Digital BW, The Print

I presently use an Epson 2200 with IP6.  I am thinking about ordering the
Epson 3800, primarily to make prints on gloss or semi-gloss papers such as
Silver Rag, and the ability to make 16x20 prints, but with a border.  I see
that the 3800 comes with the Colorburst LE rip for an extra $200.  It
upgrades to Colorburst Pro for an additional $600, or a total of about what
IP6 costs for a 17" printer (the 4800).  

I have two unrelated questions for which I would appreciate any advice: (1),
is the Colorburst LE rip as good as IP6 for grayscale prints with canned
profiles, my main interest.  If it is not, I thought I would order the 3800
without the rip, and then get the IP6 rip (when available) if needed.  (2)
Does anyone know if the 3800 is less prone to clogging with OEM inks, than
the 4800, if it sits for a few weeks unused (I have never used one, but I
think the 4800 has some fairly extensive plumbing that may present a
clogging issue)? 

Thanks to the group for any advice!

Ken Carney

Speaking of IPv6, I had the opportunity to see a test print this past
weekend (on color glossy paper). Side by side comparison with the native
epson driver, I was extremely hard pressed to find a difference. Under what
circumstances does IP supposedly have an edge?

The operator couldn¹t really tell or show me anything above and beyond the
ability to make a print from IP.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I suspect that the operator may not have much experience. Expensive hardware
or software don’t allow for perfect prints all by themselves. And there are
some images that just don’t suffer with the Epson driver. If you rally want
to see what IP can do for you, or for prints, you need to run more than one
sample print. You may also try a large file and time the spool face for both
and multiply that times how many prints you make in a month. 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of FRD
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 10:11 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint Gets No Love?

 



Speaking of IPv6, I had the opportunity to see a test print this past
weekend (on color glossy paper). Side by side comparison with the native
epson driver, I was extremely hard pressed to find a difference. Under what
circumstances does IP supposedly have an edge?

The operator couldn¹t really tell or show me anything above and beyond the
ability to make a print from IP.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney" <kcarney1@...> 
wrote:
>
> I presently use an Epson 2200 with IP6.  I am thinking about ordering the
> Epson 3800, primarily to make prints on gloss or semi-gloss papers such as
> Silver Rag, and the ability to make 16x20 prints, but with a border.  I see
> that the 3800 comes with the Colorburst LE rip for an extra $200.  It
> upgrades to Colorburst Pro for an additional $600, or a total of about what
> IP6 costs for a 17" printer (the 4800). 

You can buy the ColorBurst rip photo edition at IT Supplies for $595.00.
You should download a 15 day trial version from their site as well as an ImagePrint version 
and see for yourself which looks best. That is the only real test to your problem of 
deciding which rip to buy.
With the lite version of ColorBurst you can't add profiles. I think that would not be so 
great.
I like the B&W prints from ColorBurst more so than ImagePrint when I tested them.

> 
> I have two unrelated questions for which I would appreciate any advice: (1),
> is the Colorburst LE rip as good as IP6 for grayscale prints with canned
> profiles, my main interest. 

That is what you are dealing with ImagePrint, canned profiles. You get what they give you 
you can't make new ones. 
With ColorBurst you can make your own. When I looked at ColorBurst I used the provided 
profiles.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney" <kcarney1@...> wrote:
>
> I presently use an Epson 2200 with IP6.  I am thinking about ordering the
> Epson 3800, primarily to make prints on gloss or semi-gloss papers such as
> Silver Rag, and the ability to make 16x20 prints, but with a border.  I see
> that the 3800 comes with the Colorburst LE rip for an extra $200.  It
> upgrades to Colorburst Pro for an additional $600, or a total of about what
> IP6 costs for a 17" printer (the 4800).  

Might want to use Epson's ABW mode first before deciding about a rip. ABW does a very nice 
job with B+W and it might be all you need. The Epson 2200 really needed a rip...the new 
printers with K3 inks need a rip less.

Also if you go with the Colorburst rip remember you'll need a spectro to build profiles...the 
X-rite Pulse with the UV filter is recomended....so that's another expense.

I don't think you'll need ImagePrint with the 3800.

And, speaking of the mythical beast, has anyone seen any hands-on 
reports, reviews, any further info at all?

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" 
<jvlist@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney" 
<kcarney1@> wrote:
> >
> > I presently use an Epson 2200 with IP6.  I am thinking about 
ordering the
> > Epson 3800, primarily to make prints on gloss or semi-gloss 
papers such as
> > Silver Rag, and the ability to make 16x20 prints, but with a 
border.  I see
> > that the 3800 comes with the Colorburst LE rip for an extra 
$200.  It
> > upgrades to Colorburst Pro for an additional $600, or a total of 
about what
> > IP6 costs for a 17" printer (the 4800).  
> 
> Might want to use Epson's ABW mode first before deciding about a 
rip. ABW does a very nice 
> job with B+W and it might be all you need. The Epson 2200 really 
needed a rip...the new 
> printers with K3 inks need a rip less.
> 
> Also if you go with the Colorburst rip remember you'll need a 
spectro to build profiles...the 
> X-rite Pulse with the UV filter is recomended....so that's another 
expense.

> 
> I don't think you'll need ImagePrint with the 3800.
>

>... ABW does a very nice job with B+W and it might be all you need ...

But the only way to get the excess color out of the B&W image is to either
put carbon in the yellow position or use a rip.  The ABW mode prints in the
2400 with MIS EZW in the Y position make the smoothest prints I've seen.
But, ABW does not give one much control over the tone curves if one wants to
get fancy with, for example, split tones.  And, of course, you lose the full
color printing ability.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

In a message dated 11/1/06 12:20:52 PM, lwangelin@... writes:


> 
> You can buy the ColorBurst rip photo edition at IT Supplies for $595.00.
> 

I don't really see that a RIP is needed to get excellent B&W from the 3800. I 
just profiled it, and printed, and the results were excellent. I'll test some 
more during PhotoPlus, but first pass results were pretty impressive.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/1/06 2:30:50 PM, stevekphoto@... writes:


> And, speaking of the mythical beast, has anyone seen any hands-on
> reports, reviews, any further info at all?
> 

Its certainly not mythical, though there are some things about it that are 
different enough to make it quite unique. The driver installation process, for 
starters, bares no resemblance to previous drivers, and the inking up process, 
compared to the lever lifting, lever lowering extravaganza on the 4000 two 
years ago, is as simple as sticking the carts in, and waiting until its ready to 
print. Results I'll have more to say on after having the time to do more 
printing.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You say you do not need the RIP for B&W do you need the RIP for color?

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
  Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 7:16 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 3800 advice?



  In a message dated 11/1/06 12:20:52 PM, lwangelin@... writes:

  >
  > You can buy the ColorBurst rip photo edition at IT Supplies for $595.00.
  >

  I don't really see that a RIP is needed to get excellent B&W from the
3800. I
  just profiled it, and printed, and the results were excellent. I'll test
some
  more during PhotoPlus, but first pass results were pretty impressive.

  C. David Tobie
  Product Technology Manager
  ColorVision Business Division
  DataColor Inc.
  CDTobie@...
  www.colorvision.com

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll be looking forward to your report, David, thanks. While you're 
at it: one of my main interests is finding a printer that can do 
good fault-free negs on transparency film-is this the one? if 
Epson's claims re: the new dithering algorithm stand up, we may have 
a winner. If you get the chance can you run a piece of film through 
it and tells us what it looks like under a lupe? Thanks.

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... 
wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/1/06 2:30:50 PM, stevekphoto@... writes:
> 
> 
> > And, speaking of the mythical beast, has anyone seen any hands-on
> > reports, reviews, any further info at all?
> > 
> 
> Its certainly not mythical, though there are some things about it 
that are 
> different enough to make it quite unique. The driver installation 
process, for 
> starters, bares no resemblance to previous drivers, and the inking 
up process, 
> compared to the lever lifting, lever lowering extravaganza on the 
4000 two 
> years ago, is as simple as sticking the carts in, and waiting 
until its ready to 
> print. Results I'll have more to say on after having the time to 
do more 

> printing.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In a message dated 11/1/2006 10:24:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
CDTobie@... writes:

I don't  really see that a RIP is needed to get excellent B&W from the 3800. 
I  
just profiled it, and printed, and the results were excellent. I'll test  
some 
more during PhotoPlus, but first pass results were pretty  impressive.




Is that any different from the 4800, or is print quality the same?
 
Richard (Brooklyn)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> >... ABW does a very nice job with B+W and it might be all you need ...
> 
> But the only way to get the excess color out of the B&W image is to either
> put carbon in the yellow position or use a rip.  The ABW mode prints in the
> 2400 with MIS EZW in the Y position make the smoothest prints I've seen.
> Paul

I forgot about that! In that case use either QTR or IJC for B+W.

Ah come on John, don't be so agreeable <G>.
I'll bet you are right, for very many people the ABW driver will be dandy, and no further 
expensive toys will be necessary beyond the printer purchase out of the box. Particularly 
with Epson papers.
Might not be my choice, but why complicate things for people with less obsessive 
concerns.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@> 
wrote:

> >
> > >... ABW does a very nice job with B+W and it might be all you need ...
> > 
> > But the only way to get the excess color out of the B&W image is to either
> > put carbon in the yellow position or use a rip.  The ABW mode prints in the
> > 2400 with MIS EZW in the Y position make the smoothest prints I've seen.
> > Paul
> 
> I forgot about that! In that case use either QTR or IJC for B+W.
>

In a message dated 11/1/06 11:08:07 PM, gcwagner@... writes:


> You say you do not need the RIP for B&W do you need the RIP for color?
> 

Even less...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/1/06 11:32:58 PM, CorrPro96@... writes:


> 
> 
> Is that any different from the 4800, or is print quality the same?
> 

Dithering is mostly something to look at through a loop. I'll have to do some 
gloss printing to see if the dither is noticably better in gloss prints. With 
fine art matte prints, both color and B&W, the results are great... but not 
noticably "greater" than the 4800. The real differences are: smaller footprint, 
smaller price tag, smaller (but not small) carts, and BOTH BLACKS AT ONCE 
(though there is a purging process, unlike HP and Canon double black systems.) 
And cheaper build... this is not a small wide format printer, its a large 
desktop printer, more a wide 2400 than a smaller 4800. The front drop down door 
latch was broken before the printer had been out of the box a day... to withstand 
the rush of show floor crowds, I had to remove the drop down door entirely.

One difference to note is that art paper prints coming out for the 3800 
(especially B&W prints, the topic of this list) look TERRIBLE; the blacks run way 
out into the shadow areas, and show major bronzing. You would think you'd done 
something wrong... but 20 minutes later, the bronzing is gone, and the shadow 
detail has magically appeared. It will take some getting used to.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/1/06 11:34:04 PM, stevekphoto@... writes:


> I'll be looking forward to your report, David, thanks. While you're
> at it: one of my main interests is finding a printer that can do
> good fault-free negs on transparency film-is this the one? if
> Epson's claims re: the new dithering algorithm stand up, we may have
> a winner. If you get the chance can you run a piece of film through
> it and tells us what it looks like under a lupe? Thanks.
> 

That would require a piece of film, and a loupe... I carry a lot with me when 
I travel, but not everything!

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/2/06 12:01:25 AM, jvlist@... writes:


> > >... ABW does a very nice job with B+W and it might be all you need ...
> >
> > But the only way to get the excess color out of the B&W image is to either
> > put carbon in the yellow position or use a rip.  The ABW mode prints in 
> the
> > 2400 with MIS EZW in the Y position make the smoothest prints I've seen.
> > Paul
> 
> I forgot about that! In that case use either QTR or IJC for B+W.
> 
Not necessarily, PrintFIX PRO does a great job profiling the newer Epsons 
with Paul's yellow replacement, or yellow and grays replacement, for B&W 
printing. May be a while before thats available for the 3800, however.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CDTobie@... wrote:

> One difference to note is that art paper prints coming out for the 3800 
> (especially B&W prints, the topic of this list) look TERRIBLE; the blacks run way 
> out into the shadow areas, and show major bronzing. You would think you'd done 
> something wrong... but 20 minutes later, the bronzing is gone, and the shadow 
> detail has magically appeared. It will take some getting used to.

The price we pay for for faster and faster printers and 
coatings not keeping up with the speed on printing time. Makes 
you wonder if there's still some quality gain possible if you 
do the same printing slower.
My first impression on the Photokina was that the 3800 prints 
had a more analogue photo quality and I like the quality of 
the K3 models more. Could it be what you describe here or 
could it be the new dithering that gives that image?


Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

In a message dated 11/3/06 6:58:46 AM, E.Dinkla@... writes:


> My first impression on the Photokina was that the 3800 prints
> had a more analogue photo quality and I like the quality of
> the K3 models more. Could it be what you describe here or
> could it be the new dithering that gives that image?
> 
Neil Snape described the new dithering of the new wide format HPs as being 
'more like film grain', and I replied that I hoped he meant 'through a loupe' as 
I would not be pleased with visible grain of any type. The B&W images HP 
chose to display were all large shots from small film, so any inkjet dithering was 
lost in the actual image grain. But in my own printing with the Z 3100, I 
found the new dither to be as unnoticable as the new 3800 dither. Canon's new 
wideformats are a bit coarser in dither than the Epson K3s, but again, only with 
your nose to the paper at best, and magnification for most viewers. We seem to 
be past the point where this is a viewing distance phenomonon...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll bet you can find several different sample packs there free for 
the asking, that include a sheet of film. 

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... 
wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/1/06 11:34:04 PM, stevekphoto@... writes:
> 
> 
> > I'll be looking forward to your report, David, thanks. While 
you're
> > at it: one of my main interests is finding a printer that can do
> > good fault-free negs on transparency film-is this the one? if
> > Epson's claims re: the new dithering algorithm stand up, we may 
have
> > a winner. If you get the chance can you run a piece of film 
through
> > it and tells us what it looks like under a lupe? Thanks.
> > 
> 
> That would require a piece of film, and a loupe... I carry a lot 
with me when 

> I travel, but not everything!
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

DAvid, could you elaborate on this??  What paper in particular--
sounds as though you mean a luster paper since you mention bronzing, 
but I usually mean a matte when I say fine art paper.  Whichever--it 
will def. take some getting used to. 

 I have a 3800 on order from inkjetart with a deposit so hope they 
start shipping soon--they have in Europe.  I'm upgrading from a 2200 
and my one concern was about printing length.  I since know that the 
3800 will print to 37.4" but it means cutting paper to get 16 x 24 
prints from it.  I plan to start a thread asking how others would 
deal with this---since it does not have a roll paper option and I 
never used my roll/cutter with the 2200).

Diane




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... 
wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/1/06 11:32:58 PM, CorrPro96@... writes:
>> One difference to note is that art paper prints coming out for the 
3800 
> (especially B&W prints, the topic of this list) look TERRIBLE; the 
blacks run way 
> out into the shadow areas, and show major bronzing. You would think 
you'd done 
> something wrong... but 20 minutes later, the bronzing is gone, and 
the shadow 

> detail has magically appeared. It will take some getting used to.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In a message dated 11/12/06 9:50:00 PM, picnic@... writes:


> DAvid, could you elaborate on this??  What paper in particular--
> sounds as though you mean a luster paper since you mention bronzing,
> but I usually mean a matte when I say fine art paper.  Whichever--it
> will def. take some getting used to.
> 
At least I'm sure I'm the right David on this one... one of the advantages of 
being called CD on line is it weeds me out from all the Davids. 

Yes, I meant matte media, I used several, but most clearly in mind are 
Entrada Bright and Entrada Natural. The 3800, through a well linearized profile, 
produced shadow zones (here I mean really deep areas, not 3/4 tones) that were 
totally black... to the point that I nearly tossed the print and started the 
profiling process over again. But 20 minutes later, after drydown, the print was 
as expected. Entrada has a very high ink limit, so this is not due to excess 
inking on a media that can't handle it. 

There is also, at the same time, a form of bronzing (though it is shiny, it 
does not have a bronze or purple tint, just a sheen) that is equally disturbing 
in the dark areas. This, too, disappears with time. It made me think of my 
furnituremaking days, when I would coat a completed piece of furniture (say a 
month's work) with shellac when the humidy was high... and watch the entire 
piece turn a milky white. I would hold my breath, as the finish slowly became 
transparent again... unless it didn't! With that type of trauma in my past, 
waiting for shadow detail to appear, and bronzing to disappear is not pleasant; 
certainly not akin to the pleasant process of watching the image appear in the 
tray in a darkroom.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]