Digital BW, The Print

Hello All,

Last June I began experimenting with UT7 inks in a 2200.  Using the
slider controls I printed three of Paul's enhanced step wedges on
Photo Rag paper as follows:

#1 - with all controls at 0 (which I think is just the carbon inks K
and Lt-K) giving a moderate warm color
#2 - with cool toner settings for a neutral color
#3 - with warm toner settings for a sepia color

I taped a strip of matt board down the length of each ramp and
put them on my windowsill along with other things being tested (on
June 19th).   I've been real busy over the past months and have only
given them quick looks now and then.

But tonight, after 7 months, I took a careful look and was surprised
to find some fading, as follows:

#1 - No toners   - No sign of fading
#2 - Cool toners - Slight fading, visible from 20% - 70%
#3 - Warm toners - Extreme fading, visible from 5% - 100%

Some questions come to mind:

a) Paul (I hope you are reading this), you said recently something
about the magenta in these ink sets being upgraded.  Assuming these
inks purchased last June had the older magenta, do you think the newer
version will eliminate this fading?   What about the cool toner ink in
print #2?

b) I recently (November 30th) purchased a UT7 set in 4 oz. bottles
with the new ezfill carts.  Will that have the newer magenta, and
would you recommend I make a new set of prints for a new test?

c) What does this test represent?  The prints are on a south
windowsill which is covered by an awning.  They get a small amount of
early morning and late afternoon direct sunlight as it peeks under the
ends of the awning, and a full day of bright reflected daylight.  Yes,
it's a torture test, but the fact remains that they did fade and right
beside them is an Eboni BO print that's been there 14 months and an
Epson UC (grayscale mode) print for 16 months, both with no signs of
fading.  So the toner inks do fade in response to light.  Whether this
amount of light can be translated to 40 years in room light behind
glass, or something like that, I don't know.  Everyone will have to
draw their own conclusions.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

> ... UT7 inks ... slider controls ... on Photo Rag paper ...

>#1 - with all controls at 0 (which I think is just the carbon inks K
>and Lt-K) giving a moderate warm color

The sliders use all the inks.  So, the cold and warm toners are in there.

>#2 - with cool toner settings for a neutral color
>#3 - with warm toner settings for a sepia color

>...put them on my windowsill ... on June 19th

I assume these are inside.

> after 7 months, ... fading, as follows:

>#1 - No toners   - No sign of fading

Again, the toners actually are in there.  This is not pure carbon.

>#2 - Cool toners - Slight fading, visible from 20% - 70%

This would have more of the old magenta in it.

>#3 - Warm toners - Extreme fading, visible from 5% - 100%

Magenta and yellow are the weaklings.  This is the weakest of the inks.

>Some questions come to mind:

>a) Paul, you said recently something
>about the magenta in these ink sets being upgraded.  Assuming these
>inks purchased last June had the older magenta, do you think the newer
>version will eliminate this fading?   

These would have been the old inks, with the magenta that was a problem.
The new toners have no magenta in them at all.  There is a new blue and a
bit of cyan, which is a tough pigment.  Magenta is a historic weakling
according to one of the most active water color testers, and that is
consistent with what I've seen also.

Of course, everything will eventually fade, especially in bright sunlight,
which has lots of UV.

I do not test on PhotoRag, so I don't know how well it does compared to
UltraSmooth, which has been the best matte performer.

>b) I recently (November 30th) purchased a UT7 set in 4 oz. bottles
>with the new ezfill carts.  Will that have the newer magenta, and
>would you recommend I make a new set of prints for a new test?

MIS has told me they've replaced all the old UT7, but I couldn't be sure if
what you purchased is the new or old.

>c) What does this test represent?  The prints are on a south
>windowsill which is covered by an awning.  They get a small amount of
>early morning and late afternoon direct sunlight as it peeks under the
>ends of the awning, and a full day of bright reflected daylight.  Yes,
>it's a torture test, but the fact remains that they did fade and right
>beside them is an Eboni BO print that's been there 14 months and an
>Epson UC (grayscale mode) print for 16 months, both with no signs of
>fading.  So the toner inks do fade in response to light.  Whether this
>amount of light can be translated to 40 years in room light behind
>glass, or something like that, I don't know.  Everyone will have to
>draw their own conclusions.

That the Eboni did well does not surprise me.  The pure carbon -- Eboni and
the carbon midtones -- should do better than inks with color pigments,
especially yellow and the old magenta.  However, like Eboni, the new neutral
UT inks also show an actual increase in density after 600 hours in my
tester.  These -- the pure carbon pigs and the new UT neutrals -- are the
only inks that do this.  The UC inks show fading.

However, the fact that the #1 test strip, with all the inks in it, did not
fade, whereas the toned ones faded much more, seems a bit odd.

That the sepia faded the fastest is not surprising.  Even with the new inks,
if I were not using sepia, I'd replace that with the light carbon ink -- LC
in UT7.  One wants the least amount of color in a B&W inkset.  The yellow is
still in that sepia toner, even thought he magenta has been pulled out,
replace with a red pigment that appears to be better.

That the UC made with color pigs did well is simply inconsistent with my
tests.  A neutral UT7, even with the old magenta, outperformed the UC
pigments in my fade tests.

So, I can't say what the results indicate.  At one point Livick had a UT1
test strip (old magenta) with some coating that he rated at about 500 years
-- the longest I'd ever seen. 

It's a mystery.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hello Paul,

>>...put them on my windowsill ... on June 19th
>I assume these are inside.

Yes.


>That the UC made with color pigs did well is simply inconsistent
with 
>my tests.  

I don't know what to say about that.   I made it with the UC PK on EEM
when I first got the 2200.  It's been on the windowsill with a matt
board strip taped to it ever since and I still can't see any evidence
of fading when I look under the strip.


 
>However, the fact that the #1 test strip, with all the inks in it, 
>did not fade, whereas the toned ones faded much more, seems a bit 
>odd.
> 
>That the sepia faded the fastest is not surprising.  Even with the 
>new inks, if I were not using sepia, I'd replace that with the light 
>carbon ink -- LC in UT7.  One wants the least amount of color in a 
>B&W inkset.  

>The yellow is still in that sepia toner, even though the magenta has 
>been pulled out, replace with a red pigment that appears to be 
>better.

>It's a mystery.

Yes and all a bit confusing.  Three questions:

1) I put a q-tip dab of each ink on a piece of EEM.  Can you tell from
these descriptions whether I have the new or old set?

K - black, obviously is Eboni
LK - dark gray, a tad warmer than K
C - darker than LK but a tad warmer
LC - medium density grayish brown (the warmest except for Y)
M - darker than LK and C, lighter than K, cooler than C
LM - cool medium gray
Y - very warm brown

If I can determine that I have the new inks I'll begin a new test.  If
I have the old ones I'll ask MIS if they'll swap them for new.


2) Can you tell me what inks are now in each of the 7 positions and
what their makeup is ?

3) Is there any information which explains exactly how the three
sliders affect the seven inks?   

Thanks very much.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

>>That the UC made with color pigs did well is simply 
>>inconsistent with my tests.  

>...  I made it with the UC PK on EEM when I first got the 2200.

You said the UT7 strips were on Photo Rag.  That might be the difference.  I
don't use or test on Photo Rag due to it's sensitive surface, including
flaking.  EEM does consistently well in my tests, close to what the
UltraSmooth did.  So, maybe the paper difference is one factor that has
caused the divergent results.

...
>Three questions:

>1) I put a q-tip dab of each ink on a piece of EEM.  Can you tell from
>these descriptions whether I have the new or old set?

I doubt it.

...
>LK - dark gray, a tad warmer than K

Hmm, why aren't they shipping the neutral LK?

>If I can determine that I have the new inks I'll begin a new test.  If
>I have the old ones I'll ask MIS if they'll swap them for new.

You might just tell Bob Zeiss what you're doing and that you need to be sure
these are the new inks.  I'll e-mail him also.

>2) Can you tell me what inks are now in each of the 7 positions and
>what their makeup is ?

The tones are the same as the original UT7 -- or so close you'll probably
not see the difference.  If the inks were very accurately mixed, the new
"sliders at 0" test strip would be slightly more neutral than the original
UT7.

The inks are as you described them.  The cyan positions are "pure" carbon.
The magenta position inks are carbon with "blue" pigments added to cool them
down.  The "blue" color pigments are a new R800 clone blue and the 7600 MIS
cyan.

The sepia has a new red (R800 red clone) and the 7600 MIS yellow in it -- at
about 16% to 84% LC.  But, that LC is dilute carbon.  So, on a load-adjusted
basis, the sepia toner is, perhaps, 55% carbon and 45% color pigments, and
the yellow is not known for its toughness.

>3) Is there any information which explains exactly how the three
>sliders affect the seven inks? 

Not that I am aware of.
  
I'd recommend you use the same paper for all the inks in a comparison test.
Paper does make a difference.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

>You might just tell Bob Zeiss what you're doing and that you need 
>to be sure these are the new inks.  I'll e-mail him also.

Ok, thanks.  I'll call on Monday.  I have been experimenting and
aiming toward including more info about UT7 in the next revision of my
articles, but I'll have to delay that until I get this straightened
out.  Once I'm sure I have the new inks I'll begin another fade test.
sigh.

BTW, what a joy it is to have the new EZ fill 2200 carts!


 
>>2) Can you tell me what inks are now in each of the 7 positions and
>>what their makeup is ?
> 
>The tones are the same as the original UT7 -- or so close you'll
>probably not see the difference....

Ok.  I should have also said that I have your original paper on
UT7 but figured it is obsolete since the inks have changed.   Have you
revised anything on the UT7 info sheet on your web site?


If the LK ink was put into all the non K positions, with Eboni in K,
do you think a good smooth ramp could be obtained with just those two
inks?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm