Digital BW, The Print

I just made a couple of prints to see the results of this alternate Y ink.

With the K3 ink, the print looks as I expected it to.

With the MIS EZW-4Y in place, the same print shows a strong shift toward
magenta or maybe red.

Both were printed with the same ABW settings.

Is this to be expected?

Are different ABW settings needed with the MIS ink to create a neutral
print?

Dave.

-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave,

>I just made a couple of prints to see the results of this alternate Y ink.

>With the K3 ink, the print looks as I expected it to.

>With the MIS EZW-4Y in place, the same print shows a strong shift 
> toward magenta or maybe red.

> Both were printed with the same ABW settings.

With carbon in the yellow position, the print should be cooler than when the
yellow is in that spot, assuming nothing else changed.  The carbon is like a
very low gamut yellow.  So, there is, in effect, less yellow in the image
when the carbon is used there.

>Is this to be expected?

No. I don't know where the red or magenta would be coming from.  If MIS
carbon was substituted for Epson neutral grays, then I would expect some
shift toward magenta, because Epson grays are a bit greenish.

>Are different ABW settings needed with the MIS ink to create a 
> neutral print?

Yes, you'll have to move the fine adjustment point up a bit.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

In a message dated 11/20/06 9:42:39 AM, ausdlk@... writes:


> I just made a couple of prints to see the results of this alternate Y ink.
> 
> With the K3 ink, the print looks as I expected it to.
> 
> With the MIS EZW-4Y in place, the same print shows a strong shift toward
> magenta or maybe red.
> 
> Both were printed with the same ABW settings.
> 
> Is this to be expected?
> 
Of course! The printer doesn't know that you've removed yellow from its 
universe. The results I was reporting were based on building a new PrintFIX PRO 2.0 
profile for the printer once the EZ W carbon yellow cartridge was 
installed... that corrects for the difference. Other methods of adjusting should also be 
possible, I used this one as it was what I was testing...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I just made a couple of prints to see the results of this alternate Y ink.
> 
> With the K3 ink, the print looks as I expected it to.
> 
> With the MIS EZW-4Y in place, the same print shows a strong shift toward
> magenta or maybe red.
> 
> Both were printed with the same ABW settings.
> 
> Is this to be expected?
> 
> Are different ABW settings needed with the MIS ink to create a neutral
> print?
> 
> Dave.
> 
Hi Dave,

I'm just a newb here in the same boat as yourself. 

I, too, have tried the EZ Yellow system as described by Paul Roark. And I've tried the 2400 
system as espoused by Clayton. I've tried MIS K4. And I've tried grayscale and Black only. 
Thank you Paul and Clayton both for the incredible job you've done to advance b&w 
printing.

But I'm about ready to chuck it all for all oem inks and the abw driver. Why? With EZ 
Yellow, I get these incredibly BLUE prints. They're too cold for me. Case in point, with a 
gray barn picture: with EZ Yellow and Kayenta paper, I jigger the vertical axis to +40 or so 
and the horizontal axis to -15 or so. I have to jigger it over to green to to get neutral.

But when I use a warm-tone paper, such as Ilford, it's all GREEN! There's no way you're 
going to get neutral. You might get delightful pinks and yummy plums depending on your 
paper. Who knows? 

In my experience, using Epson Enhanced Matte as a proofing paper with the r2400 is an 
exercise in frustration. Kayenta is an exercise in frustration, too. I love Epson VFA, but only 
for color right now.

Maybe when you guys get out of the bottle and the cave and stuff you can help us 
shmucks make prints.

>ut I'm about ready to chuck it all for all oem inks and the abw driver.

Me too. I had an awful time over the weekend with the full set MIS K4 inks.
They agreed to give full refund so that's to their credit so I'm not going
to flame them too bad but what a disaster. I'm still not sure that some of
my R2400 print heads won't clog again like they were doing -- and did once
again even after switching back to Epson carts.

>With EZ Yellow, I get these incredibly BLUE prints.

The magenta/red shift I saw may have been the result of the clogged head(s)
and maybe not a direct result of the EZ yellow ink but since the yellow
channel on my printer was getting completely blocked from delivering any ink
to the paper, I'm not sure that I can trust trying the EZ Yellow cartridge
again.

>Kayenta is an exercise in frustration

I like this paper. I did some very, very nice BO prints on a 2200 using MIS
eboni ink on this paper awhile back. I do plan to keep this big bottle of
eboni and I most likely will take my chances on trying BO prints on my 2400
-- but it doesn't seem like I've read about others doing this so maybe it
doesn't work on the the 2400.

I guess that's a guess for the group -- can the R2400 print BO?

Dave.



-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David Keenan" <ausdlk@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
David and others:

I should have taken that handful of Ambien and chill pills before I wrote that. My apologies. 
I'm better now.

I tried BO with the 2400 and got some even weirder colors I haven't seen since the 1970s, on 
a different kind of cocktail, if you know what I mean.

I think I'm going to have to suffer with yellow and 70-year prints.

David,

>-- can the R2400 print BO?

No, there is no option for it in the driver.  I tried it using QTR. 
It worked, but the dither patterns were crude compared to the Epson
driver BO dither and the results were unsatisfactory.  I'm currently
using an R200 for Eboni BO prints.  Does a fine job, but limited to
letter size.  I do all my proofing on it and use 2400/ABW just for
final prints.  This reduces ink costs a lot.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello mbutler,

>I'm about ready to chuck it all for all oem inks and the abw driver. 
>I love Epson VFA, but only for color right now.

When you get back and running with K3 inks try some VFA with ABW
setting of 2h,8v.  I find this make a very pretty tone, just slightly
warm of neutral and resembles Eboni BO.

 
Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

mbutler,

Glad you're better now [g].


>I think I'm going to have to suffer with yellow and 70-year prints.

Wilhelm rates 2400/ABW matte prints from 110 to >200 years depending
on paper and display method - see page 3 at this link

  http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html


Color prints get lower ratings, but ABW is quite good.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

>... With EZ Yellow, I get these incredibly BLUE prints. ...

I'm wondering what MIS shipped.  In RGB mode, try printing a solid yellow
patch and see what color is it.  It should be warm -- that is, pure carbon
ink.  I'm guessing it'll be neutral or cool -- like EZ-Neutral.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> 
wrote:
>
> >... With EZ Yellow, I get these incredibly BLUE prints. ...
> 
> I'm wondering what MIS shipped.  In RGB mode, try printing a solid yellow
> patch and see what color is it.  It should be warm -- that is, pure carbon
> ink.  I'm guessing it'll be neutral or cool -- like EZ-Neutral.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
Hey Paul,

Unfortunately, I popped out the EZW and popped in the Epson Yellow to print a picture of a 
red barn I have. The printer wouldn't recognize the MIS LK cart all of a sudden. During all 
this ABW experimentation I was doing, I thought it odd that the printer was sucking down 
my cyan and magenta carts at a much faster rate than the EZW cart. Maybe that's normal, 
or maybe I did get a funky cart or two from MIS. We'll see.

At any rate, as luck would have it, I'm totally out of LC now, so I can't do much of anything 
except vacuum and dust--probably a good thing.

Clayton: The funny thing is, I tried your VFA method with the K3s before I went off on this 
tangent and absolutely loved it. But you know how it is--a part of me always thinks I 
might be able to do better.

I'm going to get lost in Death Valley in a couple of weeks. Look for my skull next year out 
by the racetrack--it'll probably have a subtle cyan cast. ;-)

Anyway, best wishes and my gratitude this week to all of you in this forum who patiently 
share your wisdom....

Mike

Hello Mike,

>Clayton: The funny thing is, I tried your VFA method with the K3s 
>before I went off on this tangent and absolutely loved it. But you 
>know how it is--a part of me always thinks I might be able to do 
>better.

Ah, well, that's the way we learn.  Over time I'm sure you'll find
what suits you best and settle into it.

 
>I'm going to get lost in Death Valley in a couple of weeks. Look 
>for my skull next year out by the racetrack--it'll probably have a 
>subtle cyan cast. ;-)

I was there in January 05, my first and only trip there.  Fantastic
place.  Spent an entire day on Mesquite Dunes, was like walking around
on the Moon.  Was there before dawn and saw the transition where the
sun first begins to make shadows.  Awesome experience.  Hope you get
some good pics.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

>During all this ABW experimentation I was doing, I thought it odd that
>the printer was sucking down my cyan and magenta carts at a much
>faster rate than the EZW cart

You know I saw something like to this too using the MIS inks (which I have
abandoned).

The LM and LC inks especially were being depleted at a much faster rate then
I remember them being used printing ABW with the Epson inks -- maybe I
seemly don't remember this with the Epson inks but I was surprised to see
these ink levels dropping at more or less the same rate as the black inks.

Dave.
-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>When you get back and running with K3 inks try some VFA with ABW
>setting of 2h,8v.

Clayton --

Do you have "Eboni-like" ABW settings (or other recommedations)  that you
have discovered for Kayenta and/or Entrada?

Dave.
-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Do you have "Eboni-like" ABW settings (or other recommedations) 
>that you have discovered for Kayenta and/or Entrada?

I haven't used Entrada with k3, but try 4,6 with Kayenta.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I just made the substitution ... haven't made a firm decision yet. I also decided to purchase 
the MIS  PK, LLK and LK inks and tried them as well ...  horrible results ... maybe I was doing 
something wrong but, for example, where there should have been PK in the prints there were 
empty white blothes ... I ran all the tests on the printer but nothing was corrected so I put the 
Epson blacks back in but kept the yellow. I'm going to work with the EZW Yellowfor now since 
I think ultimately the results will be fine. There is more of a cold bluish tone but I kind of like 
this, especially with the pics I've done of some beaches right after a heavy Nor'easter.

This group is great and my head continues to swim with the information here.

Thanks.

David

www.morrowphoto.com

David,


>... MIS PK, LLK and LK inks and tried them as well ... 
> where there should have been PK in the prints there 
> were empty white blothes ...

Be sure you have perfect nozzle checks.

With MIS carts you have to remove the tab at the top to let air in.  The ink
will not be able to flow out otherwise.

> I'm going to work with the EZW Yellow for now ... 
> There is more of a cold bluish tone ...

The ABW mode controls need to be moved up a bit toward yellow to compensate
for the lack of yellow ink.

In RGB mode, print a solid yellow patch and make sure the resulting print is
on the warm side.  There is some evidence a batch of EZ-Neutral ink might
have been incorrectly labeled as EZ-Warm.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>There is some evidence a batch of EZ-Neutral ink might
>have been incorrectly labeled as EZ-Warm.

How would we know if we have been affected by this?

Dave.

-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>There is some evidence a batch of EZ-Neutral ink might
>>have been incorrectly labeled as EZ-Warm.

>How would we know if we have been affected by this?

In RGB mode, print a patch of solid yellow.  See if it is warm or
neutral/cool.

Some seem to have suggested that they are getting cold prints in ABW mode
with the fine adjustment slider all the way to the top.  That should not be
happening.  EZ-N in the yellow spot, however, would lead to this result.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hangs head in shame for being so stupid. Sorry. :(

 David

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> 
> 
>  
> With MIS carts you have to remove the tab at the top to let air in.  The ink
> will not be able to flow out otherwise.

>>>There is some evidence a batch of EZ-Neutral ink might
>>>have been incorrectly labeled as EZ-Warm.

>>How would we know if we have been affected by this?

>In RGB mode, print a patch of solid yellow. See if it is warm or
neutral/cool.

Well...

It looks warm but it's hard to see that this is "yellow" at all.

It looks more like a deep beige and it is around the same density as LK when
when looking at the print-out from the "purge8" test file from MIS.

I see some yellow in there but it is more like a yellowed tinted gray.

Is this what I should be seeing?

Dave.
-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It sounds like the ink is correct.  Carbon's gamut is very low yellow, just
a bit right of the Lab b axis.  However, a pure carbon image on a paper like
Crane Silver Rag is sufficiently warm that I've lost interest in the sepia
inks I once used. Of course, another factor for my shifting away from the
sepia is its relatively low fade resistance.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Keenan
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:36 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: R2400 printing with MIS EZW-4Y in the Yellow slot

 

>>>There is some evidence a batch of EZ-Neutral ink might
>>>have been incorrectly labeled as EZ-Warm.

>>How would we know if we have been affected by this?

>In RGB mode, print a patch of solid yellow. See if it is warm or
neutral/cool.

Well...

It looks warm but it's hard to see that this is "yellow" at all.

It looks more like a deep beige and it is around the same density as LK when
when looking at the print-out from the "purge8" test file from MIS.

I see some yellow in there but it is more like a yellowed tinted gray.

Is this what I should be seeing?

Dave.
-- 
My Photography: http://www.david- <http://www.david-keenan.com> keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david- <http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog>
keenan.com/euroblog

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> It sounds like the ink is correct. Carbon's gamut is very low yellow

Okay, it sound like I have the correct ink.

Prints made with this ink instead of K3 Y in a R2400 have significant shift
toward red/magenta. This is with the ABW set to Neutral.

Is this to be expected?

Any suggestions for ABW settings to create a neutral print?

Dave.
-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave,

> > It sounds like the ink is correct. Carbon's gamut is very low yellow

> Okay, it sound like I have the correct ink.

> Prints made with this ink [EZ-Warm] instead of K3 Y 
> in a R2400 have significant shift toward red/magenta. 
> This is with the ABW set to Neutral.

> Is this to be expected?

Since the EZ-W has a much lower gamut than the yellow it replaces, if the
ABW controls are left un-changed, the prints will mostly be "cooler" -- that
is, have a shift toward blue.

On the other hand, the EZ-W and all MIS carbon inks do have a positive Lab a
value (a bit red/magenta) compared to the Epson K3 "neutral" inks that have
a negative Lab a (a bit green).  So, if you replaced all the Epson neutral
inks with MIS carbon, you probably would see a bit of a shift toward red or
magenta relative to the Epson ink prints.

I don't have a list of recommended settings for the MIS carbon replacement.
I assumed most users would simply experiment with settings to see what
worked best for them.  

As an example, however, the settings I used for Crane Silver Rag are as
follows: Premium Semi Gloss media type, RPM quality, and ABW at "Darker,"
Shadows -10, and coordinates (-5, 14).  These settings worked when MIS
carbon was used for the Y as well as the LK and LLK positions.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>As an example, however, the settings I used for Crane Silver Rag are 
>as follows: Premium Semi Gloss media type, RPM quality, and ABW at 
>"Darker", Shadows -10, and coordinates (-5, 14). These settings worked 
>when MIS carbon was used for the Y as well as the LK and LLK positions.

Paul --

Thanks. 

So what inks are you using in the LK and LLK slots? Not the same MIS
ink in all three ink positions, right?

And whose carts do you prefer on the R2400?

Dave.

>So what inks are you using in the LK and LLK slots? 

MIS Pro or K4 LK and LLK.


>Not the same MIS ink in all three ink positions, right?

By using standard inks for most, I can use MIS, Epson or whatever in any of
the spots.  Right now I'm using Epson UC or Archival LM, for example.  The
Epson PK, when used in that spot, has potential for higher dmax. 

>And whose carts do you prefer on the R2400?

I've had no problems with the MIS easy-refill carts.  (Get extra chips.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



_____________

>>As an example, however, the settings I used for Crane Silver Rag are 
>>as follows: Premium Semi Gloss media type, RPM quality, and ABW at 
>>"Darker", Shadows -10, and coordinates (-5, 14). These settings worked 
>>when MIS carbon was used for the Y as well as the LK and LLK positions.

After finally settling on acceptable settings, most of
which I have made in ABW the only problem that still
occurs with the MIS EZW-4Y in the Yellow slot is a
thin blackish line down the very right side of any
print .. borderless or not. I have also tried removing
the EZW cart and putting it back in several times but
this does not correct the problem nor does aligning
and cleaning.  Anyone else have this similar problem?


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com

Does it happen if you add several pixels of white border to your image?

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of David
Logan-Morrow
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 8:25 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: R2400 printing with MIS EZW-4Y in the Yellow slot

After finally settling on acceptable settings, most of
which I have made in ABW the only problem that still
occurs with the MIS EZW-4Y in the Yellow slot is a
thin blackish line down the very right side of any
print .. borderless or not. I have also tried removing
the EZW cart and putting it back in several times but
this does not correct the problem nor does aligning
and cleaning. Anyone else have this similar problem?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>After finally settling on acceptable (MIS EZW-4Y) settings, most of
>which I have made in ABW
What settings? What paper(s)?

Dave.
-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]