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My head is about to explode

My head is about to explode

2006-11-15 by namibiajohnston

I have been reading the discussions of late, particularly those 
surrounding the 2400/2200. I really am at a loss as to what I should 
do. There seems to be a few like myself who are beyond a simple push 
print on a cheap photo printer, but not at the building a custom 
profile, with all the D'max detecting spectrogizmos with a 1024bit 
file with a 19 cartridge custom blended oak aged, triple distilled 
ink set.

That I live in the middle of nowhere in a country (Namibia)that has 
less then a dozen high end privately owned ink jet photo printers, 
less then a dozen resident D2X/1DSmkll's makes access to a dedicated 
high end print lab non-existent. If you are a serious photographer 
here regardless of color or B & W you have to get it done on your 
own. There are no schools, seminars, workshops and we suffer with a 
maximum 64kbs net connection unless you want to pop for a dedicated 
satellite uplink.

I do well with my real job, so for me it is not a question of money. 
It is a question of diminishing returns. 

So here is the question I have a 2400 on order, I have a 2200 in 
perfect condition sitting on my desk. Will the 2200 with a dedicated 
B & W ink set, either MIS or Cone, using their profiles, on a high 
end paper produce a noticeably superior output to the naked eye then 
the 2400 with the Epson ink set on a high end paper in the ABW mode?

I remain humbled by the depth and extent of the knowledge exhibited 
by the primary contributors to this forum. I recognize that my 
question is on the face of it simple and is certainly not overly 
technical but in a sense it is a real world question.

Thanks

Christopher L. Johnston
Johnston-Namibia c.c.
PO Box 354
Omaruru Namibia
chris@...m.na

RE: [Digital BW] My head is about to explode

2006-11-15 by Paul Roark

Christopher,

 

> .

>I have a 2400 on order, I have a 2200 in 

>perfect condition sitting on my desk. Will the 2200 with a dedicated 
>B & W ink set, either MIS or Cone, using their profiles, on a high 
>end paper produce a noticeably superior output to the naked eye then 
>the 2400 with the Epson ink set on a high end paper in the ABW mode?

 

At normal viewing distance, the 2400 prints will look smooth and fine to
most viewers.  The excess color will give it more metamerism, and it will
fade faster than an inkset that has only the minimum color in it.  (The
Y=Carbon approach was to take care of those problems.)  But, the 2400 and
OEM solution is very good.  

 

I'm one who thinks individuals need to be able to control - profile - their
own printers.  The ABW mode of the 2400 is a big step forward there.  While
it does not give the level on control some of us like, it does most of what
people want and need to make good B&W prints.  

 

Since you have a 2400 on order, I'd first see if the ABW mode with OEM inks
satisfies your needs.

 

Good luck with the system.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: My head is about to explode

2006-11-15 by Clayton Jones

Hello Christopher,

>There seems to be a few like myself who are beyond a simple push 
>print on a cheap photo printer, but not at the building a custom 
>profile, 

More than a few.  There are lots of people in this category, you
aren't alone.  We just aren't very vocal.


>...with all the D'max detecting spectrogizmos with a 1024bit 
>file with a 19 cartridge custom blended oak aged, triple distilled 
>ink set.

LOL!  


>So here is the question I have a 2400 on order, I have a 2200 in 
>perfect condition sitting on my desk. Will the 2200 with a dedicated 
>B & W ink set, either MIS or Cone, using their profiles, on a high 
>end paper produce a noticeably superior output to the naked eye then 
>the 2400 with the Epson ink set on a high end paper in the ABW mode?

Theoretically, yes, as was shown by Tyler's example.  I think that
whether it is visible to the eye depends a lot on the quality of the
image source (is it from a 4x5 neg or 35mm neg, for example - the
difference between those is visible even in a BO print).  The real
question is whether whatever difference can be seen is worth the extra
work it takes to get it.  As Steve Karafylakkis pointed out, the first
90% is relatively easy, it takes a disproportionately large amount of
work to get that last 10%.  Most photographers understand that an 8x10
neg produces a better 8x10 print than a 35mm neg.  But how many are
willing to use an 8x10 camera to get it?  So we all make our
cost/benefit choices.

I used a 2200 for two years, mostly doing BO printing but also 
experimenting with QTR and various ink formulas, including modifying
curves, etc, and found I had little patience for it.  As for the
quality of results there were pros and cons, as with any system.

Then I got a 2400 and was thrilled to find a system that, with care,
can make very fine prints with a very easy and straightforward
approach (see article #9 at the link below for a description of the
workflow).  As Paul said, the color inks present a new kind of
challenge, but I found that with some experimenting the sweet spot ABW
settings can be found for various papers that reduce the color cast
issues enormously.  It isn't a perfect system, but it is very very
good.  I was never fully satisfied with my 2200 prints, but the 2400
is in a whole 'nother class and I love the results.  You'd have to
drag me kicking and screaming back to a 2200.

I admire anyone who has the patience and inclination to work with
RIPs, curves and densitometers/spectros and so on.  They certainly
deserve the extra benefit they get from it.  It's just not my cup of tea.

As for print longevity it is generally accepted, and Paul's tests have
verified, that the color inks fade faster than pure carbon.  But again
we're faced with theory vs practical reality.  Wilhelm rates
2400/K3/ABW prints at 110 to >200 years, depending on paper and
display method.  You have to decide if that is enough for you.  I've
had a K3 print on my windowsill torture test for 14 months now (some
direct sunlight every day).  There is a barely noticeable indication
of fading in a middle gray area (you have to really look for it).  It
is a tiny bit less than the fading on a 2200/UT7 print right beside it
that has been there for 21 months.  Between Wilhelm's ratings and my
own tests I have no qualms about selling these prints.  You can draw
your own conclusions.

The only inks that seem not to fade at all are the pure carbon ones. 
I have an Eboni BO print that is now three years on the windowsill and
shows no sign of fading.  Pure carbon multi ink prints are warmer and
yellower than most people like, so most ink sets are cooled with color
pigments in some manner.  Even the all gray Piezo K7 set has been
neutralized, so I suspect that it also will not have the same
longevity as pure carbon.

So there you have it: ease of use vs print quality, and print
longevity.  The 2400 offers a high quality solution with some
compromises.  We have to make our own decisions if those are
acceptable.  I hope this helps.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: My head is about to explode

2006-11-16 by fredila2

Chris,

I live in Calfornia where there are a gazillion high end printers and 
print services.  And my head is splitting too.

Nevertheless, I continue to read the daily digests on this forum and 
get something out of them.  Most of the "high end" comments are way 
over my head but occasionally something sticks that makes my work a bit 
better.

I've been using the 2200 for both black/white (with QTR) and color.  On 
the other hand I look forward to upgrading.  Why, I'm not really sure.  
Maybe it's so I can squeeze out just a little bit more.  Meanwhile I 
like to think that it's what the photograph says that counts 90% and 
that only 10% goes to printers, paper, ink and profiles.

Regards,

Fred


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "namibiajohnston" 
<chris@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I have been reading the discussions of late, particularly those 
> surrounding the 2400/2200. I really am at a loss as to what I should 
> do.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: My head is about to explode

2006-11-16 by Richard Smallfield

At 01:37 PM Thursday 11/16/2006, you wrote:
>I've been using the 2200 for both black/white (with QTR) and color. On 
>the other hand I look forward to upgrading. Why, I'm not really sure. 
>Maybe it's so I can squeeze out just a little bit more. Meanwhile I 
>like to think that it's what the photograph says that counts 90% and 
>that only 10% goes to printers, paper, ink and profiles.

Hi,
I use the 2100 too with UC inks and QTR and on matte papers the results are pretty damn good. I think it's the image that counts most ... most people wouldn't know a 2100 print from a 2400 print anyway.

Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)


   "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'." 
   --Yoda ('The Empire Strikes Back')

Re: [Digital BW] Re: My head is about to explode

2006-11-16 by Diane Fields

I have to say that this and a few other posts have connected with me.  I've 
been a member of the list for a number of years--but I, too, don't have the 
patience for a lot of the profile making, etc.--and have procrastinated 
about a dedicated ink set for years---from my old 1280 through the years 
with the 2200 which I got as soon as it came out.  I 'solved' my own 
problems with QTR, curves that I have found or were provided and keeping 
paper samples of gray wedges with various curve blends at hand.

But--I would really like to not deal with a RIP and to keep it as simple as 
possible after I process my monos.  I had decided to upgrade to the 
2400--and was about to hit the button to buy when the HP9180 was announced 
(I had discounted the Canon 13" pigment printer because it won't show up 
until 2007 sometime) and then the 3800.  I was sorely tempted by the 9180 at 
first but believe the 3800 is the printer that will work best for me.  Since 
its also a K3 printer but with a bit different algorithm I expect to find it 
about the same as the 2400 in most respects but allowing me to print larger 
when I choose--and still take advantage of the ABW--and I assume I will 
still be able to use QTR later if needed (assuming that it will be available 
eventually for the 3800).

Hope I'm not making a mistake--but I think not.  Still have my 2200 and 1280 
too *smile*.

Diane
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>

<various snips to keep relevant message short>
Then I got a 2400 and was thrilled to find a system that, with care,
can make very fine prints with a very easy and straightforward
approach (see article #9 at the link below for a description of the
workflow).  As Paul said, the color inks present a new kind of
challenge, but I found that with some experimenting the sweet spot ABW
settings can be found for various papers that reduce the color cast
issues enormously.  It isn't a perfect system, but it is very very
good.  I was never fully satisfied with my 2200 prints, but the 2400
is in a whole 'nother class and I love the results.  You'd have to
drag me kicking and screaming back to a 2200.

So there you have it: ease of use vs print quality, and print
longevity.  The 2400 offers a high quality solution with some
compromises.  We have to make our own decisions if those are
acceptable.  I hope this helps.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: My head is about to explode

2006-11-16 by wkm@kauaiphotos.biz

Ansel Adams once compared photography to music when he said.
"The negative is the score, The print is the performance". Yes you have to start with a good image, but, what you do with it is what counts. 

Walt
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Meanwhile I 
>like to think that it's what the photograph says that counts 90% and 
>that only 10% goes to printers, paper, ink and profiles.
>
>Regards,
>
>Fred

[Digital BW] Re: My head is about to explode

2006-11-16 by Clayton Jones

Hello Diane,

>I have to say that this and a few other posts have connected with 
>me.  I've been a member of the list for a number of years--but I, 
>too, don't have the patience for a lot of the profile making, 
>etc.
>...believe the 3800 is the printer that will work best for me.  
>Since its also a K3 printer but with a bit different algorithm I 
>expect to find it about the same as the 2400 in most respects but 
>allowing me to print larger when I choose--and still take advantage 
>of the ABW

I'm sure many of us are eager to hear about the 3800, so I hope you
will post a report here when you get yours.

If you are planning to use the simple workflow with it I am especially
interested to hear how that goes.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: My head is about to explode

2006-11-16 by Diane Fields

I'm not sure when I'll get mine--I have a deposit on it so that gives me a 
good shot at the early ones.  They are being shipped now in Europe.

Thought others might like this quick report from Chris, the tech at 
Inkjetart, who used one for about 12 hours and got all he/they could get out 
of it in that time before giving it back to Epson (this was at the Epson 
Print Academy in Salt Lake City, UT).
http://www.inkjetart.com/Epson_3800_Pro/report/index.html

There was a lot of question about the printing length and he confirmed that 
it will easily print 37.4.  He printed 2 cut sheets from Micro Ceramic 
Luster and printed them without problems.  There's more--and you can buy a 
sample, if they have any more, that they ran that day.

I will post my impressions of the 3800 when I get it.  I will be printing 
from a greyscale (but ARGB)--but I do a good bit of processing before 
reaching that stage.  I want to be able to do toned monos without using a 
RIP--which I use now, as I said.  I also print color--use mainly Epson 
Velvet, Hahnemuhle PR and Epson Premium Luster--but am going to try some 
other papers also--esp. those I can buy on a 3" core roll to cut 
occasionally (plus cut sheets in other sizes).  I have some new samples here 
and on the way.  Even if I revert to QTR at times, I will still have the 
newer K3 inks, printing on larger media capabilities, and (this is a 
something I'm looking forward to) less bronzing and gloss differential and 
metamerism.

Diane
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: My head is about to explode


Hello Diane,

>of the ABW

I'm sure many of us are eager to hear about the 3800, so I hope you
will post a report here when you get yours.

If you are planning to use the simple workflow with it I am especially
interested to hear how that goes.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

[Digital BW] Re: My head is about to explode

2006-11-16 by john dean

I've always loved that quote and its a beautiful metaphor. Did you
know he was a concert pianist in San Franciso first. I believe it was
Georgia Okeefe who said "why would you want to be a photographer when
you can play like that".

As to the music,..often with my clients I have to transpose or rewrite
the score before I can even attempt to perform it decently. 

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, wkm@... wrote:
>
> Ansel Adams once compared photography to music when he said.
> "The negative is the score, The print is the performance". Yes you
have to start with a good image, but, what you do with it is what counts. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Walt
> 
> >Meanwhile I 
> >like to think that it's what the photograph says that counts 90% and 
> >that only 10% goes to printers, paper, ink and profiles.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Fred
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: My head is about to explode

2006-11-16 by wkm@kauaiphotos.biz

Oh yes, and was priveledged to know him. He played the piano almost as well as he performed in the darkroom, although, not so much in his later years. Somehow I could never picture him stuck behind a piano in some concert hall. His "concert hall" was Yosemite and other beautifull places and his "music" has inspired many who came after. I think if he were with us today he would be a contributer to this and other forums. He was a very generous man. He almost always had 5 minutes for an admiring photographer who happened to cross his path. But, now I'm getting WAY off topic.

Walt
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>-----Original Message-----
>From: john dean [mailto:deanwork2003@...]
>Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 09:26 AM
>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Digital BW] Re: My head is about to explode
>
>I've always loved that quote and its a beautiful metaphor. Did you
>know he was a concert pianist in San Franciso first. I believe it was
>Georgia Okeefe who said "why would you want to be a photographer when
>you can play like that".
>
>As to the music,..often with my clients I have to transpose or rewrite
>the score before I can even attempt to perform it decently. 
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, wkm@... wrote:
>>
>> Ansel Adams once compared photography to music when he said.
>> "The negative is the score, The print is the performance". Yes you
>have to start with a good image, but, what you do with it is what counts. 
>> 
>> Walt
>> 
>> >Meanwhile I 
>> >like to think that it's what the photograph says that counts 90% and 
>> >that only 10% goes to printers, paper, ink and profiles.
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >
>> >Fred
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: My head is about to explode

2006-11-16 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 11/16/06 4:08:07 PM, wkm@... writes:


> I believe it was
> >Georgia Okeefe who said "why would you want to be a photographer when
> >you can play like that".
> 

A friend of my wife recently was in the our home studio for the first time, 
and looked at the 50 or 60 images of mine on the walls. She then remarked to my 
wife "why the hell does he work for some computer company if he can take 
photos like that?" I'm glad she finds my images inspiring, but I suspect she 
wasn't thinking about the practical end of it. <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


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