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More on Epson's use of GLOP

More on Epson's use of GLOP

2005-03-07 by Bob Frost

When some of us were recently discussing Epson's use of GLOP (Gloss 
Optimiser) in the R800, Koloshor suggested that the only way to resolve the 
matter was to look at a print file and see which inks were used where.

With Roy Harrington's help, I've done that as follows.

I initially started looking at grayscales, but found it decidedly difficult 
to tell when the printer was switching from printing one patch to the next, 
because of the nature of Epson's microweave. So I made a series of 25 simple 
images, each containing a 1" square of a gray value (in increments of 10 
from 255 - 5 (and 0)). These images were all in rgb and were printed with 
Printer Color Management set in PS and ICM set in the driver, with GLOP on 
Auto, with PhotoRPM as the resolution, and Premium Glossy as the paper 
setting.

The 25 images were printed to files from Photoshop, decoded, and then output 
as txt files.

Results

Only Photoblack was used at 0/0/0 and 5/5/5, but at 15/15/15 magenta, blue, 
cyan, and yellow were used as well.

The amount of photoblack decreased steadily up to 105/105/105, and was 
absent from 115/115/115 upwards, while the amounts of magenta, blue, cyan 
and yellow increased steadily from 15/15/15 to 105/105/105. Red was not used 
anywhere.

Glop was not used until 105/105/105, where it's use overlapped with the 
disappearance of photoblack, and its use increased from then on to 
255/255/255, while the amounts of magenta, blue, cyan, and yellow decreased 
steadily.

At 255/255/255 only GLOP was used.

Conclusions

So we can see that in the darker half of the grayscale, the glossiness of 
these inks is entirely attributable to the inks themselves, NO GLOP is used. 
While in the lighter half of the grayscale, as the glossiness of the inks 
decreases, due to reduction of ink load, the use of GLOP increases directly 
to compensate for this, until at 255/255/255 the patch is pure shiny GLOP.

A knowledgeable Epson person at the Focus on Imaging Exhibition last week 
told me that the HiGloss inks were more glossy because they had altered the 
coating on the pigment particles, and put in the pure GLOP to compensate for 
lack of ink in the lighter patches.

Bob Frost.

RE: [Digital BW] More on Epson's use of GLOP

2005-03-07 by Seth

I KNOW it's expensive; and, I know it's time consuming.  Any chance you'd
run that same battery of tests on Epson double weight matte or similar
paper?

Seth

==-----Original Message-----
==From: Bob Frost [mailto:bob@...] 
==
==When some of us were recently discussing Epson's use of GLOP (Gloss
==Optimiser) in the R800, Koloshor suggested that the only way 
==to resolve the matter was to look at a print file and see 
==which inks were used where.
==
==With Roy Harrington's help, I've done that as follows.
==
--snip---

Re: [Digital BW] More on Epson's use of GLOP

2005-03-07 by Steve Kale

Glop is not used when matte paper is selected.  It is an RC (ie glossy)
paper thing....
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Seth <seth@...>
> Organization: Serh Rossman Photography
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:43:34 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] More on Epson's use of GLOP
> 
> 
> I KNOW it's expensive; and, I know it's time consuming.  Any chance you'd
> run that same battery of tests on Epson double weight matte or similar
> paper?
> 
> Seth
> 
> ==-----Original Message-----
> ==From: Bob Frost [mailto:bob@...]
> ==
> ==When some of us were recently discussing Epson's use of GLOP (Gloss
> ==Optimiser) in the R800, Koloshor suggested that the only way
> ==to resolve the matter was to look at a print file and see
> ==which inks were used where.
> ==
> ==With Roy Harrington's help, I've done that as follows.
> ==
> --snip---
>

Re: [Digital BW] More on Epson's use of GLOP

2005-03-07 by Steve Kale

Bob

Thanks for the results.  Do you think the common colour UC inks are the same
as the R800 inks - sounds like they are all different ie all new hi-gloss?
What's interesting is that we can use the (dull) UC inks (or their replicas)
and then improve on them re bronzing and differential with a solid glop coat
- sort of like glossing up their non-gloss ink.

I have been coating my colour and B&W prints with glop and the results are
amazing - except for the slight dulling of paper white that comes with a 50%
load (I am hoping that MIS glop 2 will be better in this regard).  The
unfortunate thing is that I prefer the finish of papers like Luster and this
finish is not the same after a glop coating - it is more glossy (surprise
surprise).  I would like to see a non-shiny coating formula that simply
evened out the reflective surface and killed bronzing with a lighter load.

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:11:08 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] More on Epson's use of GLOP
> 
> 
> When some of us were recently discussing Epson's use of GLOP (Gloss
> Optimiser) in the R800, Koloshor suggested that the only way to resolve the
> matter was to look at a print file and see which inks were used where.
> 
> With Roy Harrington's help, I've done that as follows.
> 
> I initially started looking at grayscales, but found it decidedly difficult
> to tell when the printer was switching from printing one patch to the next,
> because of the nature of Epson's microweave. So I made a series of 25 simple
> images, each containing a 1" square of a gray value (in increments of 10
> from 255 - 5 (and 0)). These images were all in rgb and were printed with
> Printer Color Management set in PS and ICM set in the driver, with GLOP on
> Auto, with PhotoRPM as the resolution, and Premium Glossy as the paper
> setting.
> 
> The 25 images were printed to files from Photoshop, decoded, and then output
> as txt files.
> 
> Results
> 
> Only Photoblack was used at 0/0/0 and 5/5/5, but at 15/15/15 magenta, blue,
> cyan, and yellow were used as well.
> 
> The amount of photoblack decreased steadily up to 105/105/105, and was
> absent from 115/115/115 upwards, while the amounts of magenta, blue, cyan
> and yellow increased steadily from 15/15/15 to 105/105/105. Red was not used
> anywhere.
> 
> Glop was not used until 105/105/105, where it's use overlapped with the
> disappearance of photoblack, and its use increased from then on to
> 255/255/255, while the amounts of magenta, blue, cyan, and yellow decreased
> steadily.
> 
> At 255/255/255 only GLOP was used.
> 
> Conclusions
> 
> So we can see that in the darker half of the grayscale, the glossiness of
> these inks is entirely attributable to the inks themselves, NO GLOP is used.
> While in the lighter half of the grayscale, as the glossiness of the inks
> decreases, due to reduction of ink load, the use of GLOP increases directly
> to compensate for this, until at 255/255/255 the patch is pure shiny GLOP.
> 
> A knowledgeable Epson person at the Focus on Imaging Exhibition last week
> told me that the HiGloss inks were more glossy because they had altered the
> coating on the pigment particles, and put in the pure GLOP to compensate for
> lack of ink in the lighter patches.
> 
> Bob Frost.

Re: [Digital BW] More on Epson's use of GLOP

2005-03-07 by Ernst Dinkla

Bob Frost wrote:

>Results
>
>Only Photoblack was used at 0/0/0 and 5/5/5, but at 15/15/15 magenta, blue, 
>cyan, and yellow were used as well.
>
>The amount of photoblack decreased steadily up to 105/105/105, and was 
>absent from 115/115/115 upwards, while the amounts of magenta, blue, cyan 
>and yellow increased steadily from 15/15/15 to 105/105/105. Red was not used 
>anywhere.
>
>Glop was not used until 105/105/105, where it's use overlapped with the 
>disappearance of photoblack, and its use increased from then on to 
>255/255/255, while the amounts of magenta, blue, cyan, and yellow decreased 
>steadily.
>
>At 255/255/255 only GLOP was used.
>  
>
Interesting and nice work Bob.  I'm surprised that the Photo Black 
Generation starts at 105-115 so approx at 59-55% CMY, even on the old 
wide formats (9000) with fixed bigger droplets it was at 50%, one would 
expect the black generation to start earlier with a 1.5 picoliter 
droplet size. The 15/15/15 point  for having all inks working isn't 
unusual..
The continuous use of Blue throughout in the grey patches is a surprise 
too. It would have been understandable in compensation for the warmer 
black till say 115 but not in the lighter areas. There are several 
methods to use Red and Blue instead of MY and CM mixes in N-color 
inksets but the more neutral the image is the less the extra hues 
normally appear. Usually they are used where the normal color mixes 
deliver less gamut. Maybe Epson profiled the normal CMYK ink set to the 
warm side over the full range and neutralised the total with Blue ink 
added. N-color profiling isn't easy and asks for dedicated profilers if 
the printer profile isn't an RGB one. If it is an RGB printer profile 
like in this case then the distribution of the inks has to be done 
somewhere else = the paper setting.

Ernst

Re: More on Epson's use of GLOP

2005-03-07 by brucenorikane

Thanks for the great work Bob!

This not only proves your analysis of GLOP use, but provides insight
into a lot more about the way the Epson driver mixes colors.  

This method sounds very interesting.  Could you elaborate on how you
"decoded" the print files?

 "Bob Frost" <bob@f...> wrote:
...
> The 25 images were printed to files from Photoshop, decoded, and
then output 
> as txt files.
...

RE: [Digital BW] More on Epson's use of GLOP

2005-03-07 by Seth

Yep, I think Paul told me that.

It's the "glossy coated" pigments that still have me worried.

I'm kind of in a quandry on how to play this.  Go for the proven 2200 or
jump to the 1800 with the much smaller squirter and hope for a good set of
updated inks for CIS or refillables.  Of course, it'll take a rip to make it
work.

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...] 
==
==
==Glop is not used when matte paper is selected.  It is an RC 
==(ie glossy) paper thing....
==
==
==> From: Seth <seth@...>
==> 
==> 
==> I KNOW it's expensive; and, I know it's time consuming.  Any chance 
==> you'd run that same battery of tests on Epson double weight 
==matte or 
==> similar paper?
==> 
==> Seth
==> 
==> ==-----Original Message-----
==> ==From: Bob Frost [mailto:bob@...] == ==When some of us were 
==> recently discussing Epson's use of GLOP (Gloss
==> ==Optimiser) in the R800, Koloshor suggested that the only way ==to 
==> resolve the matter was to look at a print file and see ==which inks 
==> were used where.
==> ==
==> ==With Roy Harrington's help, I've done that as follows.
==> ==
==> --snip---
==> 
==
==
==
==

Re: [Digital BW] More on Epson's use of GLOP

2005-03-07 by Steve Kale

Well you could always use a dedicated ink set in refillable R800 cartridges
- controlled either with a RIP or, in the same way Paul does, via curves and
the Epson driver.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Seth <seth@...>
> Organization: Serh Rossman Photography
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:59:06 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] More on Epson's use of GLOP
> 
> 
> Yep, I think Paul told me that.
> 
> It's the "glossy coated" pigments that still have me worried.
> 
> I'm kind of in a quandry on how to play this.  Go for the proven 2200 or
> jump to the 1800 with the much smaller squirter and hope for a good set of
> updated inks for CIS or refillables.  Of course, it'll take a rip to make it
> work.
> 
> Seth 
>

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