Digital BW, The Print

I got my samples of Silver Rag - Thank you Jim Doyle. As a first go 
around, I printed it on an Epson 4000 using EPL as the media setting, 
and NCA with the canned EPL profile. I was not interested in color 
accuracy of the profile per-se, or any such thing. I was mostly 
interested in bronzing with the UC inks.

Results: Well it bronzes - a lot as a matter-of-fact. It bronzes 
about the same as or MORE than Premium Gloss, or Premium Semi Gloss 
on this printer. Well yes, it is nice to hold (cotton rag and-all), 
but as Steve Kale has alluded, who cares about the touch of the paper 
when it does not look so good. This paper does not LOOK good even 
when held in my hands. I would rather compromise in color gamut and 
contrast by using a more traditional rag paper like HPR or Museo II, 
Max, etc. My reason: these papers can acctually do things that an RC 
paper cannot do, i.e, present NO reflection, no matter how you view 
it. I imagine papers such as EPL, EPSG, EPG, and many other RC papers 
are perfectly acceptable with UC inks for many people. For them, 
there is no need to change because Silver Rag adds nothing to image 
quality. I will hazard that changing to Kodak Rapid-Dry Luster is a 
much better (perhaps less expensive) solution to bronzing on RC 
papers.

The search goes on. If only dye (or dye-like) inks were available 
with truly neutral-warm K, LK and LLK inks. Some day, in a not too 
distant future, we will look upon these efforts thinking "I cant't 
belive we lived with these limitations" - I hope.

Shilesh

I had the same results with Cone Piezzo K6, major bronzing and gloss
diff, that was MK. But the fact remains that this SR was designed for
the Epson K3 inks with Photo K from what I can gather. At least I hope
that is the case. I'll know by Monday if that makes the difference. 

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani"
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:

>
> I got my samples of Silver Rag - Thank you Jim Doyle. As a first go 
> around, I printed it on an Epson 4000 using EPL as the media setting, 
> and NCA with the canned EPL profile. I was not interested in color 
> accuracy of the profile per-se, or any such thing. I was mostly 
> interested in bronzing with the UC inks.
> 
> Results: Well it bronzes - a lot as a matter-of-fact. It bronzes 
> about the same as or MORE than Premium Gloss, or Premium Semi Gloss 
> on this printer. Well yes, it is nice to hold (cotton rag and-all), 
> but as Steve Kale has alluded, who cares about the touch of the paper 
> when it does not look so good. This paper does not LOOK good even 
> when held in my hands. I would rather compromise in color gamut and 
> contrast by using a more traditional rag paper like HPR or Museo II, 
> Max, etc. My reason: these papers can acctually do things that an RC 
> paper cannot do, i.e, present NO reflection, no matter how you view 
> it. I imagine papers such as EPL, EPSG, EPG, and many other RC papers 
> are perfectly acceptable with UC inks for many people. For them, 
> there is no need to change because Silver Rag adds nothing to image 
> quality. I will hazard that changing to Kodak Rapid-Dry Luster is a 
> much better (perhaps less expensive) solution to bronzing on RC 
> papers.
> 
> The search goes on. If only dye (or dye-like) inks were available 
> with truly neutral-warm K, LK and LLK inks. Some day, in a not too 
> distant future, we will look upon these efforts thinking "I cant't 
> belive we lived with these limitations" - I hope.
> 
> Shilesh
>

Here are my impressions of the Silver Rag paper. Sorry for my bad english! Hope you can 
read it anyway.


a� what printer did you test the paper on
I used a Epson Photo R800
b� what inks were you using
The orginal epson ink set
c� was the image monochrome or colour
Both
d� when the image is compared with a control print say on your usual gloss paper was the 
shadow and highlight detail as defined and how did the image compare regarding colour 
saturation.

see text�

I whant to thank Crane for finaly having made a brayete like ink-jet paper. My first 
imprission was that now I am agen making photographs. I am an artist photographer who 
is making artbooks and exhibitions (www.30bytaik.com go to artist and my name). I used 
to make all my works on Agfa Racord-rapid or protriga or thiere multigrade bryate papers 
but due to allergi to kemicals I was forsed to stop traditnel darkrom work. Sinse then I 
have made my exhibitions prints on lamda prints and I never realy liked the matrials as the 
endure paper is norma RC plastic prints and has not the fill of a fine print. now in a few 
years I have made my exhibitions prints on Hanem�lle photo rag but but have missed the 
depth and photographic feel of the deep blacks. The epson premiar gloss has a beutifull 
deph and tonalyty but has a feel of real plastec and the reflections are like a mirror. I feel 
the new Silver rag combine what I have missed: the feel of the rag paper and the tonalyty 
of the RC glossy paper. I have comparied the same paper to epson premiar gloss and the 
Silver rag has a very similar depth but much better becrouce its looks like the ink is in the 
paper and therefore it gets a depth the the epson premiar gloss miss. It look very cheep 
and the Silver Rag looks like and real art print. I like very much the color feel as is a new 
thing to have a bryate color print in your hands. The bace color of the paper is very 
beutifull very similar to normaly Rag paperes like photo rag. The RC paperes like epson 
premiar gloss looks blues whrite and I never liked this blues plastic bace. I even gave it a 
yello bace color earliger on. When I comepere to test prints from epson premiar gloss and 
Silver Rag printed with same profile they look very very similar colorwice. The shadow and 
higlight details are idintical. The dmax could even be higher as the ink look as it went 
inside the paper and when look in very bright light it looks just deeper veres the epson 
premiar gloss looks less deep in very strong light. The epson premiar gloss are soehow 
sharper. I have diffents grainy parts in my test picture and epson premiar gloss are 
somehow teckenical sharp were the silver rag looks totally like the sightly more soft brayte 
bace wich I like very much. The grain structure looks less and more like made with and an 
inlarger, some haw spread into the paper and there for sofened a bit. I think this is 
somehow very improtent reasion whay this paper is so beutifull. The paper looks abselutly 
sharp and even better as its not getting the teckenical part of the file so clearly. Its a littel 
strange but it looks like that to me!  When I comepare my photo rag prints with the silver 
rag  stands out like anything and at the same time looks and feels as much like a fine print 
as the other rag. I am also using the Hanemulle photo rag satin wich to my eyes has a 
much too strong strugture wich make me loss the intrest to it. The Silver Rag paper is 
abeslutly the best paper I have used and are defently going to be my main paper, still 
there are imprumments to be made if I could deside:

The impromments I would like to see are:

The shennynes are like a fine stardust over the paper, I like the strugture in the paper very 
much but would like to see this stardust shine to be more even and just slightly less high 
gloss. Its a bit betvieen gloss and pearl like but more even and more like a racord rapid air 
dryed like would be more beutifull in my opinion. 

I am now testing it with a R800 and use the gloss optimaiser and it make its also a bit 
more sheiny I think. Without the gloss optimaiser there are very strong bronze but with 
the gloss optimaser there are a very littel wich is aceteble but would be good to get totaly 
read of too, also the gloss adds somehow a more plastic sheine to the surface wich I could 
image could be improved. I hope the brocing is not a problem in the K3 ink in 9800?

Would it be and idea for somebady epson or otheres to make a sourface printer withe 3 or 
4 diffent lacke. One could have onlt this paper and use diffent lack printings to abtain the 
finaly surface one like. Gloss optimacer semigloss optimacer and air dryed bryte gloss 
optimacer and a ilford mad gloss optimacer. Such a printer would be great to have!

Anyway I would like to see manny more of this kind of paper more with diffents glossines 
and matness. 

I looking foreword to try the fianl Silver rag paper, 

Greatings

Joakim Eskildsen

Joakim,

Thanks for taking the trouble to post your review. 

As to what you said about :


Would it be and idea for somebady epson or otheres to make a sourface
printer
withe 3 or
4 diffent lacke. One could have onlt this paper and use diffent lack
printings
to abtain the
finaly surface one like. Gloss optimacer semigloss optimacer and air
dryed bryte
gloss
optimacer and a ilford mad gloss optimacer. Such a printer would be
great to
have!


---  I belive they are working on just that. But they want us all to
buy the K3 first, then they'll spring it on us. You watch.

john

This thread has been going on for so long I forgot, did anyone get it  
to stick using Cone's quad inks?
Mark

On Jan 24, 2006, at 9:08 AM, john dean wrote:

> Joakim,
>
> Thanks for taking the trouble to post your review.
>
> As to what you said about :
>
>
> Would it be and idea for somebady epson or otheres to make a sourface
> printer
> withe 3 or
> 4 diffent lacke. One could have onlt this paper and use diffent lack
> printings
> to abtain the
> finaly surface one like. Gloss optimacer semigloss optimacer and air
> dryed bryte
> gloss
> optimacer and a ilford mad gloss optimacer. Such a printer would be
> great to
> have!
>
>
> ---  I belive they are working on just that. But they want us all to
> buy the K3 first, then they'll spring it on us. You watch.
>
> john
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi John,

Interisting if they realy are planning to make such a print divaice.

why are a thought party company not making it before epson, a lack printer were one could 
put Clear Shield or ones favroite coting onto any paper then we would not need all the trobel 
to spry it or roll in on wich seem to be diffecould to get even and big work too! 

Do anybady know if one can put eks Clear Shield type ll into and normal ink-jet printer and 
use it as a lacker machine? Maby it will dry op inside? Have anybady tryed? I could use my old 
printers to have it as a lacker machine. I could mix it to get my perfickt mat/gloss 
combination.

Joakim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
>
> This thread has been going on for so long I forgot, did anyone get it  
> to stick using Cone's quad inks?
> Mark

nope

Thanks. That ends that.
Mark

On Jan 24, 2006, at 12:02 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
> <mark@c...> wrote:
> >
> > This thread has been going on for so long I forgot, did anyone  
> get it
> > to stick using Cone's quad inks?
> > Mark
>
> nope
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
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> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
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> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
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> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark,

I don't know what you mean by stick. My one test with K6 neutral stuck
fine and there was no posterization, with no smearing at all. It just
had horrible gloss differentital because of the dark black. I don't
see why one couldn't use a Pk black in there like K3. However you are
right, if - could haves and buts were candy and nuts everyday would be
Christmas.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:

>
> Thanks. That ends that.
> Mark
> 
> On Jan 24, 2006, at 12:02 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
> > <mark@c...> wrote:
> > >
> > > This thread has been going on for so long I forgot, did anyone  
> > get it
> > > to stick using Cone's quad inks?
> > > Mark
> >
> > nope
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> > visiting this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> > to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> > from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> > group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines"  
> > in the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL  
> > BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
> > SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
> > THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> > OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Digital wedding photography	Learn digital photography	Digital  
> > photography college
> > Digital photography	Digital photography web site	Digital  
> > photography course
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >  Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
> >
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> >
> >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I don't think it is fair to judge the Silver Rag paper with UC ink
alone. UC ink bronzes with most epson premier glossy papers. Try it
with K3 or MIS K4? Could it be possible that these might be the target
inks for this paper and not the UC ink?

Agreed. I just (30 minutes ago) printed for the first time using 2400 
K3 inks with PK - almost no bronzing at all using ABW. The 
reflectiveness or sheen of the printed portions is another matter.

I now know what has made others gaga over this paper.

I believe Crane should provide ample, prominent caution that this paper 
will not work well with UC inks (unless coated, of course).

Thank you for following up on this old post of mine.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mambo445" 
<pchok@y...> wrote:

>
> I don't think it is fair to judge the Silver Rag paper with UC ink
> alone. UC ink bronzes with most epson premier glossy papers. Try it
> with K3 or MIS K4? Could it be possible that these might be the target
> inks for this paper and not the UC ink?
>

I totally agree, and Epson should do exactly the same thing becuase
none of that glosssy media that most people use is acceptable with UC
either unless sprayed. But we've known that for years.

John



 I now know what has made others gaga over this paper.

> 
> I believe Crane should provide ample, prominent caution that this paper 
> will not work well with UC inks (unless coated, of course).
> 
> Thank you for following up on this old post of mine.
> 
> Shilesh