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NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-27 by Shilesh Jani

I am cross posting this message at the Epson Wide Format and Digital 
BW, The Print forums.

My fade test is at 18 days tonight. I live in the Mid South USA, and 
we have been fairly sunny these last 18 days, but I did not keep 
track. My original intent was to keep them exposed for 4 weeks prior 
to taking a peek. But this evening I noticed one of the print on the 
floor, and decided to take a quick measurement. I was not good, so 
what the heck, I measured them all.

My admittedly crude methodology was: I printed 100%, 75%, 50%, and 
25% ink limit patches of pure color on various papers using QTR. Each 
8.5 x 11 page contained 2 sets of colors. One set (Test) was was 
stuck on the south facing window, the other went in the drawer (Ref). 
My window is double glazed.

Due to other attributes of NanoChrome inks, I have whittled down my 
interest in these inks to using only the black ink (Dmax on HPR) in 
otherwise pigments inksets. So my reporting is rather narrow, but 
telling nonetheless.

I had origianlly intended to use a friend's I1 for detailed 
measurments. The limited measurements below were made with a Heiland 
PM Densitometer.

I am reporting the fade in density percent of the 25% ink coverage 
patch of the black ink.

Fade% = (1 - Test D/Ref D) x 100

I understand all the limitations of the test, so let us please not 
get into arguments. I am happy to provide clarification, if any is 
required.

The comparison were (1) Epson R220 Dye inks, (2) NanoChrome inks 
loaded on the R220 printer, and (3) Epson 4000 UC inks.

The reults for the 25 ink limit K patch:

Epson Premium Glossy - 5% Epson Dye, 5% Nano, 0% Epson UC PK
Epson Enhanced Matte - 4% Epson Dye, 15% Nano, 0% Epson UC MK
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag - 10% Epson Dye, 16% Nano, 0% Epson UC MK
HPR Satin - Not tested for Epson Dye, 11% Nano, 0% Epson UC MK

Some observations - the black NanoChrome ink warm shifts 
significantly. I have not made meticulous measurments of the other 
pure colors, but the trend is that LM fades the most noticebly.

So in this rather limited test, the NanoChrome black ink is no better 
than Epson Dye black, and no where near Epson UC MK or UC PK.

I must say I am dissapointed because the Dmax sure was nice on 
Hahnemuhle line of papers.

Regards.

Shilesh

Re: NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-27 by Clayton Jones

Hello Shilesh,

>So in this rather limited test, the NanoChrome black ink is no better 
>than Epson Dye black, and no where near Epson UC MK or UC PK.

Well, so much for that.  Must have a large dye content.  

Thsnks very much for the report.  I just received a sample Nano BO
print, so I'll put it on my widowsill as well and report my results in
a few weeks.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-27 by Howard Shaw

Clayton Jones wrote:
> Hello Shilesh,
> 
>>So in this rather limited test, the NanoChrome black ink is no better 
>>than Epson Dye black, and no where near Epson UC MK or UC PK.
> 
> Well, so much for that.  Must have a large dye content.  

That is disappointing. In this launch press release,
http://pdfserver.prweb.com/pdfdownload/316598/pr.pdf
it says (third paragraph from the bottom of the first page) -

"NanoChrome\ufffd Hybrid Resin Technology has met the strict challenges of 
fade resistance tests conducted by
independent laboratories and industry specialists. Test results are 
available at www.inkvillage.com and
conclude that fade resistance is comparable or better than major 
archival inks currently on the market while
maintaining more vivid and dense colors."

I've searched for those tests on InkVillage's web site but have been 
unable to find them. I've also emailed Inkvillage for a link but had no 
reply. Does anyone know where these results can be found?

Howard

RE: [Digital BW] NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-27 by Daniel Staver

This is very disappointing. The blacks looked better than anything I'd seen
previously on Photo Rag.

Guess glossy papers and GLOP are still the best compromise if you want
archival prints with high dmax.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> So in this rather limited test, the NanoChrome black ink is 
> no better than Epson Dye black, and no where near Epson UC MK 
> or UC PK.
> 
> I must say I am dissapointed because the Dmax sure was nice 
> on Hahnemuhle line of papers.

Re: [Digital BW] NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-27 by Steve Kale

This is extremely disappointing.  I'd been led to believe that the Nanos
were behind the UCs but "not that far behind".  This has dampened my
enthusiasm for coming generations but I remain open-minded and encourage
innovation. 2+ density on HPR really looks nice and is a very worthy goal.
(And I'm reminded of the whole densitometer discussion when people said
matte paper was technically disadvantaged by its matte surface - I know that
at least 2.05D is possible.) The quest for higher saturation longevity
continues.  I'm quite interested to see what InkVillage actually posts in
terms of longevity tests.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Shilesh Jani <shileshjani@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 03:42:11 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] NanoChrome South Window Fade Test
> 
> I am cross posting this message at the Epson Wide Format and Digital
> BW, The Print forums.
> 
> My fade test is at 18 days tonight. I live in the Mid South USA, and
> we have been fairly sunny these last 18 days, but I did not keep
> track. My original intent was to keep them exposed for 4 weeks prior
> to taking a peek. But this evening I noticed one of the print on the
> floor, and decided to take a quick measurement. I was not good, so
> what the heck, I measured them all.
> 
> My admittedly crude methodology was: I printed 100%, 75%, 50%, and
> 25% ink limit patches of pure color on various papers using QTR. Each
> 8.5 x 11 page contained 2 sets of colors. One set (Test) was was
> stuck on the south facing window, the other went in the drawer (Ref).
> My window is double glazed.
> 
> Due to other attributes of NanoChrome inks, I have whittled down my
> interest in these inks to using only the black ink (Dmax on HPR) in
> otherwise pigments inksets. So my reporting is rather narrow, but
> telling nonetheless.
> 
> I had origianlly intended to use a friend's I1 for detailed
> measurments. The limited measurements below were made with a Heiland
> PM Densitometer.
> 
> I am reporting the fade in density percent of the 25% ink coverage
> patch of the black ink.
> 
> Fade% = (1 - Test D/Ref D) x 100
> 
> I understand all the limitations of the test, so let us please not
> get into arguments. I am happy to provide clarification, if any is
> required.
> 
> The comparison were (1) Epson R220 Dye inks, (2) NanoChrome inks
> loaded on the R220 printer, and (3) Epson 4000 UC inks.
> 
> The reults for the 25 ink limit K patch:
> 
> Epson Premium Glossy - 5% Epson Dye, 5% Nano, 0% Epson UC PK
> Epson Enhanced Matte - 4% Epson Dye, 15% Nano, 0% Epson UC MK
> Hahnemuhle Photo Rag - 10% Epson Dye, 16% Nano, 0% Epson UC MK
> HPR Satin - Not tested for Epson Dye, 11% Nano, 0% Epson UC MK
> 
> Some observations - the black NanoChrome ink warm shifts
> significantly. I have not made meticulous measurments of the other
> pure colors, but the trend is that LM fades the most noticebly.
> 
> So in this rather limited test, the NanoChrome black ink is no better
> than Epson Dye black, and no where near Epson UC MK or UC PK.
> 
> I must say I am dissapointed because the Dmax sure was nice on
> Hahnemuhle line of papers.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Shilesh

Re: [Digital BW] Re: NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-27 by Ernst Dinkla

Howard Shaw wrote:

> That is disappointing. In this launch press release,
> http://pdfserver.prweb.com/pdfdownload/316598/pr.pdf
> it says (third paragraph from the bottom of the first page) -
> 
> "NanoChrome\ufffd Hybrid Resin Technology has met the strict challenges of 
> fade resistance tests conducted by
> independent laboratories and industry specialists. Test results are 
> available at www.inkvillage.com and
> conclude that fade resistance is comparable or better than major 
> archival inks currently on the market while
> maintaining more vivid and dense colors."
> 
> I've searched for those tests on InkVillage's web site but have been 
> unable to find them. I've also emailed Inkvillage for a link but had no 
> reply. Does anyone know where these results can be found?

I wouldn't call it results but at this site they add:

"Tested over 100 yrs fade resistance"

http://www.ussublimation.com/Bulk_Printer_Ink_in_Bottles.htm

Could be "yards" of course.


Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

[Digital BW] Re: NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-27 by helen_bach2003

It might be like Canon's '100 years' claim, it only applies in the dark.

Best,
Helen
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> "Tested over 100 yrs fade resistance"
> 
> http://www.ussublimation.com/Bulk_Printer_Ink_in_Bottles.htm
> 
> Could be "yards" of course.
> 
> 
> Ernst

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by Clarence Walker

Clarence W. Walker,   
Creative Expression Photography
 <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
Commercial, fine-art, and stock 
 





In considering a wide format printer for achieving the full range of shades
of gray while retaining a good pure black black and still offering intense
whites and highlights, it seems as though Epson is the printer of choice for
most of you. Is anyone aware of a website where such capabilities are tested
and measured or the "best of the best" grayscale inks and methodologies.
Even in reading the Epson materials it seems as though one sometimes has to
change out the blacks and do expensive system flushes. Might there actually
be a printer out there where I can print color and black and white without
having to constantly be changing ink sources. I will say that with my Canon
i9900 the ease of use has been wonderful, but now I need something with a
wider format and also geared to broad ranges of gray/b&w while retaining
color abilities. Maybe there simply isn't an existing turn key answer.
Trouble with Epson is that 2000.00+ hurdle for the next step up.


 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-27 by john dean

Of course the blacks are remarkable, they're dyes most likely,
regardless of what facy name you want to attach to them to confuse
people. I'm sure they've known the fade resistance all along. Nano is
probably no better than the Epson 1270 dye/hybred inks, probably
worse. Just what we thought all along. And just think, Wilhelm had
nothing to do with it.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
>
> Howard Shaw wrote:
> 
> > That is disappointing. In this launch press release,
> > http://pdfserver.prweb.com/pdfdownload/316598/pr.pdf
> > it says (third paragraph from the bottom of the first page) -
> > 
> > "NanoChrome™ Hybrid Resin Technology has met the strict challenges of 
> > fade resistance tests conducted by
> > independent laboratories and industry specialists. Test results are 
> > available at www.inkvillage.com and
> > conclude that fade resistance is comparable or better than major 
> > archival inks currently on the market while
> > maintaining more vivid and dense colors."
> > 
> > I've searched for those tests on InkVillage's web site but have been 
> > unable to find them. I've also emailed Inkvillage for a link but
had no 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > reply. Does anyone know where these results can be found?
> 
> I wouldn't call it results but at this site they add:
> 
> "Tested over 100 yrs fade resistance"
> 
> http://www.ussublimation.com/Bulk_Printer_Ink_in_Bottles.htm
> 
> Could be "yards" of course.
> 
> 
> Ernst
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
> www.pigment-print.com
> (         unvollendet         )
>

Re: NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-27 by Greg

I wonder how they would do on a swellable paper like Colorlife or one 
of the Ilford, or HP papers? Not that that would excuse all the hype. 
The sales person that sent me an email said that the printing half os 
US sublimation has completely switched to the Nanochromes, and that the 
printing techs were less than pleased with all the work it caused them 
in making new set ups for the RIPs and the new profiles. He also said 
they were going to have a hard time making the new prints look like the 
previous inks, since these Nano's worked so much better (there is a 
simple solution, but I won't go into it). All the while trying to get 
me to buy a bunch of this ink, I'm sure glad I didn't. When I think of 
all the time that I would have put in to clean the printer, and change 
the RIP, etc., I would have been less than pleased with these results.

Shilesh, send me a message offline if you want to send those test 
prints to me for measurement with my spectro.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

http://www.ergosoftus.com/news/show.php?archiv=6

Best thing out there that I know of. True B&W (PiezoTone quad-black) and 
full color (CMYKOGLcLm) in one printer. Takes StudioPrint to run it. 54" 
wide. Way more than $2000.00 USD for that step up though. Think $25K USD 
or more. But that's a full fledged turn-key answer.

You can spend a lot less money and get comparable results. But that 
takes two printers. I'm just say'n...
--
Bruce Watson


Clarence Walker wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Clarence W. Walker,  
> Creative Expression Photography
> <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock
>
> Might there actually be a printer out there where I can print color 
> and black and white without having to constantly be changing ink sources.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by Clarence Walker

Two printers?
 
Clarence W. Walker,   
Creative Expression Photography
 <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
Commercial, fine-art, and stock 
 
  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
hogarth@...
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:16 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?
 
http://www.ergosoftus.com/news/show.php?archiv=6

Best thing out there that I know of. True B&W (PiezoTone quad-black) and 
full color (CMYKOGLcLm) in one printer. Takes StudioPrint to run it. 54" 
wide. Way more than $2000.00 USD for that step up though. Think $25K USD 
or more. But that's a full fledged turn-key answer.

You can spend a lot less money and get comparable results. But that 
takes two printers. I'm just say'n...
--
Bruce Watson


Clarence Walker wrote:

> Clarence W. Walker,  
> Creative Expression Photography
> <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock
>
> Might there actually be a printer out there where I can print color 
> and black and white without having to constantly be changing ink sources.





















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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by Leslie Otterbein

Hi Clarence:

Here is a site that could give you an overview of the wide format  
market:

http://www.large-format-printers.org/

Leslie Otterbein
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 27, 2006, at 5:50 AM, Clarence Walker wrote:

>
>
> Clarence W. Walker,
> Creative Expression Photography
> <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In considering a wide format printer for achieving the full range  
> of shades
> of gray while retaining a good pure black black and still offering  
> intense
> whites and highlights, it seems as though Epson is the printer of  
> choice for
> most of you. Is anyone aware of a website where such capabilities  
> are tested
> and measured or the "best of the best" grayscale inks and  
> methodologies.
> Even in reading the Epson materials it seems as though one  
> sometimes has to
> change out the blacks and do expensive system flushes. Might there  
> actually
> be a printer out there where I can print color and black and white  
> without
> having to constantly be changing ink sources. I will say that with  
> my Canon
> i9900 the ease of use has been wonderful, but now I need something  
> with a
> wider format and also geared to broad ranges of gray/b&w while  
> retaining
> color abilities. Maybe there simply isn't an existing turn key answer.
> Trouble with Epson is that 2000.00+ hurdle for the next step up.
>
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by Mark Savoia

Although very one sided, it is FLAAR.
Mark

On Jan 27, 2006, at 11:38 AM, Leslie Otterbein wrote:

> Hi Clarence:
>
> Here is a site that could give you an overview of the wide format
> market:
>
> http://www.large-format-printers.org/
>
> Leslie Otterbein
>
> On Jan 27, 2006, at 5:50 AM, Clarence Walker wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Clarence W. Walker,
> > Creative Expression Photography
> > <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> > http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> > Commercial, fine-art, and stock
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In considering a wide format printer for achieving the full range
> > of shades
> > of gray while retaining a good pure black black and still offering
> > intense
> > whites and highlights, it seems as though Epson is the printer of
> > choice for
> > most of you. Is anyone aware of a website where such capabilities
> > are tested
> > and measured or the "best of the best" grayscale inks and
> > methodologies.
> > Even in reading the Epson materials it seems as though one
> > sometimes has to
> > change out the blacks and do expensive system flushes. Might there
> > actually
> > be a printer out there where I can print color and black and white
> > without
> > having to constantly be changing ink sources. I will say that with
> > my Canon
> > i9900 the ease of use has been wonderful, but now I need something
> > with a
> > wider format and also geared to broad ranges of gray/b&w while
> > retaining
> > color abilities. Maybe there simply isn't an existing turn key  
> answer.
> > Trouble with Epson is that 2000.00+ hurdle for the next step up.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines�  
> in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
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> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
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> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
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> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
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>
>
>
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>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by Philip Schwartz

Epson will tell you that the R24000 will do this, but it only uses
three shades of black and I think you need at least four. I am not
aware of any printer that allows quadtone b&w in conjunction with
color. This is why many b&w printers dedicate a printer to b&w. 
You can use an inexpensive 4- or 6-color printer (C86, R200) as long
as you don't need to print larger than letter size. If you need to go
larger, your choices become a lot more difficult -- and expensive.
 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clarence Walker"
<creative-expression@a...> wrote:
>
>  
>  
> Clarence W. Walker,   
> Creative Expression Photography
>  <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In considering a wide format printer for achieving the full range of
shades
> of gray while retaining a good pure black black and still offering
intense
> whites and highlights, it seems as though Epson is the printer of
choice for
> most of you. Is anyone aware of a website where such capabilities
are tested
> and measured or the "best of the best" grayscale inks and methodologies.
> Even in reading the Epson materials it seems as though one sometimes
has to
> change out the blacks and do expensive system flushes. Might there
actually
> be a printer out there where I can print color and black and white
without
> having to constantly be changing ink sources. I will say that with
my Canon
> i9900 the ease of use has been wonderful, but now I need something
with a
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> wider format and also geared to broad ranges of gray/b&w while retaining
> color abilities. Maybe there simply isn't an existing turn key answer.
> Trouble with Epson is that 2000.00+ hurdle for the next step up.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by Clarence Walker

Thanks to Mark, Leslie and the others who have provided input on the wide
format B&W issue. It would seem that the 25,000 dollar printers are for when
you graduate and move into the ranks of the elite. Some day.

I have written to the good people at FLAAR for some guidance on what
actually is out there. Has anyone considered a group contact to some of the
manufacturers with some parameters of interest such as the ability to
prevent fine art quality black and white that would represent the full range
of tones of gray without changing cartridges, flushing, or having duplicate
printers., Actually, for me at least, a 24 inch printer that would carry all
the cartridges/reservoirs to produce the full gamut of grays as well as
color with such "work arounds" would be perfect. That, and the assurance of
totally water proof prints, archival quality, and non bronzing at an
affordable price.  

Is there any kind of group of Fine Art Photographers?

Clarence W. Walker,   
Creative Expression Photography
http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
Commercial, fine-art, and stock 
FineArtPhoto/Yahoo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Savoia
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:41 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

Although very one sided, it is FLAAR.
Mark

On Jan 27, 2006, at 11:38 AM, Leslie Otterbein wrote:

> Hi Clarence:
>
> Here is a site that could give you an overview of the wide format
> market:
>
> http://www.large-format-printers.org/
>
> Leslie Otterbein
>
> On Jan 27, 2006, at 5:50 AM, Clarence Walker wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Clarence W. Walker,
> > Creative Expression Photography
> > <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> > http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> > Commercial, fine-art, and stock
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In considering a wide format printer for achieving the full range
> > of shades
> > of gray while retaining a good pure black black and still offering
> > intense
> > whites and highlights, it seems as though Epson is the printer of
> > choice for
> > most of you. Is anyone aware of a website where such capabilities
> > are tested
> > and measured or the "best of the best" grayscale inks and
> > methodologies.
> > Even in reading the Epson materials it seems as though one
> > sometimes has to
> > change out the blacks and do expensive system flushes. Might there
> > actually
> > be a printer out there where I can print color and black and white
> > without
> > having to constantly be changing ink sources. I will say that with
> > my Canon
> > i9900 the ease of use has been wonderful, but now I need something
> > with a
> > wider format and also geared to broad ranges of gray/b&w while
> > retaining
> > color abilities. Maybe there simply isn't an existing turn key  
> answer.
> > Trouble with Epson is that 2000.00+ hurdle for the next step up.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
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> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
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> in the Files section:
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>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
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> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
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> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
> SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
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> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>  Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
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>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by Leslie Otterbein

Hi Clarence:

I think there's another Yahoo group out there, who talk about wide  
format. Go to the main Yahoo site and do a search.

Mark, what do you mean by FLARR being one sided? I wouldn't know, I  
just happened to surf through it once.

Leslie Otterbein
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 27, 2006, at 10:16 AM, Clarence Walker wrote:

> Thanks to Mark, Leslie and the others who have provided input on  
> the wide
> format B&W issue. It would seem that the 25,000 dollar printers are  
> for when
> you graduate and move into the ranks of the elite. Some day.
>
> I have written to the good people at FLAAR for some guidance on what
> actually is out there. Has anyone considered a group contact to  
> some of the
> manufacturers with some parameters of interest such as the ability to
> prevent fine art quality black and white that would represent the  
> full range
> of tones of gray without changing cartridges, flushing, or having  
> duplicate
> printers., Actually, for me at least, a 24 inch printer that would  
> carry all
> the cartridges/reservoirs to produce the full gamut of grays as  
> well as
> color with such "work arounds" would be perfect. That, and the  
> assurance of
> totally water proof prints, archival quality, and non bronzing at an
> affordable price.
>
> Is there any kind of group of Fine Art Photographers?
>
> Clarence W. Walker,
> Creative Expression Photography
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock
> FineArtPhoto/Yahoo
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by Clarence Walker

Leslie, What I was referencing was whether there are any associations of
fine art photographers.
 
Clarence W. Walker,   
Creative Expression Photography
 <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
Commercial, fine-art, and stock
FineArtPhoto/Yahoo
 
 
  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leslie
Otterbein
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 2:41 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?
 
Hi Clarence:

I think there's another Yahoo group out there, who talk about wide  
format. Go to the main Yahoo site and do a search.

Mark, what do you mean by FLARR being one sided? I wouldn't know, I  
just happened to surf through it once.

Leslie Otterbein

On Jan 27, 2006, at 10:16 AM, Clarence Walker wrote:

> Thanks to Mark, Leslie and the others who have provided input on  
> the wide
> format B&W issue. It would seem that the 25,000 dollar printers are  
> for when
> you graduate and move into the ranks of the elite. Some day.
>
> I have written to the good people at FLAAR for some guidance on what
> actually is out there. Has anyone considered a group contact to  
> some of the
> manufacturers with some parameters of interest such as the ability to
> prevent fine art quality black and white that would represent the  
> full range
> of tones of gray without changing cartridges, flushing, or having  
> duplicate
> printers., Actually, for me at least, a 24 inch printer that would  
> carry all
> the cartridges/reservoirs to produce the full gamut of grays as  
> well as
> color with such "work arounds" would be perfect. That, and the  
> assurance of
> totally water proof prints, archival quality, and non bronzing at an
> affordable price.
>
> Is there any kind of group of Fine Art Photographers?
>
> Clarence W. Walker,
> Creative Expression Photography
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock
> FineArtPhoto/Yahoo
>



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




  _____  

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
 
*	 Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

Yes, two printers. One color, one B&W. If you want that same level of 
quality as you could get from the d'Vinci system that's what it takes. 
Else, you have to print B&W with color inks. Many here are happy with 
the results of B&W with color inks. I don't think that's the answer. 
You'll have to decide what works for you.
--
Bruce Watson


Clarence Walker wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Two printers?
>
> Clarence W. Walker,  
> Creative Expression Photography
> <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock
>
>   _____ 
>
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> hogarth@...
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:16 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?
>
> http://www.ergosoftus.com/news/show.php?archiv=6
>
> Best thing out there that I know of. True B&W (PiezoTone quad-black) and
> full color (CMYKOGLcLm) in one printer. Takes StudioPrint to run it. 54"
> wide. Way more than $2000.00 USD for that step up though. Think $25K USD
> or more. But that's a full fledged turn-key answer.
>
> You can spend a lot less money and get comparable results. But that
> takes two printers. I'm just say'n...
> --
> Bruce Watson
>
>
> Clarence Walker wrote:
>
> > Clarence W. Walker, 
> > Creative Expression Photography
> > <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> > http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> > Commercial, fine-art, and stock
> >
> > Might there actually be a printer out there where I can print color
> > and black and white without having to constantly be changing ink 
> sources.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-27 by Clarence Walker

Bruce, 
I was afraid that was what you were talking about. However, to me it seems
more a factor of marketing by the manufacturers than anything else. I say
this after years within the printer division of IBM. With the rapidly
growing numbers of people in digital photography and an equally rapidly
growing number now seeking to produce fine art/commercial quality black and
white through digital, there is no reason why the manufacturers could not
produce an affordable printer with wider format as well as the ability to
produce high quality black and white with the whole gray scale. Maybe they
need to hear from many of us that there IS a demand. According to the specs
on this list alone there are over 7600 members. Even a representative
submission of requests from a percentage of that number would get some
attention. Say, starting now?
 
Clarence W. Walker,   
Creative Expression Photography
 <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
Commercial, fine-art, and stock
FineArtPhoto/Yahoo 
 
  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
hogarth@...
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 4:01 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?
 
Yes, two printers. One color, one B&W. If you want that same level of 
quality as you could get from the d'Vinci system that's what it takes. 
Else, you have to print B&W with color inks. Many here are happy with 
the results of B&W with color inks. I don't think that's the answer. 
You'll have to decide what works for you.
--
Bruce Watson


Clarence Walker wrote:

> Two printers?
>
> Clarence W. Walker,  
> Creative Expression Photography
> <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock
>
>   _____ 
>
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> hogarth@...
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:16 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?
>
> http://www.ergosoftus.com/news/show.php?archiv=6
>
> Best thing out there that I know of. True B&W (PiezoTone quad-black) and
> full color (CMYKOGLcLm) in one printer. Takes StudioPrint to run it. 54"
> wide. Way more than $2000.00 USD for that step up though. Think $25K USD
> or more. But that's a full fledged turn-key answer.
>
> You can spend a lot less money and get comparable results. But that
> takes two printers. I'm just say'n...
> --
> Bruce Watson
>
>
> Clarence Walker wrote:
>
> > Clarence W. Walker, 
> > Creative Expression Photography
> > <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> > http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> > Commercial, fine-art, and stock
> >
> > Might there actually be a printer out there where I can print color
> > and black and white without having to constantly be changing ink 
> sources.





















Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-27 by Chris Hargens

Bad news. Like others I had hopes for the inkset. But I'm glad you
posted your results a bit early. I was just going to order some
Nanochrome ink for BO printing.

Chris Hargens






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani"
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I am cross posting this message at the Epson Wide Format and Digital 
> BW, The Print forums.
> 
> My fade test is at 18 days tonight. I live in the Mid South USA, and 
> we have been fairly sunny these last 18 days, but I did not keep 
> track. My original intent was to keep them exposed for 4 weeks prior 
> to taking a peek. But this evening I noticed one of the print on the 
> floor, and decided to take a quick measurement. I was not good, so 
> what the heck, I measured them all.
> 
> My admittedly crude methodology was: I printed 100%, 75%, 50%, and 
> 25% ink limit patches of pure color on various papers using QTR. Each 
> 8.5 x 11 page contained 2 sets of colors. One set (Test) was was 
> stuck on the south facing window, the other went in the drawer (Ref). 
> My window is double glazed.
> 
> Due to other attributes of NanoChrome inks, I have whittled down my 
> interest in these inks to using only the black ink (Dmax on HPR) in 
> otherwise pigments inksets. So my reporting is rather narrow, but 
> telling nonetheless.
> 
> I had origianlly intended to use a friend's I1 for detailed 
> measurments. The limited measurements below were made with a Heiland 
> PM Densitometer.
> 
> I am reporting the fade in density percent of the 25% ink coverage 
> patch of the black ink.
> 
> Fade% = (1 - Test D/Ref D) x 100
> 
> I understand all the limitations of the test, so let us please not 
> get into arguments. I am happy to provide clarification, if any is 
> required.
> 
> The comparison were (1) Epson R220 Dye inks, (2) NanoChrome inks 
> loaded on the R220 printer, and (3) Epson 4000 UC inks.
> 
> The reults for the 25 ink limit K patch:
> 
> Epson Premium Glossy - 5% Epson Dye, 5% Nano, 0% Epson UC PK
> Epson Enhanced Matte - 4% Epson Dye, 15% Nano, 0% Epson UC MK
> Hahnemuhle Photo Rag - 10% Epson Dye, 16% Nano, 0% Epson UC MK
> HPR Satin - Not tested for Epson Dye, 11% Nano, 0% Epson UC MK
> 
> Some observations - the black NanoChrome ink warm shifts 
> significantly. I have not made meticulous measurments of the other 
> pure colors, but the trend is that LM fades the most noticebly.
> 
> So in this rather limited test, the NanoChrome black ink is no better 
> than Epson Dye black, and no where near Epson UC MK or UC PK.
> 
> I must say I am dissapointed because the Dmax sure was nice on 
> Hahnemuhle line of papers.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Shilesh
>

Re: NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-28 by Clayton Jones

Hello Chris,

>I was just going to order some Nanochrome ink for BO printing.

Be glad you didn't for another reason.  I recently received a sample
Nano BO print on Photorag, and it has an intense cold blue steel tone
(colder than I would ever want to print, and I tend toward neutral
more than warm).  If it's that cold on PR, which with Eboni BO is
medium warm, it would mean we wouldn't have the wonderful range of
rich tones across various papers that Eboni gives us.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-28 by Leslie Otterbein

Hi Clarence:

Try googling Fine Art Photography. Here's one that shows you a lot of  
other photographers.

http://www.photography-webrings.net/


Good luck!

Leslie Otterbein
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 27, 2006, at 12:34 PM, Clarence Walker wrote:

> Leslie, What I was referencing was whether there are any  
> associations of
> fine art photographers.
>
> Clarence W. Walker,
> Creative Expression Photography
> <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock
> FineArtPhoto/Yahoo

Re: NanoChrome South Window Fade Test

2006-01-28 by mark_roth_505

Shilesh,

I really appreciate your effort and posting of this information. It 
saves me from a tremendous amount of embarrassment and grief, in 
relying on lies and then using this ink to make prints, and then later 
have to make excuses to customers, thus causing permanent damage to my 
reputation...I'm sure a lot of others on this list feel the same way, 
and you might consider cross posting this on as many lists as possible.

There will be a number of clowns taking dye ink from who-knows-where, 
and making up fade results and false archival claims to make a quick 
buck.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-28 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

There's no reason to believe me. You can find out for yourself. Do the 
work - find someone to print your images in several different ways. Some 
with grayscale inks, some with color inks. Look at them in various 
lighting. Make your own decision.

This of course limits you to what is on the market today.
--
Bruce Watson


Clarence Walker wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Bruce,
> I was afraid that was what you were talking about. However, to me it seems
> more a factor of marketing by the manufacturers than anything else. I say
> this after years within the printer division of IBM. With the rapidly
> growing numbers of people in digital photography and an equally rapidly
> growing number now seeking to produce fine art/commercial quality 
> black and
> white through digital, there is no reason why the manufacturers could not
> produce an affordable printer with wider format as well as the ability to
> produce high quality black and white with the whole gray scale. Maybe they
> need to hear from many of us that there IS a demand. According to the 
> specs
> on this list alone there are over 7600 members. Even a representative
> submission of requests from a percentage of that number would get some
> attention. Say, starting now?
>
> Clarence W. Walker,  
> Creative Expression Photography
> <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock
> FineArtPhoto/Yahoo

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-28 by Clarence Walker

Bruce,
 I wasn't in any way negating or questioning what you said.  When I said I
was afraid that was what you meant, I was simply saying that I felt that
what you said about having to have two printers was probably the case, but
unfortunate, because it seems that with the abilities available to the
manufacturers that they could easily resolve this, especially if they (their
marketing product managers, felt that there was a demand for a printer with
such capabilities. That was why I suggested that we could somehow drive that
awareness. Surely there are many who would want an affordable printer for
accurate and complete grayscale as well as color without the trade offs,
need to be constantly changing cartridges,  and system flushing. 
 
Clarence W. Walker,   
Creative Expression Photography
 <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
Commercial, fine-art, and stock 
 
  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
hogarth@...
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 9:34 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?
 
There's no reason to believe me. You can find out for yourself. Do the 
work - find someone to print your images in several different ways. Some 
with grayscale inks, some with color inks. Look at them in various 
lighting. Make your own decision.

This of course limits you to what is on the market today.
--
Bruce Watson


Clarence Walker wrote:

> Bruce,
> I was afraid that was what you were talking about. However, to me it seems
> more a factor of marketing by the manufacturers than anything else. I say
> this after years within the printer division of IBM. With the rapidly
> growing numbers of people in digital photography and an equally rapidly
> growing number now seeking to produce fine art/commercial quality 
> black and
> white through digital, there is no reason why the manufacturers could not
> produce an affordable printer with wider format as well as the ability to
> produce high quality black and white with the whole gray scale. Maybe they
> need to hear from many of us that there IS a demand. According to the 
> specs
> on this list alone there are over 7600 members. Even a representative
> submission of requests from a percentage of that number would get some
> attention. Say, starting now?
>
> Clarence W. Walker,  
> Creative Expression Photography
> <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> Commercial, fine-art, and stock
> FineArtPhoto/Yahoo



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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-31 by J Vee

Yes, my ColorSpan 11color printer uses quad black in conjunction with all
the color heads.  Very expensive machine but worth it for the result, both
B/W and Gigclee reproductions.  J Vee

On 1/27/06 11:54 AM, "Philip Schwartz" <Philip.Schwartz@...> wrote:

> Epson will tell you that the R24000 will do this, but it only uses
> three shades of black and I think you need at least four. I am not
> aware of any printer that allows quadtone b&w in conjunction with
> color. This is why many b&w printers dedicate a printer to b&w.
> You can use an inexpensive 4- or 6-color printer (C86, R200) as long
> as you don't need to print larger than letter size. If you need to go
> larger, your choices become a lot more difficult -- and expensive.
>  
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clarence Walker"
> <creative-expression@a...> wrote:
>> >
>> >  
>> >  
>> > Clarence W. Walker,
>> > Creative Expression Photography
>> >  <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
>> > http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
>> > Commercial, fine-art, and stock
>> >  
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > In considering a wide format printer for achieving the full range of
> shades
>> > of gray while retaining a good pure black black and still offering
> intense
>> > whites and highlights, it seems as though Epson is the printer of
> choice for
>> > most of you. Is anyone aware of a website where such capabilities
> are tested
>> > and measured or the "best of the best" grayscale inks and methodologies.
>> > Even in reading the Epson materials it seems as though one sometimes
> has to
>> > change out the blacks and do expensive system flushes. Might there
> actually
>> > be a printer out there where I can print color and black and white
> without
>> > having to constantly be changing ink sources. I will say that with
> my Canon
>> > i9900 the ease of use has been wonderful, but now I need something
> with a
>> > wider format and also geared to broad ranges of gray/b&w while retaining
>> > color abilities. Maybe there simply isn't an existing turn key answer.
>> > Trouble with Epson is that 2000.00+ hurdle for the next step up.
>> > 
>> > 
>> >  
>> > 
>> > 
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
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> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
>   
> 
>  
>  SPONSORED LINKS 
>           
>   Digital wedding photography
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+wedding+photography&w1=Digital+we
> dding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&
> w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+
> course&c=6&s=188&.sig=>    Learn digital photography
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Learn+digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedd
> ing+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4
> =Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+co
> urse&c=6&s=188&.sig=em>    Digital photography college
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+college&w1=Digital+we
> dding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&
> w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+
> course&c=6&s=188&.sig=>
>   Digital photography
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+ph
> otography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digit
> al+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c
> =6&s=188&.sig=pJmwqgVz>    Digital photography web site
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+web+site&w1=Digital+w
> edding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college
> &w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography
> +course&c=6&s=188&.sig>    Digital photography course
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+course&w1=Digital+wed
> ding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w
> 4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+c
> ourse&c=6&s=188&.sig=O>
>  
>  
> 
>  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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-- 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-31 by Ellie Kennard

Hi J Vee,

We had to give up on the Esprit CS 11 colour with B/W and colour for 
different reasons, primarily banding on the BW. Just couldn't get rid 
of it. It seemed that they were going to bring out new inks, as it 
was an acknowledged problem. But they never did. Also it had a few 
problems with gradients to white, where it produced colour fringing, 
also acknowledged problem. We sold it this year and replaced it with 
the 9800. It made gorgeous prints, but those problems killed it for 
us in the end. Very labour intensive too, compared to the Epsons. 
Very solidly built, but looked like a piece of industrial machinery 
in the room, compared with the 'baby grand' look of the 9800. It 
wouldn't have mattered what it looked like if it had done the job, 
but it just didn't, or not all of it.

Ellie

On 31 Jan 2006 at 13:33, J Vee wrote (snipped):

> Yes, my ColorSpan 11color printer uses quad black in conjunction with
> all the color heads.  Very expensive machine but worth it for the
> result, both B/W and Gigclee reproductions.  J Vee
-- 
Innovative Imaging Studio, http://www.iiStudio.com
9545 Hwy 221, Canning, Nova Scotia, B0P 1H0;
Phone: 902-582-3795
SKYPE ID: innovativeimagingstudio

[Digital BW] Re: Digital black and white printer test site?

2006-01-31 by john dean

OH yes. The new Roland can come outfitted with six colors combined
with the Cone Quad pigments. It requires the use of the Da Vinci rip
by Ergosoft. A guy in California that uses these groups has one. He
had to lease it because it cost so much. But he loves the hell out of
it. Wouldn't it be nice. Personally I'd rather have 4 9800's if I had
the choice, which I don't.

John




 I am not
> > aware of any printer that allows quadtone b&w in conjunction with
> > color. This is why many b&w printers dedicate a printer to b&w.
> > You can use an inexpensive 4- or 6-color printer (C86, R200) as long
> > as you don't need to print larger than letter size. If you need to go
> > larger, your choices become a lot more difficult -- and expensive.
> >  
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clarence Walker"
> > <creative-expression@a...> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >  
> >> >  
> >> > Clarence W. Walker,
> >> > Creative Expression Photography
> >> >  <http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com/>
> >> > http://www.creativeexpressiononline.com
> >> > Commercial, fine-art, and stock
> >> >  
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > In considering a wide format printer for achieving the full
range of
> > shades
> >> > of gray while retaining a good pure black black and still offering
> > intense
> >> > whites and highlights, it seems as though Epson is the printer of
> > choice for
> >> > most of you. Is anyone aware of a website where such capabilities
> > are tested
> >> > and measured or the "best of the best" grayscale inks and
methodologies.
> >> > Even in reading the Epson materials it seems as though one
sometimes
> > has to
> >> > change out the blacks and do expensive system flushes. Might there
> > actually
> >> > be a printer out there where I can print color and black and white
> > without
> >> > having to constantly be changing ink sources. I will say that with
> > my Canon
> >> > i9900 the ease of use has been wonderful, but now I need something
> > with a
> >> > wider format and also geared to broad ranges of gray/b&w while
retaining
> >> > color abilities. Maybe there simply isn't an existing turn key
answer.
> >> > Trouble with Epson is that 2000.00+ hurdle for the next step up.
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> >  
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership
> > without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from the
> > membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE
DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION
OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
PARTY ON THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
RELATING TO THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >  
> >  SPONSORED LINKS 
> >           
> >   Digital wedding photography
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+wedding+photography&w1=Digital+we
> >
dding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&
> >
w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+
> > course&c=6&s=188&.sig=>    Learn digital photography
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Learn+digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedd
> >
ing+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4
> >
=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+co
> > urse&c=6&s=188&.sig=em>    Digital photography college
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+college&w1=Digital+we
> >
dding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&
> >
w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+
> > course&c=6&s=188&.sig=>
> >   Digital photography
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+ph
> >
otography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=Digit
> >
al+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+course&c
> > =6&s=188&.sig=pJmwqgVz>    Digital photography web site
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+web+site&w1=Digital+w
> >
edding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college
> >
&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography
> > +course&c=6&s=188&.sig>    Digital photography course
> >
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+course&w1=Digital+wed
> >
ding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w
> >
4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+c
> > ourse&c=6&s=188&.sig=O>
> >  
> >  
> > 
> >  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > 
> > *  Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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