Digital BW, The Print

This post is a message to the printer and ink manufacturers to 
complain about the current limited availability of printer/ink 
combinations for B&W output.

In recent posts Nij and George DeWolfe have both mentioned their 
Epson 7000 24" printers setup with Piezo Pro24 software and inks.

http://prographics.epson.com/products/stypro7000/index.html
http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/piezographyBW.html

(Now my EAM Piezo prints are still warm-neutral but I am taking on a 
definite greenish tinge of envy. I hope you guys will keep us updated 
on your experiences and offer some quality comparisons to other 
methods.)

I know we are talking $2,580 for the Piezo side of these systems. I 
have heard about $4,000 for the 7000 and an additional $5,000 for the 
RIP. So I am assuming a total investment of $11,000 to $12,000.

Now at the other end of the scale we have people using native CYMK 
inks in their desktop printers with price points as low as $129 for 
say an Epson Stylus Photo 780. (HP, Canon and others are also making 
better and better inkjet printers that are competitive in price and 
quality) I don't want to debate the merits of this approach at the 
moment but I do want to point out that people such as John Paul 
Caponigro, have written articles on how to do this and should be 
taken seriously.

Moving up the price curve from there to a more solid, wider inkjet 
such as the Epson Stylus Photo 1280 at $499 with a CIS ($225) and 
alternate quad/hex inks (MIS, Piezo,…???) $225 to $390, perhaps the 
Piezo software $375, this hits a price of $1,150 to $1,500. The next 
step would be an Epson 3000 (ancient technology but wider) at $995 
with a set of quad ink cartridges hits $1,500.

So where do we go from $1,500? The next step would be an Epson 5000 
($3,500) or and Epson 7000 ($4,000) with MIS quad cartridges and 
refill kits.

(I would really like to hear from anyone using these printer/inks 
combinations. Big question, is the $5,000 rip required?)

After that it looks like a jump to over $10,000 to get into the Epson 
7000, 9000, 10000 type professional printers with the Piezo Pro 24 
and RIPs.

Hello manufacturers!!! Are you listening?!? There are some rather 
huge price range gaps that appear to be dead empty of any products 
for making B&W prints! There is a lesson for you in the recent mid-
format scanner price drops of the Nikon 8000 and Polaroid 120. People 
literally lined up to pay the $2,700 to $3,200 prices for these 
units. I believe there is a strong market for a B&W printing system 
in the $2,000 to $3,000 range that offers improved paper handling and 
tonality over the $1,500 and lower priced systems.

There is a huge market that has been identified by the horrible 
term "prosumer" which I take to mean advanced amateurs, part time 
pros, and beginning pros that are willing to purchase photo equipment 
one or two steps below full-blown professional equipment. The 35mm 
camera companies seem to have pegged this rather well and are 
offering many great products to this market.

The digital printer and the B&W ink manufactures need to realize that 
there is this a large customer base that is absolutely devoted to 
photography but derive little or no income from their 
efforts. "Amateur" is not a word to describe these people because 
their level of skill and passion often meets or exceeds many 
professionals. However, their buying decisions are very different.

A professional you can sit down and do a cost analysis to determine 
if it is a good business decision. This other group of non-profit 
artists are forced to examine their "disposable income" to make their 
decision.

I think the market exists. Please fill it and make yourselves some 
money. And let us hear from you!

Sincerely,
Martin Wesley

This post is a message to the printer and ink manufacturers to 
complain about the current limited availability of printer/ink 
combinations for B&W output.

In recent posts Nij and George DeWolfe have both mentioned their 
Epson 7000 24" printers setup with Piezo Pro24 software and inks.

http://prographics.epson.com/products/stypro7000/index.html
http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/piezographyBW.html

(Now my EAM Piezo prints are still warm-neutral but I am taking on a 
definite greenish tinge of envy. I hope you guys will keep us updated 
on your experiences and offer some quality comparisons to other 
methods.)

I know we are talking $2,580 for the Piezo side of these systems. I 
have heard about $4,000 for the 7000 and an additional $5,000 for the 
RIP. So I am assuming a total investment of $11,000 to $12,000.

Now at the other end of the scale we have people using native CYMK 
inks in their desktop printers with price points as low as $129 for 
say an Epson Stylus Photo 780. (HP, Canon and others are also making 
better and better inkjet printers that are competitive in price and 
quality) I don't want to debate the merits of this approach at the 
moment but I do want to point out that people such as John Paul 
Caponigro, have written articles on how to do this and should be 
taken seriously.

Moving up the price curve from there to a more solid, wider inkjet 
such as the Epson Stylus Photo 1280 at $499 with a CIS ($225) and 
alternate quad/hex inks (MIS, Piezo,…???) $225 to $390, perhaps the 
Piezo software $375, this hits a price of $1,150 to $1,500. The next 
step would be an Epson 3000 (ancient technology but wider) at $995 
with a set of quad ink cartridges hits $1,500.

So where do we go from $1,500? The next step would be an Epson 5000 
($3,500) or and Epson 7000 ($4,000) with MIS quad cartridges and 
refill kits.

(I would really like to hear from anyone using these printer/inks 
combinations. Big question, is the $5,000 rip required?)

After that it looks like a jump to over $10,000 to get into the Epson 
7000, 9000, 10000 type professional printers with the Piezo Pro 24 
and RIPs.

Hello manufacturers!!! Are you listening?!? There are some rather 
huge price range gaps that appear to be dead empty of any products 
for making B&W prints! There is a lesson for you in the recent mid-
format scanner price drops of the Nikon 8000 and Polaroid 120. People 
literally lined up to pay the $2,700 to $3,200 prices for these 
units. I believe there is a strong market for a B&W printing system 
in the $2,000 to $3,000 range that offers improved paper handling and 
tonality over the $1,500 and lower priced systems.

There is a huge market that has been identified by the horrible 
term "prosumer" which I take to mean advanced amateurs, part time 
pros, and beginning pros that are willing to purchase photo equipment 
one or two steps below full-blown professional equipment. The 35mm 
camera companies seem to have pegged this rather well and are 
offering many great products to this market.

The digital printer and the B&W ink manufactures need to realize that 
there is this a large customer base that is absolutely devoted to 
photography but derive little or no income from their 
efforts. "Amateur" is not a word to describe these people because 
their level of skill and passion often meets or exceeds many 
professionals. However, their buying decisions are very different.

A professional you can sit down and do a cost analysis to determine 
if it is a good business decision. This other group of non-profit 
artists are forced to examine their "disposable income" to make their 
decision.

I think the market exists. Please fill it and make yourselves some 
money. And let us hear from you!

Sincerely,
Martin Wesley

Martin,

I agree with your post but just want to correct some of your cost estimates
for the 7000 system, which I also use with immense satisfaction.  The 7000
printer with stand cost me $3500 delivered to my door, after the $500
rebate.  Jon Cone's Piezography Pro RIP package, (RIP, flushing carts, and
inkset), was less than $2200.  Total cost for the 7000 system is thus less
than $5700.  My first impression of the RIP was that it is sort of
amateurish, comparing it to my Wasatch SoftRip; but you know, after you see
the prints, it doesn't matter.  I have been a silver and platinum printer
for over 25 years, and now, without question, I'm making the best monochrome
prints of my life with PiezoPro.  In fact, I'm slowly going back through
thousands of my 4x5 and 8x10 negatives and reprinting them.   FYI, my
workflow for B&W negs is as follows:  scan on my Howtek HR 8000 in 16-bit
grayscale-green at 4000 spi optical resolution.  This lets me feed the
printer 8-bit files with resolutions over 1000 dpi .  The results are
stunning at 23x29.  BTW, I also use the 1160 and the 3000 for Piezography.
There's no difference in print quality with the printers I have.

Regards,

Ron Landucci
Golden, Colorado


>  I know we are talking $2,580 for the Piezo side of these systems. I
>  have heard about $4,000 for the 7000 and an additional $5,000 for the
> RIP. So I am assuming a total investment of $11,000 to $12,000.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ron,

Thanks for the correction on the Piezo Pro24 pricing. It is currently 
$2,130 on their website. I did not realize that it included a RIP (a 
software RIP I assume and not hardware?) I was under the impression 
the Epson X2 Fiery RIP or third party hardware RIP was required. (I 
did leave out the issue for Mac users of needing to purchase some 
sort of PC to drive it.)

This makes it even move tantalizing of course but no less out of 
reach at the moment! Sigh. Well a least it has farther to fall to get 
into the $2,000 to $3,000 range.

The other issue I have is that I rarely print larger than 11X14 and 
the 7000 would be overkill. (Of course if I could, no doubt I would!) 
I wish the 5000 would take 17" paper and was about $2,500 instead of 
only about $500 less than the 7000 and of course that Piezo Pro24 was 
available for it.

I was a little confused by your last comment, "BTW, I also use the 
1160 and the 3000 for Piezography. There's no difference in print 
quality with the printers I have." Were you just referring to the 
1160 and 3000 being equal in quality or was the 7000 also included in 
that assessment?

Other than the ability to print larger, how do you rate the 
price/performance return of spending the extra $4,200 over the $1,200 
to $1,500 spent for a regular Piezo with CIS?

Thanks,
Martin

P.S. Apologies for the double post. Serve lag problem.


 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ron Landucci" <ron@p...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> I agree with your post but just want to correct some of your cost 
estimates
> for the 7000 system, which I also use with immense satisfaction.  
The 7000
> printer with stand cost me $3500 delivered to my door, after the 
$500
> rebate.  Jon Cone's Piezography Pro RIP package, (RIP, flushing 
carts, and
> inkset), was less than $2200.  Total cost for the 7000 system is 
thus less
> than $5700.  My first impression of the RIP was that it is sort of
> amateurish, comparing it to my Wasatch SoftRip; but you know, after 
you see
> the prints, it doesn't matter.  I have been a silver and platinum 
printer
> for over 25 years, and now, without question, I'm making the best 
monochrome
> prints of my life with PiezoPro.  In fact, I'm slowly going back 
through
> thousands of my 4x5 and 8x10 negatives and reprinting them.   FYI, 
my
> workflow for B&W negs is as follows:  scan on my Howtek HR 8000 in 
16-bit
> grayscale-green at 4000 spi optical resolution.  This lets me feed 
the
> printer 8-bit files with resolutions over 1000 dpi .  The results 
are
> stunning at 23x29.  BTW, I also use the 1160 and the 3000 for 
Piezography.
> There's no difference in print quality with the printers I have.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ron Landucci
> Golden, Colorado
> 
> 
> >  I know we are talking $2,580 for the Piezo side of these 
systems. I
> >  have heard about $4,000 for the 7000 and an additional $5,000 
for the

> > RIP. So I am assuming a total investment of $11,000 to $12,000.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martin,

Cone's RIP is a software RIP and no, you don't need a hardware RIP.  But, as
you pointed out, you do need a PC, and yes, if you're Mac only, that'll set
you back another $2000 or so.

Sorry about the confusion regarding the printers.  I meant that I see no
difference in quality amongst the 1160, 3000, and the 7000 output.

Regarding the price/performance issue, given that the print quality is the
same from the 13" printer as it is from the 24" printer, the jump in price
for the extra width is a very big one.  Is it worth it, probably not, but
what can you do?  If you only occasionally need the larger output, then it's
certainly wiser to have them printed elsewhere - call me, I'm cheap <g>.

Not that it's any consolation, but the jump in price to go from 13" output
to wide-format color can be even a harder pill to swallow.  The fact that
Cone supplies the profiles for his inks with a number of papers is a
substantial cost and energy saver.  I'm too embarrassed to say what I spent
for color management hardware and software.  Everybody who knows me thinks
I'm nuts, spending what I have on my hobby.  What can I say, I'm obsessed.

Cheers,

Ron

  Thanks for the correction on the Piezo Pro24 pricing. It is currently
  $2,130 on their website. I did not realize that it included a RIP (a
  software RIP I assume and not hardware?) I was under the impression
  the Epson X2 Fiery RIP or third party hardware RIP was required. (I
  did leave out the issue for Mac users of needing to purchase some
  sort of PC to drive it.)

  I was a little confused by your last comment, "BTW, I also use the
  1160 and the 3000 for Piezography. There's no difference in print
  quality with the printers I have." Were you just referring to the
  1160 and 3000 being equal in quality or was the 7000 also included in
  that assessment?

  Other than the ability to print larger, how do you rate the
  price/performance return of spending the extra $4,200 over the $1,200
  to $1,500 spent for a regular Piezo with CIS?

  Thanks,
  Martin




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martin,

I think I am still waiting for the BW part of the equation... but soon!
George, I believe, has probably had some decent experience with the setup -
my assumption based on his reviews on the Cone web-site. (By the way
George - love your images on that site / review).

I will let you know how I get on!

I do know what you mean about the system-gap. The 7000 is a BIG printer - I
have a small shelf next to me with two 1160's on different shelves (one with
CIS), a bucket load of spares, hanging files, paper. The 7000 sits behind
this lot (facing the other way) and dwarfs them! Unfortunately, the benefits
of using printers like the 5000 are, I imagine, undone by it's smaller sheet
size and so on than the 3000. The sequence in printer size actually goes
12xx... 5x00... 3000... 7x00... 9x00 etc but in price the 3000 and and 5x00
swap round so it all gets rather confused. Does anyone have any experience
of the 5x00 printers wrt paper feeding? Is it a 'pro workhorse' or an
overpriced desktop unit??? :)

nij

-----Original Message-----
From: mwesley250@... [mailto:mwesley250@...]
Sent: 30 July 2001 19:01
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] The B&W Print System Gap


This post is a message to the printer and ink manufacturers to
complain about the current limited availability of printer/ink
combinations for B&W output.

In recent posts Nij and George DeWolfe have both mentioned their
Epson 7000 24" printers setup with Piezo Pro24 software and inks.

http://prographics.epson.com/products/stypro7000/index.html
http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/piezographyBW.html

<snip>

Ron...

Don't shout too load about the $500 rebate! <I know you didn't - I just want
to make a point!>

$500 rebate... not available in the UK
$1000 rebate (on 9xxx and 10xxx printers)... not available in the UK
$500??? free media pack for 9xxx and 10xxx users... not available in the UK.

How gutted am I?

Nij

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Landucci [mailto:ron@...]
Sent: 30 July 2001 19:51
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] The B&W Print System Gap


Martin,

I agree with your post but just want to correct some of your cost estimates
for the 7000 system, which I also use with immense satisfaction.  The 7000
printer with stand cost me $3500 delivered to my door, after the $500
rebate.  Jon Cone's Piezography Pro RIP package, (RIP, flushing carts, and
inkset), was less than $2200.  Total cost for the 7000 system is thus less
than $5700.  My first impression of the RIP was that it is sort of
amateurish, comparing it to my Wasatch SoftRip; but you know, after you see
the prints, it doesn't matter.  I have been a silver and platinum printer
for over 25 years, and now, without question, I'm making the best monochrome
prints of my life with PiezoPro.  In fact, I'm slowly going back through
thousands of my 4x5 and 8x10 negatives and reprinting them.   FYI, my
workflow for B&W negs is as follows:  scan on my Howtek HR 8000 in 16-bit
grayscale-green at 4000 spi optical resolution.  This lets me feed the
printer 8-bit files with resolutions over 1000 dpi .  The results are
stunning at 23x29.  BTW, I also use the 1160 and the 3000 for Piezography.
There's no difference in print quality with the printers I have.

Regards,

Ron Landucci
Golden, Colorado


>  I know we are talking $2,580 for the Piezo side of these systems. I
>  have heard about $4,000 for the 7000 and an additional $5,000 for the
> RIP. So I am assuming a total investment of $11,000 to $12,000.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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on 7/30/01 7:13 PM, Nij wrote:

> Martin,
> 
> I think I am still waiting for the BW part of the equation... but soon!
> George, I believe, has probably had some decent experience with the setup -
> my assumption based on his reviews on the Cone web-site. (By the way
> George - love your images on that site / review).

Sorry, where might I see George's images?

Todd

Nij,

I know what you mean about the 5000. It definately seems like an odd 
duck. If they had made it a 17" printer like the 3000 it would have 
made more sense.

It is difficult to find pricing on the web since I gather this class 
of printer is meant to be sold through a distributor. What I have 
seen, places the 5000 at only $500 less then the 7000. So who is 
going to buy them? If they have the mechanicals of the 7000, 9000, 
etc. they are way too good and pricy for an office/desktop printer 
but if you are an art printer why wouldn't you spring the extra $500 
for the 24" printer. Don't get it. Maybe they will go on sale.

Specs say they have a rear feed. The bottom tray feed would not be of 
much use for art papers.

Even if a 7000 arrived free on my doorstep I would be in trouble as 
there is no room left unless I cut a hole in the wall. Well maybe for 
a free 7000 I could.......

Good luck with the 7000!

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@n...> wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> I think I am still waiting for the BW part of the equation... but 
soon!
> George, I believe, has probably had some decent experience with the 
setup -
> my assumption based on his reviews on the Cone web-site. (By the way
> George - love your images on that site / review).
> 
> I will let you know how I get on!
> 
> I do know what you mean about the system-gap. The 7000 is a BIG 
printer - I
> have a small shelf next to me with two 1160's on different shelves 
(one with
> CIS), a bucket load of spares, hanging files, paper. The 7000 sits 
behind
> this lot (facing the other way) and dwarfs them! Unfortunately, the 
benefits
> of using printers like the 5000 are, I imagine, undone by it's 
smaller sheet
> size and so on than the 3000. The sequence in printer size actually 
goes
> 12xx... 5x00... 3000... 7x00... 9x00 etc but in price the 3000 and 
and 5x00
> swap round so it all gets rather confused. Does anyone have any 
experience
> of the 5x00 printers wrt paper feeding? Is it a 'pro workhorse' or 
an
> overpriced desktop unit??? :)
> 
> nij
> 
(snip earlier)

Try:

http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/exhibition-printing.html

I actually now notice that the images are not directly attributed to
George... I think it's a fair assumption though.

Nij

-----Original Message-----
From: tflash [mailto:tflash@...]
Sent: 31 July 2001 00:48
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] The B&W Print System Gap


on 7/30/01 7:13 PM, Nij wrote:

> Martin,
>
> I think I am still waiting for the BW part of the equation... but soon!
> George, I believe, has probably had some decent experience with the
setup -
> my assumption based on his reviews on the Cone web-site. (By the way
> George - love your images on that site / review).

Sorry, where might I see George's images?

Todd

Yep.

And any 'pro' product. And the same for reviews - apart from at FLAAR, which
I have heard some bad things about recently (on Epson 9000 group).
Distributors are all very well when they are there to _really_help_ - either
through product selection, locality, whatever. It all seems a bit odd when
you call Epson, they tell you to call the distributor, distributor tells you
to call reseller, you ask for 7000 (i.e. 'Value Added Nothing'), reseller
calls Distributor for ?100 drop-shipment. Once again... just my current view
of a situation I don't yet understand.

Back onto pro products, I have sent many emails over time to various drum
scanner manufacturers... many have remained unanswered... and that's after
spending ages to find the site in the first place.

It certainly is very frustrating - most pro places seem to rely on you
calling - which is fine if only they were around at 2am!

Nij

-----Original Message-----
From: mwesley250@... [mailto:mwesley250@...]
<snip>
It is difficult to find pricing on the web since I gather this class
of printer is meant to be sold through a distributor.
<snip>

Nij

The images on the Cone web site are mine, guilty as charged. 
I've tried a bunch of different papers with the Somesville White 
Fence, and Somerset Enhanced and Wells River are the best 
I've been able to do. The tonal range of that print is simply 
astounding in terms of realtive values and what we were used to 
with traditional Black and White. Cranes is really nice, too, but 
I've only had a chance to test just a few sheets. We need a profile 
for it, of course, but I found that the WVHWHR profile works the 
best out of all of them on the 3000 and the 1160. 

I have a 5500, noticing the talk about the 5x00 series. I call it the 
"Bird," because it's always preening itself, i.e., cleaning cycles 
every 5 minutes. It's a great machine - and tough. I printed 50 
Pagemaker docs, each 150 pages long, one day, and it didn't 
miss a beat.  I also name my other printers - the 3000 is the 
"Mule" for obvious reasons. The 1160 is "Patty Duke," because 
that's what it sounds like when printing. The 2000, which I don't 
have any more, was a hoot. I named it "F--k Y-u" because that's 
what it sounds like when working. Lydia, my significant other, 
says I need a real break from this stuff. 

The 7000 is Big Dog. My favorite, but all the Piezography tasked 
printers print with the same 2100 dpi quality. I found that the 
7000 actually changed my shooting habits with the 4x5. I now 
use a 6x loupe rather than a 4x because of the critical image 
sharpness necessary for a scan to go up to 24 inches x ?  It 
really does make a difference.

George

Thanks NIA. Very nice indeed George!

Todd

> Try:
> 
> http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/exhibition-printing.html
> 
> I actually now notice that the images are not directly attributed to
> George... I think it's a fair assumption though.
> 
> Nij
> 

> 
>> Martin,
>> 
>> I think I am still waiting for the BW part of the equation... but soon!
>> George, I believe, has probably had some decent experience with the
> setup -
>> my assumption based on his reviews on the Cone web-site. (By the way
>> George - love your images on that site / review).
> 
> Sorry, where might I see George's images?
> 
> Todd

George,

Wonderful prints. I really love the picket fence. I have been seeing 
your work in print now for quite a few years and it has always 
pleased my eye. I came to the zone system first by way of Fred 
Picker's book. Fred used to write the most annoying things but he had 
some bits of sage Yankee advice, "Find a photographer who makes good 
prints and find out how they do it." So here I am.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "George DeWolfe" 
<dewolfe@m...> wrote:

(snip)

> I found that the 
> 7000 actually changed my shooting habits with the 4x5. I now 
> use a 6x loupe rather than a 4x because of the critical image 
> sharpness necessary for a scan to go up to 24 inches x ?  It 
> really does make a difference.

George,

Do you feel this is a result of the quality of how the 7000 lays down 
ink, the increase in print size or both.

Martin

Martin

Not sure. I think, though, that it's just the sheer size of the 
enlargement going from a 55PN negative to a film scanner that 
can take it that high. If the 3000 were 24" wide you'd have the 
same problem.

George

> George,
> 
> Do you feel this is a result of the quality of how the 7000 lays 
down 

> ink, the increase in print size or both.
> 
> Martin

Yes, funnily enough, I have been managing to make a small amount of time
available for mucking round with Epson dye inks on the 7000 whilst I wait
for the Pro24... resampling a bad colour scan up to 24" * 16" at 180dpi
produces stunning images - nice up close too - but I rather imagine this
will not work quite so well with the quality of the B&W.

I am amazed by how many learning curves I have faced in the last few
months - third-party inks, CIS systems, failing Epson 1270 (with OEM inks!),
Photoshop, print quality showing scan and negative deficiencies (with
Piezography), and now wide-format printers! Still - it's all good fun!

Nij

-----Original Message-----
From: George DeWolfe [mailto:dewolfe@...]
Sent: 31 July 2001 03:44
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] Re: The B&W Print System Gap



Nij

The images on the Cone web site are mine, guilty as charged.
I've tried a bunch of different papers with the Somesville White
Fence, and Somerset Enhanced and Wells River are the best
I've been able to do. The tonal range of that print is simply
astounding in terms of realtive values and what we were used to
with traditional Black and White. Cranes is really nice, too, but
I've only had a chance to test just a few sheets. We need a profile
for it, of course, but I found that the WVHWHR profile works the
best out of all of them on the 3000 and the 1160.

I have a 5500, noticing the talk about the 5x00 series. I call it the
"Bird," because it's always preening itself, i.e., cleaning cycles
every 5 minutes. It's a great machine - and tough. I printed 50
Pagemaker docs, each 150 pages long, one day, and it didn't
miss a beat.  I also name my other printers - the 3000 is the
"Mule" for obvious reasons. The 1160 is "Patty Duke," because
that's what it sounds like when printing. The 2000, which I don't
have any more, was a hoot. I named it "F--k Y-u" because that's
what it sounds like when working. Lydia, my significant other,
says I need a real break from this stuff.

The 7000 is Big Dog. My favorite, but all the Piezography tasked
printers print with the same 2100 dpi quality. I found that the
7000 actually changed my shooting habits with the 4x5. I now
use a 6x loupe rather than a 4x because of the critical image
sharpness necessary for a scan to go up to 24 inches x ?  It
really does make a difference.

George



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George,

Thanks to you and to Ron Landucci for your input on the 7000. While 
the 7000 sounds like the way to go if you can, I am reassured that I 
am not missing big print quality improvement by continuing with my 
1200.

Is there a good correlation better the smaller printers and the 7000? 
What I am getting at is how painless would it be to send an 11 X 14 
from my 1200 on the paper I wanted and the file to a service bureau 
to be printed on a 7000 at 24 X 30?

Thanks,
Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "George DeWolfe" 
<dewolfe@m...> wrote:

> Martin
> 
> Not sure. I think, though, that it's just the sheer size of the 
> enlargement going from a 55PN negative to a film scanner that 
> can take it that high. If the 3000 were 24" wide you'd have the 
> same problem.
> 
> George
> 
> > George,
> > 
> > Do you feel this is a result of the quality of how the 7000 lays 
> down 
> > ink, the increase in print size or both.
> > 
> > Martin

Martin,

I don't know if you're addressing your question specifically to George, but
I'll throw in my two cents anyhow.  I scan my negs so that I can go out to
the RIP with at least 720 dpi at 100%.  I scan for 24" wide output.  If I
make smaller prints, then I'm OK; sometimes sending out over 1000 dpi to the
RIP.  You'll have to do the math to see how much resolution you'll have at
the larger file sizes.  For example, if you're printing an 11x14 at 360 dpi,
you'll only have 204 dpi at 20x24, and 166 dpi at 24x30.  I think you'll
start to see your print quality go way down if you output less than 360 dpi,
and I don't think you'd be happy with the print in those sizes at those
resolutions.  If you do want to go out that big, then get some more dpi to
work with through a higher rez scan.  Recall that Jon Cone suggests feeding
the driver only the data you get from the scan, not rezzing up.  I haven't
tried Genuine Fractals for B&W work, as I can get all the dpi I want through
my scanner, but I have used it for some color work, and it seems to do a
great job as long as you start with a big enough file, say 20 MB or larger.

I don't want to turn into a service bureau, but I'd be glad to help any list
members without the resources get either big prints or big scans.  I use a
Howtek HiResolve 8000 drum scanner and the 7000 with PiezoPro.

Ron

   >  Is there a good correlation better the smaller printers and the 7000?
   >  What I am getting at is how painless would it be to send an 11 X 14
   >  from my 1200 on the paper I wanted and the file to a service bureau
   >  to be printed on a 7000 at 24 X 30?

   >  Thanks,
   >  Martin




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martin, 
I ask myself the same question.  I hope you get an answer.  I have an image that looks good at 11x16.5 but would be really nice at 24 x 30.  

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mwesley250@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 11:32 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: The B&W Print System Gap


  George,

  Thanks to you and to Ron Landucci for your input on the 7000. While 
  the 7000 sounds like the way to go if you can, I am reassured that I 
  am not missing big print quality improvement by continuing with my 
  1200.

  Is there a good correlation better the smaller printers and the 7000? 
  What I am getting at is how painless would it be to send an 11 X 14 
  from my 1200 on the paper I wanted and the file to a service bureau 
  to be printed on a 7000 at 24 X 30?

  Thanks,
  Martin



  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "George DeWolfe" 
  <dewolfe@m...> wrote:
  > Martin
  > 
  > Not sure. I think, though, that it's just the sheer size of the 
  > enlargement going from a 55PN negative to a film scanner that 
  > can take it that high. If the 3000 were 24" wide you'd have the 
  > same problem.
  > 
  > George
  > 
  > > George,
  > > 
  > > Do you feel this is a result of the quality of how the 7000 lays 
  > down 
  > > ink, the increase in print size or both.
  > > 
  > > Martin


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  unsubscribe by sending an email to:
  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ron,

The question was to both of you. It was supposed to be "between" and 
not "better" in my post but I think you sorted it out.

I tend to forget about resolution working with Piezo and the Epson 
1200 since I always have enough for the sizes I am working at and the 
Piezo driver doesn't seem to care what you feed it in terms of dpi, 
one of its nice features.

I have been scanning my 6X7 negs at 4000 dpi so even at 24 by 30 I 
would be in the 360 dpi range. I don't know if they would hold up in 
terms of sharpness that big. I only have my 1200 dpi flatbed for 4X5, 
which at 360 only gets me up to 13" wide and I can print on the 1200. 
(Hmmmm... really need that 45 Ultra with 2500dpi...) 

Your offer to help is most generous and I just might take you up on 
it.

Thanks,
Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ron Landucci" <ron@p...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> I don't know if you're addressing your question specifically to 
George, but
> I'll throw in my two cents anyhow.  I scan my negs so that I can go 
out to
> the RIP with at least 720 dpi at 100%.  I scan for 24" wide 
output.  If I
> make smaller prints, then I'm OK; sometimes sending out over 1000 
dpi to the
> RIP.  You'll have to do the math to see how much resolution you'll 
have at
> the larger file sizes.  For example, if you're printing an 11x14 at 
360 dpi,
> you'll only have 204 dpi at 20x24, and 166 dpi at 24x30.  I think 
you'll
> start to see your print quality go way down if you output less than 
360 dpi,
> and I don't think you'd be happy with the print in those sizes at 
those
> resolutions.  If you do want to go out that big, then get some more 
dpi to
> work with through a higher rez scan.  Recall that Jon Cone suggests 
feeding
> the driver only the data you get from the scan, not rezzing up.  I 
haven't
> tried Genuine Fractals for B&W work, as I can get all the dpi I 
want through
> my scanner, but I have used it for some color work, and it seems to 
do a
> great job as long as you start with a big enough file, say 20 MB or 
larger.
> 
> I don't want to turn into a service bureau, but I'd be glad to help 
any list
> members without the resources get either big prints or big scans.  
I use a
> Howtek HiResolve 8000 drum scanner and the 7000 with PiezoPro.
> 
> Ron

(snip earlier)