Digital BW, The Print

Hello All,

I've been testing Epson's Hot Press Natural and have just updated the "Great Paper Chase" article on the web site with a review (article #5 at the link below).  As Paul has already mentioned, this is a significant paper (I think he said it may be a "game changer") and is certainly a welcome addition to the matte paper lineup.

The bottom line is we finally have a non-OBA matte paper with Dmax equal to the best OBA matte papers: 1.75, same as VFA (this is for K3 MK ink; I haven't tested with Eboni, so it may be a bit different).  And as Paul mentioned, it renders carbon inks a bit cooler than most other "natural" papers, which will be welcomed by those who like more neutral prints (although highlights will be warmish due to the paper color, which you may or may not like - just have to try it and see). For details please see the K3 section of the article.

I've been making a variety of prints with it on my 2400 and am very pleased, it's really pretty stuff.  There's no curl and so far has had only one tiny flake (I was disappointed with Generations Alise Natural because of bad curl and flaking).  
So far, so good - Imahappycamper.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Clayton,

I will add this paper for future trials - even though I don't do much MK printing at present.

Thank you for your examplary service to this printing community.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello All,
> 
> I've been testing Epson's Hot Press Natural and have just updated the "Great Paper Chase" article on the web site with a review (article #5 at the link below).  As Paul has already mentioned, this is a significant paper (I think he said it may be a "game changer") and is certainly a welcome addition to the matte paper lineup.
> 
> The bottom line is we finally have a non-OBA matte paper with Dmax equal to the best OBA matte papers: 1.75, same as VFA (this is for K3 MK ink; I haven't tested with Eboni, so it may be a bit different).  And as Paul mentioned, it renders carbon inks a bit cooler than most other "natural" papers, which will be welcomed by those who like more neutral prints (although highlights will be warmish due to the paper color, which you may or may not like - just have to try it and see). For details please see the K3 section of the article.
> 
> I've been making a variety of prints with it on my 2400 and am very pleased, it's really pretty stuff.  There's no curl and so far has had only one tiny flake (I was disappointed with Generations Alise Natural because of bad curl and flaking).  
> So far, so good - Imahappycamper.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

Sounds like an exciting new prospect.  I'm heading to the paper store this weekend, so it sounds like I need to add this to my shopping list.  I believe I will also be reading your update.  I find your articles to have great insight and really helpful in determining what's out there and what to expect from them.

keithz
http://kzarts.com 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello All,
> 
> I've been testing Epson's Hot Press Natural and have just updated the "Great Paper Chase" article on the web site with a review (article #5 at the link below).  As Paul has already mentioned, this is a significant paper (I think he said it may be a "game changer") and is certainly a welcome addition to the matte paper lineup.
> 
> The bottom line is we finally have a non-OBA matte paper with Dmax equal to the best OBA matte papers: 1.75, same as VFA (this is for K3 MK ink; I haven't tested with Eboni, so it may be a bit different).  And as Paul mentioned, it renders carbon inks a bit cooler than most other "natural" papers, which will be welcomed by those who like more neutral prints (although highlights will be warmish due to the paper color, which you may or may not like - just have to try it and see). For details please see the K3 section of the article.
> 
> I've been making a variety of prints with it on my 2400 and am very pleased, it's really pretty stuff.  There's no curl and so far has had only one tiny flake (I was disappointed with Generations Alise Natural because of bad curl and flaking).  
> So far, so good - Imahappycamper.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

Very nice Clayton!  I just ordered a couple boxes from Atlex.....

-- 
Richard S.
Albany, CA (San Francisco bay area)

My Photography Website
http://www.lightshadowandtone.com

My Flickr River
http://flickriver.com/photos/rich8155/popular-interesting/




On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:38 AM, ClaytonJ <cj@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hello All,
>
> I've been testing Epson's Hot Press Natural and have just updated the
> "Great Paper Chase" article on the web site with a review (article #5 at the
> link below). As Paul has already mentioned, this is a significant paper (I
> think he said it may be a "game changer") and is certainly a welcome
> addition to the matte paper lineup.
>
> The bottom line is we finally have a non-OBA matte paper with Dmax equal to
> the best OBA matte papers: 1.75, same as VFA (this is for K3 MK ink; I
> haven't tested with Eboni, so it may be a bit different). And as Paul
> mentioned, it renders carbon inks a bit cooler than most other "natural"
> papers, which will be welcomed by those who like more neutral prints
> (although highlights will be warmish due to the paper color, which you may
> or may not like - just have to try it and see). For details please see the
> K3 section of the article.
>
> I've been making a variety of prints with it on my 2400 and am very
> pleased, it's really pretty stuff. There's no curl and so far has had only
> one tiny flake (I was disappointed with Generations Alise Natural because of
> bad curl and flaking).
> So far, so good - Imahappycamper.
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Richard,

Is there any way I can entice you to come back to participating in the b/w print exchanges? I remember your gritty contributions from a few years back. Just looked at your website, and would love to see more of your prints.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Sintchak <rich815@...> wrote:

>
> Very nice Clayton!  I just ordered a couple boxes from Atlex.....
> 
> -- 
> Richard S.
> Albany, CA (San Francisco bay area)
> 
> My Photography Website
> http://www.lightshadowandtone.com
> 
> My Flickr River
> http://flickriver.com/photos/rich8155/popular-interesting/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:38 AM, ClaytonJ <cj@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I've been testing Epson's Hot Press Natural and have just updated the
> > "Great Paper Chase" article on the web site with a review (article #5 at the
> > link below). As Paul has already mentioned, this is a significant paper (I
> > think he said it may be a "game changer") and is certainly a welcome
> > addition to the matte paper lineup.
> >
> > The bottom line is we finally have a non-OBA matte paper with Dmax equal to
> > the best OBA matte papers: 1.75, same as VFA (this is for K3 MK ink; I
> > haven't tested with Eboni, so it may be a bit different). And as Paul
> > mentioned, it renders carbon inks a bit cooler than most other "natural"
> > papers, which will be welcomed by those who like more neutral prints
> > (although highlights will be warmish due to the paper color, which you may
> > or may not like - just have to try it and see). For details please see the
> > K3 section of the article.
> >
> > I've been making a variety of prints with it on my 2400 and am very
> > pleased, it's really pretty stuff. There's no curl and so far has had only
> > one tiny flake (I was disappointed with Generations Alise Natural because of
> > bad curl and flaking).
> > So far, so good - Imahappycamper.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> >
> > Info on black and white digital printing at
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sorry, everybody, I've got to ask Clayton something a little off-topic. First I will say, however, that I look forward to reading his updated "Paper Chase" article. I've printed out all his white papers and they're very valuable. I've been wanting to try that new Epson paper too, at first largely due to Paul's favorable comments and now Clayton's.

Clayton, in one of those papers you recommended the Epson 200. When I looked for one, it had been updated to the 220 but it's worked out very well. I use it for simple b/w work when I don't want to use my R1800 - that setup requires .tiff files and with the 200 I can print a variety of document types, even WordPerfect.

However, when it joins that great Printer Brotherhood in the sky, what can I replace it with? Paul suggested the C88, but in one of your writings you said the C86 didn't do well with BO printing (I have one Eboni cart and five cleaning carts in the 200). Do you think the C88 or C88+ would be better? (and by the way, what's the "+" for?)

Thank you!

Paul
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello All,
> 
> I've been testing Epson's Hot Press Natural and have just updated the "Great Paper Chase" article on the web site with a review (article #5 at the link below).  As Paul has already mentioned, this is a significant paper (I think he said it may be a "game changer") and is certainly a welcome addition to the matte paper lineup.
> 
> The bottom line is we finally have a non-OBA matte paper with Dmax equal to the best OBA matte papers: 1.75, same as VFA (this is for K3 MK ink; I haven't tested with Eboni, so it may be a bit different).  And as Paul mentioned, it renders carbon inks a bit cooler than most other "natural" papers, which will be welcomed by those who like more neutral prints (although highlights will be warmish due to the paper color, which you may or may not like - just have to try it and see). For details please see the K3 section of the article.
> 
> I've been making a variety of prints with it on my 2400 and am very pleased, it's really pretty stuff.  There's no curl and so far has had only one tiny flake (I was disappointed with Generations Alise Natural because of bad curl and flaking).  
> So far, so good - Imahappycamper.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

Hello Paul,

>Clayton, in one of those papers you recommended the Epson 200. When I looked for one, it had been updated to the 220 but it's worked out very well... 
> However, when it joins that great Printer Brotherhood in the sky, what can I replace it with? 

Sorry, I don't know of a good replacement.  My 200 died and I've only used the 2400 since then.  Haven't done any Eboni printing in awhile.


>Paul suggested the C88, but in one of your writings you said the C86 didn't do well with BO printing...

That was not from my own experience, but was based on comments here by users who tried it, plus some sample prints that people sent me, which were very poor (coarse dots, bad dither banding, etc).  Back in those days when there was a lot of BO discussion it was generally accepted that the C86 wasn't a good BO machine.


>Do you think the C88 or C88+ would be better? 

I don't know.  Just have to try it and see, or ask here if anyone has one.


>(and by the way, what's the "+" for?)

I don't know that either.  Sorry to not be much help.

I think the days of single channel BO are pretty much gone.  Epson has phased out that feature in their drivers.  The various multi-channel approaches produce better results, so we probably just need to resign ourselves to the QTR/tif route.  The 2kBO approach is a step up (article #3c) and Paul Roark's latest ink sets produce really fine results.  I'm thinking about getting a 280 but have been too busy lately to follow through.  Maybe later this summer.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Thanks for that extensive reply, Clayton. Clearly time has moved on from when I started BO printing and my humble 220! Wish QTR would take other file formats in addition to tif. Maybe I'll ask Tim Harrington if he'd consider that enhancement. Although I'm sure he's heard this before.

Appreciated your common sense and civil contributions in that Aardenburg thread. The discussion seemed to take on a tone quite different from what we're accustomed to here.

Regards,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Paul,
> 
> >Clayton, in one of those papers you recommended the Epson 200. When I looked for one, it had been updated to the 220 but it's worked out very well... 
> > However, when it joins that great Printer Brotherhood in the sky, what can I replace it with? 
> 
> Sorry, I don't know of a good replacement.  My 200 died and I've only used the 2400 since then.  Haven't done any Eboni printing in awhile.
> 
> 
> >Paul suggested the C88, but in one of your writings you said the C86 didn't do well with BO printing...
> 
> That was not from my own experience, but was based on comments here by users who tried it, plus some sample prints that people sent me, which were very poor (coarse dots, bad dither banding, etc).  Back in those days when there was a lot of BO discussion it was generally accepted that the C86 wasn't a good BO machine.
> 
> 
> >Do you think the C88 or C88+ would be better? 
> 
> I don't know.  Just have to try it and see, or ask here if anyone has one.
> 
> 
> >(and by the way, what's the "+" for?)
> 
> I don't know that either.  Sorry to not be much help.
> 
> I think the days of single channel BO are pretty much gone.  Epson has phased out that feature in their drivers.  The various multi-channel approaches produce better results, so we probably just need to resign ourselves to the QTR/tif route.  The 2kBO approach is a step up (article #3c) and Paul Roark's latest ink sets produce really fine results.  I'm thinking about getting a 280 but have been too busy lately to follow through.  Maybe later this summer.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

Paul,

I believe the latest update to QTR allows for JPEG image files.

I don't know much about the newer small-format printers. But Clayton, I was surprised when I bought a new (but old) 4800 printer recently. I found that loaded with OEM MK inks, it allowed for BO printing, even at 2880 dpi. I was thrilled to find this, because my old 4000 (now dead) produced gorgeous BO prints, but only at 1440 dpi.

My 4880 loaded with PK also allows for BO at 2880 dpi. But PK BO printing does not have that "glow" of MK BO.

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> Thanks for that extensive reply, Clayton. Clearly time has moved on from when I started BO printing and my humble 220! Wish QTR would take other file formats in addition to tif. Maybe I'll ask Tim Harrington if he'd consider that enhancement. Although I'm sure he's heard this before.
> 
> Appreciated your common sense and civil contributions in that Aardenburg thread. The discussion seemed to take on a tone quite different from what we're accustomed to here.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Paul
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hello Paul,
> > 
> > >Clayton, in one of those papers you recommended the Epson 200. When I looked for one, it had been updated to the 220 but it's worked out very well... 
> > > However, when it joins that great Printer Brotherhood in the sky, what can I replace it with? 
> > 
> > Sorry, I don't know of a good replacement.  My 200 died and I've only used the 2400 since then.  Haven't done any Eboni printing in awhile.
> > 
> > 
> > >Paul suggested the C88, but in one of your writings you said the C86 didn't do well with BO printing...
> > 
> > That was not from my own experience, but was based on comments here by users who tried it, plus some sample prints that people sent me, which were very poor (coarse dots, bad dither banding, etc).  Back in those days when there was a lot of BO discussion it was generally accepted that the C86 wasn't a good BO machine.
> > 
> > 
> > >Do you think the C88 or C88+ would be better? 
> > 
> > I don't know.  Just have to try it and see, or ask here if anyone has one.
> > 
> > 
> > >(and by the way, what's the "+" for?)
> > 
> > I don't know that either.  Sorry to not be much help.
> > 
> > I think the days of single channel BO are pretty much gone.  Epson has phased out that feature in their drivers.  The various multi-channel approaches produce better results, so we probably just need to resign ourselves to the QTR/tif route.  The 2kBO approach is a step up (article #3c) and Paul Roark's latest ink sets produce really fine results.  I'm thinking about getting a 280 but have been too busy lately to follow through.  Maybe later this summer.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
> >
>

As to an R220 replacement for Black Only, the 1400 is my top recommendation.  Even with my 1400 only some channels and some inks can handle critical printing without banding.

I remember talking to an Epson rep about the 220.  His comment was that they made it *too* good.  It was cannibalizing their more expensive/profitable printers. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hello Richard,

> Very nice Clayton!  I just ordered a couple boxes from Atlex.....

Great.  I hope you'll give us a report.


Regards,
Clayton

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@...> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> 
> I believe the latest update to QTR allows for JPEG image files.

Shilesh,

You're right! The current version, 2.7, does support .jpg. That's great news. I'm using a registered copy 2.6 and so I should be eligible for a free download of 2.7.

Paul

Thanks Paul, I've thought of getting a 1400 some day.

So, is there indeed a BO option in the Epson 1400 driver? Or do you need to use QTR and tif files? (Now also jpg, apparently!)

And by the way, I'm using PSE 6... wouldn't I need a jpg version of that GG-to-QTR.tif file? I guess I could just convert that to jpg. Wait a minute, version 6 of PSE has curves... I needed GG-to-QTR.tif back when I was using PSE 2, which did not do curves. Maybe I don't need that overlay at all, just do the tweaking with Elements' own curves.

Do I understand this correctly?!

Thanks!

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> 
> As to an R220 replacement for Black Only, the 1400 is my top recommendation.  Even with my 1400 only some channels and some inks can handle critical printing without banding.
> 
> I remember talking to an Epson rep about the 220.  His comment was that they made it *too* good.  It was cannibalizing their more expensive/profitable printers. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Sure will.

Having some issues lately with the 1400 Epson driver on my computer.  It
worked fine at first but a few weeks ago all of a sudden the printing
functions and driver functions have slowed to a crawl, as has PS if I have
the 1400 selected as the system's default printer.  Really strange.  Still
works.  Just takes 3 minutes to process each function of the printing
process.  Really frustrating.  I've re-installed the printer driver, changes
USB vords, etc.  Nothing seems to help.

Good thing is QTR works very quickly and with no issues.  Have not hammered
out all the QTR curves yet for the 1400 so the prints look a little
different.  Oh well.

Richard

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:27 PM, ClaytonJ <cj@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hello Richard,
>
>
> > Very nice Clayton! I just ordered a couple boxes from Atlex.....
>
> Great. I hope you'll give us a report.
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>  
>



-- 
Richard S.
Albany, CA (San Francisco bay area)

My Photography Website
http://www.lightshadowandtone.com

My Flickr River
http://flickriver.com/photos/rich8155/popular-interesting/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> ... is there indeed a BO option in the Epson 1400 driver? 
> Or do you need to use QTR ...

You need to use QTR to print black only on a 1400.

(By the way, I print "black only" with HP PK in the Cyan position.  The inkset is set up to print a mostly Eboni-6 inkset, but with MIS LK in the LC spot and HP PK in the C spot -- a bit of a split tone there.)

QTR is an easy printer utility to use.  I use a Photoshop curve to convert my Gray Gamma 2.2 files to the linear space QTR uses, but there are other ways.  Black only printing is actually the easiest way to get into QTR profiling, which is well worth the effort to learn.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks, Paul, it's looking more and more like my next step in quality b/w printing is the 1400 and the ink sets you suggest. Heartening to hear that those Epson reps you talked to said the 220 was "too good" which means there's some life left in mine. No bad signs so far.

I'm very happy with the R1800/3MK approach, in fact my Aardenburg tests for that setup should be due in a couple of weeks. But I feel I might be missing something, hence my interest in the 1400 setup.

So, I do have QTR and use it all the time with the R1800 - happy to hear the current version will do jpgs. But I use the profiles you've made, never made one myself. I need to learn that.

I was a little confused by the term "Black Only". I always took it to mean undiluted Eboni ink. But if that ink is diluted, as in the setup for the 1400, it's still Eboni ink but just not 100% for all carts. Do I have that right? So, in a looser understanding of the term, it's still "Black Only" since the other component is just water, no small amounts of color, even.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "Paul" <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >
> > ... is there indeed a BO option in the Epson 1400 driver? 
> > Or do you need to use QTR ...
> 
> You need to use QTR to print black only on a 1400.
> 
> (By the way, I print "black only" with HP PK in the Cyan position.  The inkset is set up to print a mostly Eboni-6 inkset, but with MIS LK in the LC spot and HP PK in the C spot -- a bit of a split tone there.)
> 
> QTR is an easy printer utility to use.  I use a Photoshop curve to convert my Gray Gamma 2.2 files to the linear space QTR uses, but there are other ways.  Black only printing is actually the easiest way to get into QTR profiling, which is well worth the effort to learn.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> 
> ... a little confused by the term "Black Only". I always took it to mean undiluted Eboni ink.

I tend to use the term "black only" to mean printing with un-diluted black ink -- MK or PK.  The 1800 3-MK is a variant of black only in that usage. 

> But if that ink is diluted, as in the setup for the 1400,

There are a number of different 1400 setups that people use.  I've been using one that uses dilute Eboni -- Eboni-6 from MIS -- as well as one of two other inks.  Last year I just had one HP PK in the C position for "black only" glossy printing.  (See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf )   This year I've added MIS LK for "sepia" tone on glossy paper (using the HP PK as the K in those images).  (See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Carbon-BW-2010.pdf for an early draft -- very incomplete.)

Where there is just carbon and no colors, no matter how dilute, I've been calling it "100% carbon pigment," not "black only."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks very much Paul... actually I've seen both those terms used around here and I wasn't aware of that nuance. Your clarifications help a lot!

I just checked our forum's "files" section thinking I might find some sort of glossary. Most of those files are dated around '03, and it would be great if some sort of updated glossary was there for those of us still on the low end of the learning curve. Maybe there is such a file there and I missed it.

There are so many abbreviations and terms that are in use here, and I must confess I'm hesitant to jump in on a thread and say "hey, what's that mean?" Please understand I'm not putting this on you, you've got enough to do. But perhaps some guardian angel will do that for us!

Paul


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "Paul" <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > ... a little confused by the term "Black Only". I always took it to mean undiluted Eboni ink.
> 
> I tend to use the term "black only" to mean printing with un-diluted black ink -- MK or PK.  The 1800 3-MK is a variant of black only in that usage. 
> 
> > But if that ink is diluted, as in the setup for the 1400,
> 
> There are a number of different 1400 setups that people use.  I've been using one that uses dilute Eboni -- Eboni-6 from MIS -- as well as one of two other inks.  Last year I just had one HP PK in the C position for "black only" glossy printing.  (See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf )   This year I've added MIS LK for "sepia" tone on glossy paper (using the HP PK as the K in those images).  (See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Carbon-BW-2010.pdf for an early draft -- very incomplete.)
> 
> Where there is just carbon and no colors, no matter how dilute, I've been calling it "100% carbon pigment," not "black only."
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi Clayton- is this the Ultrasmooth that is made by Premier Imaging Products for Epson or a brand new paper?

Thanks,

Charles.




________________________________

From: ClaytonJ <cj@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 11:38:53 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson Hot Press Natural

  
Hello All,

I've been testing Epson's Hot Press Natural and have just updated the "Great Paper Chase" article on the web site with a review (article #5 at the link below). As Paul has already mentioned, this is a significant paper (I think he said it may be a "game changer") and is certainly a welcome addition to the matte paper lineup.

The bottom line is we finally have a non-OBA matte paper with Dmax equal to the best OBA matte papers: 1.75, same as VFA (this is for K3 MK ink; I haven't tested with Eboni, so it may be a bit different). And as Paul mentioned, it renders carbon inks a bit cooler than most other "natural" papers, which will be welcomed by those who like more neutral prints (although highlights will be warmish due to the paper color, which you may or may not like - just have to try it and see). For details please see the K3 section of the article.

I've been making a variety of prints with it on my 2400 and am very pleased, it's really pretty stuff. There's no curl and so far has had only one tiny flake (I was disappointed with Generations Alise Natural because of bad curl and flaking). 
So far, so good - Imahappycamper.

Regards,
Clayton

Info on black and white digital printing at 
http://www.cjcom. net/digiprnarts. htm
I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom. net/itrak. htm





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can anyone suggest how this paper will perform in my Epson 2200 with the standard Epson inks?


-- Alan Scharf


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am interested in this paper and the Epson 2200 with Epson inks. I do not see any printer profiles for this paper and the 2200. Has anyone found profiles?

Frank

Clayton -
 
Any thoughts / tests on Epson's Hot Press Bright?

Thanks,  Tom


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clayton:  This is my first posting in this forum.  (Congratulations?) Anyway my first box of this paper arrived yesterday, and early testing confirms for me the excellent qualities you detected.  However, the review on your web site identifies it as a one-sided paper, yet I have seen it advertised for sale from at least one internet seller as two-sided. More to the point, however, is the fact that I dropped a sheet on the floor before printing(!) and when I picked it up I was unable to detect one side from the other!  Is it REALLY one-sided, and if so, how can I detect the printable side?  Many thanks and regards, Jim  (I'm a fan of your web site, as well as of Paul's.)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello All,
> 
> I've been testing Epson's Hot Press Natural and have just updated the "Great Paper Chase" article on the web site with a review (article #5 at the link below).  As Paul has already mentioned, this is a significant paper (I think he said it may be a "game changer") and is certainly a welcome addition to the matte paper lineup.
> 
> The bottom line is we finally have a non-OBA matte paper with Dmax equal to the best OBA matte papers: 1.75, same as VFA (this is for K3 MK ink; I haven't tested with Eboni, so it may be a bit different).  And as Paul mentioned, it renders carbon inks a bit cooler than most other "natural" papers, which will be welcomed by those who like more neutral prints (although highlights will be warmish due to the paper color, which you may or may not like - just have to try it and see). For details please see the K3 section of the article.
> 
> I've been making a variety of prints with it on my 2400 and am very pleased, it's really pretty stuff.  There's no curl and so far has had only one tiny flake (I was disappointed with Generations Alise Natural because of bad curl and flaking).  
> So far, so good - Imahappycamper.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

A quick "tongue test" indicates the Hot Press Natural is, indeed, coated on both sides.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

As for telling which is the print side, I find (as stated in the Epson insert) that the paper flexes or curls less when held with the print side up. It's not always easy to tell, but I hold the sheet with the middle on the side of my hand (like a knife edge or fulcrum) & it will bend less when the print side is up. To try to 'draw ' a picture with ASCII characters:

      <--- long direction --->
   _____________________________________
  /                                    / 
 /                                    /   <-- the sheet
/____________________________________/
                 |  }
                 | / <---- my hand
                 |/


If the print side is down, then the sheet will bend more.

I realize that, being coated 2 sides, it may be printable either side. Still, it does curl or bend more when one side is up.

Jon B

"Jon" <pixionate@...> wrote:
>
> As for telling which is the print side, I find (as stated in the Epson insert) that the paper flexes or curls less when held with the print side up. ...

It's probably the same thing, but I find the pack I have is slightly concave toward the printable side.  Often paper companies coat the back side just so stop excessive curl.  I have not printed on the "back" side to see if or how well it works.  I, frankly, don't have any reason to print on both sides of the paper.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

My issue, of course, is not one of concern for printing on BOTH sides but on only ONE -- but which one?  Especially after I've cut my sheet into halves or quarters (for test purposes or smaller prints).  I guess maintaining original orientation in the stack is very important.  Or is it?    

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "Jon" <pixionate@> wrote:
> >
> > As for telling which is the print side, I find (as stated in the Epson insert) that the paper flexes or curls less when held with the print side up. ...
> 
> It's probably the same thing, but I find the pack I have is slightly concave toward the printable side.  Often paper companies coat the back side just so stop excessive curl.  I have not printed on the "back" side to see if or how well it works.  I, frankly, don't have any reason to print on both sides of the paper.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Being double-sided would help reduce the cost of test prints.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can also do what a lot of artists do -- as you cut your paper into 
smaller pieces, mark the back of each piece with an x -- use a soft pencil, 
don't put pressure on it (you don't want it to make an indentation on the 
front of your paper). I usually mark mine in the upper right corner for 
consistency - I always know where to look.  Then it doesn't matter if you 
mix up the paper in the stack.

darlene

Darlene Lyon Kruse
Photographer / Mixed Media Artist
Ashland, Oregon USA
541-482-5873
www.darlene-lyon-kruse-studios.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ascherjim" <ascherjim@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 7:22 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Hot Press Natural


My issue, of course, is not one of concern for printing on BOTH sides but on 
only ONE -- but which one?  Especially after I've cut my sheet into halves 
or quarters (for test purposes or smaller prints).  I guess maintaining 
original orientation in the stack is very important.  Or is it?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> "Jon" <pixionate@> wrote:
> >
> > As for telling which is the print side, I find (as stated in the Epson 
> > insert) that the paper flexes or curls less when held with the print 
> > side up. ...
>
> It's probably the same thing, but I find the pack I have is slightly 
> concave toward the printable side.  Often paper companies coat the back 
> side just so stop excessive curl.  I have not printed on the "back" side 
> to see if or how well it works.  I, frankly, don't have any reason to 
> print on both sides of the paper.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>




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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> 
> A quick "tongue test" indicates the Hot Press Natural is, indeed, coated on both sides.  
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>


Tongue test? That sounds kinky ;)

AnnMarie
www.annmarietornabene.net

Once you cut the paper (as I also have done) it's even easier to see the curl (as described below) on the smaller sheet. You can try to maintain the cut sheets all with the same orientation, but I've found that to be a level of concentration which often eludes me.

As Darlene also wrote, a light mark on the backside can be used. I do that at times.

Jon


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ascherjim" <ascherjim@...> wrote:

>
> My issue, of course, is not one of concern for printing on BOTH sides but on only ONE -- but which one?  Especially after I've cut my sheet into halves or quarters (for test purposes or smaller prints).  I guess maintaining original orientation in the stack is very important.  Or is it?    
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > "Jon" <pixionate@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> As for telling which is the print side, I find (as stated in the Epson insert) that the paper flexes or curls less when held with the print side up. It's not always easy to tell, but I hold the sheet with the middle on the side of my hand (like a knife edge or fulcrum) & it will bend less when the print side is up. To try to 'draw ' a picture with ASCII characters:
> 
>       <--- long direction --->
>    _____________________________________
>   /                                    / 
>  /                                    /   <-- the sheet
> /____________________________________/
>                  |  }
>                  | / <---- my hand
>                  |/
> 
> 
> If the print side is down, then the sheet will bend more.
> 
> I realize that, being coated 2 sides, it may be printable either side. Still, it does curl or bend more when one side is up.
> 
> Jon B
>

Hello Charles and Jim,

Sorry for my late reply, I've been out of town for a week.


>...is this the Ultrasmooth that is made by Premier Imaging Products 
>for Epson or a brand new paper?

I was wondering who's making it, but I have no idea.  My impression is that, because of it's dmax, it's something new rather than just a repackaging of something else.  Seems to me that if some existing natural paper had that dmax we'd surely have heard of it.  



--- Jim wrote:
>This is my first posting in this forum. (Congratulations?) Anyway my
first box of this paper arrived yesterday, and early testing confirms for me the excellent qualities you detected. However, the review on your web site identifies it as a one-sided paper, yet I have seen it advertised for sale from at least one internet seller as two-sided. More to the point, however, is the fact that I dropped a sheet on the floor before printing(!) and when I picked it up I was unable to detect one side from the other! Is it REALLY one-sided, and
if so, how can I detect the printable side? Many thanks and regards, Jim (I'm a fan of your web site, as well as of Paul's.)
>>>>>>>>>>

I didn't think to test for 2-sided, as it isn't mention in the advertising (that I saw) and I recall that something in the box said "printing side up".  But that would be a nice plus if it is.  I've found 2-sided papers to have an economic benefit because of reusing test prints.  It may be just an anti curl coating, but I'll do some tests to see if there's a difference in results and will update the review.  Thanks for the tip.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Hello Tom,

>Any thoughts / tests on Epson's Hot Press Bright?

I didn't test it because I had no personal interest in using it and didn't want to spend the money on a box (I'll be happy to review it if someone will send me two sheets).  These are just assumptions, but I expect it will have similar high dmax, will work well with K3 inks, and probably is a really nice looking paper.

For BW/OBA paper I'm so happy with VFA that I hesitate to switch, especially to a paper for which we have no ink fade test results yet.  So my personal interest was only for the natural version.  My favorite natural paper has been Innova's Soft Textured Art - really beautiful stuff with K3 inks but has lower dmax.  I'm just getting to know it, but I expect that HPN will replace STA in my arsenal.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

My last post didn't come out as it should have, so I'm trying again to show (using standard text characters) how I determine which side bends more. Let's see if this one comes out....


      <--- long direction --->
    _____________________________________
   /                                    / 
  /                                    /   <-- the sheet
 /____________________________________/
                  |  }
                  | / <---- my hand
                  |/

One may support the paper by holding it at the edges w/one's fingers:

      <--- long direction --->
                        <-- hold at * w/fingertip
    __________________*___________________
   /                 /                   / 
  /                 /                   /   <-- the sheet
 /_________________/___________________/
                  *                  
                  | <-- hold at * w/fingertip 
                  |


I previewed this & it looked OK. We'll see how good the preview is once I actually submit this as a post.

If the print side is down, then the sheet will bend more. The difference between the bend may be small, but it is noticeable. 
 
I realize that, being coated 2 sides, it may be printable either side. Still, it does curl or bend more when one side is up.

Jon

On Apr 19, 2010, at 4:59 PM, Jon wrote:

> I realize that, being coated 2 sides, it may be printable either  
> side. Still, it does curl or bend more when one side is up.

All paper, even sheets, came off a master roll, so it has a natural  
flex built-in,  in the direction that it was flexed on the roll.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon wrote:
>My last post didn't come out as it should have, so I'm trying again 
>to show (using standard text characters) how I determine which side 
>bends more. Let's see if this one comes out....

It looks OK in a monospaced font.

-- 
Hans Rijnbout
Utrecht, Netherlands

C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
>
> All paper, even sheets, came off a master roll, so it has a natural  
> flex built-in,  in the direction that it was flexed on the roll.
> 

The Hot Press papers are supposedly "mould made."  These appear to use a drum in the processing, but may not come off the usual large rolls.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I have received some really nice looking "Arches IRIS size pure white" 
paper. It is 300gsm. 100% cotton. Made in France at Arches. 140 # Cold 
Press Paper.

"Each sheet of paper is treated with ink receptive coating ... ".

It looks like Arches Pure White watercolor paper with Arches watermarks. 
Two sides deckle edges.

Anyone has experience with this paper?


Thanks,
- Phil

Pacific New Media schreef:
> I have received some really nice looking "Arches IRIS size pure white" 
> paper. It is 300gsm. 100% cotton. Made in France at Arches. 140 # Cold 
> Press Paper.
> 
> "Each sheet of paper is treated with ink receptive coating ... ".
> 
> It looks like Arches Pure White watercolor paper with Arches watermarks. 
> Two sides deckle edges.
> 
> Anyone has experience with this paper?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> - Phil
> 

The few left over IRIS owners will have experience with it, it wasn't 
developed for Epson, Canon or HP printers.
It may even be a coating that is only usable with dye inks.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Phil,
   I am interested to learn more.  I have a stash of UNCOATED Arches 140# Cold Press in the size of 34 x 46".  It was sold to me as 'natural' but it looks more like the Cold Press Bright White and when I print on it I use an Arches Bright White custom profile.  Officially I believe the Iris size is (was?) 35 x 46.75".  From my art school days I remember these large size watercolor papers were called elephant, double elephant and triple elephant (something like 40 x 60").  The sizes varied according to the manufacturer.  
  Would you be willing to share your source or supplier of this large size Arches coated paper?

Best,
BertGF




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Pacific New Media <panmedia@...> wrote:

>
> I have received some really nice looking "Arches IRIS size pure white" 
> paper. It is 300gsm. 100% cotton. Made in France at Arches. 140 # Cold 
> Press Paper.
> 
> "Each sheet of paper is treated with ink receptive coating ... ".
> 
> It looks like Arches Pure White watercolor paper with Arches watermarks. 
> Two sides deckle edges.
> 
> Anyone has experience with this paper?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> - Phil
>

Bert,
The paper size is listed as 32"x47" but it is not exactly that size. It 
should be sized for original IRIS printer. If you need this paper please 
contact me privately. I originally thought about converting them to some 
smaller, more common sizes. Now looking at those fine art papers with 
nice deckles I think the best use is to have them hand ripped instead of 
machine cut.

Thanks,
Phil

Bert wrote:

>
> Phil,
> I am interested to learn more. I have a stash of UNCOATED Arches 140# 
> Cold Press in the size of 34 x 46". It was sold to me as 'natural' but 
> it looks more like the Cold Press Bright White and when I print on it 
> I use an Arches Bright White custom profile. Officially I believe the 
> Iris size is (was?) 35 x 46.75". From my art school days I remember 
> these large size watercolor papers were called elephant, double 
> elephant and triple elephant (something like 40 x 60"). The sizes 
> varied according to the manufacturer.
> Would you be willing to share your source or supplier of this large 
> size Arches coated paper?
>
> Best,
> BertGF
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>, Pacific New 
> Media <panmedia@...> wrote:
> >
> > I have received some really nice looking "Arches IRIS size pure white"
> > paper. It is 300gsm. 100% cotton. Made in France at Arches. 140 # Cold
> > Press Paper.
> >
> > "Each sheet of paper is treated with ink receptive coating ... ".
> >
> > It looks like Arches Pure White watercolor paper with Arches 
> watermarks.
> > Two sides deckle edges.
> >
> > Anyone has experience with this paper?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > - Phil
> >
>
>

Hey, I am wondering if anyone has found inconsistency from box to box regarding the printable side of Epson Hot Press Natural.  I printed a box where the smoothest side was clearly marked on the bag as the printable side, and I got used to feeling to make sure I was printing the smoother side.  I now have box where the slightly more textured side is marked printable.

It appears to me that this paper is coated both sides...hence the confusion.  Where there is coating only on ones side, I find a moist finger or lip can easily tell the printable side.  In the case of the Epson Hot Press...the moist test works on both sides.

I am wondering if I might have a wrongly packed box...  Also wondering if there are multiple coats on one side and few coats on the other...assuming there is a coating on both sides.

Thanks for any response to this.

Phil

Lay it on a table and look for (slight) curl.  Like photo papers, it 
usually curls to the coated (emulsion??) side.

Seth

I recently bought a box of 8.5X11 Epson HPN to experiment with and read some reviews before printing on it. The reviews noted that the surface is very fragile and suggestions were to use a protective spray after printing. Is this still the experience of group members?

I made some prints using the Eboni 6 inks in my 1430 via QTR and Paul Roark's recommended settings of the HPN-BO and the HPN-Eb6 profiles with an 80-40-0 split tone and liked the results a lot.

Mike Brubaker

I haven’t found that to be the case. I’ve been printing on it frequently and I think it’s more durable than most coated fine art papers. Spraying will help to protect any print. 

From: mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2016 8:51 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson Hot Press Natural




I recently bought a box of 8.5X11 Epson HPN to experiment with and read some reviews before printing on it. The reviews noted that the surface is very fragile and suggestions were to use a protective spray after printing.  Is this still the experience of group members?




I made some prints using the Eboni 6 inks in my 1430 via QTR and Paul Roark's recommended settings of the HPN-BO and the HPN-Eb6 profiles with an 80-40-0 split tone and liked the results a lot.




Mike Brubaker

Epson Hot Press papers (Natural and Bright) are actually my favourite
papers. They are nice, give high Dmax with carbon matte inks (I get 1.70
with Eboni 1.0) with very smart tones, and the prints do not seem to be
fragile at all. Like all matte papers, if you put your fingers on dark
zones you might get some traces, but I noticed that Hot Press prints are
far less sensitive to scratches than Hahnem�hle papers (Photorag or
Bamboo). In fact, I do not use any protection. 

The only drawback of Hot Press papers is that they are difficult to find
in Europe at a good price. As off today, I've been buying them directly
in the USA... 

My2c 

---

Sylvain M.

Le 2016-06-26 14:51, brubaker_family@...
[DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] a �crit : 

> I recently bought a box of 8.5X11 Epson HPN to experiment with and read some reviews before printing on it. The reviews noted that the surface is very fragile and suggestions were to use a protective spray after printing. Is this still the experience of group members? 
> 
> I made some prints using the Eboni 6 inks in my 1430 via QTR and Paul Roark's recommended settings of the HPN-BO and the HPN-Eb6 profiles with an 80-40-0 split tone and liked the results a lot. 
> 
> Mike Brubaker 
> 
> 
 

Links:
------
[1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
[2] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
[3]
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZ3N0OHJvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Nzg1ODM2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQ2Njk0NTUwMA--
[4]
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/members/all;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbWM3dm0zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Nzg1ODM2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzE0NjY5NDU1MDA-
[5]
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOGI4dTI1BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Nzg1ODM2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDY2OTQ1NTAw
[6] https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html
[7] https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Thanks to those who replied to my question.  Yesterday I took one of my HPN prints to a camera group Coffee & Critique session and passed it around.  It came back to me with no evidence of flaking.  So perhaps the review reports were of early batches and those problems have been worked out now.

Has anyone tried printing on it with the Claria dye inks?

Mike Brubaker

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/27/16, 'Sylvain M.' sylvain@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Hot Press Natural
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Monday, June 27, 2016, 2:57 AM
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
     
       
       
       
 Epson Hot Press papers (Natural and Bright) are
 actually my favourite papers. They are nice, give high Dmax
 with carbon matte inks (I get 1.70 with Eboni 1.0) with very
 smart tones, and the prints do not seem to be fragile at
 all. Like all matte papers, if you put your fingers on dark
 zones you might get some traces, but I noticed that Hot
 Press prints are far less sensitive to scratches than
 Hahnemühle papers (Photorag or Bamboo). In fact, I do not
 use any protection.
 The only drawback of Hot Press papers is that they are
 difficult to find in Europe at a good price. As off today,
 I've been buying them directly in the USA...
 My2c
  
 ---
 
 Sylvain M.
 
 
  
 Le 2016-06-26 14:51, brubaker_family@...
 [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] a écrit :
  
 
  
 I recently bought a box of 8.5X11 Epson HPN to
 experiment with and read some reviews before printing on it.
 The reviews noted that the surface is very fragile and
 suggestions were to use a protective spray after printing.
  Is this still the experience of group members?
  
 I made some prints using the Eboni 6 inks in my
 1430 via QTR and Paul Roark's recommended settings of
 the HPN-BO and the HPN-Eb6 profiles with an 80-40-0 split
 tone and liked the results a lot.
  
 Mike Brubaker
  
  
  
  
  
 
 
 
 
     
      
 
     
     
 
 
 
 #yiv1752200482 #yiv1752200482 --