholas Keller <maq163x2@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> Oh heck.   I totally forgot to mention Silent Way from Expert Sleepers!  Zoë's comment about the DAW made me remember.  If you are using a DAW and have a multi output AUDIO interface, this could be just the answer.   Incredible bit of software.  
>> 
>> Nick
>> 
>> Sent from the future
>> 
>>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 3:57 PM, Zoë Blade <zoe@bytenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> When using a DAW, you could always simply draw a low frequency waveform directly into a control change lane such as the mod wheel's one... :)
>>> 
> 
>

since you've got a motu interface another cv control option is motu's own Volta plugin, which basically does the same thing as expert sleepers, converting your audio interface into a cv interface.




________________________________
 From: Nicholas Keller <maq163x2@gmail.com>
To: "Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> 
Cc: "Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> 
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Sync LFO to Midi time code?
 


  
I've got a motu 24i/o, so I'm good to go with DC compatibility. I got Silent Way as a polyphonic CV option, as each send/return "adapts"and calibrates the software so your 20 year old VCO plays back in tune.  Brilliant!  My friend has the eurorack ES breakout module with orange see-thru faceplate.   I got his MS-20 running with Nuendo in no time at all!   

Good luck Scott!

Nick

Sent from the future

On Sep 26, 2013, at 4:57 PM, analogmonster@ymail.com wrote:


  
>To elaborate on this, Zoe is suggesting you assign cv2 of the a-190-1 to mod wheel-see page 13 of the manual. Which would give you one controllable mod source from within your daw, without spending any money. You could even do some nice lfo morphing if you are willing to put the time into drawing it.
>
>
>If you have money to spend I cannot stress how great expert sleepers silent way is. It uses the audio channels of your audio interface as cv ins and outs. There are a few options.
>
>
>You can use your current interface. The software encodes the output to be compatible with your modular, you use the inputs/outputs already on your interface. You either need a dc coupled interface (majority aren't-see their site for compatibility list) or to build special floating ring cables, which are very easy to make. Cheap and easy, but you will only get positive cvs-not really a big deal.
>
>
>Personally I have chosen to go for the es3 module. This uses one of the ADAT/lightpipe outputs of my interface to send 8 channels out to the modular. These 8 outputs are high resolution and are suitable for driving vcos, sending out software generated lfos, software envelopes and software sequences.
>
>
>There is also the es4 module, which this time uses the SPDIF out of your interface. This gives you 5 outputs, 2 of which are high resolution for driving vcos, the other three for the lfos/envs/etc. I've borrowed a friends one and it will definitely be my next synth purchase.
>
>
>The software itself is free to try, so you just need to build a cable or two and give it a go. Its got a 15 minute trial, but you can just reopen. If you buy the hardware you will probably want to buy the software licence to go with it, but some of the more important plugins within the suite have no time limit so you don't need to buy everything at once
>
>On 26 Sep 2013, at 21:10, Nicholas Keller <maq163x2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>  
>>Oh heck.   I totally forgot to mention Silent Way from Expert Sleepers!  Zoë's comment about the DAW made me remember.  If you are using a DAW and have a multi output AUDIO interface, this could be just the answer.   Incredible bit of software.  
>>
>>
>>Nick
>>
>>Sent from the future
>>
>>On Sep 26, 2013, at 3:57 PM, Zoë Blade <zoe@bytenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  
>>>When using a DAW, you could always simply draw a low frequency waveform directly into a control change lane such as the mod wheel's one... :)

> Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll try a few things and watch a
> few days disappear!
>
> But I think it's odd no one has designed a digital LFO module
> that syncs to midi clock. Maybe I can talk someone into doing
> that. So, no one steal my idea!
>
> Also, great to see all the good and insightful feedback in here!
> That's pretty rare on these internets.
>
> Thanks again. Next question coming soon!
>
> Scott
>
> www.scottfromcanada.com

We think about such a LFO since some time but it's not that easy to realize
(for details refer to the preliminary info about the A-143-6 Synchronized VC
LFOs where we think about a midi sync feature too). In midi the max. clock
you can get is 96 ppm (pulses per measure) or 24 ppq (pulses per quarter).
If you think e.g. about a triangle LFO with a period of one quarter you have
only 24 steps for the full period or only 12 steps for one ramp. For a
triangle LFO with e.g. -3V...+3V swing this corresponds to 0.5V steps which
is a bit too stepped. One has to increase the internal master clock (kind of
a digital PLL) to obtain a higher sampling rate of the LFO output steps
(maybe followed by kind of a slew limiter). And this internal clock has to
be synced to midi. Christian is about to find a solution and has already
kind of a digital PLL introduced in the Dark Time sequencer firmware. Maybe
we can use the experience with the Dark Time code to introduce multiple midi
synced LFOs.  But there is always some delay I think several LFOs with
different periods all in sync with a master clock is a good idea. The master
clock could be a PLLed midi clock (i.e. the multiplied midi clock) - and
consequently be in sync with the midi clock - or an analog (e.g. voltage
controlled) clock.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

> If you think e.g. about a triangle LFO with a period of one quarter you have
> only 24 steps for the full period or only 12 steps for one ramp. For a
> triangle LFO with e.g. -3V...+3V swing this corresponds to 0.5V steps which
> is a bit too stepped.


There's sort of ways around that, but I don't want to spoil the surprise. :)

> > If you think e.g. about a triangle LFO with a period of one
> quarter you have
> > only 24 steps for the full period or only 12 steps for one ramp. For a
> > triangle LFO with e.g. -3V...+3V swing this corresponds to 0.5V
> steps which
> > is a bit too stepped.
>
>
> There's sort of ways around that, but I don't want to spoil the
> surprise. :)

Out main idea is to increase the master clock as much as possible (digital
PLL) and use a voltage controlled slew limiter (with a slew rate that
corresponds to the clock) to smooth the LFO signal. Do you have other or
better ideas ?  Share your experience with us :-)

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Hello

> Out main idea is to increase the master clock as much as possible
> (digital PLL) and use a voltage controlled slew limiter (with a slew
> rate that corresponds to the clock) to smooth the LFO signal. Do you
> have other or better ideas ?  Share your experience with us :-)

I think Zoe talks about the same idea. Someone mentioned it some weeks 
or months ago already.


Florian

Nina and I have figured out a way of making it smoother in a way that's more predictive than changing things after the fact.  It doesn't involve slew limiting.  It's inherently imperfect but for most practical purposes should be the most useful solution.  It's less elegant under the hood, but the outcome should be good.  She's a bit more tight lipped than me though, so I'd have to run it past her before divulging all our secrets. :)

> Nina and I have figured out a way of making it smoother in a way 
> that's more predictive than changing things after the fact.  It 
> doesn't involve slew limiting.  It's inherently imperfect but for 
> most practical purposes should be the most useful solution.  It's 
> less elegant under the hood, but the outcome should be good.  
> She's a bit more tight lipped than me though, so I'd have to run 
> it past her before divulging all our secrets. :)

I see ! Sounds promising.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Scott,

I realize this is not really "synced", but if you have any midi to trigger converter and an LFO with Sync In, you can get a similar effect. It requires a but of fine tuning to get a perfect cycle this way. Another thing you might try is using a trigger/gate pattern and a Slew Limiter of some type, as your trigger pattern can certainly be synced (again, assuming you have some sort of midi to trigger converter). With the top half of an A-170 Dual Slew you can get something resembling a sine or parabolic. With the bottom half, you can get ramp/saw shapes if your gate is long or short enough.

What do the rest of you think? I'm at work so can't test it, but it should work, in theory.... I've done patches like that before, but I too have an MCV-24.

Nick

Sent from the future