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Bad News About Alise Natural

Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-07 by ClaytonJ

Bad News About Alise Natural - it flakes badly.  Just a little while ago I began to sleeve up six prints to be mailed in the morning as the first installment of prints for a family reunion portrait job.  Three of the prints had from one to three tiny flakes, all in black or nearly black areas. 

So I got out my spotting pens (the Faber-Castell gray scale pigment ink artists pens) but found to my dismay that the paper wouldn't accept the ink.  Instead of going into the white spot, the ink got pulled into the edges around the spot, leaving a darker ring around it and making it worse.  Three prints ruined.

I am sorely disappointed because I really like this paper, but I can't afford to lose 50% of my prints to flakes.  Not only that, but I'm concerned what might happen to the others after they're delivered to the customer.  In hindsight, it seems foolish to do a commercial job and stake my reputation with an unproven paper, but I just assumed it would be fine.  A good lesson about assumptions.   

I am now beginning to reprint all six (and will do the rest of the job) on VFA, my tried and true workhorse paper.  It doesn't flake much (maybe 1 in 20 prints), and when it does, the spotting pens work beautifully.  Lesson learned.  

Good thing I only bought one box of Alise.  It's less expensive, but maybe this is a case of "you get what you pay for".

If anyone else is using this paper, please post your experiences here and let's see if other flaking reports come in (or anything else).  We also need to find out if other spotting methods will work.

Note: these prints were made using K3 inks.  Maybe other inks will be better...just a thought

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-07 by CorrPro96@aol.com

Clayton:
 
Very interesting post. I'm using Alise on my Z3100, getting gorgeous B/W  
prints, with no flake problems whatsoever. It is the only machine I have used 
 this paper with.
 
I will make some prints on my 4880 to see what happens, but the Hp is my  
printer of choice for B/W, aside from my 7600 with SE K7.
 
Did you let the prints dry long enough before sleeving them?
 
Rich
_www.rmassiephotography.com_ (http://www.rmassiephotography.com) 
 
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-07 by pr_roark

"ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:
>
> Bad News About Alise Natural - it flakes badly. ...

I've found Premier Imaging to be rather responsive to issues like that.  There are several known causes of flaking that are variables within their control.

Frankly, from my perspective, aside from it being able to match or beat the HPR dmax, Alise is not that different from others, including their 325 gsm Fine Art (no OBAs) that I'm very fond of.  The PA325 has a dmax of 1.70 v. 1.75 for AliseN on my 7800 with Eboni and QTR.  With a 50-50 profile of Eboni and HP-PK, the PA325 actually has a lower delta-B.  The AliseN paper base is a bit whiter, but we're only talking about a difference of about a Lab B difference of about 0.25 on average.  The PA325 is about 20% more expensive, but for what it's worth, you get a paper that is a bit thicker than the 16 mil Alise (which I get head strikes on in the 7800), and the PA325 is coated on both sides.  So, it may be that the Premier Art Fine Art Smooth 325 stays at or near the top of my list.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-07 by ClaytonJ

Hello Rich,

>Very interesting post. I'm using Alise on my Z3100, getting gorgeous B/W  prints, with no flake problems whatsoever. 

I'm glad to hear that.  I wonder if it's the K3 inks, or maybe I just got a bad batch.  I'm real disappointed because I really like the look of this paper.  I hope this gets solved.


> Did you let the prints dry long enough before sleeving them?

Yes, some for 4 or 5 days.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-07 by ClaytonJ

Hello Paul,

>I've found Premier Imaging to be rather responsive to issues like that.  There are several known causes of flaking that are variables within their control.

That's good to hear.  Do you think I should contact them? 


> Frankly, from my perspective, aside from it being able to match or beat the HPR dmax, Alise is not that different from others...

The high dmax is important to me, but there's also something subtle  that I'm seeing in these prints that is unique in my experience.  I've tried several of the other PA papers and none of them excited me like this one.  I would love to see this get fixed.

I'm also a bit distressed because the spotting pens won't work with it.  Unless some other spotting method works, if a print has a flake it's a goner.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-07 by scott_now_coming

The flaking is probably from dust settling onto the paper before being printed.

The ink is sprayed onto the dust and when the dust falls off the print, a "white spot" is left.

Do you brush off your paper before printing?

I use a large horse hair drafting brush to dust off my paper before printing.(Only matte papers!)

I rarely have any problems. 

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> Hello Paul,
> 
> >I've found Premier Imaging to be rather responsive to issues like that.  There are several known causes of flaking that are variables within their control.
> 
> That's good to hear.  Do you think I should contact them? 
> 
> 
> > Frankly, from my perspective, aside from it being able to match or beat the HPR dmax, Alise is not that different from others...
> 
> The high dmax is important to me, but there's also something subtle  that I'm seeing in these prints that is unique in my experience.  I've tried several of the other PA papers and none of them excited me like this one.  I would love to see this get fixed.
> 
> I'm also a bit distressed because the spotting pens won't work with it.  Unless some other spotting method works, if a print has a flake it's a goner.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-07 by ClaytonJ

Hello Scott,

> The flaking is probably from dust settling onto the paper before being printed.
> Do you brush off your paper before printing?

Yes, very carefully, as I am well aware of that possibility.  It has been my practice for my past 8 years of digital printing.  I also use dust covers and regularly vacuum around the printer area and even the insides of the printer (what parts I can reach with the vacuum hose).


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-07 by ClaytonJ

Another thought - this paper has a strong curl and I am gently reverse bending it to flatten it before feeding to the printer.  Maybe this bending is causing the flaking...


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-07 by Michael King

Clayton,

Also are you using a "fine art" paper path in the printer or regular paper
path?
Too much curve in the paper path can damage the surface as well.

Mike
2010/1/7 ClaytonJ <cj@...>

>
>
>
>
> Another thought - this paper has a strong curl and I am gently reverse
> bending it to flatten it before feeding to the printer. Maybe this bending
> is causing the flaking...
>
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-07 by tboleyyh

Clayton, the tests I've had laying around here for some time seem to me to a bit more robust than HPR's coating, so I'd pursue these other mentioned issues and see what helps. I wouldn't give up on the stuff yet.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> Another thought - this paper has a strong curl and I am gently reverse bending it to flatten it before feeding to the printer.  Maybe this bending is causing the flaking...
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-08 by john

and flaking can occur if you don't linearize the media well and end up laying down too much ink, especially in the darkest shadow zones. Many of us, including myself, have been spoiled in the way that Photorag, and Hanhemuhle in general can absorb lots of black ink while most papers of similar surface can not, then we blame it on the coating of the other surfaces. Innova and Crane media also require more limiting with most printers for monochrome to achieve optimum dmax without flaking, reversing of dmax, or mottling. 

This is a factor that one can appreciate with the well thought out Hahnemuhle ink receptor coatings. And, they deserve credit for that quality. Personally I haven't run across any coatings that have performed as well in that regard overall.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Clayton, the tests I've had laying around here for some time seem to me to a bit more robust than HPR's coating, so I'd pursue these other mentioned issues and see what helps. I wouldn't give up on the stuff yet.
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Another thought - this paper has a strong curl and I am gently reverse bending it to flatten it before feeding to the printer.  Maybe this bending is causing the flaking...
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
> >
>

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-08 by john

and flaking can occur if you don't linearize the media well and end up laying down too much ink, especially in the darkest shadow zones. Many of us, including myself, have been spoiled in the way that Photorag, and Hanhemuhle in general can absorb lots of black ink while most papers of similar surface can not, then we blame it on the coating of the other surfaces. Innova and Crane media also require more limiting with most printers for monochrome to achieve optimum dmax without flaking, reversing of dmax, or mottling. 

This is a factor that one can appreciate with the well thought out Hahnemuhle ink receptor coatings. And, they deserve credit for that quality. Personally I haven't run across any coatings that have performed as well in that regard overall.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Clayton, the tests I've had laying around here for some time seem to me to a bit more robust than HPR's coating, so I'd pursue these other mentioned issues and see what helps. I wouldn't give up on the stuff yet.
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Another thought - this paper has a strong curl and I am gently reverse bending it to flatten it before feeding to the printer.  Maybe this bending is causing the flaking...
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
> >
>

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-08 by paulmwhiting

Scott et al,

I use PremierArt Fine Art Smooth HP, and used to have quite a few small white spots due to dust I presume. So now I also use a drafting brush, and follow that with a blast of compressed air. This has minimized dust problems but I still get a few - however they're easy to spot with some SpotTone from my darkroom days. But I'll take a cue from Clayton and try vacuuming around the printer and also covering is with a dust cover when not in use.

Did try Alise but my main problem there was feeding in my R1800, even when feeding through the single-sheet slot. Tried cleaning the rollers diligently but most of the time the paper would shoot right through without printing. And I'm pretty happy with the DMax I get with the Fine Art Smooth HP - which was the main reason I wanted to try the Alise.

My 0.02,

Pau

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> The flaking is probably from dust settling onto the paper before being printed.
> 
> The ink is sprayed onto the dust and when the dust falls off the print, a "white spot" is left.
> 
> Do you brush off your paper before printing?
> 
> I use a large horse hair drafting brush to dust off my paper before printing.(Only matte papers!)
> 
> I rarely have any problems. 
> 
> Scott
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Hello Paul,
> > 
> > >I've found Premier Imaging to be rather responsive to issues like that.  There are several known causes of flaking that are variables within their control.
> > 
> > That's good to hear.  Do you think I should contact them? 
> > 
> > 
> > > Frankly, from my perspective, aside from it being able to match or beat the HPR dmax, Alise is not that different from others...
> > 
> > The high dmax is important to me, but there's also something subtle  that I'm seeing in these prints that is unique in my experience.  I've tried several of the other PA papers and none of them excited me like this one.  I would love to see this get fixed.
> > 
> > I'm also a bit distressed because the spotting pens won't work with it.  Unless some other spotting method works, if a print has a flake it's a goner.
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
> >
>

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-08 by ClaytonJ

Hello Paul,

>...I still get a few - however they're easy to spot with some SpotTone from my darkroom days. 

I still have some SpotTone, never thought to try it on inkjet papers.  I'll give it a try, thanks for the tip.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-08 by pr_roark

Clayton,

One of the aspects of the Alise Museum-Natural that appears to appeal to both of us is the relatively low Lab B of the paper.  That is, it is a relatively neutral or "bright" natural paper as opposed to the usually more creamy look of non-OBA papers. 

Have you tried the Red River Aurora Natural?  It's even more neutral. It may have the lowest Lab B of any of the non-brightened papers.  

With QTR I'm getting a dmax of 1.65 with the Aurora, which is not spectacular, but good enough that only those on this list would notice the difference.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-08 by ClaytonJ

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
>
> Remember that Spotone is a dye. As it ages, it turns blue.

Ahh, didn't know that, thanks very much.  I'll stick with the spotting pens, they are pigment inks.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-08 by ClaytonJ

Hello Paul,

>One of the aspects of the Alise Museum-Natural that appears to appeal to both of us is the relatively low Lab B of the paper.  That is, it is a relatively neutral or "bright" natural paper as opposed to the usually more creamy look of non-OBA papers. 

Yes, I like that very much, but the main thing for me was the dmax.  Finding a non-OBA paper with dmax over 1.7 was a major big deal.  All the rest was icing on the cake.  

 

>Have you tried the Red River Aurora Natural?  It's even more neutral. It may have the lowest Lab B of any of the non-brightened papers.  

No, but I'll get some and test it.  My primary non-OBA paper has been Innova's Soft Textured Art with Dmax 1.62.  Very pretty paper (responds beautifully to K3) but is quite warm and thus more limited.  Aurora's 1.65 is good and a whiter paper would make it more universal.


> With QTR I'm getting a dmax of 1.65 with the Aurora, which is not spectacular, but good enough that only those on this list would notice the difference.

Maybe it should be classified as a disease <g>.  

After your previous post about PA papers I went back through my past test prints and realized I never tested the PA325.  The 1.70 dmax sounds real good so I ordered some.  Hopefully it won't have the curl that Alise has and will allow flake spotting.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Alise Natural Curl and Red River Aurora...comments on papers

2010-01-08 by KentB

I had ordered some of the Alise Natural in November...I ultimately returned it to Premier, due to the curl.  Atlex was really good about handling the return.  I had major head strike issues even though I was using a 4880 with the highest vacuum setting. Premier said they were aware of the curl and were dealing with it.  Yesterday, I spoke with Atlex...and they assured me that Premier had corrected the curl.  I cannot validate this, but I plan to order a bit again.

I concur with Paul Roark...after I sent back the Alise...I ordered a box of Red River Aurora Natural.  After a bit of extra profiling in QTR...I am getting very acceptable dmax.  I did have to add a more significant Black boost to my profile for the Aurora...but it appears to handle a good load of ink.  After first emerging from the printer, the maximum black looks a bit over inked, but upon drying...it is visually just as black as the Alise.  Of course this is not a scientific appraissal, but the Aurora prints are quite lovely...I would be proud to hang them in a show.  

Price is reasonable on the Aurora and it has the added benefit of being two sided.  It lays out dead flat.

I compared identical images of Alise and the Red River Aurora.  Both are nice...I cannot honestly say Alise is significantly nicer.  I would have to think twice about paying twice the price for Alise.  The differences are not all that great IMHO.  Perhaps for some images needing a wee bit more of that special something....but for a lot of images..I am not convinced that the chase for dmax is the holy grail.

I have to believe that a lot of the new papers are marketed with hype.  Alise has certainly not been immune to the hype about dmax.
Have you noticed how Epson Exhibition Fibre was hyped as the best baryta at an outrageous price.  It is now one of the lowest priced barytas...  Go figure???


Phil

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Paul,
> 
> >One of the aspects of the Alise Museum-Natural that appears to appeal to both of us is the relatively low Lab B of the paper.  That is, it is a relatively neutral or "bright" natural paper as opposed to the usually more creamy look of non-OBA papers. 
> 
> Yes, I like that very much, but the main thing for me was the dmax.  Finding a non-OBA paper with dmax over 1.7 was a major big deal.  All the rest was icing on the cake.  
> 
>  
> 
> >Have you tried the Red River Aurora Natural?  It's even more neutral. It may have the lowest Lab B of any of the non-brightened papers.  
> 
> No, but I'll get some and test it.  My primary non-OBA paper has been Innova's Soft Textured Art with Dmax 1.62.  Very pretty paper (responds beautifully to K3) but is quite warm and thus more limited.  Aurora's 1.65 is good and a whiter paper would make it more universal.
> 
> 
> > With QTR I'm getting a dmax of 1.65 with the Aurora, which is not spectacular, but good enough that only those on this list would notice the difference.
> 
> Maybe it should be classified as a disease <g>.  
> 
> After your previous post about PA papers I went back through my past test prints and realized I never tested the PA325.  The 1.70 dmax sounds real good so I ordered some.  Hopefully it won't have the curl that Alise has and will allow flake spotting.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

Re: [Digital BW] Alise Natural Curl and Red River Aurora...comments on papers

2010-01-08 by Richard Sintchak

I just got some Alise Natural from Atlex in the mail yesterday.  Got both
letter and 13x19.  Have not opened up the 13x19 yet.  I printed about 4-5
pages on my 2200 last night.  It did indeed have some curl to it.  Not a lot
but enough to where I did not even try the normal page feed instead using
the lever to open the paper through-put and slip it in manually thru the
back of the printer.  No head strike issues at all (and I do have headstrike
issues sometimes with some of the Harman papers....)

Absolutely gorgeous prints with great blacks using Epson Matte Black ink and
printing BO on the 2200.  One flake on one print but I cannot say it was not
from dust.  Others look fine.

Got an Epson 1400 that should arrive today or tomorrow and a set of eboni-6
carts from MIS coming next week.  Will report more on using this paper, that
ink and the 1400 soon.....

You know, now that you mention it I think I may have an old box of
letter-size RR Aurora on a shelf somewhere.....

-- 
Richard S.
Albany, CA (San Francisco bay area)

My Photography Website
http://www.lightshadowandtone.com

My Flickr River
http://flickriver.com/photos/rich8155/popular-interesting/

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:31 AM, KentB <philip@...> wrote:

>
>
> I had ordered some of the Alise Natural in November...I ultimately returned
> it to Premier, due to the curl. Atlex was really good about handling the
> return. I had major head strike issues even though I was using a 4880 with
> the highest vacuum setting. Premier said they were aware of the curl and
> were dealing with it. Yesterday, I spoke with Atlex...and they assured me
> that Premier had corrected the curl. I cannot validate this, but I plan to
> order a bit again.
>
> I concur with Paul Roark...after I sent back the Alise...I ordered a box of
> Red River Aurora Natural. After a bit of extra profiling in QTR...I am
> getting very acceptable dmax. I did have to add a more significant Black
> boost to my profile for the Aurora...but it appears to handle a good load of
> ink. After first emerging from the printer, the maximum black looks a bit
> over inked, but upon drying...it is visually just as black as the Alise. Of
> course this is not a scientific appraissal, but the Aurora prints are quite
> lovely...I would be proud to hang them in a show.
>
> Price is reasonable on the Aurora and it has the added benefit of being two
> sided. It lays out dead flat.
>
> I compared identical images of Alise and the Red River Aurora. Both are
> nice...I cannot honestly say Alise is significantly nicer. I would have to
> think twice about paying twice the price for Alise. The differences are not
> all that great IMHO. Perhaps for some images needing a wee bit more of that
> special something....but for a lot of images..I am not convinced that the
> chase for dmax is the holy grail.
>
> I have to believe that a lot of the new papers are marketed with hype.
> Alise has certainly not been immune to the hype about dmax.
> Have you noticed how Epson Exhibition Fibre was hyped as the best baryta at
> an outrageous price. It is now one of the lowest priced barytas... Go
> figure???
>
> Phil
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Paul,
> >
> > >One of the aspects of the Alise Museum-Natural that appears to appeal to
> both of us is the relatively low Lab B of the paper. That is, it is a
> relatively neutral or "bright" natural paper as opposed to the usually more
> creamy look of non-OBA papers.
> >
> > Yes, I like that very much, but the main thing for me was the dmax.
> Finding a non-OBA paper with dmax over 1.7 was a major big deal. All the
> rest was icing on the cake.
> >
> >
> >
> > >Have you tried the Red River Aurora Natural? It's even more neutral. It
> may have the lowest Lab B of any of the non-brightened papers.
> >
> > No, but I'll get some and test it. My primary non-OBA paper has been
> Innova's Soft Textured Art with Dmax 1.62. Very pretty paper (responds
> beautifully to K3) but is quite warm and thus more limited. Aurora's 1.65 is
> good and a whiter paper would make it more universal.
> >
> >
> > > With QTR I'm getting a dmax of 1.65 with the Aurora, which is not
> spectacular, but good enough that only those on this list would notice the
> difference.
> >
> > Maybe it should be classified as a disease <g>.
> >
> > After your previous post about PA papers I went back through my past test
> prints and realized I never tested the PA325. The 1.70 dmax sounds real good
> so I ordered some. Hopefully it won't have the curl that Alise has and will
> allow flake spotting.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> >
> >
> > Info on black and white digital printing at
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Coating trends was Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-08 by tboleyyh

good points. I've noticed a trend in these new coatings, they seem to be able to reach higher individual ink densities, but at the expense of being able to take much total ink percentage. The way the Epson driver works, more and more, it used GCR and total ink control, including light ink and dot size usage, in unique ways that can't be replicated by conventional inn CMYK ink builds. 
Therefore, total ink is quite low, bleeding is rare, ink usage is more economical, tech support issues smaller, profiling (for RGB) better, etc etc.
So the coating designers are taking advantage of this, they don't need to support high ink loads, and individual ink densities can stay high, yielding better damx and gamut, at the expense of other issues some of us doing RIP work, or unusual ink and media work are interested in.
Anyway, I agree, I've been able to do things on the older tech Hahnemuhle coatings that yield richer prints, that I have not been able to quite match with some of these new coatings.. very subtle, and probably of interest to very few any more...
Another observation, some of these new coatings are "harder", for lack of a better word, while the older ones are sort of powdery. This has a slightly different look in real world lighting. Even though Sugar Cane and William Turner measure very much the same, WT looks richer and blacker than Sugar Cane because there is a near imperceptable surface hard sheen to Sugar Cane, while WT has that black velvet Elvis art quality that just seems richer.
I've noticed the Alise, and Canson (BFK, Montval) papers have this quality to the coatings. They work well and seem to be more physically robust, but have very slightly harder, and therefore more reflective, surface.
If they were all spotlit, in an otherwise black room, I'll bet the differences would nearly disappear.
Still, some of the most beautiful B&W and color prints I've seen from ink are on German Etching, and it's not even cotton.
Just musing.. back to work.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> and flaking can occur if you don't linearize the media well and end up laying down too much ink, especially in the darkest shadow zones. Many of us, including myself, have been spoiled in the way that Photorag, and Hanhemuhle in general can absorb lots of black ink while most papers of similar surface can not, then we blame it on the coating of the other surfaces. Innova and Crane media also require more limiting with most printers for monochrome to achieve optimum dmax without flaking, reversing of dmax, or mottling. 
> 
> This is a factor that one can appreciate with the well thought out Hahnemuhle ink receptor coatings. And, they deserve credit for that quality. Personally I haven't run across any coatings that have performed as well in that regard overall.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > Clayton, the tests I've had laying around here for some time seem to me to a bit more robust than HPR's coating, so I'd pursue these other mentioned issues and see what helps. I wouldn't give up on the stuff yet.
> > Tyler
> > http://www.custom-digital.com/
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Another thought - this paper has a strong curl and I am gently reverse bending it to flatten it before feeding to the printer.  Maybe this bending is causing the flaking...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Clayton
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
> > >
> >
>

[Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-08 by Paul

Ah, I didn't realize that. But wouldn't I have noticed it turning blue on my darkroom prints that I've had around for many years? Would this blue issue be noticeable even with SpotTone #2, their "warm" black?

And Clayton, who makes those pigment spotting pens that you use?

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Remember that Spotone is a dye. As it ages, it turns blue.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-08 by Paul

I had left my SpotTone in the garage, when one cold night I remembered it was out there... sure enough, my #2 bottle had cracked and completely drained! And it is no longer made. I looked on eBay and individual bottles (they're tiny!) are selling for over $20 each! So, if you've still got some, hang on to it. Of course, those little bottles are pretty much a lifetime supply.

I still have some blotches in my plastic mixing tray, so am ok for the time being.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> Hello Paul,
> 
> >...I still get a few - however they're easy to spot with some SpotTone from my darkroom days. 
> 
> I still have some SpotTone, never thought to try it on inkjet papers.  I'll give it a try, thanks for the tip.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

Paul - Spotting Pens

2010-01-09 by ClaytonJ

> And Clayton, who makes those pigment spotting pens that you use?

Please see yesterday's "Spotting Pens" post #98702




Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Paul - Spotting Pens

2010-01-09 by pdesmidt tds.net

Regarding Spotone,  I haven't had a problem with it either with prints
dating back to 1990.  I do remember reading a piece by a conservator,
though, saying that it was a problem with some of Ansel Adams's prints.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-09 by Lew

I wonder what the raw pigment is. Probably not too hard to mix yourself if you knew.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul" <paulmwhiting@...>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 22:54:00 
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural



I had left my SpotTone in the garage, when one cold night I remembered it was out there... sure enough, my #2 bottle had cracked and completely drained! And it is no longer made. I looked on eBay and individual bottles (they're tiny!) are selling for over $20 each! So, if you've still got some, hang on to it. Of course, those little bottles are pretty much a lifetime supply.

I still have some blotches in my plastic mixing tray, so am ok for the time being.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Hello Paul,
> 
> >...I still get a few - however they're easy to spot with some SpotTone from my darkroom days. 
> 
> I still have some SpotTone, never thought to try it on inkjet papers.  I'll give it a try, thanks for the tip.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-09 by john

Spotone is not pigment. They are dyes. That means all the prints we've spotted over the years will change. I've actually seen some of  mine change toward bluer hues already.

Edward Weston used to use a spotting color made of gum arabic and black carbon based drawing ink. His will probably do better than the modern methods we used.

Best thing to use for spotting inkjet prints is the actual pigments themselves. Take old carts, break them open and put the remainder in little bottles. I used to use Windsor Newton watercolors but the actual inkjet pigments will fade at the same rate and penetrate better.

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lew" <lew1716@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I wonder what the raw pigment is. Probably not too hard to mix yourself if you knew.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Paul" <paulmwhiting@...>
> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2010 22:54:00 
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural
> 
> 
> 
> I had left my SpotTone in the garage, when one cold night I remembered it was out there... sure enough, my #2 bottle had cracked and completely drained! And it is no longer made. I looked on eBay and individual bottles (they're tiny!) are selling for over $20 each! So, if you've still got some, hang on to it. Of course, those little bottles are pretty much a lifetime supply.
> 
> I still have some blotches in my plastic mixing tray, so am ok for the time being.
> 
> Paul
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Hello Paul,
> > 
> > >...I still get a few - however they're easy to spot with some SpotTone from my darkroom days. 
> > 
> > I still have some SpotTone, never thought to try it on inkjet papers.  I'll give it a try, thanks for the tip.
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-09 by Roger Sopher

On 1/9/10 1:40 PM, john wrote:
>  
>
> Spotone is not pigment. They are dyes. That means all the prints we've
> spotted over the years will change. I've actually seen some of mine
> change toward bluer hues already.
>
> Edward Weston used to use a spotting color made of gum arabic and
> black carbon based drawing ink. His will probably do better than the
> modern methods we used.
>
> Best thing to use for spotting inkjet prints is the actual pigments
> themselves. Take old carts, break them open and put the remainder in
> little bottles. I used to use Windsor Newton watercolors but the
> actual inkjet pigments will fade at the same rate and penetrate better.
>
> john
>
>
>
> 

An old trick that has worked well for me is to print a B&W ramp on
glossy paper to which the ink will mainly sit on the surface rather than
be absorbed. Once it has dried one can take a small pointed brush dipped
in a bit of water or saliva if you prefer and remove a bit of ink from
the ramp that matched the area you need to spot and then spot the print
with it much as you would use a dilution of Spotone. Since it is the
same ink used for the print the match will be good and the permanence
identical.  I've used this method since the mid nineties, cheap and
effective.

Roger

-- 
--------------------------------------------
Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...
http://rlsopher.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-10 by E.Neilsen

Clayton, I find the best way to spot inkjet is with ink jet ink; )    I am
sure you have a left over cart of two of the set you use. Draw a small
amount and place it on a clean dry white plate. Distilled water on a 000 to
00000 brush and dust is gone. In a pinch you can even just pull a cart and
with a moist brush lightly wipe the area where the ink come out and pick up
enough to get that spot removed. 

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ClaytonJ
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:49 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

 

  



Hello Paul,

>...I still get a few - however they're easy to spot with some SpotTone from
my darkroom days. 

I still have some SpotTone, never thought to try it on inkjet papers. I'll
give it a try, thanks for the tip.

Regards,
Clayton

Info on black and white digital printing at 
http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm> net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm> net/itrak.htm





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-10 by Paul

> An old trick that has worked well for me is to print a B&W ramp on
> glossy paper to which the ink will mainly sit on the surface rather than
> be absorbed. Once it has dried one can take a small pointed brush dipped
> in a bit of water or saliva if you prefer and remove a bit of ink from
> the ramp that matched the area you need to spot and then spot the print
> with it much as you would use a dilution of Spotone. Since it is the
> same ink used for the print the match will be good and the permanence
> identical.  I've used this method since the mid nineties, cheap and
> effective.
> 
> Roger

Sounds good, Roger... but can you tell me what you mean by "ramp"? Thank you!

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-10 by mrjimbo

That would be the linearization ramp I would guess  which would contain shades from white to black.

 An alternate method is to print parts of the image as needed on a piece of velum or clear acetate.. it stays wet as it doesn't get absorbed in the surface.. that process is a dead nuts match for the patch area and uses the actual inks. A fine brush works great for the transfer

As a thought regarding the flaking and using non pigment ink materials. When the flakes occur it could be one of two things.. an actual paper flake or a flake in the receptor layer. I would think that one has to access the damage.. If it's a noteworthy flake then I would think using the actual printer inks is the way to go. If were talking a speck or something similar then even a fine point sharpie might suffice. These are permanent but the concept of fading over time when were talking a speck might have a negligible impact on the artwork.. Also a thought for consideration is that if the flake has any magnitude to it then the receptor layer is probably gone in that area. That in itself may have some consequences when considering the fading or shifting of density over time relative to the area next to it that wasn't patched.... probably not but I don't think we know.. 
Their are also die based touch up markers that also have a blender marker which is just another marker but with a clear solvent in it that allows for added working of the spot. . I have a set but don't use them as I prefer my previous stated methods.

Personally, I think flaking issues are typically manufacturing issues..or could be the result of over inking..In either case that's not a material that I would choose to run for my customers due to risk. 

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:01 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural


    
  > An old trick that has worked well for me is to print a B&W ramp on
  > glossy paper to which the ink will mainly sit on the surface rather than
  > be absorbed. Once it has dried one can take a small pointed brush dipped
  > in a bit of water or saliva if you prefer and remove a bit of ink from
  > the ramp that matched the area you need to spot and then spot the print
  > with it much as you would use a dilution of Spotone. Since it is the
  > same ink used for the print the match will be good and the permanence
  > identical. I've used this method since the mid nineties, cheap and
  > effective.
  > 
  > Roger

  Sounds good, Roger... but can you tell me what you mean by "ramp"? Thank you!

  Paul



  


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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-12 by Charles Becker

From flaking to spot brushes?

Can we keep on topic?

4 threads about spot brushes, but a minor "flaking" problem as the header........




________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Paul <paulmwhiting@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 10, 2010 7:01:28 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

  
> An old trick that has worked well for me is to print a B&W ramp on
> glossy paper to which the ink will mainly sit on the surface rather than
> be absorbed. Once it has dried one can take a small pointed brush dipped
> in a bit of water or saliva if you prefer and remove a bit of ink from
> the ramp that matched the area you need to spot and then spot the print
> with it much as you would use a dilution of Spotone. Since it is the
> same ink used for the print the match will be good and the permanence
> identical. I've used this method since the mid nineties, cheap and
> effective.
> 
> Roger

Sounds good, Roger... but can you tell me what you mean by "ramp"? Thank you!

Paul





      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-13 by Roger Sopher

On 1/9/10 2:30 PM, Roger Sopher wrote:
>  
>
>
>
> An old trick that has worked well for me is to print a B&W ramp on
> glossy paper to which the ink will mainly sit on the surface rather than
> be absorbed. Once it has dried one can take a small pointed brush dipped
> in a bit of water or saliva if you prefer and remove a bit of ink from
> the ramp that matched the area you need to spot and then spot the print
> with it much as you would use a dilution of Spotone. Since it is the
> same ink used for the print the match will be good and the permanence
> identical. I've used this method since the mid nineties, cheap and
> effective.
>
> Roger
>
Been away for a while, Ramp  = step wedge. I usually use a simple 21
step. Sorry to offend those perfect few that never have to spot their
B&W Inkjet Prints....

-- 
--------------------------------------------
Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...
http://rlsopher.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-14 by Andrew Sharpe

That's pretty clever. I was lamenting the fact that the pure carbon ink
I use won't stick to glossy paper; now I can see that that is a feature. :)

Andrew


> On 1/9/10 2:30 PM, Roger Sopher wrote:
>> An old trick that has worked well for me is to print a B&W ramp on
>> glossy paper to which the ink will mainly sit on the surface rather than
>> be absorbed. Once it has dried one can take a small pointed brush dipped
>> in a bit of water or saliva if you prefer and remove a bit of ink from
>> the ramp that matched the area you need to spot and then spot the print
>> with it much as you would use a dilution of Spotone. Since it is the
>> same ink used for the print the match will be good and the permanence
>> identical. I've used this method since the mid nineties, cheap and
>> effective.


-- 
http://andrewsharpe.com

[Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-14 by Paul

Thanks, Roger, I wasn't familiar with that term ("ramp"). 

That's a great tip to get a selection of grays with which do spotting!. By Googling on "21 step gray scale" I found a way to create one in PhotoShop by performing a black -> white gradient and then posterizing that into 21 steps. Or do you know of somewhere I can download such a file?

Hmm... I do have a Kodak gray scale on heavy stock that I used to use doing darkroom copy work... I guess I could scan that and I'd have my step file, right?

Regards,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Roger Sopher <portlyfox@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On 1/9/10 2:30 PM, Roger Sopher wrote:
> >  
> > An old trick that has worked well for me is to print a B&W ramp on
> > glossy paper to which the ink will mainly sit on the surface rather than
> > be absorbed. Once it has dried one can take a small pointed brush dipped
> > in a bit of water or saliva if you prefer and remove a bit of ink from
> > the ramp that matched the area you need to spot and then spot the print
> > with it much as you would use a dilution of Spotone. Since it is the
> > same ink used for the print the match will be good and the permanence
> > identical. I've used this method since the mid nineties, cheap and
> > effective.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> Been away for a while, Ramp  = step wedge. I usually use a simple 21
> step. Sorry to offend those perfect few that never have to spot their
> B&W Inkjet Prints....
> 
> -- 
> --------------------------------------------
> Roger L Sopher
> rlsopher@...
> http://rlsopher.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-14 by C D Tobie

On Jan 14, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Paul wrote:

> Hmm... I do have a Kodak gray scale on heavy stock that I used to  
> use doing darkroom copy work... I guess I could scan that and I'd  
> have my step file, right?

Kodak grayscales are not neutral, the light end becomes warmer as it  
approaches the rather yellow paper white. You would be better off  
using digitally generated gray scale files.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-14 by Roger Sopher

On 1/14/10 1:40 PM, Paul wrote:
>  
>
>
>
> Thanks, Roger, I wasn't familiar with that term ("ramp").
>
> That's a great tip to get a selection of grays with which do
> spotting!. By Googling on "21 step gray scale" I found a way to create
> one in PhotoShop by performing a black -> white gradient and then
> posterizing that into 21 steps. Or do you know of somewhere I can
> download such a file?
>
> Hmm... I do have a Kodak gray scale on heavy stock that I used to use
> doing darkroom copy work... I guess I could scan that and I'd have my
> step file, right?
>
> Regards,
>
> Paul
>
You can download step wedges from any number of places. A Google search
will produce more than you may want.  Probably just as easy and perhaps
less chance of getting one someone modified is just to generate it in
Photo shop as you described. This is a fancier version but is really the
same thing:

http://www.jnevins.com/stepwedge.htm

Roger




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-15 by Paul

Thanks, Roger, with the help of that link I was able to generate a 21 step gray scale in Photoshop. Now, I need to print it on glossy paper, right? My printing set up uses the 3MK approach with an Epson R1800 on matt paper, I never use gloss. But I do have some glossy paper on hand... should I just print the ramp on that? Then, my understanding it will exit the printer rather wet - so I let it dry and then, dipping my wet brush in the appropriate wedge, I do my spotting. Right? I'm a little reluctant, don't want to gum up the printer...

Thanks,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Roger Sopher <portlyfox@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On 1/14/10 1:40 PM, Paul wrote:
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Roger, I wasn't familiar with that term ("ramp").
> >
> > That's a great tip to get a selection of grays with which do
> > spotting!. By Googling on "21 step gray scale" I found a way to create
> > one in PhotoShop by performing a black -> white gradient and then
> > posterizing that into 21 steps. Or do you know of somewhere I can
> > download such a file?
> >
> > Hmm... I do have a Kodak gray scale on heavy stock that I used to use
> > doing darkroom copy work... I guess I could scan that and I'd have my
> > step file, right?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> You can download step wedges from any number of places. A Google search
> will produce more than you may want.  Probably just as easy and perhaps
> less chance of getting one someone modified is just to generate it in
> Photo shop as you described. This is a fancier version but is really the
> same thing:
> 
> http://www.jnevins.com/stepwedge.htm
> 
> Roger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-15 by Andrew Sharpe

You know, after I posted that this method of spotting was clever, I
started thinking (I know, sometimes a bad idea). Glossy paper prints
very differently than the non-OBA matte paper I use, with very different
shades. It seems like it would be very easy to pick the wrong grey scale
step for spotting, because when I spot the matte paper, it will be a
different shade. I guess you would learn over time which of the steps on
a given type of glossy paper matched the actual shade of the hole you
needed to fill on a given matte paper, but it seems like this would be a
pain.

Perhaps it doesn't matter in practice; I haven't tried it yet.

Andrew

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-15 by Roger Sopher

On 1/14/10 10:01 PM, Paul wrote:
>  
>
>
>
> Thanks, Roger, with the help of that link I was able to generate a 21
> step gray scale in Photoshop. Now, I need to print it on glossy paper,
> right? My printing set up uses the 3MK approach with an Epson R1800 on
> matt paper, I never use gloss. But I do have some glossy paper on
> hand... should I just print the ramp on that? Then, my understanding
> it will exit the printer rather wet - so I let it dry and then,
> dipping my wet brush in the appropriate wedge, I do my spotting.
> Right? I'm a little reluctant, don't want to gum up the printer...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>, Roger Sopher
> <portlyfox@...> wrote:
> >
> > On 1/14/10 1:40 PM, Paul wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks, Roger, I wasn't familiar with that term ("ramp").
> > >
> > > That's a great tip to get a selection of grays with which do
> > > spotting!. By Googling on "21 step gray scale" I found a way to create
> > > one in PhotoShop by performing a black -> white gradient and then
> > > posterizing that into 21 steps. Or do you know of somewhere I can
> > > download such a file?
> > >
> > > Hmm... I do have a Kodak gray scale on heavy stock that I used to use
> > > doing darkroom copy work... I guess I could scan that and I'd have my
> > > step file, right?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > You can download step wedges from any number of places. A Google search
> > will produce more than you may want. Probably just as easy and perhaps
> > less chance of getting one someone modified is just to generate it in
> > Photo shop as you described. This is a fancier version but is really the
> > same thing:
> >
> > http://www.jnevins.com/stepwedge.htm
> <http://www.jnevins.com/stepwedge.htm>
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> 


-- 
--------------------------------------------
Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...
http://rlsopher.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-15 by Roger Sopher

On 1/15/10 1:19 AM, Andrew Sharpe wrote:
>  
>
> You know, after I posted that this method of spotting was clever, I
> started thinking (I know, sometimes a bad idea). Glossy paper prints
> very differently than the non-OBA matte paper I use, with very different
> shades. It seems like it would be very easy to pick the wrong grey scale
> step for spotting, because when I spot the matte paper, it will be a
> different shade. I guess you would learn over time which of the steps on
> a given type of glossy paper matched the actual shade of the hole you
> needed to fill on a given matte paper, but it seems like this would be a
> pain.
>
> Perhaps it doesn't matter in practice; I haven't tried it yet.
>
> Andrew
>
> 
In practice it really isn't a problem, at least to my eyes. As you
probably remember from darkroom days, spotting is an art and digital
printing hasn't changed that. If anything, I think it may be more
difficult now since flaking can produce "holes" that are a fair bit
larger than dust or negative defects did on gelatin prints and they
aren't predictable from print to print..  As I recall (at my age not to
be trusted...) Adams etc. used professional spotters when they produced
an edition.



Roger

-- 
--------------------------------------------
Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...
http://rlsopher.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-15 by Roger Sopher

On 1/15/10 8:11 AM, Roger Sopher wrote:
>  
>
> On 1/14/10 10:01 PM, Paul wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Roger, with the help of that link I was able to generate a 21
> > step gray scale in Photoshop. Now, I need to print it on glossy paper,
> > right? My printing set up uses the 3MK approach with an Epson R1800 on
> > matt paper, I never use gloss. But I do have some glossy paper on
> > hand... should I just print the ramp on that? Then, my understanding
> > it will exit the printer rather wet - so I let it dry and then,
> > dipping my wet brush in the appropriate wedge, I do my spotting.
> > Right? I'm a little reluctant, don't want to gum up the printer...
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Paul
> >
>
> .
>
> 
That looks right on to me. I've used this method from the 1160 to the
2400 and haven't had a problem with it messing up the machine. The print
will come out wet and will be messy until it dries. Different glossies
will absorb ink to a different degree but I haven't found that to be a
problem.  It works much as with Spotone except you are using glossy
paper rather than a ceramic spotting dish. The technique with the brush
is just the same.

Roger

-- 
--------------------------------------------
Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...
http://rlsopher.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-15 by Paul

Thanks very much, Roger, I'll give that a try today.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Roger Sopher <portlyfox@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On 1/15/10 8:11 AM, Roger Sopher wrote:
> >  
> >
> > On 1/14/10 10:01 PM, Paul wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks, Roger, with the help of that link I was able to generate a 21
> > > step gray scale in Photoshop. Now, I need to print it on glossy paper,
> > > right? My printing set up uses the 3MK approach with an Epson R1800 on
> > > matt paper, I never use gloss. But I do have some glossy paper on
> > > hand... should I just print the ramp on that? Then, my understanding
> > > it will exit the printer rather wet - so I let it dry and then,
> > > dipping my wet brush in the appropriate wedge, I do my spotting.
> > > Right? I'm a little reluctant, don't want to gum up the printer...
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> >
> > .
> >
> > 
> That looks right on to me. I've used this method from the 1160 to the
> 2400 and haven't had a problem with it messing up the machine. The print
> will come out wet and will be messy until it dries. Different glossies
> will absorb ink to a different degree but I haven't found that to be a
> problem.  It works much as with Spotone except you are using glossy
> paper rather than a ceramic spotting dish. The technique with the brush
> is just the same.
> 
> Roger
> 
> -- 
> --------------------------------------------
> Roger L Sopher
> rlsopher@...
> http://rlsopher.com
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bad News About Alise Natural

2010-01-15 by Steve and Ann Taylor

Instead of printing a ramp, print the same image that you want to retouch.  
You don't need to print the whole thing, just a section around the  
point(s) needed for retouching. Then you don't have to try to match the  
shade, just get the ink from the exact same image point the needs  
retouching. The ink shade will match exactly by virtue of it being the  
same point on the image. I saw this tip in a previous post on this list or  
on another list. I don't remember where I saw it and can take no credit  
for coming up with it. It seems to be a very valid way of getting a good  
match. I believe this would work beautifully for color work also.

Steve

  On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 22:19:11 -0800, Andrew Sharpe  
<asharpe@...> wrote:

> You know, after I posted that this method of spotting was clever, I
> started thinking (I know, sometimes a bad idea). Glossy paper prints
> very differently than the non-OBA matte paper I use, with very different
> shades. It seems like it would be very easy to pick the wrong grey scale
> step for spotting, because when I spot the matte paper, it will be a
> different shade. I guess you would learn over time which of the steps on
> a given type of glossy paper matched the actual shade of the hole you
> needed to fill on a given matte paper, but it seems like this would be a
> pain.
>
> Perhaps it doesn't matter in practice; I haven't tried it yet.
>
> Andrew
>

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