Digital BW, The Print

Greetings,

I am printing with the Epson R2400, both in full color and with the 
ABW. I print regularly but not in sufficient quantity to come up with 
accurate per print costs for ink. I know that several of our board 
members have probably done this. Could you possibly share with me some 
estimate figures to help me with my materials costs analysis? I have 
seen some figure this in cost/sq inch in the past. Thanks in advance 
for any help you can give me.

Scott

Hello Scott,

>Epson R2400...accurate per print costs for ink...possibly share 
>with me some estimate figures to help me with my materials costs 
>analysis? I have seen some figure this in cost/sq inch in the past. 

I haven't done a cost analysis, so would also be interested if anyone
has.  But in case some prospective 2400 buyers are reading this, I can
say that the 2400 does not seem to be as frequent in the self-imposed
head cleanings as my 2200 was, and also seems to be rather
conservative on ink use during the cleanings.  This has not been
measured, but is just my sense about it after 5 months of use,
following 2 years with the 2200.  

Also, in 5 months of use I have not once had to do a nozzle check or
head cleaning.  It simply doesn't clog and has performed flawlessly. 
It is also faster and quieter than the 2200.  The 2400 is clearly the
best printer I've used, in every way, and I have no hesitation in
recommending it.

The inks are expensive, so I do most of my proofing in Eboni BO with
the R200, and shift over to the 2400 only for late stage paper/tone
decisions and final prints.   It has worked out to be an excellent
workflow that saves a lot of ink, with no icc curves, profiles or
densitometers needed.  I'm holding off on switching to MIS inks until
Paul finishes the grayscale set.  I buy Epson inks from Atlex.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I don't know what the numbers might say but I feel (yes subjectively feel) that I use ink carts far more frequently than with the 2200. It may be that I just print more because the results are so much better with the 2400. I think that if one is to truly minimize the cost per print then the solution in part lies with using the 4800 or 7800 using the 220ml carts. As I say I love the results so for me the 2400 is a wonderful tool. But I genuinely believe I am using ink much faster than before so the cost as well as the quality is up. Someone might be willing to do the work to discover this scientifically but until then...............
 
Woody Spedden

----- Original Message ----
From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:35:41 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: R2400 per print costs

Hello Scott,

>Epson R2400...accurate per print costs for ink...possibly share 
>with me some estimate figures to help me with my materials costs 
>analysis? I have seen some figure this in cost/sq inch in the past. 

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm







Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <elwood@w...> 
wrote:
>
> I don't know what the numbers might say but I feel (yes 
subjectively feel) that I use ink carts far more frequently than with 
the 2200. It may be that I just print more because the results are so 
much better with the 2400. I think that if one is to truly minimize 
the cost per print then the solution in part lies with using the 4800 
or 7800 using the 220ml carts. As I say I love the results so for me 
the 2400 is a wonderful tool. But I genuinely believe I am using ink 
much faster than before so the cost as well as the quality is up. 
Someone might be willing to do the work to discover this 
scientifically but until then...............
>  
> Woody Spedden


Woody, maybe this will help:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1013&message=14220915

If not, a CIS that uses the ink from the larger carts might be a good 
idea. It won't pay off as quickly as using third party inks, but it 
might be an option for you.

As far as the hardware part, the Ink Republic system works great in 
my cheezy cx6600, but I'm using Image Specialists ink with that 
machine. I've paid it off a while ago, and only installed it around 
the beginning of September. Just a thought.

Thanks so far, yes hopefully someone will be able to give us some 
ballpark numbers. I would really like to have a sense for what ink and 
paper costs are for a given picture. I was inspired to wonder this 
after reading Brooks Jensen's article in Lenswork on lower pricing for 
prints which I must admit was an amazing read. But, when one is selling 
at such a low price, the material costs do become a larger percentage 
of the selling price. I am just curious as to what this might be. Paper 
cost is easy to figure out. My ink usage on EPSG paper with the R2400 
is not so easy to figure.

Thanks if someone has a handle on these costs or quantity of ink used 
figures.

Thanks
I appreciate the feedback\
Woody

----- Original Message ----
From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:45:35 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: R2400 per print costs

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <elwood@w...> 
wrote:
>
> I don't know what the numbers might say but I feel (yes 
subjectively feel) that I use ink carts far more frequently than with 
the 2200. It may be that I just print more because the results are so 
much better with the 2400. I think that if one is to truly minimize 
the cost per print then the solution in part lies with using the 4800 
or 7800 using the 220ml carts. As I say I love the results so for me 
the 2400 is a wonderful tool. But I genuinely believe I am using ink 
much faster than before so the cost as well as the quality is up. 
Someone might be willing to do the work to discover this 
scientifically but until then...............
>  
> Woody Spedden


Woody, maybe this will help:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1013&message=14220915

If not, a CIS that uses the ink from the larger carts might be a good 
idea. It won't pay off as quickly as using third party inks, but it 
might be an option for you.

As far as the hardware part, the Ink Republic system works great in 
my cheezy cx6600, but I'm using Image Specialists ink with that 
machine. I've paid it off a while ago, and only installed it around 
the beginning of September. Just a thought.





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.





SPONSORED LINKS 
Digital wedding photography Learn digital photography Digital photography college 
Digital photography Digital photography web site Digital photography course 





YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 


 Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
  
 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Scott

I've been trying to keep a pretty accurate and thorough record of my 
printing (in an Excel spreadsheet). I've printed the equivalent of 298 
A4 sheets, and my colour to black and white printing is roughly in the 
ratio of 4:1. Virtually all printing is done using Best Photo, and is 
predominantly on matte paper.

I've included all test prints and throw-aways in my calculations, and 
the ink costs works out for me at $0.019/square inch, or $4.71 per A3+ 
sheet.

I'm in Australia, so these estimates are in Australian dollars. As a 
rough guide, an R2400 ink tank costs about $20 down here.

Just out of interest, this is my ink cartridge use for all this 
printing:

MK - 1
LK - 5
LLK - 2
LM - 6
LC - 3
C - 2
M - 2
Y - 3

Anyway, I hope this helps

Best regards
Jeremy

www.jturnerphotography.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Jones" 
<peanutdogs@h...> wrote:
>
> Greetings,
> 
> I am printing with the Epson R2400, both in full color and with the 
> ABW. I print regularly but not in sufficient quantity to come up 
with 
> accurate per print costs for ink. I know that several of our board 
> members have probably done this. Could you possibly share with me 
some 

> estimate figures to help me with my materials costs analysis? I have 
> seen some figure this in cost/sq inch in the past. Thanks in advance 
> for any help you can give me.
> 
> Scott
>

Hello folks,

I purchased the R2400 in Dec 05 and set up a print log for this 
purpose.  I haven't determined the total sq/in cost but I have just 
replaced my first cartritge, the LK (light black), I'm also low on 
the LM and Y with about 10%left.  
Until I figure out the total inches printed, I'll just give some 
basics; I printed 71 sheets of paper, all were on matt paper and no 
prints were B&W only.  All images were 7x7 inches with only six @ 
8.5x10.5",two @ 6x18" and one @ 12x12.  (Actually someone could do it 
with the info I've provided). I tried to print images that had a full 
range of colors and didn't have any dominate dark areas.  

Even though this was all color printing, I hope this helps.  

Christopher

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
>
> Hello Scott,
> 
> >Epson R2400...accurate per print costs for ink...possibly share 
> >with me some estimate figures to help me with my materials costs 
> >analysis? I have seen some figure this in cost/sq inch in the 
past. 
> 
> I haven't done a cost analysis, so would also be interested if 
anyone
> has.  But in case some prospective 2400 buyers are reading this, I 
can
> say that the 2400 does not seem to be as frequent in the self-
imposed
> head cleanings as my 2200 was, and also seems to be rather
> conservative on ink use during the cleanings.  This has not been
> measured, but is just my sense about it after 5 months of use,
> following 2 years with the 2200.  
> 
> Also, in 5 months of use I have not once had to do a nozzle check or
> head cleaning.  It simply doesn't clog and has performed 
flawlessly. 
> It is also faster and quieter than the 2200.  The 2400 is clearly 
the
> best printer I've used, in every way, and I have no hesitation in
> recommending it.
> 
> The inks are expensive, so I do most of my proofing in Eboni BO with
> the R200, and shift over to the 2400 only for late stage paper/tone
> decisions and final prints.   It has worked out to be an excellent
> workflow that saves a lot of ink, with no icc curves, profiles or
> densitometers needed.  I'm holding off on switching to MIS inks 
until

> Paul finishes the grayscale set.  I buy Epson inks from Atlex.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hello folks,

I purchased the R2400 in Dec 05 and set up a print log for this 
purpose.  I haven't determined the total sq/in cost but I have just 
replaced my first cartritge, the LK (light black), I'm also low on 
the LM and Y with about 10%left.  
Until I figure out the total inches printed, I'll just give some 
basics; I printed 71 sheets of paper, all were on matt paper and no 
prints were B&W only.  All images were 7x7 inches with only six @ 
8.5x10.5",two @ 6x18" and one @ 12x12.  (Actually someone could do it 
with the info I've provided). I tried to print images that had a full 
range of colors and didn't have any dominate dark areas.  

Even though this was all color printing, I hope this helps.  

Christopher

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
>
> Hello Scott,
> 
> >Epson R2400...accurate per print costs for ink...possibly share 
> >with me some estimate figures to help me with my materials costs 
> >analysis? I have seen some figure this in cost/sq inch in the 
past. 
> 
> I haven't done a cost analysis, so would also be interested if 
anyone
> has.  But in case some prospective 2400 buyers are reading this, I 
can
> say that the 2400 does not seem to be as frequent in the self-
imposed
> head cleanings as my 2200 was, and also seems to be rather
> conservative on ink use during the cleanings.  This has not been
> measured, but is just my sense about it after 5 months of use,
> following 2 years with the 2200.  
> 
> Also, in 5 months of use I have not once had to do a nozzle check or
> head cleaning.  It simply doesn't clog and has performed 
flawlessly. 
> It is also faster and quieter than the 2200.  The 2400 is clearly 
the
> best printer I've used, in every way, and I have no hesitation in
> recommending it.
> 
> The inks are expensive, so I do most of my proofing in Eboni BO with
> the R200, and shift over to the 2400 only for late stage paper/tone
> decisions and final prints.   It has worked out to be an excellent
> workflow that saves a lot of ink, with no icc curves, profiles or
> densitometers needed.  I'm holding off on switching to MIS inks 
until

> Paul finishes the grayscale set.  I buy Epson inks from Atlex.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hello Woody,

>I don't know what the numbers might say but I feel (yes subjectively
feel) that I use ink carts far more frequently than with the 2200. 

That's interesting.  All my 2200 printing was BO so I can't compare
it, but I do remember that one of my first impressions of the 2400 was
that "this thing pumps out a LOT of ink".  The prints come out feeling
damp, where BO prints, in all but solid black coverage areas, are
virtually instant-dry.  I figured this was because of full ink
coverage even in the highlights, but even given that, I had to lower
the ink density to -5% to prevent the blacks form looking overloaded.
What do you attribute the heavier ink usage to, finer dots?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Honestly Clayton I don't have a clue as to reason. I think the dot size plus the different nozzle pressure to achieve the higher print speed may be the culprits. I also print color with it and the light magenta cartridge seems to go like lightning. In any event as I said it subjectively uses much more ink. I won't bother to pursue it further because even if I found out why it does use more there is little chance I can do much about it. Perhaps the better solution is to get a 4800 and take advantage of the lower cost 220ml cartridges.  I guess also that I will not complain too much because the quality of the 2400 is superb. And by the way, I use your settings (based on your article) including the -5% ink density.
 
Good to hear from you. Hope all is well
Woody

----- Original Message ----
From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:53:31 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: R2400 per print costs

Hello Woody,

>I don't know what the numbers might say but I feel (yes subjectively
feel) that I use ink carts far more frequently than with the 2200. 

That's interesting.  All my 2200 printing was BO so I can't compare
it, but I do remember that one of my first impressions of the 2400 was
that "this thing pumps out a LOT of ink".  The prints come out feeling
damp, where BO prints, in all but solid black coverage areas, are
virtually instant-dry.  I figured this was because of full ink
coverage even in the highlights, but even given that, I had to lower
the ink density to -5% to prevent the blacks form looking overloaded.
What do you attribute the heavier ink usage to, finer dots?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.






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 Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
  
 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Jeremy,

>I've printed the equivalent of 298 A4 sheets, and my colour to 
>black and white printing is roughly in the ratio of 4:1. 
>I've included all test prints and throw-aways in my calculations,
> and the ink costs works out for me at $0.019/square inch, or 
>$4.71 per A3+ sheet.
>I'm in Australia, so these estimates are in Australian dollars. 
>As a rough guide, an R2400 ink tank costs about $20 down here.

> MK - 1
> LK - 5
> LLK - 2
> LM - 6
> LC - 3
> C - 2
> M - 2
> Y - 3

(total 24 carts)

Thanks for the good report.  So if you have used 24 carts to make 298
letter size prints, then you're getting apprx 12.4 prints per cart. 
At $20/cart it comes to about $1.61 per letter size print.  With Atlex
prices here in the US ($11.20+shipping, so about $12.00 ea), 12.4
letter size prints per cart would be about $0.97 per print.

Im curious about ink usage in color vs BW.  You said you're about 4:1
color:BW.  I've rearranged your cart list in order of most used and
see that LM and LK top the list.

>.LM - 6
>.LK - 5
>..Y - 3
>.LC - 3
>LLK - 2
>..C - 2
>..M - 2
>.MK - 1

I haven't counted my prints, but I have kept all my used carts (also
just did a survey of the Status Monitor) and have totaled how much ink
I've used in 5 months (got the printer in middle of August).  All my
printing is in ABW, almost all of it at fairly neutral settings. 
Here's the result:

LLK - 2.25
.LM - 2.00
.LK - 1.90
.LC - 1.75
.MK - 1.70
..Y - 1.10
..C - 1.00
..M - 0.80

Obviously the arrangement is different, is it safe to assume that the
over all quantity per print would be similar?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Thanks Jeremy and Clayton,

Sorry for the late reply; I have been away. Thanks for your ink cost 
estimates. I have crunched all your number too, taking into account 
US dollars and Atlex ink costs for the R2400.

My computations therefore boil down to:

aprroximately $0.01, or one cent, per sq inch (what a handy 
figure!!!)

US Letter size print (8.5x11" or 93.5sq") $0.94 or about $1 (handy 
again!)

13x19" paper (249sq")  $$2.47 or about 2.50 (handy yet again)

Thanks so much for your efforts. These figures added to the paper 
costs therefore give a very reasonable estimate of the total 
material cost for a given size print which will be quite helpful at 
setting a print price that are low, but not money losers. Nice to 
know...

Scott