Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-02 by Steve Kale

Some of us here in the UK just participated in a B&W print exchange which highlighted an 
"issue" with certain papers.   One of the prints was on "Innova Smooth Cotton Natural White 
315gsm cotton rag paper".  I was shocked to see this print flickering in the light as though 
there were extremely fine grains of glitter in the paper!  Once noticed it was quite distracting.  
(Lighting conditions are 4700K/300lux)  Knowing that Innova's cotton papers are basically 
the same as both Permajet's Alpha/Omega range and Mandev UK's Eterna Excel range I 
decided to take another look at these papers too.  Sure enough they all exhibit the same very 
fine glitter effect in their coating.  Thankfully HPR did not have the same problem.  Anyone 
else noticed this?  This pretty much writes these papers off for me (although I can buy HPR 
rolls from Jim Doyle in the US cheaper than I can buy any of these papers in the UK anyway).

Steve

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-02 by Ernst Dinkla

Steve Kale wrote:
> Some of us here in the UK just participated in a B&W print exchange which highlighted an 
> "issue" with certain papers.   One of the prints was on "Innova Smooth Cotton Natural White 
> 315gsm cotton rag paper".  I was shocked to see this print flickering in the light as though 
> there were extremely fine grains of glitter in the paper!  Once noticed it was quite distracting.  
> (Lighting conditions are 4700K/300lux)  Knowing that Innova's cotton papers are basically 
> the same as both Permajet's Alpha/Omega range and Mandev UK's Eterna Excel range I 
> decided to take another look at these papers too.  Sure enough they all exhibit the same very 
> fine glitter effect in their coating.  Thankfully HPR did not have the same problem.  Anyone 
> else noticed this?  This pretty much writes these papers off for me (although I can buy HPR 
> rolls from Jim Doyle in the US cheaper than I can buy any of these papers in the UK anyway).
> 
> Steve

I have mentioned it right from the beginning. As I understand 
it Jim has brought it to the attention of Innova then. But I 
do not know whether you got old stock in that print exchange 
or if whether has never been changed in later batches.


Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-02 by Steve Kale

It's in the last lot of Permajet I bought about a month ago and in the
sample sheets from Mandev (the Eterna branded paper).  I don't think
anything has been changed.  Looks like tiny fragments of glass sparkling in
the light.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:18:04 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna,
> Permajet)
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
>> Some of us here in the UK just participated in a B&W print exchange which
>> highlighted an 
>> "issue" with certain papers.   One of the prints was on "Innova Smooth Cotton
>> Natural White 
>> 315gsm cotton rag paper".  I was shocked to see this print flickering in the
>> light as though 
>> there were extremely fine grains of glitter in the paper!  Once noticed it
>> was quite distracting.
>> (Lighting conditions are 4700K/300lux)  Knowing that Innova's cotton papers
>> are basically 
>> the same as both Permajet's Alpha/Omega range and Mandev UK's Eterna Excel
>> range I 
>> decided to take another look at these papers too.  Sure enough they all
>> exhibit the same very
>> fine glitter effect in their coating.  Thankfully HPR did not have the same
>> problem.  Anyone
>> else noticed this?  This pretty much writes these papers off for me (although
>> I can buy HPR 
>> rolls from Jim Doyle in the US cheaper than I can buy any of these papers in
>> the UK anyway).
>> 
>> Steve
> 
> I have mentioned it right from the beginning. As I understand
> it Jim has brought it to the attention of Innova then. But I
> do not know whether you got old stock in that print exchange
> or if whether has never been changed in later batches.
> 
> 
> Ernst
>

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-02 by kenstrain2000

>Looks like tiny fragments of glass sparkling in the light.

Would that be 

"ImageLife's proprietary coating is a non toxic silica binder" ?

(ref Permajet pdf catalogue p5)

 - I'd thought (not very seriously though) that they meant silicate
binder (as silicates seem more likely to bind ...) but perhaps they
really do mean silica in which case they are little bits of glass. 

I imagine they are not meant to be visible, but I can see them in a
sheet of "Omega" from a recent batch. The ink does not seem to adhere
to/cover perhaps a few dozen tiny spots per square cm, but only one or
two of them per square cm are what I'd call objectionable - to be
honest I had not noticed them until trying somewhat brighter light
than my normal display - at which point the eboni was also starting to
look a bit light too.  The bigger ones are definitely seen to glint.

ps. my vision is not perfect, and this inspection was aided only by my
glasses, but in bright light (not calibrated).

I'm not sure, but delta looks better on a small sample of sheets.

Ken

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-02 by Steve Kale

Yeah, so proprietary it's the same in 3 brands of paper...anyone know who
the real manufacturer is?  Permajet don't MAKE any paper at all.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: kenstrain2000 <kenstrain2000@...>

> 
>> Looks like tiny fragments of glass sparkling in the light.
> 
> Would that be 
> 
> "ImageLife's proprietary coating is a non toxic silica binder" ?
> 
> (ref Permajet pdf catalogue p5)
> 
>  - I'd thought (not very seriously though) that they meant silicate
> binder (as silicates seem more likely to bind ...) but perhaps they
> really do mean silica in which case they are little bits of glass.
> 
> I imagine they are not meant to be visible, but I can see them in a
> sheet of "Omega" from a recent batch. The ink does not seem to adhere
> to/cover perhaps a few dozen tiny spots per square cm, but only one or
> two of them per square cm are what I'd call objectionable - to be
> honest I had not noticed them until trying somewhat brighter light
> than my normal display - at which point the eboni was also starting to
> look a bit light too.  The bigger ones are definitely seen to glint.
> 
> ps. my vision is not perfect, and this inspection was aided only by my
> glasses, but in bright light (not calibrated).
> 
> I'm not sure, but delta looks better on a small sample of sheets.
> 
> Ken

RE: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by Paul Roark

>...anyone know who the real manufacturer is?  
> 
> >> Looks like tiny fragments of glass sparkling in the light.
> >

I think the coating is Innova, but the paper is from various manufacturers.
The glitter could be aluminum.  Although aluminum compounds can be very good
moisture absorbers (note the aluminum compound used in most
antiperspirants), I'm not sure why aluminum itself would be in the mix.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by Steve Kale

Well I have three different brands of paper from paper in front of me (those
listed above) and they are so similar it isn't funny.  So similar I simply
do not believe they have anything proprietary at all.  For all practical
purposes they are interchangeable although I would say the Innova Smooth
Cotton Natural White is ever so slightly whiter than the Eterna and Permajet
natural whites.  Each have the same texture and alumina/silica sparkle in
their coating.

Perhaps someone like John Edmunds, if he is listening in, could comment on
why one would put these minerals in a coating at all?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

> 
>> ...anyone know who the real manufacturer is?
>> 
>>>> Looks like tiny fragments of glass sparkling in the light.
>>> 
> 
> I think the coating is Innova, but the paper is from various manufacturers.
> The glitter could be aluminum.  Although aluminum compounds can be very good
> moisture absorbers (note the aluminum compound used in most
> antiperspirants), I'm not sure why aluminum itself would be in the mix.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by kenstrain2000

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> Well I have three different brands of paper from paper in front of
me (those
> listed above) and they are so similar it isn't funny.  So similar I
simply
> do not believe they have anything proprietary at all.  

Fotospeed could be added to the list, cheaper than permajet in some
sheet sizes, but not for rolls.

One can also derive a little amusement by comparing the Fotospeed and
Permajet Catalogues.  As well as the Innova-like papers there are 
strangely very similar "classic" papers that appear in both
catalogues, but in Fotospeed's case they are called Hahnemuehle.  

Permajet seems to make a big deal of hiding their suppliers whether
for inks or papers (but they have also made amusing mistakes like
failing to change file names or tags in supplied profiles which makes
the source kind-of obvious - at least they did that a couple of years
ago).

A few weeks ago someone replied to a post of mine asking why it could
be helpful to the consumer to know the origins of these products ...


Ken

ps. searchs for mandev and eterna on google (uk), or eterna on
mandev.co.uk internal search engine results in zero hits  ???

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by Steve Kale

I think they are in the process of re-branding all their media to the Eterna
label, including a new website.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: kenstrain2000 <kenstrain2000@...>

> 
> ps. searchs for mandev and eterna on google (uk), or eterna on
> mandev.co.uk internal search engine results in zero hits  ???
>

RE: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by John Moody

A mineral such as zeolite?  It's basically a stable sponge; you can imagine
why it would be helpful in an inkjet coating.  I have no first hand
knowledge of inkjet paper coatings however.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steve Kale
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 4:40 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna,
Permajet)

Well I have three different brands of paper from paper in front of me (those
listed above) and they are so similar it isn't funny.  So similar I simply
do not believe they have anything proprietary at all.  For all practical
purposes they are interchangeable although I would say the Innova Smooth
Cotton Natural White is ever so slightly whiter than the Eterna and Permajet
natural whites.  Each have the same texture and alumina/silica sparkle in
their coating.

Perhaps someone like John Edmunds, if he is listening in, could comment on
why one would put these minerals in a coating at all?


> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

>
>> ...anyone know who the real manufacturer is?
>>
>>>> Looks like tiny fragments of glass sparkling in the light.
>>>
>
> I think the coating is Innova, but the paper is from various
manufacturers.
> The glitter could be aluminum.  Although aluminum compounds can be very
good
> moisture absorbers (note the aluminum compound used in most
> antiperspirants), I'm not sure why aluminum itself would be in the mix.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




SPONSORED LINKS
Digital wedding photography
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+wedding+photography&w1=Digital+
wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+coll
ege&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photog
raphy+course&c=6&%20>
Learn digital photography
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Learn+digital+photography&w1=Digital+we
dding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+colleg
e&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photogra
phy+course&c=6&s=%20>
Digital photography college
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+college&w1=Digital+
wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+coll
ege&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photog
raphy+course&c=6&%20>
Digital photography
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+
photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=D
igital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+co
urse&c=6&s=188&.s%20>
Digital photography web site
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+web+site&w1=Digital
+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+col
lege&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photo
graphy+course&c=6%20>
Digital photography course
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+course&w1=Digital+w
edding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+colle
ge&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photogr
aphy+course&c=6&s%20>

  _____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

*          Visit your group " DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint> " on the web.

*          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Uns
ubscribe>

*          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

  _____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by Steve Kale

Yes a drying agent (which also helps control dot gain etc).  The question is
how you get it in/on the paper.  In a coating I guess it will sit on the
surface and potentially be visible.

I completely agree with Ken and find this murkiness in disclosure in the
paper manufacturing very disconcerting.  HPR still rules - at least they
actually make paper themselves.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>

> 
> A mineral such as zeolite?  It's basically a stable sponge; you can imagine
> why it would be helpful in an inkjet coating.  I have no first hand
> knowledge of inkjet paper coatings however.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by Ernst Dinkla

Steve Kale wrote:
> Yes a drying agent (which also helps control dot gain etc).  The question is
> how you get it in/on the paper.  In a coating I guess it will sit on the
> surface and potentially be visible.
> 
> I completely agree with Ken and find this murkiness in disclosure in the
> paper manufacturing very disconcerting.  HPR still rules - at least they
> actually make paper themselves.

Steve,

I have been in the printing business for 30 years and know 
Hahnemuhle papers that long. The former agent here in Holland 
complained that the paper making machine could hardly cope 
with the demand when their digital papers became the best in 
the market. Schleicher & Schuell at that time the owners of 
Hahnemuhle didn't want to invest. Could be different now with 
the management buy-out but don't be surprised if Hahnemuhle 
buys extra paper from other mills too. Enough here that like 
to deliver at prices you can't buy another foudrinier for: 
Lana, Schut, some German mills and the Italians like Fabriano 
and Magnani. If you don't have a successful digital product on 
the market it is much harder to earn money in paper making. Of 
course a company that still makes paper itself has good 
quality control on what it receives.

Kaolin, zeolite, all kinds of minerals go into paper coatings. 
Binders like PVA and more exotic substances. Blades are used 
for heavy coatings like on the Hahnemuhle papers. Some 
manufacturers like Schoellershammer have digital papers that 
have a different sizing in the paper pulp, no extra coating is 
applied, somewhat like the Bockingford/Futures coating. A lot 
of the coating application is done by specialised companies 
that get big rolls of the substrate. Cutting to smaller sizes 
may happen closer to the consumers.

There's little chance you will get all the deals going on at 
the table. In coatings, substrate, machines used etc. This is 
a modern industry despite the 1500 AC labels on the packaging. 
For inks it isn't different. Even new software these days may 
be relabeled 6 years old technology.

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by john dean

That is a realistic description of what is going on. Unfortunately ( 
or fortunately depending on how you want to view it) nothing in this 
industry remains static. Trying to find out about a paper co's supply 
source, coating composition, or an ink suppliers routines is like 
trying to view a moving target. I've given up. My approach is to use 
someting until I have negative issues. If I have repetitive negative 
concerns I drop a product and move on. But that is why forums like 
this are so valuable. We can relate both the good the bad in real 
time. Price is always a factor as is consistency, and Ernst is right, 
this isn't Germany during the Renaissance - the quality control had to 
be much worse then. But I have to say I have had nothing but perfect 
consistency with Hahnemuhle, for whatever reason.

John
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> There's little chance you will get all the deals going on at 
> the table. In coatings, substrate, machines used etc. This is 
> a modern industry despite the 1500 AC labels on the packaging. 
> For inks it isn't different. Even new software these days may 
> be relabeled 6 years old technology.
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
> www.pigment-print.com
> (         unvollendet         )
>

RE: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by John

Hi John,
             A Happy and prosperous New Year!
   
  For some one with no first hand knowledge of paper coatings you are very close, 
  Most Microporous coatings contain Silica or Alumina in one form or another depending on what the end result is to be.
           All surface coated micropourous coatings will always have a problem with "sparkle" if they don't get the particles of a close uniform size and below 100 Nano meters, (and this is a difficult and costly process) so to keep the cost down the  diligence in particle size control is not exercised as a consequence some larger particles show up and "Glitter".  I should emphasise that this is down to the "coating" not the paper. I have an International Patent on the alternative micropourous formulation and Infusion technology for the introduction of this specialised formulation in the Pulp and Infused surface saturation which we have licenced to a No. of Paper, Film and Fabric Companies. As an after thought perhaps I should add that the Patents are protected by a very substantial legal insurance.
   
  
John Moody <moodymz3@...> wrote:
  A mineral such as zeolite?  It's basically a stable sponge; you can imagine
why it would be helpful in an inkjet coating.  I have no first hand
knowledge of inkjet paper coatings however.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steve Kale
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 4:40 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna,
Permajet)

Well I have three different brands of paper from paper in front of me (those
listed above) and they are so similar it isn't funny.  So similar I simply
do not believe they have anything proprietary at all.  For all practical
purposes they are interchangeable although I would say the Innova Smooth
Cotton Natural White is ever so slightly whiter than the Eterna and Permajet
natural whites.  Each have the same texture and alumina/silica sparkle in
their coating.

Perhaps someone like John Edmunds, if he is listening in, could comment on
why one would put these minerals in a coating at all?


> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

>
>> ...anyone know who the real manufacturer is?
>>
>>>> Looks like tiny fragments of glass sparkling in the light.
>>>
>
> I think the coating is Innova, but the paper is from various
manufacturers.
> The glitter could be aluminum.  Although aluminum compounds can be very
good
> moisture absorbers (note the aluminum compound used in most
> antiperspirants), I'm not sure why aluminum itself would be in the mix.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




SPONSORED LINKS
Digital wedding photography
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+wedding+photography&w1=Digital+
wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+coll
ege&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photog
raphy+course&c=6&%20>
Learn digital photography
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Learn+digital+photography&w1=Digital+we
dding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+colleg
e&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photogra
phy+course&c=6&s=%20>
Digital photography college
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+college&w1=Digital+
wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+coll
ege&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photog
raphy+course&c=6&%20>
Digital photography
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+wedding+
photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+college&w4=D
igital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photography+co
urse&c=6&s=188&.s%20>
Digital photography web site
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+web+site&w1=Digital
+wedding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+col
lege&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photo
graphy+course&c=6%20>
Digital photography course
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+course&w1=Digital+w
edding+photography&w2=Learn+digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+colle
ge&w4=Digital+photography&w5=Digital+photography+web+site&w6=Digital+photogr
aphy+course&c=6&s%20>

  _____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

*          Visit your group " DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint> " on the web.

*          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Uns
ubscribe>

*          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

  _____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



    
---------------------------------
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 

    
    Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
    
    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    
    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

    
---------------------------------
  

  




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by John

Diana is so right and some other as well, if you know where to look.

Diana York~Hawk Mtn Papers <diana@...> wrote:  So does Crane Paper.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  <snip>HPR still rules - at least they
  actually make paper themselves.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




  SPONSORED LINKS 
        Digital wedding photography   Learn digital photography   Digital photography college     Digital photography   Digital photography web site   Digital photography course 
    
---------------------------------
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 

    
    Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
    
    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    
    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

    
---------------------------------
  





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by Steve Kale

My view is that paper marketers (seems there are few paper manufacturers who
market their own product to retail) simply need to be open as to their
products.  I don't mind if Brand A says "we outsource the mill component to
X according to our specs and coating to Y designed by us or Z."  The point
is there is a quality product (with longevity testing) and there is openness
as to how it's produced.  Anyone who markets another's products as their own
"proprietary" solutions is going to see less interest from me.  I found
Diana's disclosure a month or so ago refreshing and I would encourage more.
My bet is that Innova designed a coating (not a substrate) and that the same
combination is now being marketed by several different businesses as their
own.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:11:12 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna,
> Permajet)
> 
> That is a realistic description of what is going on. Unfortunately (
> or fortunately depending on how you want to view it) nothing in this
> industry remains static. Trying to find out about a paper co's supply
> source, coating composition, or an ink suppliers routines is like
> trying to view a moving target. I've given up. My approach is to use
> someting until I have negative issues. If I have repetitive negative
> concerns I drop a product and move on. But that is why forums like
> this are so valuable. We can relate both the good the bad in real
> time. Price is always a factor as is consistency, and Ernst is right,
> this isn't Germany during the Renaissance - the quality control had to
> be much worse then. But I have to say I have had nothing but perfect
> consistency with Hahnemuhle, for whatever reason.
> 
> John
> 
>> There's little chance you will get all the deals going on at
>> the table. In coatings, substrate, machines used etc. This is
>> a modern industry despite the 1500 AC labels on the packaging.
>> For inks it isn't different. Even new software these days may
>> be relabeled 6 years old technology.
>> 
>>                     --
>>            Ernst Dinkla
>> 
>> 
>> www.pigment-print.com

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by Arthur Fink

At 10:50 AM 1/3/2006, Steve Kale wrote:

>My view is that paper marketers (seems there are few paper manufacturers who
>market their own product to retail) simply need to be open as to their
>products.  I don't mind if Brand A says "we outsource the mill component to
>X according to our specs and coating to Y designed by us or Z."

In some ways I'd like that ... but I can also see the other 
side.  Many, if not most, of the products that we buy are not made by 
the company that's listed as the manufacturer.  Instead, they are 
subcontracted out -- often to fine firms that do an excellent job.  I 
can see why a company would want to say "This is our paper", rather 
than "This paper is made to our standards and with our methodology 
and formulation by XYZ company".

	A r t h u r    F i n k    P h o t o g r a p h y
	-----------------------------------------------
	Ten New Island Avenue         land 207.766.5722
	Peaks Island, Maine 04108     cell 207.615.5722
	www.arthurfinkphoto.com  af@...

	 Photographing people, places, objects, events

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by Steve Kale

Outsourcing things like production makes enormous economic sense but that's
not what I am talking about.  I am simply talking about re-branding and
repackaging someone else's product and calling it your own proprietary
product.  Take mobile telephony in the UK as an example.  If Virgin Mobile,
BT, Carphone Warehouse etc tried to sell you mobile telephony services by
simply saying they were network operators you'd have a bunch of questions
about their network - coverage, international roaming contracts etc etc.
Sensibly they don't and aren't silent as to the physical product they are
selling.  They state clearly that they are resellers AND provide information
about whose network they resell.  As a user you can then make sensible
decisions about the product you're likely to get when you sign up.  We
understand they are repackaging another company's raw product in their
customer service/pricing wrapper but are provided with enough information to
make a judgement re their customer service (and implicitly their brand),
pricing and the actual physical product behind it.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Arthur Fink <af@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 11:26:31 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>,
> <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna,
> Permajet)
> 
> At 10:50 AM 1/3/2006, Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> My view is that paper marketers (seems there are few paper manufacturers who
>> market their own product to retail) simply need to be open as to their
>> products.  I don't mind if Brand A says "we outsource the mill component to
>> X according to our specs and coating to Y designed by us or Z."
> 
> In some ways I'd like that ... but I can also see the other
> side.  Many, if not most, of the products that we buy are not made by
> the company that's listed as the manufacturer.  Instead, they are
> subcontracted out -- often to fine firms that do an excellent job.  I
> can see why a company would want to say "This is our paper", rather
> than "This paper is made to our standards and with our methodology
> and formulation by XYZ company".
> 
> A r t h u r    F i n k    P h o t o g r a p h y
> -----------------------------------------------
> Ten New Island Avenue         land 207.766.5722
> Peaks Island, Maine 04108     cell 207.615.5722
> www.arthurfinkphoto.com  af@...
> 
> Photographing people, places, objects, events
>

Re: [Digital BW] Glitter in some paper coatings (Innova, Eterna, Permajet)

2006-01-03 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

Steve Kale wrote:

> My view is that paper marketers (seems there are few paper 
> manufacturers who
> market their own product to retail) simply need to be open as to their
> products.  I don't mind if Brand A says "we outsource the mill 
> component to
> X according to our specs and coating to Y designed by us or Z."  The point
> is there is a quality product (with longevity testing) and there is 
> openness
> as to how it's produced.  Anyone who markets another's products as 
> their own
> "proprietary" solutions is going to see less interest from me.  I found
> Diana's disclosure a month or so ago refreshing and I would encourage 
> more.
> My bet is that Innova designed a coating (not a substrate) and that 
> the same
> combination is now being marketed by several different businesses as their
> own.

You seem to be highly interested in this idea of "openness" from your 
manufacturers. I'm curious as to why. I don't see how this data 
(assuming you could ever obtain it) will be converted to information. 
I'm assuming that you want this so that you can use it to change your 
own behavior based on how the various players in the market change their 
behavior. If that's not the reason, what is?

It's well known that the paper manufacturing market is highly fluid. Do 
you expect that every time paper is moved from one mill to another that 
the mills will notify you? It isn't going to happen - they don't know 
who you are; you are not their customer. But if it did happen, what 
would you do with the data? Would you stop using HPR if they moved from 
one coating house to another? Would you start using HM Osprey because 
they brought the cutting and packaging in house?

I'm lost - I don't see the value in the openness that you seek. What am 
I missing here?
--
Bruce Watson

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.