Digital BW, The Print

Hi

I had a chance to try an HP printer with the gray cart. for B&W 
photos, and I'm impressed with the quality of the images. My question 
is: I am starting to work with B&W printing and am trying to decide 
if I should buy an HP printer or go for a dedicated system (e.g., an 
Epson with a dedicated B&W ink set). I'm not concerned with the size 
of the paper the printer can handle but more in the quality of the 
final output. Would a system built around the Ultratone inks, for 
instance, provide you with a higher quality output? From what I've 
read, it seems there is more flexibility with some of the dedicated 
systems while HP seems more like an 'out of the box solution' that 
can provide a good quality print. I guess one of my goals is to 
experiment with B&W printing, much like I used to with darkroom work 
when I was younger (which seems a looong time ago right now)! 

THANKS in advance.

Michael

I don't have the answers, but your post makes me ask...
Do you want the printer for just BW?  Or do you want to do general printing 
with it as well?

And to the group:
Is either the HP or a dedicated BW Epson going to be more susceptible to 
printhead problems?
How about if it is not used very often?
In other words, which is likely to be more trouble-free?

-Don M

mbito4000 wrote:

>Hi
>
>I had a chance to try an HP printer with the gray cart. for B&W
>photos, and I'm impressed with the quality of the images. My question
>is: I am starting to work with B&W printing and am trying to decide
>if I should buy an HP printer or go for a dedicated system (e.g., an
>Epson with a dedicated B&W ink set). I'm not concerned with the size
>of the paper the printer can handle but more in the quality of the
>final output. Would a system built around the Ultratone inks, for
>instance, provide you with a higher quality output? From what I've
>read, it seems there is more flexibility with some of the dedicated
>systems while HP seems more like an 'out of the box solution' that
>can provide a good quality print. I guess one of my goals is to
>experiment with B&W printing, much like I used to with darkroom work
>when I was younger (which seems a looong time ago right now)!
>
>THANKS in advance.
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
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>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
>and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO 
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
>THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
>BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE 
>USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi
 
Thanks for writing--if I get an Epson, it will be dedicated to B&W work; I would use the HP for both, but more for the B&W work.

Don M <don@mcluckie.net> wrote:
I don't have the answers, but your post makes me ask...
Do you want the printer for just BW?  Or do you want to do general printing 
with it as well?

And to the group:
Is either the HP or a dedicated BW Epson going to be more susceptible to 
printhead problems?
How about if it is not used very often?
In other words, which is likely to be more trouble-free?

-Don M

mbito4000 wrote:
>Hi
>
>I had a chance to try an HP printer with the gray cart. for B&W
>photos, and I'm impressed with the quality of the images. My question
>is: I am starting to work with B&W printing and am trying to decide
>if I should buy an HP printer or go for a dedicated system (e.g., an
>Epson with a dedicated B&W ink set). I'm not concerned with the size
>of the paper the printer can handle but more in the quality of the
>final output. Would a system built around the Ultratone inks, for
>instance, provide you with a higher quality output? From what I've
>read, it seems there is more flexibility with some of the dedicated
>systems while HP seems more like an 'out of the box solution' that
>can provide a good quality print. I guess one of my goals is to
>experiment with B&W printing, much like I used to with darkroom work
>when I was younger (which seems a looong time ago right now)!
>
>THANKS in advance.
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
>and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO 
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
>THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
>BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE 
>USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Epson will be much more trouble than the HP.  In fact, if you are 
not using the Epson every day you will have trouble... not impossible 
to deal with, but much more than the HP.  The HP is truly an 
excellent printer for b&w, different than the pigment prints from an 
Epson yes, but still excellent.  I've purged out my 1160 with some 
dye-based color ink so I can let it sit idle until I have to make 
some warm tone or larger prints.  The HP is much more expensive to 
run than a CFS or Epson refills.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Don M <don@m...> 
wrote:
> I don't have the answers, but your post makes me ask...
> Do you want the printer for just BW?  Or do you want to do general 
printing 
> with it as well?
> 
> And to the group:
> Is either the HP or a dedicated BW Epson going to be more 
susceptible to 
> printhead problems?
> How about if it is not used very often?
> In other words, which is likely to be more trouble-free?
> 
> -Don M
> 
> mbito4000 wrote:
> >Hi
> >
> >I had a chance to try an HP printer with the gray cart. for B&W
> >photos, and I'm impressed with the quality of the images. My 
question
> >is: I am starting to work with B&W printing and am trying to decide
> >if I should buy an HP printer or go for a dedicated system (e.g., 
an
> >Epson with a dedicated B&W ink set). I'm not concerned with the 
size
> >of the paper the printer can handle but more in the quality of the
> >final output. Would a system built around the Ultratone inks, for
> >instance, provide you with a higher quality output? From what I've
> >read, it seems there is more flexibility with some of the dedicated
> >systems while HP seems more like an 'out of the box solution' that
> >can provide a good quality print. I guess one of my goals is to
> >experiment with B&W printing, much like I used to with darkroom 
work
> >when I was younger (which seems a looong time ago right now)!
> >
> >THANKS in advance.
> >
> >Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as 
> >they are often being updated.
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to 
> >unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same 
> >page.
> >
> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep 
> >them short.
> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. 
> >Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
> >membership without notice.
> >- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W 
> >printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from 
> >the membership.
> >- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and 
> >guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner 
> >and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
Files section:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> >BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT 
> >YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND 
> >"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO 
> >YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR 
> >EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS 
OF 
> >PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
> >THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
HAVE 
> >BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: 
(i) THE 
> >USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
(ii) 
> >UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR 
DATA; (iii) 
> >STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT 
> >YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE 

> >PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >

Thank you.  Good to know.

-Don M

Mark Hahn wrote:

>The Epson will be much more trouble than the HP.  In fact, if you are
>not using the Epson every day you will have trouble... not impossible
>to deal with, but much more than the HP.  The HP is truly an
>excellent printer for b&w, different than the pigment prints from an
>Epson yes, but still excellent.  I've purged out my 1160 with some
>dye-based color ink so I can let it sit idle until I have to make
>some warm tone or larger prints.  The HP is much more expensive to
>run than a CFS or Epson refills.
>
>mark
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Don M <don@m...>
>wrote:
>
> >
> > And to the group:
> > Is either the HP or a dedicated BW Epson going to be more
>susceptible to
> > printhead problems?
> > How about if it is not used very often?
> > In other words, which is likely to be more trouble-free?
> >
> > -Don M

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" 
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> The Epson will be much more trouble than the HP.  In fact, if you 
are 
> not using the Epson every day you will have trouble... 

This is simply untrue. I have an almost four year old printer, (Epson 
1160) used three different carbon pigment inksets and a CIS, been at 
times weeks without using the printer. I usually use it about one or 
two days a week, sometimes not. This printer is dependable, fast and 
makes great prints.

If you feel you need to print to maintain your printer, just press 
paper feed button while turning the printer on, release and the 
printer will print a nozzle cleck. Simple. 

Cheers,
Andre

a simple search for "clog from hell" should turn up many many users 
that have had problems.  Talk to Bob at MIS and he'll tell you 
straight up that you should *expect* more problems from the pigmented 
inksets that he sells than from dye based systems... why would he lie 
about it?  I used an 1160 w/CIS for 3 years and never complained 
about my clogs since I was able to deal with them and was happy with 
the prints, but I am also happy with the HP 7660 and have so far not 
had a single problem which is worth all the extra money it costs to 
run.

Also, I recently brought some 8x12 prints from the 7660 to my gallery 
and the first response was "glad you've gone back to 'real' 
photography," the prints are *that* good.  Granted, for many images I 
prefer a warm tone matte print... but that's what the Epson is for.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andre" 
<am1000@v...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" 
> <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > The Epson will be much more trouble than the HP.  In fact, if you 
> are 
> > not using the Epson every day you will have trouble... 
> 
> This is simply untrue. I have an almost four year old printer, 
(Epson 
> 1160) used three different carbon pigment inksets and a CIS, been 
at 
> times weeks without using the printer. I usually use it about one 
or 
> two days a week, sometimes not. This printer is dependable, fast 
and 

> makes great prints.
> 
> If you feel you need to print to maintain your printer, just press 
> paper feed button while turning the printer on, release and the 
> printer will print a nozzle cleck. Simple. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Andre

I'm one of those who have had clog problems with my 1160.
I got tired of screwing around with clogs, transfer curves, and
seemingly endless iterations of test prints and have pretty much
given up BW (sadly). I'm intrigued by the HP7660 to dedicate
to BW.

Mark,
Can you say more on the 'extra money it costs to run' (Re; the 7660)?

Thanks,
JimD

At 09:15 PM 4/13/2004, Mark Hahn wrote:

>a simple search for "clog from hell" should turn up many many users
>that have had problems.  Talk to Bob at MIS and he'll tell you
>straight up that you should *expect* more problems from the pigmented
>inksets that he sells than from dye based systems... why would he lie
>about it?  I used an 1160 w/CIS for 3 years and never complained
>about my clogs since I was able to deal with them and was happy with
>the prints, but I am also happy with the HP 7660 and have so far not
>had a single problem which is worth all the extra money it costs to
>run.
>
>Also, I recently brought some 8x12 prints from the 7660 to my gallery
>and the first response was "glad you've gone back to 'real'
>photography," the prints are *that* good.  Granted, for many images I
>prefer a warm tone matte print... but that's what the Epson is for.
>
>mark
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andre"
><am1000@v...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn"
> > <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > > The Epson will be much more trouble than the HP.  In fact, if you
> > are
> > > not using the Epson every day you will have trouble...
> >
> > This is simply untrue. I have an almost four year old printer,
>(Epson
> > 1160) used three different carbon pigment inksets and a CIS, been
>at
> > times weeks without using the printer. I usually use it about one
>or
> > two days a week, sometimes not. This printer is dependable, fast
>and
> > makes great prints.
> >
> > If you feel you need to print to maintain your printer, just press
> > paper feed button while turning the printer on, release and the
> > printer will print a nozzle cleck. Simple.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andre
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
>and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO 
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
>THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
>BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE 
>USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) 
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

I have BOTH an HP 7660 and the MIS inks running in EPSONs..

The HP prints look great until you compare them head to head with MIS 
prints.

If you decide to go the HP route you will almost certainly need a 7960.  
Why? It's the ONLY HP using the #59 cartridge that allows you to disable 
the HP's internal color management. If you don't disable that driver 
color management:

1)   The HP will block up your shadows and increase contrast to make the 
prints pop... If I wanted that I'd do it in Photoshop myself.

2)   Being unable to disable driver color management means that color 
images on the 7660 end up having the gamut limited twice, plus the 
possible conversion errors, if you try  building custom profiles and 
using them.

The 7660 also suffers from creating pattern artifacts in B&W when using 
the #59 cartridge, that do not similarly affect the 7960 since the 
latter's driver was updated... http://www.photo.net/equipment/hp/hp7960/

As for the 7960 it's driver oversharpens whether or not you ask it to..
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/HP%207960/page_5.htm

Until HP updates it's driver (which I've entered a version feature 
request for with HP) for the 7660 and 7760, I can't recommend them for 
serious prints.




 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

first, I read both reviews before buying the 7660 and could not 
reproduce the published b&w differences between the 7660 and 7960.  
In my tests the dither pattern was identical.  I used the same cart 
in both printers.  2 reps at HP also told me that in b&w mode that 
the 7660 and 7960 are identical, the driver update only affected the 
color performance (and I've only made 2 color prints with my 7660 and 
was happy enough with both).  There are certain tones and patterns 
that cause the 7660 to fail (ie. the dither pattern becomes 
noticable), but it hasn't limited my serious use of the printer or my 
confidence in showing the prints that I make from it, but the Epson 
dither pattern is definitely nicer.  Shadow block up has not been 
much of a problem for me either and compared to my 1160+MIS VM I am 
happier with shadow detail from the HP.  I also find that the HP 
handles smooth gradients much more precisely.  The Epson handles 
highlights much better than the HP though mainly because that is 
where the HP dither pattern breaks down. 

Both systems have their strengths and it simplistic at best to say 
that one is better than the other for all users.

I have been making excellent prints on my HP (avoiding images that I 
know it can't handle just as I had to do with my Epson+MIS) and 
enjoying the absolute lack of clogs.

When something better comes out for b&w I'll have no regrets dropping 
my 7660 off at the Salvation Army... until then it's shooting out 
beautiful b&w 8x12s as fast as I can feed it paper:)

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. 
Image Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
> I have BOTH an HP 7660 and the MIS inks running in EPSONs..
> 
> The HP prints look great until you compare them head to head with 
MIS 
> prints.
> 
> If you decide to go the HP route you will almost certainly need a 
7960.  
> Why? It's the ONLY HP using the #59 cartridge that allows you to 
disable 
> the HP's internal color management. If you don't disable that 
driver 
> color management:
> 
> 1)   The HP will block up your shadows and increase contrast to 
make the 
> prints pop... If I wanted that I'd do it in Photoshop myself.
> 
> 2)   Being unable to disable driver color management means that 
color 
> images on the 7660 end up having the gamut limited twice, plus the 
> possible conversion errors, if you try  building custom profiles 
and 
> using them.
> 
> The 7660 also suffers from creating pattern artifacts in B&W when 
using 
> the #59 cartridge, that do not similarly affect the 7960 since the 
> latter's driver was updated... 
http://www.photo.net/equipment/hp/hp7960/
> 
> As for the 7960 it's driver oversharpens whether or not you ask it 
to..
> http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/HP%207960/page_5.htm
> 
> Until HP updates it's driver (which I've entered a version feature 
> request for with HP) for the 7660 and 7760, I can't recommend them 
for 
> serious prints.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs
> 
> "Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON 
printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
> and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks 
together 
> guys"

I'm comparing it mainly to an Epson 1160 with MIS ink in a CFS which 
is negligible in cost per print once it's running, especially if you 
use EEM paper.  The HP #59 carts are $24 at Target (cheapest I've 
found) and the HP Glossy Premium Plus paper is about a buck a sheet 
(I cut down 11x17" so I can get 8x12" prints out of the printer) so 
each print costs between $2-3 depending on ink usage.  I think the 
Epson/MIS prints cost around $.35 per print on 8.5x11" paper, but 
that is after you buy all your equipment.  You probably have to make 
hundreds of prints before you break even on the MIS/Epson equipment 
cost though.

mark

...
> Mark,
> Can you say more on the 'extra money it costs to run' (Re; the 
7660)?
> 
> Thanks,
> JimD
...

When I needed perfect prints from my 1160 I often made up to 10 test 
prints before I was satisfied.  With the last batch of prints I made 
on the 7660 each one was the first print... maybe it isn't costing me 
more per print after all :)  

It is still a compromise, but a relatively hassle-free one.

mark

...
> [1160]
> I got tired of screwing around with [...]
> seemingly endless iterations of test prints [...]
> I'm intrigued by the HP7660 to dedicate
> to BW.
...

Mark Hahn wrote:

>first, I read both reviews before buying the 7660 and could not 
>reproduce the published b&w differences between the 7660 and 7960.  
>In my tests the dither pattern was identical.  I used the same cart 
>in both printers.  2 reps at HP also told me that in b&w mode that 
>the 7660 and 7960 are identical, the driver update only affected the 
>color performance (and I've only made 2 color prints with my 7660 and 
>was happy enough with both). 
>
which, when used that way,  effectively makes it a dedicated B&W 
printer, especially since you cannot turn off the color management..

> There are certain tones and patterns 
>that cause the 7660 to fail (ie. the dither pattern becomes 
>noticable), but it hasn't limited my serious use of the printer or my 
>confidence in showing the prints that I make from it, but the Epson 
>dither pattern is definitely nicer.  Shadow block up has not been 
>much of a problem for me either and compared to my 1160+MIS VM I am 
>happier with shadow detail from the HP. 
>
I can say this.. If I send the EXACT same image to the 7660, a 1270 with 
VM or VM-S, and a 1280 with UT2, UNLESS I change the contrast setting in 
the 7660 driver, or specifically balance my monitor to replicate the 
7660 B&W output,  I get blocking of my shadows. 


> I also find that the HP 
>handles smooth gradients much more precisely.  The Epson handles 
>highlights much better than the HP though mainly because that is 
>where the HP dither pattern breaks down. 
>
>Both systems have their strengths and it simplistic at best to say 
>that one is better than the other for all users.
>  
>
I didn't say any one printer was best for all users... However, there is 
no valid reason why the HP 7660 defaults should increase the contrast 
of  a B&W  image when printing it.  What I see on a a calibrated and 
profiled monitor should be what I get on output..  That happens with the 
1270 and 1280.. on the 7660 it doesn't...

Nor is there any reason for not enabling the disabling of driver color 
management...

Or for the fact that the antique and sepia print options are available 
only if you are printing directly from memory cards/media inserted in 
the printer, but not if you print from an attached computer..

> 
>I have been making excellent prints on my HP (avoiding images that I 
>know it can't handle just as I had to do with my Epson+MIS) and 
>enjoying the absolute lack of clogs.
>  
>
I don't doubt that excellent prints are possible.. What I'm pointing out 
is that the driver is so "dummy proof" and hindering as to be 
unattractive to the prosumer market..  It refuses to "get out of the 
way" so that proper color management can be employed.

The driver added contrast is not acceptable IMHO.


 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

I haven't used a 1280 with VM inks so I can't say whether or not the 
curves you are using are as perfect as you claim, but the curves for 
my 1160+VM were very far from WYSIWYG so in comparison the 7660 seems 
great.  If all I have to do is anticipate a little bump in contrast 
it's a peice of cake.  Sure, the 2200+IP is more precise, but it's a 
freaking $1000!

I don't have anything else to add, so let's leave it off here.  The 
easiest thing for anyone to do who is interested in one of the HP 
printers is to take a memory card into BestBuy or any other 
electronics mega-store and get the sales dweeb to let you print off a 
couple images.  Then people can make up your own mind.  That's what I 
did and *I* am more than satisfied with my 7660 even given that it 
isn't absolutely perfect... but what is?

mark

...
> I can say this.. If I send the EXACT same image to the 7660, a 1270 
with 
> VM or VM-S, and a 1280 with UT2, UNLESS I change the contrast 
setting in 
> the 7660 driver, or specifically balance my monitor to replicate 
the 
> 7660 B&W output,  I get blocking of my shadows. 
...
> no valid reason why the HP 7660 defaults should increase the 
contrast 
> of  a B&W  image when printing it.  What I see on a a calibrated 
and 
> profiled monitor should be what I get on output..  That happens 
with the 
> 1270 and 1280.. on the 7660 it doesn't...
...

I hate to get involved in these things but I am an 1160 UT (previously VM)
user and I guess you can call me lucky. I never had those nether world clogs
The only problem I did have was eventually replacing a print head which was
not the fault of MIS. Just wear and tear. As far as making up the initial
CFS investment, which I didn't think was extravagant because of the pigment
cost savings, I sold some 10x15 prints. Paid for everything pretty fast. I
like filling the bottles and seeing how much pigment I have. I'm still
waiting for this machine to die but it's like Freddy Krueger. I have a 1280
which I  haven't put into heavy operation yet. Just a crazy old man having
some fun. Hallelujah!

bgs

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Hahn" <markhahn2000@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 3:06 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: HP Gray cart. vs Dedicated B&W Printer; need help


I'm comparing it mainly to an Epson 1160 with MIS ink in a CFS which
is negligible in cost per print once it's running, especially if you
use EEM paper.  The HP #59 carts are $24 at Target (cheapest I've
found) and the HP Glossy Premium Plus paper is about a buck a sheet
(I cut down 11x17" so I can get 8x12" prints out of the printer) so
each print costs between $2-3 depending on ink usage.  I think the
Epson/MIS prints cost around $.35 per print on 8.5x11" paper, but
that is after you buy all your equipment.  You probably have to make
hundreds of prints before you break even on the MIS/Epson equipment
cost though.

mark

...
> Mark,
> Can you say more on the 'extra money it costs to run' (Re; the
7660)?
>
> Thanks,
> JimD
...



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I hope the person who asked about taking a printing setup to Iraq for good 
bw and occasional color is reading this.
Sounds like the way he/she should go given the compromises specified.

-Don M

JimD wrote:

>I'm one of those who have had clog problems with my 1160.
>I got tired of screwing around with clogs, transfer curves, and
>seemingly endless iterations of test prints and have pretty much
>given up BW (sadly). I'm intrigued by the HP7660 to dedicate
>to BW.

Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote:
>I have BOTH an HP 7660 and the MIS inks running in EPSONs..
>
>The HP prints look great until you compare them head to head with MIS
>prints.
>
>If you decide to go the HP route you will almost certainly need a 7960.
>Why? It's the ONLY HP using the #59 cartridge that allows you to disable
>the HP's internal color management. If you don't disable that driver
>color management:

So does the 7960 do even a better job than the 7660 which looks great 
until....?

-Don M
"still on the fence for an entry level BW solution", and
"birthday soon, wife needs my decision"
:-)

An update on the HP 7660 testing.. Tried a new #59 cartridge today and 
loa nd behold NO blocked up shadows...

Therefore, I can now recommend using the 7660/7760/7960 for B&W 
printing, with the caveat that the design of the HP system, which 
incorporates the printhead in each cartridge means that HP needs or 
needed more stringent quality control if image quality is to be 
acceptable and consistent.   This is NOT the first report of bad #59 
cartridges..

I'll be calling HP today and asking for a new cartridge. This stuff 
isn't cheap and wasting a lot of paper and a whole cartridge until I 
tried another cartridge to find it was a cartridge issue is IMHO ridiculous.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote:

>An update on the HP 7660 testing.. Tried a new #59 cartridge today and 
>loa nd behold NO blocked up shadows...
>  
>
Ok, upon closer examination, it wasn't NO contrast boost, but it was 
much less than seen before.. The GENERAL shadow blocking I had seen is 
gone..

AND, running a custom profile opened up the shadows further, undoing 
that boost.

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

For color work I'm sure it does, but I could see no difference 
between b&w prints.

mark

...
> So does the 7960 do even a better job than the 7660 which looks 
great 

> until....?
> 
> -Don M
> "still on the fence for an entry level BW solution", and
> "birthday soon, wife needs my decision"
> :-)

Yes, I've gotten 2 bad carts, but HP sent out fresh ones immediately.

Glad you were able to get to see what the printer is capable of 
before writing it off :)

mark

PS  My bad carts produced vertical banding.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. 
Image Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
> An update on the HP 7660 testing.. Tried a new #59 cartridge today 
and 
> loa nd behold NO blocked up shadows...
> 
> Therefore, I can now recommend using the 7660/7760/7960 for B&W 
> printing, with the caveat that the design of the HP system, which 
> incorporates the printhead in each cartridge means that HP needs or 
> needed more stringent quality control if image quality is to be 
> acceptable and consistent.   This is NOT the first report of bad 
#59 
> cartridges..
> 
> I'll be calling HP today and asking for a new cartridge. This stuff 
> isn't cheap and wasting a lot of paper and a whole cartridge until 
I 
> tried another cartridge to find it was a cartridge issue is IMHO 
ridiculous.
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs
> 
> "Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON 
printer 
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
> Publications), at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
> and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks 
together 
> guys"

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" 
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> Yes, I've gotten 2 bad carts, but HP sent out fresh ones immediately.
> 
> Glad you were able to get to see what the printer is capable of 
> before writing it off :)
> 
> mark
> 
> PS  My bad carts produced vertical banding.

My 7660 produces a faint hatch pattern, noticeable in certain areas of a print. Initially I 
tried no end of cleaning cycles, no change. I only use the HP Premium Plus Matte, and have 
also used Ilford Gallerie Classic Pearl, same on both. I was thinking this was due to the 
reported driver problem, and eagerly awaited an update. I'm using OSX with the 2.3.7 
driver, this was the latest last week. Could this simply be a bad cartridge?

Steve Bell

Hello Steve,

>My 7660 produces a faint hatch pattern, noticeable in certain areas 
>of a print...Could this simply be a bad cartridge?

A while back someone sent me several HP prints and they all had this
in varying degrees.  It resembled a similar dither banding pattern
that was present on a print from an early version of the Septone
system (dither banding is faint banding caused by the printer's dither
pattern, and is not from a clogged nozzle or other such problem).

I suspect this is the nature of the HP system and you'll probably have
to live with it.  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton Jones wrote:

>Hello Steve,
>
>  
>
>>My 7660 produces a faint hatch pattern, noticeable in certain areas 
>>of a print...Could this simply be a bad cartridge?
>>    
>>
>
>I suspect this is the nature of the HP system and you'll probably have
>to live with it.  
>
>  
>

Check the posts by Joshua Pearson on this page:
http://www.photo.net/equipment/hp/hp7960/

It seems to afflict the 7660/7760 but not the 7960 which uses a 
different driver and a newer version of  PhotoRet..

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

With my first printer/cart I got *bad* hatching and vertical banding 
and ended up returning the printer.  With a new cart it went away (to 
some degree).  The dither "weave" does produce what looks like micro 
banding for certain images, especially in light skintones from grainy 
scans.  From smooth digital images it is almost not an issue.  I 
think it is some aliasing-like phenominea... maybe the frequency of 
grain freaking out the frequency of the dither... I don't know.

When I got my first printer I posted this:

http://www.geocities.com/markhahn2000/7660test.html

It shows how much of effect that different carts can have.  With a 
second printer and a third cart the dither pattern got better for 
this image, but was still obvious under close inspection.  To put it 
in perspective though, this is the only image that printed so 
obviously dithered.  Had I rated the T400CN at 200 it probably would 
have been much better as well since the grain is what causes the 
problems.

mark

...
> My 7660 produces a faint hatch pattern, noticeable in certain areas 
of a print. Initially I 
> tried no end of cleaning cycles, no change. I only use the HP 
Premium Plus Matte, and have 
> also used Ilford Gallerie Classic Pearl, same on both. I was 
thinking this was due to the 
> reported driver problem, and eagerly awaited an update. I'm using 
OSX with the 2.3.7 
> driver, this was the latest last week. Could this simply be a bad 
cartridge?
> 
> Steve Bell

Have you concluded this yourself or are you repeating what is shown 
on *one* website review????  When I tested both printers the 
dither/banding was identical on both printers and several HP reps 
have said that that part of the driver is identical, only the color 
handling is different (and the heads are of course identical).

mark

...
> Check the posts by Joshua Pearson on this page:
> http://www.photo.net/equipment/hp/hp7960/
> 
> It seems to afflict the 7660/7760 but not the 7960 which uses a 
> different driver and a newer version of  PhotoRet..
> 
>  
> Keith Krebs
...

I have a 7960 and a room full of Epson printers. I was very intrigued 
by the photoblack which I knew would allow me to make some Glossy BW 
prints.

Comparing the 7960 to the 1160 is weird...the 1160 is a 10 year old 
printer (but on really good matte paper with MIS or Piezo inks, it 
will definitely hold it's own against the 7960 in print quality) and 
it definitely requires some care and feeding to use inks in it that 
were not part of the design (i.e. pigment ink). That said, most 
people haven't had too much trouble keeping it working fine.

Let's talk about the 7960...very expensive ink...very...buy your 
cartridges by the dozen, at least. Very intrusive software...it wants 
to load everything under the sun...if you buy one, ignore all 
installation instructions and simply add a printer from in the print 
driver function of your computer...DO NOT LOAD and HP software...very 
quirky and unstable for me at least. 

7960 print quality may turn out to be ok...so far I'm finding a 
bluish cast to BW rgb prints that I don't like at all. I've also 
found that most papers require you to "catch" them one at a time and 
set them out to dry individually for at least an hour before they are 
ready to be handled at all. At the fine print setting, it prints very 
very slow. Changing the carts in and out from photo to black is 
somewhat more cumbersome than the Epson 2200 and wastes a little ink 
as well. (printing text with the photo cart isn't really an 
option...it winds up as gray text).

All of that said, I may keep the 7960 for the ocassional glossy 8x10 
and for the extra tray for holding 4x6 paper for the ocassional 
snanpshot sized pic that can still be a very good desktop text 
printer, but it just doesn't measure up for a production printer of 
quality BW photos.

Remember the 7960 is limited to letter sized prints. I don't know the 
epsons that are letter size printers, but I think there are a number 
of them now that have most of the technology of the 2200 (4000, 7600, 
9600). You might want to consider one of these printers...you will 
have the benefit of the installed base and expertise of the users of 
the above printers (not a small factor when I made my first choices 
in just about the same position you are in today ((btw, mine was a 
1270 followed by a few 1160s for BW). Espon printers allow a lot of 
flexibility in the way of third party ink, commercial RIPs (if that 
ever interests you) and this forum (not a epson forum but by far the 
largest following here).

Whatever you get, stop back here...there will surely be someone who 
can help you work through issues (you will have some issues with ANY 
printer <g>).

cheers,

Tom O'Connell



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" 
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:

> Have you concluded this yourself or are you repeating what is shown 
> on *one* website review????  When I tested both printers the 
> dither/banding was identical on both printers and several HP reps 
> have said that that part of the driver is identical, only the color 
> handling is different (and the heads are of course identical).
> 
> mark

Tom OConnell wrote:

>7960 print quality may turn out to be ok...so far I'm finding a 
>bluish cast to BW rgb prints that I don't like at all. 
>
on that note, here's some comments from CD Tobie about color of the 
prints in response to my referring to the #50 cartridge as the 
"Ash"cartridge (something I had heard some HP staff calling it..

"Ash is an interesting description. When I print with the HP 7960 in 
black and white (black and grays, really) mode, the results are 
relatively smooth, though there are a few very visible breaks in the 
gradients and quite color consistant, with a pleasant warm tint 
throughout that Ash describes nicely. When I print through a custom 
ProfilerPRO profile built at the no color adjustment setting (which they 
have interestingly named "sRGB") from that same desaturated gray image, 
the result is noticably cooler (a bit blue, but most people pick it as 
the "gray" one) without the breaks in the gradients, but with the bit of 
color wobble that you would expect to find when printing B&W with color 
inks. Six of one, half a dozen of the other... "


>I've also 
>found that most papers require you to "catch" them one at a time and 
>set them out to dry individually for at least an hour before they are 
>ready to be handled at all.
>
That would support Paul Roark's findings of extended dry down time for 
these print..

> At the fine print setting, it prints very 
>very slow. 
>
Well, it seeems that the best B&W print quality (the least driver 
sharpening and artifacts), in my experience, is with setting the print 
to Max dpi, not "best."

>All of that said, I may keep the 7960 for the ocassional glossy 8x10 
>and for the extra tray for holding 4x6 paper for the ocassional 
>snanpshot sized pic that can still be a very good desktop text 
>printer, but it just doesn't measure up for a production printer of 
>quality BW photos.
>  
>
Basically, that's  my own opinion too at the moment..



 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Ummm, I was asking about the statement that the 7960 is supposed to 
print b&w better than a 7660, which is something that I tested and 
could not reproduce, even though there is one well written review 
that shows a super compelling example of the supposed difference.  If 
I could have reproduced the difference in quality I would have 
purchased the 7960.

I also have both an 1160 and the 7660.  I get much more accurate 
gradients out of the 7660, but the 1160 dither pattern is better.  
The 7660 allows up to 8.5x14" prints which means you can get a nice 
full-frame 8x12" print out of one, which isn't that bad really.

I have only printed on HP Photo Premium Plus Glossy since that is the 
only paper rated at 100+ years with this printer.  It is quite nice 
paper once you get used to the gloss (heck, it took me a while to get 
used to matte only on the 1160).

What do you mean by, "bluish cast to BW rgb prints?"  Are you really 
printing your B&W using the rgb inks?  I don't see anything that I 
would call a blue cast when using the #59 cart... though, like all 
b&w prints, they do have some inherent tone (and yes, I do somewhat 
prefer warmer toned prints from MIS pigments).  

I don't know what you mean "doesn't measure up for a production 
printer of quality BW photos."  I just delivered a stack of matted 
8x12 prints from mine to my gallery and got nothing but praise... the 
printer *can* produce a quality b&w photo.

I also disagree that the 7660 carts are difficult to swap, I find the 
system very well designed and unlike the 2200 is doesn't dump a huge 
quantity of expensive ink each time you swap a cart.  Personally, 
I've never printed text on the 7660 since I would rather pump ink 
through my 1160 though... and then I also have a LaserJet.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom OConnell" 
<tomoc@y...> wrote:
> I have a 7960 and a room full of Epson printers. I was very 
intrigued 
> by the photoblack which I knew would allow me to make some Glossy 
BW 
> prints.
> 
> Comparing the 7960 to the 1160 is weird...the 1160 is a 10 year old 
> printer (but on really good matte paper with MIS or Piezo inks, it 
> will definitely hold it's own against the 7960 in print quality) 
and 
> it definitely requires some care and feeding to use inks in it that 
> were not part of the design (i.e. pigment ink). That said, most 
> people haven't had too much trouble keeping it working fine.
> 
> Let's talk about the 7960...very expensive ink...very...buy your 
> cartridges by the dozen, at least. Very intrusive software...it 
wants 
> to load everything under the sun...if you buy one, ignore all 
> installation instructions and simply add a printer from in the 
print 
> driver function of your computer...DO NOT LOAD and HP 
software...very 
> quirky and unstable for me at least. 
> 
> 7960 print quality may turn out to be ok...so far I'm finding a 
> bluish cast to BW rgb prints that I don't like at all. I've also 
> found that most papers require you to "catch" them one at a time 
and 
> set them out to dry individually for at least an hour before they 
are 
> ready to be handled at all. At the fine print setting, it prints 
very 
> very slow. Changing the carts in and out from photo to black is 
> somewhat more cumbersome than the Epson 2200 and wastes a little 
ink 
> as well. (printing text with the photo cart isn't really an 
> option...it winds up as gray text).
> 
> All of that said, I may keep the 7960 for the ocassional glossy 
8x10 
> and for the extra tray for holding 4x6 paper for the ocassional 
> snanpshot sized pic that can still be a very good desktop text 
> printer, but it just doesn't measure up for a production printer of 
> quality BW photos.
> 
> Remember the 7960 is limited to letter sized prints. I don't know 
the 
> epsons that are letter size printers, but I think there are a 
number 
> of them now that have most of the technology of the 2200 (4000, 
7600, 
> 9600). You might want to consider one of these printers...you will 
> have the benefit of the installed base and expertise of the users 
of 
> the above printers (not a small factor when I made my first choices 
> in just about the same position you are in today ((btw, mine was a 
> 1270 followed by a few 1160s for BW). Espon printers allow a lot of 
> flexibility in the way of third party ink, commercial RIPs (if that 
> ever interests you) and this forum (not a epson forum but by far 
the 
> largest following here).
> 
> Whatever you get, stop back here...there will surely be someone who 
> can help you work through issues (you will have some issues with 
ANY 
> printer <g>).
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Tom O'Connell
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" 
> <markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
> > Have you concluded this yourself or are you repeating what is 
shown 
> > on *one* website review????  When I tested both printers the 
> > dither/banding was identical on both printers and several HP reps 
> > have said that that part of the driver is identical, only the 
color 

> > handling is different (and the heads are of course identical).
> > 
> > mark