Digital BW, The Print

In reply to my previous message re: curves vs profiles I decided to 
do some experimenting! 

I set up my monitor using Adobe Gamme several times and got something 
which looked right however for me to see the full 90-100% in 1% 
segments I had to have the gamma turned right up which blew 
everything else out and I did not get true blacks (more of this 
later).

I have just printed out a great test chart which has 0-100% in 5% 
steps, 1-10% and 90-100% steps in 1%, and 0-10% and 90 to 100% in 2% 
steps.  When printed without a curve the mid-tones are blocked up and 
I cannot even get past 90% without seeing pure black.  The NCA-gs1 
curve allows me to get even tones all the way through to 94% and then 
I cannot discriminate any further.  The NCA-nc1 curve doesn't quite 
get as far 92% before blacking out.  

I can see how the GS curve works because it is one channel (not going 
to even attempt the colour curves!).  How easy is it to modify this 
curve to allow the 94-99% be lightened to see the delineation between 
the sections?  The gs1 curve has 16 points including 0 and 255 and 5 
points within the first quarter of the graph; these obviously do not 
match linear steps.  When you are modifying something which is tucked 
right in the bottom left of the graph things don't seem to move on 
the screen.  It doesn't help that on screen I cannot see past 92% 
anyway!

Any ideas from the collective wisdom?

Gareth

PS The fianl print settings were:

Colour Space Assigned: AdobeRGB 1998
Source Space: Adobe 98
Print Space: Same as source (When using the Epson 1270 profile it is 
pure black from 85%!)
Paper Setting: HWM
Dpi: 1440
NCA in Driver

Gareth,

to achieve what you need to see in the scale, the whole system needs to be 
addressed from a colour management perspective:

- Adobe Gamma is a poor substitute for a calibrated and characterized 
(profiled) monitor.

- The Epson driver (known for blocking the last 5-10% of the scale) may get 
better used either with a custom profile or at alternate settings than NCA.

- A custom dot gain curve may have to be designed to provide accurate soft 
proof under PS 6 or 7.

Since each of these are major topics of discussion, I would rather refer you to 
a book like Real World Photoshop or Real World Color Management (though 
the latter is possibly overkill for this) by  Bruce Fraser et al.

Assuming you are trying to print bw , you also have to figure what inks you 
should use and what alternate drivers may work better for you.  OEM inks and 
the stock Epson driver would make it very difficult to get a decent bw print. If 
you look up our archives (past messages plus the Files section) you may get  
the basics on the subject.



Antonis





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "garethlock4472" 
<g.loc@o...> wrote:

> In reply to my previous message re: curves vs profiles I decided to 
> do some experimenting! 
> 
> I set up my monitor using Adobe Gamme several times and got something 
> which looked right however for me to see the full 90-100% in 1% 
> segments I had to have the gamma turned right up which blew 
> everything else out and I did not get true blacks (more of this 
> later).
> 
> I have just printed out a great test chart which has 0-100% in 5% 
> steps, 1-10% and 90-100% steps in 1%, and 0-10% and 90 to 100% in 2% 
> steps.  When printed without a curve the mid-tones are blocked up and 
> I cannot even get past 90% without seeing pure black.  The NCA-gs1 
> curve allows me to get even tones all the way through to 94% and then 
> I cannot discriminate any further.  The NCA-nc1 curve doesn't quite 
> get as far 92% before blacking out.  
> 
> I can see how the GS curve works because it is one channel (not going 
> to even attempt the colour curves!).  How easy is it to modify this 
> curve to allow the 94-99% be lightened to see the delineation between 
> the sections?  The gs1 curve has 16 points including 0 and 255 and 5 
> points within the first quarter of the graph; these obviously do not 
> match linear steps.  When you are modifying something which is tucked 
> right in the bottom left of the graph things don't seem to move on 
> the screen.  It doesn't help that on screen I cannot see past 92% 
> anyway!
> 
> Any ideas from the collective wisdom?
> 
> Gareth
> 
> PS The fianl print settings were:
> 
> Colour Space Assigned: AdobeRGB 1998
> Source Space: Adobe 98
> Print Space: Same as source (When using the Epson 1270 profile it is 
> pure black from 85%!)
> Paper Setting: HWM
> Dpi: 1440
> NCA in Driver

Gareth,

I have a similar problem using the MIS variable mix quadtones with 
Somerset Enhanced Satin paper. The mid tones are blocked.  

Paul Roake suggested adjusting the curve by using a transfer 
function.  This is available in the full version Photoshop and MIS 
have a link to Jerry Nevins Tutorial.

http://www.jnevins.com/transferfunctioncurve.htm

Regards

Garry Bisshopp



--- 

In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "garethlock4472" 
<g.loc@o...> wrote:
> In reply to my previous message re: curves vs profiles I decided to 
> do some experimenting! 
> 
> I set up my monitor using Adobe Gamme several times and got 
something 
> which looked right however for me to see the full 90-100% in 1% 
> segments I had to have the gamma turned right up which blew 
> everything else out and I did not get true blacks (more of this 
> later).
> 
> I have just printed out a great test chart which has 0-100% in 5% 
> steps, 1-10% and 90-100% steps in 1%, and 0-10% and 90 to 100% in 
2% 
> steps.  When printed without a curve the mid-tones are blocked up 
and 
> I cannot even get past 90% without seeing pure black.  The NCA-gs1 
> curve allows me to get even tones all the way through to 94% and 
then 
> I cannot discriminate any further.  The NCA-nc1 curve doesn't quite 
> get as far 92% before blacking out.  
> 
> I can see how the GS curve works because it is one channel (not 
going 
> to even attempt the colour curves!).  How easy is it to modify this 
> curve to allow the 94-99% be lightened to see the delineation 
between 
> the sections?  The gs1 curve has 16 points including 0 and 255 and 
5 
> points within the first quarter of the graph; these obviously do 
not 
> match linear steps.  When you are modifying something which is 
tucked 
> right in the bottom left of the graph things don't seem to move on 
> the screen.  It doesn't help that on screen I cannot see past 92% 
> anyway!
> 
> Any ideas from the collective wisdom?
> 
> Gareth
> 
> PS The fianl print settings were:
> 
> Colour Space Assigned: AdobeRGB 1998
> Source Space: Adobe 98
> Print Space: Same as source (When using the Epson 1270 profile it 
is 

> pure black from 85%!)
> Paper Setting: HWM
> Dpi: 1440
> NCA in Driver

Many thanks for the info, it was just what I was looking for, just 
need to find a spare couple of hours to create a curve.  Hmm now 
where did I leave the kids playing? :)

Gareth

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "seaford6" 
<gbphoto@o...> wrote:
> Gareth,
> 
> I have a similar problem using the MIS variable mix quadtones with 
> Somerset Enhanced Satin paper. The mid tones are blocked.  
> 
> Paul Roake suggested adjusting the curve by using a transfer 
> function.  This is available in the full version Photoshop and MIS 
> have a link to Jerry Nevins Tutorial.
> 
> http://www.jnevins.com/transferfunctioncurve.htm
> 
> Regards
> 
> Garry Bisshopp
> 
> 
> 
> --- 
> 
> In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "garethlock4472" 
> <g.loc@o...> wrote:
> > In reply to my previous message re: curves vs profiles I decided 
to 
> > do some experimenting! 
> > 
> > I set up my monitor using Adobe Gamme several times and got 
> something 
> > which looked right however for me to see the full 90-100% in 1% 
> > segments I had to have the gamma turned right up which blew 
> > everything else out and I did not get true blacks (more of this 
> > later).
> > 
> > I have just printed out a great test chart which has 0-100% in 5% 
> > steps, 1-10% and 90-100% steps in 1%, and 0-10% and 90 to 100% in 
> 2% 
> > steps.  When printed without a curve the mid-tones are blocked up 
> and 
> > I cannot even get past 90% without seeing pure black.  The NCA-
gs1 
> > curve allows me to get even tones all the way through to 94% and 
> then 
> > I cannot discriminate any further.  The NCA-nc1 curve doesn't 
quite 
> > get as far 92% before blacking out.  
> > 
> > I can see how the GS curve works because it is one channel (not 
> going 
> > to even attempt the colour curves!).  How easy is it to modify 
this 
> > curve to allow the 94-99% be lightened to see the delineation 
> between 
> > the sections?  The gs1 curve has 16 points including 0 and 255 
and 
> 5 
> > points within the first quarter of the graph; these obviously do 
> not 
> > match linear steps.  When you are modifying something which is 
> tucked 
> > right in the bottom left of the graph things don't seem to move 
on 

> > the screen.  It doesn't help that on screen I cannot see past 92% 
> > anyway!
> > 
> > Any ideas from the collective wisdom?
> > 
> > Gareth
> > 
> > PS The fianl print settings were:
> > 
> > Colour Space Assigned: AdobeRGB 1998
> > Source Space: Adobe 98
> > Print Space: Same as source (When using the Epson 1270 profile it 
> is 
> > pure black from 85%!)
> > Paper Setting: HWM
> > Dpi: 1440
> > NCA in Driver

Before I go to all the trouble of creating a transfer curve for UT 
inks in a 1270 onto EAM has anyon else done it!

Thanks, not wanting to shirk but if someone else has put the effort 
in I might benefit if I ask nicely, pretty please!

Gareth

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "garethlock4472" 
<g.loc@o...> wrote:
> Many thanks for the info, it was just what I was looking for, just 
> need to find a spare couple of hours to create a curve.  Hmm now 
> where did I leave the kids playing? :)
> 
> Gareth
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "seaford6" 
> <gbphoto@o...> wrote:
> > Gareth,
> > 
> > I have a similar problem using the MIS variable mix quadtones 
with 
> > Somerset Enhanced Satin paper. The mid tones are blocked.  
> > 
> > Paul Roake suggested adjusting the curve by using a transfer 
> > function.  This is available in the full version Photoshop and 
MIS 
> > have a link to Jerry Nevins Tutorial.
> > 
> > http://www.jnevins.com/transferfunctioncurve.htm
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Garry Bisshopp
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- 
> > 
> > In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "garethlock4472" 
> > <g.loc@o...> wrote:
> > > In reply to my previous message re: curves vs profiles I 
decided 
> to 
> > > do some experimenting! 
> > > 
> > > I set up my monitor using Adobe Gamme several times and got 
> > something 
> > > which looked right however for me to see the full 90-100% in 1% 
> > > segments I had to have the gamma turned right up which blew 
> > > everything else out and I did not get true blacks (more of this 
> > > later).
> > > 
> > > I have just printed out a great test chart which has 0-100% in 
5% 
> > > steps, 1-10% and 90-100% steps in 1%, and 0-10% and 90 to 100% 
in 
> > 2% 
> > > steps.  When printed without a curve the mid-tones are blocked 
up 
> > and 
> > > I cannot even get past 90% without seeing pure black.  The NCA-
> gs1 
> > > curve allows me to get even tones all the way through to 94% 
and 
> > then 
> > > I cannot discriminate any further.  The NCA-nc1 curve doesn't 
> quite 
> > > get as far 92% before blacking out.  
> > > 
> > > I can see how the GS curve works because it is one channel (not 
> > going 
> > > to even attempt the colour curves!).  How easy is it to modify 
> this 
> > > curve to allow the 94-99% be lightened to see the delineation 
> > between 
> > > the sections?  The gs1 curve has 16 points including 0 and 255 
> and 
> > 5 
> > > points within the first quarter of the graph; these obviously 
do 
> > not 
> > > match linear steps.  When you are modifying something which is 
> > tucked 
> > > right in the bottom left of the graph things don't seem to move 
> on 
> > > the screen.  It doesn't help that on screen I cannot see past 
92% 
> > > anyway!
> > > 
> > > Any ideas from the collective wisdom?
> > > 
> > > Gareth
> > > 
> > > PS The fianl print settings were:
> > > 
> > > Colour Space Assigned: AdobeRGB 1998
> > > Source Space: Adobe 98
> > > Print Space: Same as source (When using the Epson 1270 profile 
it 

> > is 
> > > pure black from 85%!)
> > > Paper Setting: HWM
> > > Dpi: 1440
> > > NCA in Driver