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PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by kcooper666

Hi

I've just finished a review of the new MonoChromePro pigment based ink set from 
PermaJet in the UK.

It's at:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/monochromepro_review.html

The printer used was an Epson 1290.

As supplied they suggest using the Epson driver with adjustments or additional Photoshop 
curves. I also tried using QuadToneRIP and building curves for the Delta Matt Fibre and 
Museum Classic papers from PermaJet. I've included info about some of my QTR curve 
building experiences and comparisons with prints done on my Epson 9600 using the 
ImagePrint RIP that I use for most of my B/W landscape prints that I sell.

Hope it's of interest :-)

bye for now
Keith Cooper

PS
I have no commercial connection with PermaJet

RE: [Norton AntiSpam] [Digital BW] PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by Jim Farrell

Keith,

            Great article, out of interest, have you experienced any nozzle
clogging using the pigment inks on a 1290, I use the MIS inks and get the
Black ink clogging up; nice to see that someone else uses QTR.

 

Regards

 

Jim Farrell

 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by John Vitollo

"kcooper666"  wrote:
> I've just finished a review of the new MonoChromePro pigment based ink set from 
> PermaJet in the UK.
> http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/monochromepro_review.html

Keith...nice article but QTR isn't free...costs $50.00.

Re: [Norton AntiSpam] [Digital BW] PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by kcooper666

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Farrell" <jim@a...> wrote:
> Keith,
>             Great article, out of interest, have you experienced any nozzle
> clogging using the pigment inks on a 1290, I use the MIS inks and get the
> Black ink clogging up; nice to see that someone else uses QTR.
Thanks!
I've not had any problems with clogging but then again I've only put a few of the new 
cartidges through the 1290... and I do have that 9600 sitting in the room next door :-)

I think it was quite important to run the cleaning cartridges before the changeover since 
Ink pH mismatches are great for causing sediment build up and clogs. The PJ inks are also 
available for the 2100 where I suspect that as it was designed for pigments from the start, 
there would be less likelihood of clogs. Maybe running the cleaning carts every so many 
cartridge changes might keep the system 'fresh'?

There are no curves published by PJ for the 2100, but if the performance is like the 
examples I tried for the 2100 it might be best going for QTR from the start.

The QTR tests were certainly interesting and produced very good results. I should imagine 
that only a minority of people using the software would have an Eye One sitting around, so 
curve generation and linearisation would probably not be an easy option for most ;-(

bye for now

Keith

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by kcooper666

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@c...> wrote:
>  "kcooper666"  wrote:
> > I've just finished a review of the new MonoChromePro pigment based ink set from 
> > PermaJet in the UK.
> > http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/monochromepro_review.html
> 
> Keith...nice article but QTR isn't free...costs $50.00.

The printing part is free. The curve generation part is shareware and asks for the $50 if you 
use it regularly
see
http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

Is this not the case for the PC version? Just I've not got a PC and never tried it on one

Keith

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by John Vitollo

Interesting...I just read Roy's shareware paragraph...sure is confusing! You might be right..

> > Keith...nice article but QTR isn't free...costs $50.00.
> The printing part is free. The curve generation part is shareware and asks for the $50 if 
you 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> use it regularly
> see
> http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html
> Is this not the case for the PC version? Just I've not got a PC and never tried it on one
> Keith

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by kcooper666

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> Aren't these MIS inks?
> Tyler

Are they?

I don't have any info on where the inks actually come from. PermaJet are a UK company based 
not too far from where I live (in the UK midlands) and after seeing some of my B/W work, 
asked if I'd be interested in looking at some of their new products...

Do you think they are any particular product from MIS?

Keith

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by dfaprinting

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kcooper666" 
<yahoogroups@n...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> > Aren't these MIS inks?
> > Tyler
> 
> Are they?
> 
> I don't have any info on where the inks actually come from. 
PermaJet are a UK company based 
> not too far from where I live (in the UK midlands) and after seeing 
some of my B/W work, 
> asked if I'd be interested in looking at some of their new 
products...
> 
> Do you think they are any particular product from MIS?
> 
> Keith

More likely is that they buy the ink from the same manufacturer, if 
they are indeed the same inks. But then again, who knows.

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by kcooper666

> More likely is that they buy the ink from the same manufacturer, if 
> they are indeed the same inks. But then again, who knows.

I was just looking at the MIS site and couldn't see a direct match. If they are the same then 
you could have a US version of the review where you substitute product names ;-)

In some ways what I really found was that to get the best out of the inks you had to use a 
driver like QTR, when they were excellent. The Photoshop curves technique is a good way to 
get the best out of the Epson driver, but when it comes down to it the Epson driver is meant 
for their own colour inks...

Keith

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by Steven Karafyllakis

Keith;

I think Roy needs to update his policy; that statement dates back to 
the earliest releases, and doesn't take into account a lot of work 
done since then, such as the installer, the several dozen curves 
that Roy and others have added that make QTR useable 'out of the 
box', on-goin work to support new printers, and Steve Billiard's GUI 
which now comes integrated, and without which most of us wouldn't be 
using QTR at all.
It may be a fact that under the hood there is some publicly-licensed 
code being used, (Microsoft uses some too, when was the last time 
you heard them say any part of their programs are free?) but how do 
you actually use QTR without using some or all of the above? Try 
downloading Gimp-Print and making it do what QTR does-it ain't gonna 
happen, so let's be fair: at $50.00 it's the cheapest RIP on the 
market, and worth much more. 
In fairness to Roy, Steve, and all; the other fine folks who have 
contributed, please consider changing your article.


Steve Karafyllakis


-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" 
<jvlist@c...> wrote:
> Interesting...I just read Roy's shareware paragraph...sure is 
confusing! You might be right..
> 
> > > Keith...nice article but QTR isn't free...costs $50.00.
> > The printing part is free. The curve generation part is 
shareware and asks for the $50 if 
> you 
> > use it regularly
> > see
> > http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html
> > Is this not the case for the PC version? Just I've not got a PC 
and never tried it on one
> > Keith

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by kcooper666

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> 
wrote:
> Keith;
> 
> I think Roy needs to update his policy; that statement dates back to 
> the earliest releases, and doesn't take into account a lot of work 
> done since then, such as the installer, the several dozen curves 
> that Roy and others have added that make QTR useable 'out of the 
> box', on-goin work to support new printers, and Steve Billiard's GUI 
> which now comes integrated, and without which most of us wouldn't be 
> using QTR at all.
> It may be a fact that under the hood there is some publicly-licensed 
> code being used, (Microsoft uses some too, when was the last time 
> you heard them say any part of their programs are free?) but how do 
> you actually use QTR without using some or all of the above? Try 
> downloading Gimp-Print and making it do what QTR does-it ain't gonna 
> happen, so let's be fair: at $50.00 it's the cheapest RIP on the 
> market, and worth much more. 
> In fairness to Roy, Steve, and all; the other fine folks who have 
> contributed, please consider changing your article.
>  
> Steve Karafyllakis

Sorry but no...
if the terms on the web site say what is what, then it is not for me to interpret or second 
guess them. If you wish to donate $50 (or more) for the printing part, then that is purely 
for you to decide.

As to the QTR GUI - it's a windows thing and I've not got a PC so I've never used it. I 
believe it is included in the PC download. If you go to the site referenced you will find this 
statement:
"QTRgui is a front end to Roy Harrington's Quad Tone RIP for Windows. It is also 
FreeWare."

If Roy changes the terms on the site then I would happily change the wording. The terms 
happen to be quite clearly stated on his site to anyone who downloads the software.

I am not saying it isn't worth the money and isn't a great piece of software, but that's really 
not the point.

Keith

Re: [Digital BW] Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by Tom Baker

Keith  -
 
You might be right.  But, I don't think that your's is a very honorable approach.
 
Tom Baker

kcooper666 <yahoogroups@....uk> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Karafyllakis" 
wrote:
> Keith;
> 
> I think Roy needs to update his policy; that statement dates back to 
> the earliest releases, and doesn't take into account a lot of work 
> done since then, such as the installer, the several dozen curves 
> that Roy and others have added that make QTR useable 'out of the 
> box', on-goin work to support new printers, and Steve Billiard's GUI 
> which now comes integrated, and without which most of us wouldn't be 
> using QTR at all.
> It may be a fact that under the hood there is some publicly-licensed 
> code being used, (Microsoft uses some too, when was the last time 
> you heard them say any part of their programs are free?) but how do 
> you actually use QTR without using some or all of the above? Try 
> downloading Gimp-Print and making it do what QTR does-it ain't gonna 
> happen, so let's be fair: at $50.00 it's the cheapest RIP on the 
> market, and worth much more. 
> In fairness to Roy, Steve, and all; the other fine folks who have 
> contributed, please consider changing your article.
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis

Sorry but no...
if the terms on the web site say what is what, then it is not for me to interpret or second 
guess them. If you wish to donate $50 (or more) for the printing part, then that is purely 
for you to decide.

As to the QTR GUI - it's a windows thing and I've not got a PC so I've never used it. I 
believe it is included in the PC download. If you go to the site referenced you will find this 
statement:
"QTRgui is a front end to Roy Harrington's Quad Tone RIP for Windows. It is also 
FreeWare."

If Roy changes the terms on the site then I would happily change the wording. The terms 
happen to be quite clearly stated on his site to anyone who downloads the software.

I am not saying it isn't worth the money and isn't a great piece of software, but that's really 
not the point.

Keith





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kcooper666"
<yahoogroups@n...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> > Aren't these MIS inks?
> > Tyler
> 
> Are they?

I really have no problem with whether they are or aren't. Either way
is fine with me. I just want to keep good up to date knowledge of
exactly what inks are out there and what they do.
A new monochromatic set on the market would definitely be "news".
Tyler

[Digital BW] Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-07-31 by kcooper666

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@s...> 
wrote:
> Keith  -
>  
> You might be right.  But, I don't think that your's is a very honorable approach.
>  
> Tom Baker
> 
Eh? Just how is that?

Am I now supposed to give my estimation of worth when I mention a program? 

"Here is the new version of PhotoShop, it's so good I think you should ignore the price tag 
and send Adobe $1000"  I don't think so :-)

The QTR stuff is excellent... 

Keith

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-08-01 by Steven Karafyllakis

OK, Keith, you don't use the GUI.... point is, how do you separate 
out the 'printing part'? Either you use the provided curves, which 
where after all generated using the 'curve creation' part, or you 
use the curve creation yourself to make your own custom curves. 
Either way you are making use of Roy's hard work and ingenuity, and 
taking advantage of his good will (and poor business accumen-sorry 
Roy)to peddle someone else's product. Sorry if that sounds harsh, 
but that's the way I see it.

Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kcooper666" 
<yahoogroups@n...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> 
> wrote:
> > Keith;
> > 
> > I think Roy needs to update his policy; that statement dates 
back to 
> > the earliest releases, and doesn't take into account a lot of 
work 
> > done since then, such as the installer, the several dozen curves 
> > that Roy and others have added that make QTR useable 'out of the 
> > box', on-goin work to support new printers, and Steve Billiard's 
GUI 
> > which now comes integrated, and without which most of us 
wouldn't be 
> > using QTR at all.
> > It may be a fact that under the hood there is some publicly-
licensed 
> > code being used, (Microsoft uses some too, when was the last 
time 
> > you heard them say any part of their programs are free?) but how 
do 
> > you actually use QTR without using some or all of the above? Try 
> > downloading Gimp-Print and making it do what QTR does-it ain't 
gonna 
> > happen, so let's be fair: at $50.00 it's the cheapest RIP on the 
> > market, and worth much more. 
> > In fairness to Roy, Steve, and all; the other fine folks who 
have 
> > contributed, please consider changing your article.
> >  
> > Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> Sorry but no...
> if the terms on the web site say what is what, then it is not for 
me to interpret or second 
> guess them. If you wish to donate $50 (or more) for the printing 
part, then that is purely 
> for you to decide.
> 
> As to the QTR GUI - it's a windows thing and I've not got a PC so 
I've never used it. I 
> believe it is included in the PC download. If you go to the site 
referenced you will find this 
> statement:
> "QTRgui is a front end to Roy Harrington's Quad Tone RIP for 
Windows. It is also 
> FreeWare."
> 
> If Roy changes the terms on the site then I would happily change 
the wording. The terms 
> happen to be quite clearly stated on his site to anyone who 
downloads the software.
> 
> I am not saying it isn't worth the money and isn't a great piece 
of software, but that's really 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> not the point.
> 
> Keith

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-08-01 by kcooper666

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> 
wrote:
> OK, Keith, you don't use the GUI.... point is, how do you separate 
> out the 'printing part'? Either you use the provided curves, which 
> where after all generated using the 'curve creation' part, or you 
> use the curve creation yourself to make your own custom curves. 
> Either way you are making use of Roy's hard work and ingenuity, and 
> taking advantage of his good will (and poor business accumen-sorry 
> Roy)to peddle someone else's product. Sorry if that sounds harsh, 
> but that's the way I see it.
> 
> Steven Karafyllakis
Well that's your view, and needless to say I do not agree with it :-)

I'll go along with what Roy says on his site and respect that. It's up to him to decide what he 
wants to do with it...

Keith

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-08-01 by bwinkjet

Hello,

Why are several of you "shooting the messanger?"  Keith is merely 
quoting Roy's website.  When and if he updates it Keith should and 
probably will update his publication.  I just don't see jumping on 
Keith for his actions.  He has explained, and I for one understand.  
It has nothing to do with the quality or worth of Roy's efforts.

Paul


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kcooper666" 
<yahoogroups@n...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> 
> wrote:
> > OK, Keith, you don't use the GUI.... point is, how do you 
separate 
> > out the 'printing part'? Either you use the provided curves, 
which 
> > where after all generated using the 'curve creation' part, or you 
> > use the curve creation yourself to make your own custom curves. 
> > Either way you are making use of Roy's hard work and ingenuity, 
and 
> > taking advantage of his good will (and poor business accumen-
sorry 
> > Roy)to peddle someone else's product. Sorry if that sounds harsh, 
> > but that's the way I see it.
> > 
> > Steven Karafyllakis
> Well that's your view, and needless to say I do not agree with it :-
)
> 
> I'll go along with what Roy says on his site and respect that. It's 
up to him to decide what he 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> wants to do with it...
> 
> Keith

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-08-01 by dfaprinting

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> Either way you are making use of Roy's hard work and ingenuity, and 
> taking advantage of his good will (and poor business accumen-sorry 
> Roy)to peddle someone else's product.

It's increasingly more common to offer some form of software for free 
while you work out a bunch of the bugs. Then when it is great, you 
offer it for a substantial chunk of money. Others simply make enough 
to keep going from the people that do not take advantage of the 
software author's generosity and actually send some money to help 
out. In Roy's case, if it ever amounted to enough to be able to buy 
the newest printer, it might help to make the newest changes, and 
make them better and quicker. It also might be that Roy doen't want 
to have to keep up with the software pirates, and/or develop a bunch 
of security features. You may spend more time trying to (temporarily) 
defeat the pirates than you spend writing code, or making prints.

I do seem to remember that Roy wrote this because he was unhappy with 
the performance in the Epson driver, and didn't want to spend the 
rather large amount for a RIP like Studioprint or Imageprint just to 
get the kind of prints he was looking for. Hopefully Roy will stop by 
and correct me if I'm wrong on that last part.

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-08-01 by John Vitollo

> Why are several of you "shooting the messanger?"  Keith is merely 
> quoting Roy's website.  When and if he updates it Keith should and 
> probably will update his publication.  I just don't see jumping on 
> Keith for his actions.  He has explained, and I for one understand.  
> It has nothing to do with the quality or worth of Roy's efforts.
> Paul

I agree, give the guy break. 

The way I read the latest Shareware agreement, just like Keith, is the driver is free but if the 
profile makng part is used and meet your needs than pay the $50.00.

Or it could be that Roy's "QuadToneRIP Shareware License" is written in the head-scratching-
perplexing genre as Roy's first QTR 1 profiling instructions. I'm still recovering after a few 
years of read it...I have to blame my hair loss on someone. ;-{

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-08-01 by Tony Bonanno

Hi Keith and others,

As already stated, this is not about "shooting the messenger", but
rather there appears to be some legitimate confusion regarding the
shareware fee.

I guess it is up to Roy to clarify and resolve the fee question.

However, on the PC page, I don't see anything confusing at all.  Roy
clearly states that the "PRODUCT" has "TWO PARTS" : the gimp engine
and the QTR profiles, etc.  He then states that if you wish to
continue using the "PRODUCT", then there is a $50 fee.  There is no
"one part" PRODUCT option.  To read into the text that if you don't
use the profiles you don't have to pay the fee is a real stretch in my
opinon.

You might want to consider emailing Roy.  There have been a number of
articles on QTR and every one I've read is pretty clear that the
shareware fee is $50.

I found your article Keith to be quite informative and interesting
about the MonoChrome inks and the use of QTR. Thanks for the link.


Tony

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-08-01 by Phil Rose

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Bonanno"
<tbonanno-ranger2004@m...> wrote:
> Hi Keith and others,
> 
> As already stated, this is not about "shooting the messenger", but
> rather there appears to be some legitimate confusion regarding the
> shareware fee.
> 
> I guess it is up to Roy to clarify and resolve the fee question.
> 
> However, on the PC page, I don't see anything confusing at all.  Roy
> clearly states that the "PRODUCT" has "TWO PARTS" : the gimp engine
> and the QTR profiles, etc.  He then states that if you wish to
> continue using the "PRODUCT", then there is a $50 fee.  There is no
> "one part" PRODUCT option.  To read into the text that if you don't
> use the profiles you don't have to pay the fee is a real stretch in my
> opinon.
> 
> You might want to consider emailing Roy.  There have been a number of
> articles on QTR and every one I've read is pretty clear that the
> shareware fee is $50.
> 
> I found your article Keith to be quite informative and interesting
> about the MonoChrome inks and the use of QTR. Thanks for the link.
> 
> 
> Tony

I agree with every aspect of Tony's post.  In Keith's excellent
review, the interpretation he gives to Roy's shareware fee structure
is rather a "stretch" (one worthy of a high-priced tax lawyer). IMO,
he's  reading into Roy's wording a meaning that isn't intended and
can't be supported by the one-piece structure of the software
download. I don't believe Keith did this carelessly or maliciously 
but in any event his interpretation of the shareware payment happens
to be at odds with the almost the entire community of QTR users. 

Yes, it would be good if Roy changed the wording to make his intent
utterly, absolutely and irrevocably unmistakable. But in the meantime
Keith ought to just 'fess up to the fact that he's likely
misinterpreted Roy's intent, and change his article appropriately
without waiting for action on Roy's part. For that matter, I'd expect
that Keith, by now, would be making some effort to contact Roy
_directly_ for clarification.

Phil

Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-08-01 by kcooper666

> misinterpreted Roy's intent, and change his article appropriately
> without waiting for action on Roy's part. For that matter, I'd expect
> that Keith, by now, would be making some effort to contact Roy
> _directly_ for clarification.
> 
> Phil
Hi

I'm afraid I stick by how I describe the QTR structure. It is clear for anyone to read when 
they download and/or install the s/w ... it is not for me to interpret intent. And let me say 
_again_ it is well worth $50!

However for all those people intent on seeing me as trying to bilk some poor developer 
out of his well earned dues, I'd say that I sent a mail to Roy when I first published the 
review inviting comment on the QTR aspect of the review. I am always happy to correct 
mistakes but only when I hear from the horses mouth so to speak.

So to all of you having a slight dig at my integrity I stick my tongue out at you! :-) :-)
To those thanking me for the article or mailing me to agree with how I covered QTR 
thanks!

High price lawyer indeed -- I'll choose to take that as a complement since we don't have 
such a plague of them here in the UK :-) ... I'm a photographer now and the business suits 
have sat in my wardrobe for several years.

bye for now

Keith :-)

Re: [Digital BW] Re: PermaJet MonoChromePro inks review

2005-08-03 by Scott McLoughlin

Yes, I'm still in futzing mode with QTR unfortunately, but I've paid up 
in the
last few weeks, and feel better for doing so.

Scott

Tom Baker wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Keith  -
>
> You might be right.  But, I don't think that your's is a very 
> honorable approach.
>
> Tom Baker
>
>

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