Digital BW, The Print

I've been doing a lot of setup here with the K3s and StudioPrint. This
is on photo papers with PK. For MK prints I much prefer the quads. But
for this I think the standard to hit or exceed is the Epson ABW driver.
I have finally slightly bettered that just a bit with careful dot
choice, full GCR, and careful linearizarion and CMYK profiling. Then
the worlflow is simply to drop an RGB file in the RIP, toned or not,
and let it do it's CMYK thing. With a neutral file there is very
little Y ink, and C+M presence only to neutralize per the profile. The
advantages are less dottiness, and easy RGB hue control in the file,
smooth and neutral ramp. With RGB profiles made from quads, I've even
replicated the Cone warm and selenium hues by assigning them first.
I'm not particularly recommending this, I just recall a lot of
curiousity about what SP may do with the K3s back when they came out.
I'm curious why I've seen no QTR vrs ABW reports with the K3s, I would
think a careful setup may compete well with it, and of course allow
the complete removal of Y if desired.
I think all of the above could be applied to any good RIP and CMYK
profiler. It's interesting that only 3 years ago or so, profilers
could not make such a neutral ramp as B&W workers require, of course
the drivers sucked as well.
Naturally I'm dying to do all this on the new Innova and/or Hanna
paper when I get my hands on some, if not Silver Rag.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> I've been doing a lot of setup here with the K3s and StudioPrint. This
> is on photo papers with PK. For MK prints I much prefer the quads. But
> for this I think the standard to hit or exceed is the Epson ABW 
driver.
> I have finally slightly bettered that just a bit with careful dot


[snip]

Thanks, so must be Epson spent some time building the ABW driver so 
that they got it pretty close to correct.

> I'm curious why I've seen no QTR vrs ABW reports with the K3s, I would
> think a careful setup may compete well with it, and of course allow
> the complete removal of Y if desired.
> I think all of the above could be applied to any good RIP and CMYK
> profiler. It's interesting that only 3 years ago or so, profilers
> could not make such a neutral ramp as B&W workers require, of course
> the drivers sucked as well.
> Naturally I'm dying to do all this on the new Innova and/or Hanna
> paper when I get my hands on some, if not Silver Rag.
> Tyler
>
 I did it both MK and PK but primarily to spray only K,LK and LLK, no 
color. Initially to compare to Iquad on a 1290. Basically with MK, the 
K3s are the same dilution as iQuads except you miss something like L-
LLK. The hue is pretty warm. I find the print acceptable on HPR 
provided one likes the warmth. Smoothness is not up to iQuad, 
specifically in the highlights. Measured Dmax is much similar to 
iQuads, "apparent" one seems less (due to neutrality ?). A 4800 K3s 
brings up many more details than a 1290 iQuads, and the print 
is "crisper". 

On PK, same thing : only the 3 Ks. On ESMP, this is a real winner for 
me at all levels. For some reason linerasation is far easier with PK, 
like if the dilutions were meant for it. I'm expecting H-Fine Art Pearl 
to test on it. Other Epson papers are not even to be considered : the 
prints are showing bronzing to a disturbing level.

I have not even tried ABW : I dislike the idea of color dots.

Olivier

I think it has more to do with lost revenue and/or trying to lock out the
competition. The new K3s and the X800 printers are so much better than a few
years ago that many RIPs may be looking for share holders very soon.
Although I did see that Image Print, and I am sure Studio Print can as well,
provide still better detail in the Dmax with MK and still give a good solid
black. Sometimes while you can make a better print, you just need to move
on. 

With changes daily with Qimage, ability within QTR, better is just a hard
days testing away. 


Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street
Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
http://ericneilsenphotography.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
> Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 10:39 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: K3: RIP vrs ABW
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@...> wrote:
> >
> > I've been doing a lot of setup here with the K3s and StudioPrint. This
> > is on photo papers with PK. For MK prints I much prefer the quads. But
> > for this I think the standard to hit or exceed is the Epson ABW
> driver.
> > I have finally slightly bettered that just a bit with careful dot
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Thanks, so must be Epson spent some time building the ABW driver so
> that they got it pretty close to correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>

More likely the Edward Demings mantra that is well practiced throughout
Japan:  continually strive to build a better product, in a better way = more
satisfied customers, more sales, lower costs of production, more profits and
more jobs.

> From: Eric Neilsen <e.neilsen2@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 00:19:25 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: K3: RIP vrs ABW
> 
> I think it has more to do with lost revenue and/or trying to lock out the
> competition. The new K3s and the X800 printers are so much better than a few
> years ago that many RIPs may be looking for share holders very soon.
> Although I did see that Image Print, and I am sure Studio Print can as well,
> provide still better detail in the Dmax with MK and still give a good solid
> black. Sometimes while you can make a better print, you just need to move
> on. 
> 
> With changes daily with Qimage, ability within QTR, better is just a hard
> days testing away.
> 
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 4101 Commerce Street
> Suite 9
> Dallas, TX 75226
> http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
>> Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 10:39 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: K3: RIP vrs ABW
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
>> <tyler@...> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've been doing a lot of setup here with the K3s and StudioPrint. This
>>> is on photo papers with PK. For MK prints I much prefer the quads. But
>>> for this I think the standard to hit or exceed is the Epson ABW
>> driver.
>>> I have finally slightly bettered that just a bit with careful dot
>> 
>> 
>> [snip]
>> 
>> Thanks, so must be Epson spent some time building the ABW driver so
>> that they got it pretty close to correct.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@...> wrote:
...
> I have not even tried ABW : I dislike the idea of color dots.

Myself as well. But even with your QTR tests, if you wanted to neutralize that warmth you'd 
have to introduce some. I see it as a way to make B&W prints on photo surfaces and PK, that, 
for now, will satisfy some people's needs.
Of course something like a K7 that would do it would be much much preferable, but for now 
here we are. And of course, more severe toning requires color ink.

Also, my post was certainly not meant to be a glowing report of ABW, in fact I found it barely 
acceptable. I used it as a marker point to exceed. 
Given the variety of papers we all want to try, and the different taste in hue amongst artists, a 
color management approach to this seemed worth exploring.

Tyler
www.custom-digital.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
>
> More likely the Edward Demings mantra that is well practiced throughout
> Japan:  continually strive to build a better product, in a better way = more
> satisfied customers, more sales, lower costs of production, more profits and
> more jobs.

and in their spare time they're all out feeding poor kids and tending to hospice patients and 
shoveling up toxic waste dumps all smiling and singing.
That Edward, he's such a kidder!
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@...> wrote:
>
> More likely the Edward Demings mantra that is well practiced 
throughout
> Japan:  continually strive to build a better product, in a better way 
= more
> satisfied customers, more sales, lower costs of production, more 
profits and
> more jobs.
> 
> 


I have to agree with Steve, though they are taking their sweet time 
applying that. Hopefully all this will change with the new competition 
that's right around the corner.

Of course something like a K7 that would do it would be much much
preferable, but for now 
> here we are. And of course, more severe toning requires color ink.
> 
 
> Tyler
> www.custom-digital.com
>

--------------------

Yes. That is what I am waiting for before even going down the K3 road.
Jon said he is working on a K7 for glossy media. I do hope it happens
before the fall. Now that would be spectacular. With the new machines
it may even be a K8  :-).

I wouldn't be concerned about using the cyan channels of the Epson K3
to neutralize the carbon though, the cyan is very stable from what
I've read, and as long as you avoid yellow and a lot of light magenta
you should be in pretty good shape for longevity.

In my brief tests with ABW mode I didn't see any "color dots" on Crane
Silver Rag. I thought right out of the box it did quite well. But a
dedicated monochrome set for glossy is what what we're headed for
eventually. Someone will certainly do it. 

As to that lawsuit, Epson got what they deserved. I just finished four
big prints that envolved a lot of yellow and my yellow light was
flashing the whole time. I used to change early because I was always
afraid of air in the lines or a large wrecked print. Their scheme
worked on me and countless others. I don't think $45.00 or whatever it
is would cover it. As usual the lawyers win. I hope Epson learned
their lesson on that one.

John





>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen "
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> ...I did see that Image Print, and I am sure Studio Print can as well,
> provide still better detail in the Dmax with MK and still give a
good solid
> black...

Eric, where did you see that?
Tyler

> ...
> > I have not even tried ABW : I dislike the idea of color dots.
> 
> Myself as well...

> ... but for now here we are. 

Not for those who use the MIS solutions.  I've been printing on matte and
glossy papers for years without changing the inks and with no pure color
dots.  The UT2, UT7, and now UT-3D (beta) generate the glossy black with the
dark grays.  The dmax on Crane SR is the same as if PK were used.  By using
the same inks the gloss differential is also virtually eliminated.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> > ...
> > > I have not even tried ABW : I dislike the idea of color dots.
> > 
> > Myself as well...
> 
> > ... but for now here we are. 
> 
> Not for those who use the MIS solutions...

Yes, sorry, should have mentioned that.
Tyler

Tyler, I needed to make a color print larger than I could print with my set
up; 4800. I am lucky to have a friend that just purchased a 7800 and also
had IP. We first made some test prints on the Innova Photo Smooth with the
Epson driver with the profile I got from Jim Doyle.  It looked ok, but it
took forever to spool. Then we tried the same file with IP. 

We went ahead and downloaded the profile from IP for Innova, I forget the
new number system that Color Byte is using, but I think it was one meant for
mixed light.  Since I have had IP for three years, I expected the detail to
once again come out in the dmax areas, but this was my first look at a side
by side with the new X800 series. I was not disappointed. The down side is
now that customer will want to see that in all her prints, so I may need to
pony up the fee for my IP and add the 4800. The print was over all smoother
than the Epson driver as well. 

I have IP from my 7000 that will run on the 7600 as well but I don't have
one or access to one with MK. 
 
I guess I have just not wanted to spend the extra money on more upgrades.
With new printers on the horizon, and RIPs that I still haven't fully
integrated into the workflow already loaded on the computer, time is lacking
in my day. Some times I feel this is one big money pit but there is great
promise as well. I grew up out in San Jose, CA aka Silicon Valley and was
told back then (that was in 1979) that I should give up film and start going
digital. Glad I didn't but the times are a changing. ... 

Eric

Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street
Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
http://ericneilsenphotography.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyler
> Boley
> Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:59 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: K3: RIP vrs ABW
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen "
> <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
> >
> > ...I did see that Image Print, and I am sure Studio Print can as well,
> > provide still better detail in the Dmax with MK and still give a
> good solid
> > black...
> 
> Eric, where did you see that?
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen "
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> ...We first made some test prints on the Innova Photo Smooth with the
> Epson driver with the profile I got from Jim Doyle.  It looked ok,
but it
> took forever to spool. Then we tried the same file with IP. 
> 
> We went ahead and downloaded the profile from IP for Innova, I
forget the
> new number system that Color Byte is using, but I think it was one
meant for
> mixed light.  Since I have had IP for three years, I expected the
detail to
> once again come out in the dmax areas, but this was my first look at
a side
> by side with the new X800 series. I was not disappointed...

That's what I was curious about. I guess I'd be more interested in how
IP compares to ABW with a grayscale file, rather than the standard RGB
driver and an RGB profile... 
Particularly now that IP has eliminated the use of the lightest K ink.

>The down side is
> now that customer will want to see that in all her prints, so I may
need to
> pony up the fee for my IP and add the 4800...

Well, see if she can guarantee you enough additional work to justify
the cost of the upgrade <G>.
Tyler

Tyler,

I'm using the MIS K4 inks (minus the LLK) in my 4000 and driving this  
with the ColorBurst X-Photo RIP.  I made a CMYK grayscale profile for  
the new Innova F-Type Gloss for use with the 4000/ColorBurst RIP and  
the B&W prints are virtually indistinguishable from the Epson ABW  
mode neutral prints on Innova F-Type from my Epson 2400, using the  
full K4 inkset (with the LLK) and a QTR Create-icc print space  
profile up front.  I like the slightly softer gloss one gets on these  
new hybrid papers with the MIS K4 inks, compared to the Epson K3  
inks.  You may give up a little measurable dmax (I get about 2.3 on  
the Innova F-Type, but I think K3 might give you 2.4), but visually  
the slight glare reduction with the K4 looks better.  Bottom line  
with respect to your question, both ABW and a RIP look great.

Carl

On Apr 22, 2006, at 3:53 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen "
> <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>>
>> ...We first made some test prints on the Innova Photo Smooth with the
>> Epson driver with the profile I got from Jim Doyle.  It looked ok,
> but it
>> took forever to spool. Then we tried the same file with IP.
>>
>> We went ahead and downloaded the profile from IP for Innova, I
> forget the
>> new number system that Color Byte is using, but I think it was one
> meant for
>> mixed light.  Since I have had IP for three years, I expected the
> detail to
>> once again come out in the dmax areas, but this was my first look at
> a side
>> by side with the new X800 series. I was not disappointed...
>
> That's what I was curious about. I guess I'd be more interested in how
> IP compares to ABW with a grayscale file, rather than the standard RGB
> driver and an RGB profile...
> Particularly now that IP has eliminated the use of the lightest K ink.
>
>> The down side is
>> now that customer will want to see that in all her prints, so I may
> need to
>> pony up the fee for my IP and add the 4800...
>
> Well, see if she can guarantee you enough additional work to justify
> the cost of the upgrade <G>.
> Tyler

She has been good to me, so...

I didn't want to impose too much on my friend. He hadn't even run a roll
through it yet when I stopped by. I too would love to see that. Now that he
has had it bit longer than just a week, I'll ask him and see what he has to
say.

Eric

Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
214-827-8301
http://ericneilsenphotography.com
 
Skype : ejprinter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Tyler Boley
> Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 2:53 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: K3: RIP vrs ABW
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric
> Neilsen "
> <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
> >
> > ...We first made some test prints on the Innova Photo Smooth
> with the
> > Epson driver with the profile I got from Jim Doyle.  It
> looked ok,
> but it
> > took forever to spool. Then we tried the same file with IP.
> >
> > We went ahead and downloaded the profile from IP for Innova,
> I
> forget the
> > new number system that Color Byte is using, but I think it
> was one
> meant for
> > mixed light.  Since I have had IP for three years, I expected
> the
> detail to
> > once again come out in the dmax areas, but this was my first
> look at
> a side
> > by side with the new X800 series. I was not disappointed...
> 
> That's what I was curious about. I guess I'd be more interested
> in how
> IP compares to ABW with a grayscale file, rather than the
> standard RGB
> driver and an RGB profile...
> Particularly now that IP has eliminated the use of the lightest
> K ink.
> 
> >The down side is
> > now that customer will want to see that in all her prints, so
> I may
> need to
> > pony up the fee for my IP and add the 4800...
> 
> Well, see if she can guarantee you enough additional work to
> justify
> the cost of the upgrade <G>.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
> visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be
> removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
> digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic
> posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group
> rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions
> of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and
> Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/file
> s/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT
> THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT,
> INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES,
> INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
> HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
...
> Also, my post was certainly not meant to be a glowing report of ABW,
in fact I found it barely 
> acceptable.

I'll take that back. The test I just did on Premium Luster with all
the proper settings and 2880 looked pretty good.
However 1440 does not look that good to me, and some tests on other
papers with MK had a non uniform hue I found objectionable, I suspect
one would have to go warm or cold with it to make it attractive.
Tyler

Well that's the thing. It's hard to achieve a perfect dead on neutral.
You think it is ok, then you compare it to a quad and you say, na, not
quite. 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> ...
> > Also, my post was certainly not meant to be a glowing report of ABW,
> in fact I found it barely 
> > acceptable.
> 
> I'll take that back. The test I just did on Premium Luster with all
> the proper settings and 2880 looked pretty good.
> However 1440 does not look that good to me, and some tests on other
> papers with MK had a non uniform hue I found objectionable, I suspect
> one would have to go warm or cold with it to make it attractive.
> Tyler
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> Well that's the thing. It's hard to achieve a perfect dead on neutral.
> You think it is ok, then you compare it to a quad and you say, na, not
> quite. 
> 
> 
> 


You could always use a more neutral ink in place of the Epson warm
inks, find the correct setting and the ABW driver shouldn't put down
any color. Of course the more neutral inks would also make it easier
to get a nice print through the RIP too.

The yellow ink is actually comparatively stable.

As for the flashing ink lights I welcome their approach.  A flashing ink
light does not say it's empty and you're at risk of getting air in the
lines.  It simply says "make sure you have a new cartridge ready".  In other
words, if you don't have one to hand then it gives you ample warning to go
out and procure one so that you are not left shorthanded and unable to
complete required tasks.  Very helpful for those that don't like warehousing
a stock of ink cartridges.  Only when the ink light is solid does the
printer stop printing and require you to replace the cartridge, as outlined
clearly in the manual.  By then you've hopefully noted the warning and have
a new cartridge to hand.  The only debate is whether the light goes SOLID
too early.  And it is there that there is a valid argument for being
somewhat conservative with residual ink in the cartridge so that there is no
risk of getting air in the lines.  Epson has never said change the cartridge
when we warn you it's getting low.  The only debate is whether they are too
conservative with respect to residual ink in expired rather than partially
expired cartridges.

> From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:28:11 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: K3: RIP vrs ABW
> 
>  Of course something like a K7 that would do it would be much much
> preferable, but for now
>> here we are. And of course, more severe toning requires color ink.
>> 
>  
>> Tyler
>> www.custom-digital.com
>> 
> 
> --------------------
> 
> Yes. That is what I am waiting for before even going down the K3 road.
> Jon said he is working on a K7 for glossy media. I do hope it happens
> before the fall. Now that would be spectacular. With the new machines
> it may even be a K8  :-).
> 
> I wouldn't be concerned about using the cyan channels of the Epson K3
> to neutralize the carbon though, the cyan is very stable from what
> I've read, and as long as you avoid yellow and a lot of light magenta
> you should be in pretty good shape for longevity.
> 
> In my brief tests with ABW mode I didn't see any "color dots" on Crane
> Silver Rag. I thought right out of the box it did quite well. But a
> dedicated monochrome set for glossy is what what we're headed for
> eventually. Someone will certainly do it.
> 
> As to that lawsuit, Epson got what they deserved. I just finished four
> big prints that envolved a lot of yellow and my yellow light was
> flashing the whole time. I used to change early because I was always
> afraid of air in the lines or a large wrecked print. Their scheme
> worked on me and countless others. I don't think $45.00 or whatever it
> is would cover it. As usual the lawyers win. I hope Epson learned
> their lesson on that one.
> 
> John

Hello John,

>Well that's the thing. It's hard to achieve a perfect dead on 
>neutral.  You think it is ok, then you compare it to a quad and 
>you say, na, not quite. 

Exactly what I've found.  But each paper seems to have a sweet spot
that looks good, and it's easier to find on some papers than others.

I've tried a number of approaches and have yet to find the perfect one
- there's always some sort of trade-off.  Over all I'm quite happy
with K3-ABW.  Paul hinted once that he would like to make a toned
grayscale set that would work in the ABW mode.  THAT would be really
nice...


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton, 


> >Well that's the thing. It's hard to achieve a perfect dead on
> >neutral.  You think it is ok, then you compare it to a quad and
> >you say, na, not quite.
> 
> Exactly what I've found.  But each paper seems to have a sweet spot
> that looks good, and it's easier to find on some papers than others.

I agree totally.  The midtones have to look good with the paper white.  I
increasingly try to have the midtones between the paper white and the dmax
black.  This minimizes the color cross-overs.


> ...  Over all I'm quite happy with K3-ABW. 
> Paul hinted once that he would like to make a toned
> grayscale set that would work in the ABW mode.  
> THAT would be really nice...
> 

Got to get the UT-3D going first -- the idea is to leapfrog Epson at a
fraction of the price.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I agree Clayton and optical brighteners seem to make it more
difficult. More and more I'm thinking its more trouble that its worth
and I just want to stay with a neutral inkset for neutral output. But
for a universal printer with universal media, it isn't always that easy.

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Clayton, 
> 
> 
> > >Well that's the thing. It's hard to achieve a perfect dead on
> > >neutral.  You think it is ok, then you compare it to a quad and
> > >you say, na, not quite.
> > 
> > Exactly what I've found.  But each paper seems to have a sweet spot
> > that looks good, and it's easier to find on some papers than others.
> 
> I agree totally.  The midtones have to look good with the paper
white.  I
> increasingly try to have the midtones between the paper white and
the dmax

> black.  This minimizes the color cross-overs.
> 
> 
> > ...  Over all I'm quite happy with K3-ABW. 
> > Paul hinted once that he would like to make a toned
> > grayscale set that would work in the ABW mode.  
> > THAT would be really nice...
> > 
> 
> Got to get the UT-3D going first -- the idea is to leapfrog Epson at a
> fraction of the price.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>
> I agree Clayton and optical brighteners seem to make it more
> difficult. More and more I'm thinking its more trouble that its worth
> and I just want to stay with a neutral inkset for neutral output. But
> for a universal printer with universal media, it isn't always that easy.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> >
> > Clayton, 
> > 
> > 
> > > >Well that's the thing. It's hard to achieve a perfect dead on
> > > >neutral.  You think it is ok, then you compare it to a quad and
> > > >you say, na, not quite.
> > > 
> > > Exactly what I've found.  But each paper seems to have a sweet spot
> > > that looks good, and it's easier to find on some papers than others.
> > 
> > I agree totally.  The midtones have to look good with the paper
> white.  I
> > increasingly try to have the midtones between the paper white and
> the dmax
> > black.  This minimizes the color cross-overs.
> > 
> > 
> > > ...  Over all I'm quite happy with K3-ABW. 
> > > Paul hinted once that he would like to make a toned
> > > grayscale set that would work in the ABW mode.  
> > > THAT would be really nice...
> > > 
> > 
> > Got to get the UT-3D going first -- the idea is to leapfrog Epson at a
> > fraction of the price.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

Let's try this again...

How about 5 grays, plus CMY or whatever you choose to do the color
toning. The CMY would make it easy to keep a "normal" CMYK profile
workflow. I know, this is heresy, but it does allow for soft proof,
and color toning in Photoshop. Shouldn't be a problem to set up with
many of the better color RIPs.

not heresy at all. Doing it here, but keeping the quad machine alive
and well too.
How about making that CMY in your setup just the light inks? Of course
you have no choice with the Y, but still...
A small gamut CMY would be even better, I still think it's those high
saturation dots, no matter how spares, that are a problem.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:

>
> Let's try this again...
> 
> How about 5 grays, plus CMY or whatever you choose to do the color
> toning. The CMY would make it easy to keep a "normal" CMYK profile
> workflow. I know, this is heresy, but it does allow for soft proof,
> and color toning in Photoshop. Shouldn't be a problem to set up with
> many of the better color RIPs.
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> not heresy at all. Doing it here, but keeping the quad machine alive
> and well too.
> How about making that CMY in your setup just the light inks? Of course
> you have no choice with the Y, but still...
> A small gamut CMY would be even better, I still think it's those high
> saturation dots, no matter how spares, that are a problem.
> Tyler
> 
>

Yes that's what I was thinking, the light colors, or maybe even
diluted light colors should work very well. And if you had 5 black
inks, you should be able to get all (or more) of the tonality that the
quads use. Or use a double 4 black ink set so that you had both photo
and matte black installed. Actually for matte paper I would still run
all 5 blacks, but gloss would be only 4.

And depending on the light inks used, you can still get a decent sized
gamut if you use them at full mixture. I tried making a 4 color
comparison once with the cmYK and CMYK, the plots were different but
the over all volume was fairly similar. I wouldn't suggest trying to
pass this off as a full color printer, but for the occasional B/W with
some selective color it should have been OK.

Greg wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@...> wrote:
>> not heresy at all. Doing it here, but keeping the quad machine alive
>> and well too.
>> How about making that CMY in your setup just the light inks? Of course
>> you have no choice with the Y, but still...
>> A small gamut CMY would be even better, I still think it's those high
>> saturation dots, no matter how spares, that are a problem.
>> Tyler
>>
>>
> 
> Yes that's what I was thinking, the light colors, or maybe even
> diluted light colors should work very well. And if you had 5 black
> inks, you should be able to get all (or more) of the tonality that the
> quads use. Or use a double 4 black ink set so that you had both photo
> and matte black installed. Actually for matte paper I would still run
> all 5 blacks, but gloss would be only 4.
> 
> And depending on the light inks used, you can still get a decent sized
> gamut if you use them at full mixture. I tried making a 4 color
> comparison once with the cmYK and CMYK, the plots were different but
> the over all volume was fairly similar. I wouldn't suggest trying to
> pass this off as a full color printer, but for the occasional B/W with
> some selective color it should have been OK.

There will always be a compromise whether one uses the CMY or 
the cmY hues of a CcMmYK. The inkloads of cmY only inks in 
color printing and to cool down a greyscale print are 
problematic + the fading will be higher. CMY inks on the other 
hand show too much dot in the highlights. Given the choice I 
would use CMY inks and MK, PK, k,k,k.

It is typical that the R1800 has CM inks that are not as 
strongly pigmented as the CM inks of the CcMmYK UC inksets 
(according to Robert Krawitz). A compromise between less 
visible highlight dots and acceptable saturation at full 100%. 
So instead of CM or cm one could find the compromise in a 
blend in between for a good B&W printer with some 4 color 
capability.

In quads: on cooling warm K inks I think Paul Roark made the 
right decision to use Blue ink. Less ink needed than with a CM 
or cm mix (less bleeding), better fade resistance than with a 
CM/cm mix. Hard to get that with CM/cm inks.

Ernst
-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Has anyone heard how these new Canon large format machines are
handling monochrome? I mean the neutrality of it with lack of cross
over. One guy on the Canon list who has both a new Canon and a 7600
mentioned how he couldn't imagine people not seriously considering the
Canon - unless they were engaged in a lot of black and white work
primarily. I wonder what he ment by that? There isn't a lot of
activity over on that list yet. It is hard to know what these things
would so with a good rip and careful linearization.

john

> In quads: on cooling warm K inks I think Paul Roark made the 
> right decision to use Blue ink. Less ink needed than with a CM 
> or cm mix (less bleeding), better fade resistance than with a 
> CM/cm mix. Hard to get that with CM/cm inks.
> 
> Ernst
> -- 
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
> www.pigment-print.com
> (         unvollendet         )
>

John,
I have been keeping an eye on the Canon printers
lately and also saw some very good B/W prints at WPPI
in Las Vegas, printed on the new generation printer.
There was one image on display that had a bit
colorshift, and my opinion, was a profile issue, could
be fixed. The demo crew printed out a b/w on
pearl/lustre type paper, totally pure b/w. It was very
good. As well was the the matte fine art image that
was printed later on, but I had no chance to feel it
since there was a good volume of visitors in line to
learn more. Solid image with photographic quality, I
can see photographers who has been sceptical towards
inkjet, finally taking the step to own a printer with
speed, quality and colors. B/W or color, the new line
of printers will produce images that will please many
critical eyes. I belive that Canon finally got it
right, really right...

Anders



--- john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> Has anyone heard how these new Canon large format
> machines are
> handling monochrome? I mean the neutrality of it
> with lack of cross
> over. One guy on the Canon list who has both a new
> Canon and a 7600
> mentioned how he couldn't imagine people not
> seriously considering the
> Canon - unless they were engaged in a lot of black
> and white work
> primarily. I wonder what he ment by that? There
> isn't a lot of
> activity over on that list yet. It is hard to know
> what these things
> would so with a good rip and careful linearization.
> 
> john
> 
>  
> > In quads: on cooling warm K inks I think Paul
> Roark made the 
> > right decision to use Blue ink. Less ink needed
> than with a CM 
> > or cm mix (less bleeding), better fade resistance
> than with a 
> > CM/cm mix. Hard to get that with CM/cm inks.
> > 
> > Ernst
> > -- 
> > 
> >                     --
> >            Ernst Dinkla
> > 
> > 
> > www.pigment-print.com
> > (         unvollendet         )
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

john dean wrote:
> Has anyone heard how these new Canon large format machines are
> handling monochrome? I mean the neutrality of it with lack of cross
> over. One guy on the Canon list who has both a new Canon and a 7600
> mentioned how he couldn't imagine people not seriously considering the
> Canon - unless they were engaged in a lot of black and white work
> primarily. I wonder what he ment by that? There isn't a lot of
> activity over on that list yet. It is hard to know what these things
> would so with a good rip and careful linearization.
> 
> john

He mentioned that because he has a Canon W8400 or alike and 
that's just a plain CcMmYK machine comparable to the 10000, 
9000 range and not really suited for B&W printing. The Canon 
wide formats with more K inks iPF5000 - 9000 are not on the 
market right now but should be perfect for B&W printing.

Ernst
-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Greg wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@...> wrote:
>> not heresy at all. Doing it here, but keeping the quad machine alive
>> and well too.
>> How about making that CMY in your setup just the light inks? Of course
>> you have no choice with the Y, but still...
>> A small gamut CMY would be even better, I still think it's those high
>> saturation dots, no matter how spares, that are a problem.
>> Tyler
>>
>>
> 
> Yes that's what I was thinking, the light colors, or maybe even
> diluted light colors should work very well. And if you had 5 black
> inks, you should be able to get all (or more) of the tonality that the
> quads use. Or use a double 4 black ink set so that you had both photo
> and matte black installed. Actually for matte paper I would still run
> all 5 blacks, but gloss would be only 4.
> 
> And depending on the light inks used, you can still get a decent sized
> gamut if you use them at full mixture. I tried making a 4 color
> comparison once with the cmYK and CMYK, the plots were different but
> the over all volume was fairly similar. I wouldn't suggest trying to
> pass this off as a full color printer, but for the occasional B/W with
> some selective color it should have been OK.

Related to this: Qimage got a change to its ICC profiling 
system so it now allows to profile per image in a print page. 
  So multiple profiles can be used on one print run. With a 
profile that emphasises the neutrality and another one that is 
more suited to color printing it must be possible to make some 
basic lay-outs with B&W and color prints on one page. This is 
still "RGB" printer profiling so not really affecting ink 
choices etc. Of course it can't be used with QTR  as the last 
doesn't have a color engine.

Ernst


-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Related to limited color printing:

This evening 21.00 hrs London time there's the second episode 
of the ..The Lost World of Friese-Greene .. on BBC television. 
Experimental (two) color movie material used in the 1920's to 
record UK's countryside and tourist spots. Last Tuesday we 
were fascinated by the quality of the digitised images. If I 
recall it correctly the very first Technicolor material was 
also 2 color based.
There's more information on the BBC site + some reel cuts to 
download.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/programmes/?id=friese_greene

Of course on the other channel(s) there is Arsenal vs Villa Real.

Ernst
-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )