Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Scanning Negs

Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by randyrancier

I'm a real stickler for quality, coming from a large format camera 
background.  I'm planning on purchasing a MF (medium format) camera 
in the near future; I've been seeing some good deals.  BUT, I feel I 
will have a hard time justifying the expense of a 4000 dpi scanner.  
Are there any labs that will scan to that resolution?  If so, how 
much are they getting for a roll of 120 film?  Would it be more 
economical to send them already processed film and just have them 
scan the images that I want?
Thanks,
Randy

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Tom Baker

Randy  -
 
If you go that route, remember that all scans are not equal.  The skill of the scanner operator is a key element in a high quality scan.  It's not just the scanner.  So, try a few labs before you make up your mind.  As a comparison, if you know someone who gets consistently good scans from your chosen film/format, have them scan a couple that you also have scanned at the labs.  
 
Just as an example of the operator issue, a local lab told a friend that the lab could get better scans from MF on an Epson 3200 then on a Nikon 8000.  Either they had a bad Nikon 8000 or a faulty operator.  
 
Tom Baker

randyrancier <randyrancier@...> wrote:
I'm a real stickler for quality, coming from a large format camera 
background.  I'm planning on purchasing a MF (medium format) camera 
in the near future; I've been seeing some good deals.  BUT, I feel I 
will have a hard time justifying the expense of a 4000 dpi scanner.  
Are there any labs that will scan to that resolution?  If so, how 
much are they getting for a roll of 120 film?  Would it be more 
economical to send them already processed film and just have them 
scan the images that I want?
Thanks,
Randy



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
  
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Anthony G. Atkielski

randyrancier writes:

> I'm a real stickler for quality, coming from a large format camera 
> background.  I'm planning on purchasing a MF (medium format) camera 
> in the near future; I've been seeing some good deals.  BUT, I feel I 
> will have a hard time justifying the expense of a 4000 dpi scanner.

Quality isn't free.

> Are there any labs that will scan to that resolution?  If so, how
> much are they getting for a roll of 120 film?

About 1/3 the cost of a scanner (I'm not kidding).  For the cost of
scanning several rolls of film at a lab, you can buy your own scanner.
Lab scans are often of much poorer resolution, anyway, and they don't
optimize the scan unless you pay (a lot) extra.  You're far better off
buying a good scanner of your own and scanning yourself.  It does take a
lot of time, though.

I'm quite enamored of my Nikon LS-8000, which scans MF beautifully.
There are other scanners as well.  None of the MF film scanners is
cheap, but you can go the flatbed route and scan MF with lower
resolution, which is ten times cheaper.  Of course, the flatbed scans
are also many times poorer in quality, too.

See

 http://www.mxsmanic.com/street.jpg

for a scan of Portra 400BW on the LS-8000. The original shot was taken
with a Hasselblad on a tripod. See

 http://www.mxsmanic.com/street1.jpg
 
for a full-size excerpt of the same image, showing the original scan.
Two other examples:

 http://www.mxsmanic.com/salute.jpg (full frame)
 http://www.mxsmanic.com/salute1.jpg (excerpt at 100% scan size)

 http://www.mxsmanic.com/stairs.jpg (full frame)
 http://www.mxsmanic.com/stairs1.jpg (excerpt at 100% scan size)
 
> Would it be more economical to send them already processed film and
> just have them scan the images that I want?

Not at all.  See above.  Labs charge so much for scans that you can
amortize the cost of your own scanner with the savings in lab costs
after only a few rolls.

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Ernst Dinkla

>Randy  -

If you go that route, remember that all scans are not equal.  The
skill of the scanner operator is a key element in a high quality
scan.  It's not just the scanner.  So, try a few labs before you
make up your mind.  As a comparison, if you know someone who gets
consistently good scans from your chosen film/format, have them
scan a couple that you also have scanned at the labs.

Just as an example of the operator issue, a local lab told a
friend that the lab could get better scans from MF on an Epson
3200 then on a Nikon 8000.  Either they had a bad Nikon 8000 or a
faulty operator.

Tom Baker<

I have both scanners and with some care the 3200 scan can be
brought close to the Nikon 8000 scan. Both can be improved with
custom filmholders + scan methods. The Nikon 8000 will still be
ahead. Vuescan as the driver for both.

With the arrival of the Epson 4870 (including ICE in the
software)
I doubt it is wise to get a Nikon 9000 or 8000 for the analogue
period that remains (if the archives are not full with unscanned
120 film strips). That Epson seems to be even better than the
3200. It is recommended however to find the sweet spot of focus
on all the Epson 2450/3200/3170/4870 scanners.
MF and up, the Epson are not really 35 mm scanners but it must
be nice to scan 4 strips of 35 mm in one pass on the 4870.

http://robertdfeinman.com/tips/epson_4870_tip1.html

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/

Ernst

http://members.chello.nl/e.dinkla/Verhaal.pdf

http://members.chello.nl/e.dinkla/MF_FM_carrier.htm

http://members.chello.nl/e.dinkla/EpsonCarrierSolutions.pdf

for the last there's a better solution available now with fluid
mounting on a separate sheet of float glass.

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by randyrancier

Anthony, Thanks for your advice on scanners.  Looks like I will 
probably have to invest in a scanner and do it myself to get the 
quality I expect!

I was really intrigued by your night shots using Portra 400BW.  
Being out of conventional photography for quite a while I'm not 
familiar with this film.  Is it a BW film you develope yourself, or 
one of the color processed BW films.  The control of your 
hightlights is extraordinary, with shadow detail a plenty.  Loving 
night photography, I used to couldn't get that much shadow detail 
and highlight control using 4x5 Tri-X with a pyro developer.  I 
guess film technology has come a long way in 25 years!
Thanks
Randy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony G. 
Atkielski" <anthony@a...> wrote:
> randyrancier writes:
> 
> > I'm a real stickler for quality, coming from a large format 
camera 
> > background.  I'm planning on purchasing a MF (medium format) 
camera 
> > in the near future; I've been seeing some good deals.  BUT, I 
feel I 
> > will have a hard time justifying the expense of a 4000 dpi 
scanner.
> 
> Quality isn't free.
> 
> > Are there any labs that will scan to that resolution?  If so, how
> > much are they getting for a roll of 120 film?
> 
> About 1/3 the cost of a scanner (I'm not kidding).  For the cost of
> scanning several rolls of film at a lab, you can buy your own 
scanner.
> Lab scans are often of much poorer resolution, anyway, and they 
don't
> optimize the scan unless you pay (a lot) extra.  You're far better 
off
> buying a good scanner of your own and scanning yourself.  It does 
take a
> lot of time, though.
> 
> I'm quite enamored of my Nikon LS-8000, which scans MF beautifully.
> There are other scanners as well.  None of the MF film scanners is
> cheap, but you can go the flatbed route and scan MF with lower
> resolution, which is ten times cheaper.  Of course, the flatbed 
scans
> are also many times poorer in quality, too.
> 
> See
> 
>  http://www.mxsmanic.com/street.jpg
> 
> for a scan of Portra 400BW on the LS-8000. The original shot was 
taken
> with a Hasselblad on a tripod. See
> 
>  http://www.mxsmanic.com/street1.jpg
>  
> for a full-size excerpt of the same image, showing the original 
scan.
> Two other examples:
> 
>  http://www.mxsmanic.com/salute.jpg (full frame)
>  http://www.mxsmanic.com/salute1.jpg (excerpt at 100% scan size)
> 
>  http://www.mxsmanic.com/stairs.jpg (full frame)
>  http://www.mxsmanic.com/stairs1.jpg (excerpt at 100% scan size)
>  
> > Would it be more economical to send them already processed film 
and
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > just have them scan the images that I want?
> 
> Not at all.  See above.  Labs charge so much for scans that you can
> amortize the cost of your own scanner with the savings in lab costs
> after only a few rolls.

Re: Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Matthew Born

FWIW, Cameta is auctioning a bunch of Nikon 8000s you-know-where. There have
been several up at a time for a couple of weeks now. They are used --
factory demos -- and come with a 90 day Nikon and 1 year Cameta warranty
(and, of course, the opportunity to buy an extended warranty...). I got one
for $1350 and it looks virtually unused. All the manuals, CDs, and film
holders were still in their sealed boxes/envelopes. And it was packed to the
gills for shipping -- like a Dr. Suess illustration. Box in a box in a box
in a box. After using an Epson 2450 w/ both Vuescan and Silverfast, and
being quite pleased, I can honestly say the difference in my MF scans is
quite noticeable. The images from the Nikon are visibly better. And, as
Anthony points out, compared to the price of scanning MF rolls from a good
service bureau, it'll earn its keep relatively quickly.

Cheers,
Matthew Born

> Are there any labs that will scan to that resolution?  If so, how
> much are they getting for a roll of 120 film?

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Allen Birnbach

I, too, need to look at a scanner purchase. I have an Epson 2450, which has been fine 
for web and small prints, but it does seem lacking in some areas. I primarily am 
shooting Portra 160, but also TMX and TMY in 120 format. Any good reviews of the 
Epson 4870 and Nikon 9000 out there and info of availability? Any other scanners to 
consider?

Thanks.

Allen

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst Dinkla" 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> >Randy  -
> 
> If you go that route, remember that all scans are not equal.  The

RE: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Paul Roark

> I'm a real stickler for quality, coming from a large format camera 
> background.  I'm planning on purchasing a MF (medium format) camera 
> in the near future; I've been seeing some good deals.  BUT, I feel I 
> will have a hard time justifying the expense of a 4000 dpi scanner.

While I highly recommend purchasing a Nikon 8000, before I bought mine I
enlarged my MF negatives onto 8x10 Kodak "Fine Grain Positive" film, #7302.
This film can be tray processed under standard safelights.  In Xtol full
strength at room temperature it has a gamma of about 1 with 4 minutes of
development.  Once you have an 8x10 film image, you can get a very good scan
from a modest flatbed scanner with a transparency adapter.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Sean

What is a good way to fine the proper focus for scanning on a 3200?

Sean


>
>
> Message: 20
>    Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:15:19 +0100
>    From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...>
> Subject: Re: Scanning Negs
>
> . That Epson seems to be even better than the
> 3200. It is recommended however to find the sweet spot of focus
> on all the Epson 2450/3200/3170/4870 scanners.

--
Fine Art Black & White Photography
http://www.sbphoto.net

Re[2]: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Anthony G. Atkielski

randyrancier writes:

> Anthony, Thanks for your advice on scanners.  Looks like I will 
> probably have to invest in a scanner and do it myself to get the 
> quality I expect!

There are really two reasons to invest in a scanner: (1) as you say,
it's the only way to get the quality you expect; and (2) it's the only
way to avoid going bankrupt paying for scans.  Labs will provide you
with scans greatly inferior to the ones you can do yourself, and they'll
charge you a king's ransom for them.  And they'll probably scan the
images on a scanner no better than one you can buy yourself.

> I was really intrigued by your night shots using Portra 400BW.  
> Being out of conventional photography for quite a while I'm not 
> familiar with this film.  Is it a BW film you develope yourself, or 
> one of the color processed BW films.

Kodak Portra 400BW is one of the Portra family of films (which continues
to grow, despite rumors of Kodak pulling away from film).  It's
chromogenic black-and-white film, meaning that you process it as C-41
color negative film, but the images are monochrome (the film still has
the orange mask of color negatives, but the images on the film are in
shades of gray).

Because this is a B&W film processed as color, when you scan it, you
scan it as color film, then convert to grayscale (the newer versions of
NikonScan, incidentally, can do this automatically).  You have to do it
this way to drop the orange mask and to get the contrast right.  The
film scans extremely well, like all Portra films.

> The control of your hightlights is extraordinary, with shadow
> detail a plenty.

Portra 400BW is nice in a couple of respects:

1. It's easy to process, since any one-hour place can develop it (the
labs around my neighborhood will process it in 15 minutes flat, for
three dollars).

2. It has astonishingly fine grain, comparable to ISO 100 B&W films.

3. It is a low-contrast film, which is a drawback in low-contrast
scenes, but a great advantage in contrasty scenes, such as bright
sunlight and shadow, or nighttime shots.  You can see the soft contrast
in the salute.jpg shot, but you can also see how handy it is for the
other two night shots.  In night shots, Portra holds an amazing amount
of detail in shadows and highlights, which you can extract with a
scanner.

4. The resolution is extraordinarily high for such a fast film.

5. The film is ISO 400, so you have the advantage of fast film with the
fine grain and resolution of a much slower film.

6. The film has a lot of latitude, similar to what you'd get with other
color negative films.

Portra 400BW can't replace other films, of course, but the
characteristics above make it extremely handy.  Some other chromogenic
films are similar, although 400BW is the only chromogenic film I shoot
with any frequency.

> Loving
> night photography, I used to couldn't get that much shadow detail 
> and highlight control using 4x5 Tri-X with a pyro developer.

Remember this was medium-format, not 35mm ... but you're right in that
Portra 400BW seems to capture a tremendous amount of shadow and
highlight detail.  I've been amazed at what I could pull from the
negatives.

The scans you see were dodged and burned a lot.  On the raw scan, the
shadows were deeper and the highlights _looked_ blown.  However, the
scanner caught a lot of invisible detail, and by adjusting curves and
selectively burning and dodging in Photoshop, I was able to pull out
details far beyond anything I had expected or hoped for.

> I guess film technology has come a long way in 25 years!

The latest films are great.  If you want a nice color negative film, try
out the new Portra 400UC--it's amazing.  Lots of nice slide films
available, too.  And of course, for black and white, many of the
traditional favorites are still alive and kicking (I still shoot Tri-X
and Tech pan, for example).

RE: Re[2]: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Paul Roark

Anthony,

>Kodak Portra 400BW ... chromogenic black-and-white ... C-41
>color negative film, ... still has the orange mask ...

Have you compared scans with the non-masked version, Kodak's T400CN?  I've
been of the impression that the orange mask, while good for color printing,
is not helpful in B&W scanning.

>... when you scan it, you scan it as color film, ...
>You have to do it this way to drop the orange mask ...

I use T400CN and find, as with all B&W films, I prefer to scan as a
grayscale positive on my Nikon 8000.  The g/s files are smaller, and the
"positive" setting makes it easier to use the histogram and capture the full
information of the film.  Too often the "negative" scans seem to clip or
unduly compress the ends of the curve.

> ...
> 2. It has astonishingly fine grain, comparable to ISO 100 B&W films.

The grain in the shadows can be as bad as a 400 ISO silver film.  The
chromogenic films mask their grain with overlapping dye clouds.  This works
better in the highlights than the shadows, which might not have enough dye
to hide the grain.

I usually have T400CN in my Fuji 6456 Zi, which acts as my "snapshot"
camera.  (Tech Pan is in the Bronica RF 645.)  When I find I want a
finer-grained landscape and only have the Zi, I put it on a tripod and
"multi-sample" the scene.  Just like in scanning, the random grain/noise
averages out and virtually disappears.

>4. The resolution is extraordinarily high for such a fast film.

A hand held T400CN Zi shot printed to 16x20 is considered by some to be one
of my best shots.  MF, 645 T400CN (or Portra, I'm sure) can do very good
16x20 prints, but that is all the further I enlarge that film.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information, curves, and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

Re[4]: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Anthony G. Atkielski

Paul Roark writes:

> Have you compared scans with the non-masked version,
> Kodak's T400CN?

I don't remember.  I think I may have tried T400CN once.  I'm certain
I've tried some other chromogenic films, but I don't remember why I
ended up with a preference for Portra 400BW.

> I've been of the impression that the orange mask, while
> good for color printing, is not helpful in B&W scanning.

It doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt.  You do have to scan as a color
negative, though, so that the software removes the mask.

> I use T400CN and find, as with all B&W films, I prefer to scan as a
> grayscale positive on my Nikon 8000.  The g/s files are smaller, and the
> "positive" setting makes it easier to use the histogram and capture the full
> information of the film.  Too often the "negative" scans seem to clip or
> unduly compress the ends of the curve.

I set NikonScan to output a grayscale image, but the scan itself scans
the film as color negative.  Scanning Portra 400BW as a B&W negative
produces unsatisfactory results (very low contrast, for one thing).

> The grain in the shadows can be as bad as a 400 ISO silver
> film.

Well, the shadow areas are practically clear film, so this is not
surprising.

> The chromogenic films mask their grain with overlapping dye
> clouds.  This works better in the highlights than the shadows,
> which might not have enough dye to hide the grain.

I've noticed that Portra 400BW is rougher in the shadows than in the
highlights, but that's true for all negative films.

> I usually have T400CN in my Fuji 6456 Zi, which acts as my "snapshot"
> camera.  (Tech Pan is in the Bronica RF 645.)

Mmm ... Tech Pan!  If only it were not so slow!

> When I find I want a finer-grained landscape and only have the Zi, I
> put it on a tripod and "multi-sample" the scene. Just like in
> scanning, the random grain/noise averages out and virtually
> disappears.

I've been tempted to try this myself, but I've never had the patience.
Also, it requires sacrificing 16-bit mode (at least in Photoshop 5.x).

> A hand held T400CN Zi shot printed to 16x20 is considered by some to
> be one of my best shots. MF, 645 T400CN (or Portra, I'm sure) can do
> very good 16x20 prints, but that is all the further I enlarge that
> film.

It's all a matter of viewing distance vs. print size.  The larger the
format, the finer the scan, the finer the grain or resolution on the
film, the closer you can get to the print (expressed as a ratio to print
size) without seeing grain or loss of detail.

I wish there were a version of Tri-X with the same grain and resolution
as Tech Pan.  With very rare exceptions, I do not like grain.

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-18 by Ernst Dinkla

>What is a good way to fine the proper focus for scanning on a
3200?

Sean<

I've made a spiral staircase of strips of slide glass 0.85 mm
thick and on each step a brush stroke of grainy ink with some
scratches through it. One side of the staircase starts at 0 mm
and when turned over there's a 0.45 mm step first. So I can test
the sharpness per 0.40/0.45 mm step. Best focus is approximately
at 1.7 mm with my 3200. Others have found other distances from
the glass bed.

The scanner has three planes where it should be more or less in
focus. At the glass bed for reflective scanning, at 1 mm for the
filmholder and at almost 3 mm for objects larger than the
scannerbed (for reflective scanning again). Ideally it should be
in best focus on the film at 1 mm and the DOF of almost 3 mm
should take care of the reflective scans that normally are not
scanned higher than at 600 ppi. I guess Epson thinks that the DOF
will take care of the shifts in production tolerance as the
actual focus can be higher or lower than the 1 mm above the
glass. Finding the better focus isn't a dramatic quality increase
but it helps especially when the scan is improved in Phothoshop
later on. Even more important is the planerity that I get by wet
mounting the film.

See Norman Koren's pages for the focusing measurements.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-19 by Barrett Benton

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@a...> wrote:
> Paul Roark writes:
> 
> > Have you compared scans with the non-masked version,
> > Kodak's T400CN?
> 
> I don't remember.  I think I may have tried T400CN once.  I'm
> certain I've tried some other chromogenic films, but I don't 
> remember why Iended up with a preference for Portra 400BW.

Without straying too far afield (oh, who am I kidding?), I'd like to 
put in a good word for Ilford's XP2 Super chromogenic film, 
which I've beem using for three years with very good results. I 
prefer it somewhat to T400CN, but admittedly that was a scanner 
or two ago; having been using a Minolta 5400 for the past four 
months, I might take another look at Kodak, even though it looks 
like a new version of Portra 400BW is aboiut to replace both the 
old Portra and T400CN. (Then too, XP2 is the only one of these 
for which VueScan has a setting, and it works *quite* well).

- Barrett

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-20 by Alan Zinn

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst Dinkla" 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >What is a good way to fine the proper focus for scanning on a
> 3200?
> 
> Sean<
> 
> I've made a spiral staircase of strips of slide glass 0.85 mm
> thick and on each step a brush stroke of grainy ink with some
> scratches through it. One side of the staircase starts at 0 mm
> and when turned over there's a 0.45 mm step first. So I can test
> the sharpness per 0.40/0.45 mm step. Best focus is approximately
> at 1.7 mm with my 3200. Others have found other distances from
> the glass bed.
> 
> The scanner has three planes where it should be more or less in
> focus. At the glass bed for reflective scanning, at 1 mm for the
> filmholder and at almost 3 mm for objects larger than the
> scannerbed (for reflective scanning again). Ideally it should be
> in best focus on the film at 1 mm and the DOF of almost 3 mm
> should take care of the reflective scans that normally are not
> scanned higher than at 600 ppi. I guess Epson thinks that the DOF
> will take care of the shifts in production tolerance as the
> actual focus can be higher or lower than the 1 mm above the
> glass. Finding the better focus isn't a dramatic quality increase
> but it helps especially when the scan is improved in Phothoshop
> later on. Even more important is the planerity that I get by wet
> mounting the film.
> 
> See Norman Koren's pages for the focusing measurements.
> 
> Ernst

Ernst, Sean

I did a test with slide glass on the 3200 and it was sharpest with 
the emulsion right on the scanner glass. Raising it the thickness of 
the slide glass softened it. So much for DOF and neg holders!    
Someone posted a test method of laying a ruler lengthwise on the 
glass with one end raised a few mm .  The prime was the sharpest 
point along the ruler.  

SilverFast allows variable USM sharpening and no sharpening.  I found 
that with zero pre-sharpening I couldn't get as crisp an image later 
with PS USM as I could with auto sharpen.  One thing to bear in mind -
 Epson 2400 & 3200 use a diffuse light source for film. This cuts 
film grain and dust but effects sharpening. 

Another concern is that all scans are RGB before conversion to 256 
grey. Does the pre sharpening effect each color differently?  Seems 
like: (1) pre-sharpening would toss out a lot of data conversion to 
256 grey could use. (2) sharpening after converting would 
be "cleaner" than doing three channels.   Looks like the trick 
already suggested is to find a combo, pre AND post sharpening 
technique, that suites the image. 

For the experience I'd like to try wet scans.  What is the chemical 
substance in the fluid?  Would Pec-12 work?  Seems very time 
consuming for occasional scans but for a large-volume scanner it 
would save spotting.  

RE quality of scan - it seems to me that, assuming operator skill is 
good, the difference between a scan of a 6x6 or larger neg from a 
E3200 and a N8000 would be tough to see in a  11 x 14  ink-jet 
print.  

I looked at the Epson 4870 at the store.  It has interesting film 
holders with milk-white plex above the film. The lamp travels the 
length of the film like a Umax.  I have a like-new 3200 for sale :-)

AZ


Build a Lookaround!
The Lookaround Book, 2nd ed.
NOW SHIPPING
http://www.panoramacamera.us

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-20 by Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>  Too often the "negative" scans seem to clip or
> unduly compress the ends of the curve.

This brings up a point I felt should be made about the Nikon; That 
LED light source is adjustable over a two-stop range, something no 
fluorescent tube scanner can do. Dropping the 'analog gain' (why 
they chose to name it something so un-enlightening is a mystery) .5-
1.0 stops takes care of that clipping and compression, centers up 
the data, and allows you to go directly to positive without loss. 
Conversley, turning it up on a dark, contrasty transparency (mine 
are all perfect, I had to borrow one to test the idea-right) will 
extract shadow detail with less noise. And in extreme cases you can 
do two scans, one for each end, by varying the light intensity-that 
covers a much wider contrast range, again with relatively clean 
shadows.

Steve Karafyllakis

http:// www.stevekphoto.com

RE: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-20 by Austin Franklin

Hi Steve,

> This brings up a point I felt should be made about the Nikon; That
> LED light source is adjustable over a two-stop range, something no
> fluorescent tube scanner can do.

Hum...well, my scanner can simply stop down, or open up the lense aperture
if I want.  It\ufffds a cold cathode tube, not fluorescent...but same difference.
So, I have a many stop range I can use...but have found absolutely no need
to.  The other thing that most any scanner can do is MTF over the flat
field, and simply stopped down enough so you don\ufffdt have any depth of field
problems...

> Dropping the 'analog gain' (why
> they chose to name it something so un-enlightening is a mystery) .5-
> 1.0 stops takes care of that clipping and compression, centers up
> the data, and allows you to go directly to positive without loss.

Why can not the exact same results be achieved by adjusting the exposure
time?  All you are doing is moving the data on the curve up or down, by
adjusting either exposure/aperture/light source.

Regards,

Austin

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-20 by Ernst Dinkla

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Alan Zinn" <AZinn@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs


> I've made a spiral staircase of strips of slide glass 0.85 mm
> thick and on each step a brush stroke of grainy ink with some
> scratches through it. One side of the staircase starts at 0 mm
> and when turned over there's a 0.45 mm step first. So I can
test
> the sharpness per 0.40/0.45 mm step. Best focus is
approximately
> at 1.7 mm with my 3200. Others have found other distances from
> the glass bed.

> The scanner has three planes where it should be more or less in
> focus. At the glass bed for reflective scanning, at 1 mm for
the
> filmholder and at almost 3 mm for objects larger than the
> scannerbed (for reflective scanning again). Ideally it should
be
> in best focus on the film at 1 mm and the DOF of almost 3 mm
> should take care of the reflective scans that normally are not
> scanned higher than at 600 ppi. I guess Epson thinks that the
DOF
> will take care of the shifts in production tolerance as the
> actual focus can be higher or lower than the 1 mm above the
> glass. Finding the better focus isn't a dramatic quality
increase
> but it helps especially when the scan is improved in Phothoshop
> later on. Even more important is the planerity that I get by
wet
> mounting the film.
>
> See Norman Koren's pages for the focusing measurements.
>
> Ernst

>Ernst, Sean

I did a test with slide glass on the 3200 and it was sharpest
with
the emulsion right on the scanner glass. Raising it the thickness
of
the slide glass softened it. So much for DOF and neg holders!
Someone posted a test method of laying a ruler lengthwise on the
glass with one end raised a few mm .  The prime was the sharpest
point along the ruler. <

Alan, it is the same discussion I have with someone on the 3200
list. He has a 3200 that has its focus on approx. 0.5 mm above
the glassbed. That's very nice as he now can scan on the glassbed
itself. You seem to have an even more suitable focus for the
tasks you want to do. The distribution of focus per 2450/3200 is
however random and the DOF of about 3 mm is certainly there. Of
course half of your DOF will be underneath the glassbed if the
scanner is sharpest at the bed. In a sense it is a pity you
couldn't stick the ruler through the glassbed, there may be more
sharpness below the bed :-)

>SilverFast allows variable USM sharpening and no sharpening.  I
found
that with zero pre-sharpening I couldn't get as crisp an image
later
with PS USM as I could with auto sharpen.  One thing to bear in
mind -
 Epson 2400 & 3200 use a diffuse light source for film. This cuts
film grain and dust but effects sharpening. <

The 4870 adds ICE to that dust removing effect. Wet mounting if
properly done can reduce dirt as well. I sharpen in PS as I want
to know what is in the raw Vuescan scan. I will save that raw
scan at least till the first print is made.

>Another concern is that all scans are RGB before conversion to
256
grey. Does the pre sharpening effect each color differently?
Seems
like: (1) pre-sharpening would toss out a lot of data conversion
to
256 grey could use. (2) sharpening after converting would
be "cleaner" than doing three channels.   Looks like the trick
already suggested is to find a combo, pre AND post sharpening
technique, that suites the image.<

In the description of the Qimage sharpening filter (that's the
one you can use when a digital camera file is loaded, not the
sharpening that happens at printing stage) there's a way too
handle the R/G/B data separately as the frequencies of the hues
are different on the mosaic sensor. The influence of sharpening
is equalised. So B&W files made with digital cameras have a
problem there it seems. But an appropriate filter setting in
Qimage with the added custom B&W conversion would solve that.
Wonder how well this is done in "In Camera" conversions. The ARM
CPUs in cameras are capable enough but is the software that
advanced ?
For scans of B&W film the frequency of RGB sensors is the same. I
really don't know what is the best approach and whether it
matters. The question refined would be: does the sharpening of
the RGB file influence the grey levels and grey level detail
different to sharpening of the converted B&W image? There must be
someone who got the same doubts you have and tested it.

>For the experience I'd like to try wet scans.  What is the
chemical
substance in the fluid?  Would Pec-12 work?  Seems very time
consuming for occasional scans but for a large-volume scanner it
would save spotting. <

At first I thought that Kami SXL 2001 was just plain lighter
fluid or a slightly heavier distilate. It behaved very much alike
though the Kami evaporated slower. When I put the two together in
one bottle it didn't mix at all and Kami was at the bottom, so
they are different. I now use lighter fluid only as I didn't see
a difference in the scans itself.

!!!!!! It is "lighter" fluid, there are all kinds of dangers
included .......... carcinogenic, fire, can be swallowed, etc.
Hope that I will not be arrested when I go to NY in July. !!!!!!

>RE quality of scan - it seems to me that, assuming operator
skill is
good, the difference between a scan of a 6x6 or larger neg from a
E3200 and a N8000 would be tough to see in a  11 x 14  ink-jet
print.<

That's my opinion too. And with both wet mounted and the 3200
sharpened appropriately there's very little difference at even
larger sizes.

>I looked at the Epson 4870 at the store.  It has interesting
film
holders with milk-white plex above the film. The lamp travels the
length of the film like a Umax.  I have a like-new 3200 for sale
:-)<

Same thoughts here and a friend in Amsterdam has one already. ICE
has no influence on the scans he says. Think about the time you
gain on 4x5's.

The lamp travelling with the sensor most likely solves one of the
problems of the 2450/3200. The static lamp of the 3200 produces
more heat. To the extent that when I did two sample scans +/or
the "long exposure" of 4x5 with Vuescan I lost sharpness. With or
without wet mounting. The film expands and probably it even
shifts then with the wet mounting. By wetmounting underneath a
separate glass sheet that effect disappeared. The glass kept the
film cool enough. Given an even higher Dmax number quoted for the
4870 I guess they now could bring the effective light strength up
too. And possibly the evenness of the lighting. The C't test
showed that that is a problem with the 2450/3200 models. The
overall transparency is increased too. Two 4x5's in one scan.
Don't think I would use that ever but the centre of the unit will
be even better, so one wet mounted lengthwise in the middle will
be my first test.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs

2004-02-20 by Ernst Dinkla

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Scanning Negs


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>  Too often the "negative" scans seem to clip or
> unduly compress the ends of the curve.

>This brings up a point I felt should be made about the Nikon;
That
LED light source is adjustable over a two-stop range, something
no
fluorescent tube scanner can do. Dropping the 'analog gain' (why
they chose to name it something so un-enlightening is a mystery)
.5-
1.0 stops takes care of that clipping and compression, centers up
the data, and allows you to go directly to positive without loss.
Conversley, turning it up on a dark, contrasty transparency (mine
are all perfect, I had to borrow one to test the idea-right) will
extract shadow detail with less noise. And in extreme cases you
can
do two scans, one for each end, by varying the light
intensity-that
covers a much wider contrast range, again with relatively clean
shadows.

Steve Karafyllakis

http:// www.stevekphoto.com<

The two samplings + the right computation is done with the "long
exposure" setting in Vuescan. So "analogue gain" is not the
suitable name for a 'longer exposure' or 'more light' as it
doesn't shift the A/D conversion but "longer exposure" isn't the
simple slower scan either and may actually come closer to the A/D
shift effect. It works with probably all the Vuescan supported
scanners.

Ernst




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or
Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
-----------------------------------------------------------------
----~->

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts
may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and
Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW,
THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR
OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR
DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

film scanner review

2004-02-20 by Janet Redhawk

I think I'm getting in on this discussion late but can
anyone tell me where I can find a review on these?

thanks

J

http://www.redhawkphoto.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.