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Which component is most limiting.

Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Kevin Gulstene

In my workflow I shoot film, scan and print digitally.  When I'm 
thinking about the technical issues I spend most of the time  thinking 
about the quality, sharpness and resolving power of my cameras, lenses, 
scanner and scanning software but not much time thinking about the 
printer.

This is a bit of a shotgun question but I am interested in people views 
on the printers contribution to the quality of the print and how 
important changes to the printer and drivers are relative to cameras, 
lenses and scanners.

1. Does anyone know what the resolving power of the Epson printers are 
(4 lp/mm 10lp/mm, 20 lp/mm)?
2. Is there a substantial difference between the different epson models 
(eg: 3000 vs 1280) in terms of resolving power?
3. Do different printing methods make a significant difference in these 
resolutions.
4. Do papers have a significant impact on resolution/sharpness number 
of tones rendered and tonal transition

Thanks

--
Kevin Gulstene

RE: [Digital BW] Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Austin Franklin

Hi Kevin,

> 1. Does anyone know what the resolving power of the Epson printers are
> (4 lp/mm 10lp/mm, 20 lp/mm)?

Depends on the printer.  You can do the math...if it's a 720DPI printer,
that's 360lp/inch, divide that by 25.4, or 14.7 lp/mm.

> 2. Is there a substantial difference between the different epson models
> (eg: 3000 vs 1280) in terms of resolving power?

Yes, but can you notice it...probably with a loupe.

> 3. Do different printing methods make a significant difference in these
> resolutions.

No, that's a fixed number that the mechanicals of the printer provide.

> 4. Do papers have a significant impact on resolution/sharpness number
> of tones rendered and tonal transition

Resolution/sharpness, yes.  Number of tones, probably minimally, and tonal
transition...not sure what you mean.

Regards,

Austin

Re: [Digital BW] Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Kevin Gulstene

Austin-


> Hi Kevin,
>
>> 1. Does anyone know what the resolving power of the Epson printers are
>> (4 lp/mm 10lp/mm, 20 lp/mm)?
>
> Depends on the printer.  You can do the math...if it's a 720DPI 
> printer,
> that's 360lp/inch, divide that by 25.4, or 14.7 lp/mm.

Yes, I can do the arithmetic but that seems to be a theoretical 
maximum.  What if the line pairs are grey.  I thought that the 720DPI 
is 720 printer dots per inch and it takes several printer dots to make 
a grey.  Doesn't dithering reduce this number.

I have printed the 21step greayscale that someone provided (Paul 
Roark?) which has small line pair patterns on it.  At 3.6 lp/mm the 
contrast is high and the lines obvious, at 7.2 the contrast is very low 
the lines are not distinct at all.  Under a loupe the vertical lines 
are much worse than the horizontal.  In practical terms is seems to me 
that the resolving power is much less that 14.7.

It also seems to me that the printers resolution is dwarfed by every 
other upstream component and I wonder whether you could even tell the 
difference between a good lens and an adequate lens in an inkjet print. 
  Or whether, for a fixed print size, you could tell the difference 
between a 4000dpi scan and a 2000dpi scan?

>
>> 4. Do papers have a significant impact on resolution/sharpness number
>> of tones rendered and tonal transition
>
> Resolution/sharpness, yes.  Number of tones, probably minimally, and 
> tonal
> transition...not sure what you mean.

For the numerically inclined it would be interesting to construct 
MTF(like) charts for paper/printer/driver combinations.

--
Kevin

RE: [Digital BW] Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Austin Franklin

Hi Kevin,

> >> 1. Does anyone know what the resolving power of the Epson printers are
> >> (4 lp/mm 10lp/mm, 20 lp/mm)?
> >
> > Depends on the printer.  You can do the math...if it's a 720DPI
> > printer,
> > that's 360lp/inch, divide that by 25.4, or 14.7 lp/mm.
>
> Yes, I can do the arithmetic but that seems to be a theoretical
> maximum.  What if the line pairs are grey.  I thought that the 720DPI
> is 720 printer dots per inch and it takes several printer dots to make
> a grey.  Doesn't dithering reduce this number.

Yes.  Is it significant or not, it depends on the image.

> I have printed the 21step greayscale that someone provided (Paul
> Roark?) which has small line pair patterns on it.  At 3.6 lp/mm the
> contrast is high and the lines obvious, at 7.2 the contrast is very low
> the lines are not distinct at all.  Under a loupe the vertical lines
> are much worse than the horizontal.  In practical terms is seems to me
> that the resolving power is much less that 14.7.

Print it at black only and see what you get.  Also, make sure you are
printing in high resolution mode.  And...it is very VERY dependant on what
resolution you send to the printer.  I'm going to guess this image is
natively 720PPI when sent to the printer that is maintained?

> It also seems to me that the printers resolution is dwarfed by every
> other upstream component and I wonder whether you could even tell the
> difference between a good lens and an adequate lens in an inkjet print.

Absolutely.  It depends on the size of the "enlargement", obviously.

> Or whether, for a fixed print size, you could tell the difference
> between a 4000dpi scan and a 2000dpi scan?

Again, it depends on the size of the enlargement.

> >
> >> 4. Do papers have a significant impact on resolution/sharpness number
> >> of tones rendered and tonal transition
> >
> > Resolution/sharpness, yes.  Number of tones, probably minimally, and
> > tonal
> > transition...not sure what you mean.
>
> For the numerically inclined it would be interesting to construct
> MTF(like) charts for paper/printer/driver combinations.

Be my guest ;-)

Regards,

Austin

RE: [Digital BW] Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Paul Roark

>>> 1. Does anyone know what the resolving power of the Epson printers are
>>> (4 lp/mm 10lp/mm, 20 lp/mm)?
>
> >Depends on the printer.  You can do the math...if it's a 720DPI
> >printer,
> >that's 360lp/inch, divide that by 25.4, or 14.7 lp/mm.

>Yes, I can do the arithmetic but that seems to be a theoretical
>maximum.  What if the line pairs are grey.  I thought that the 720DPI
>is 720 printer dots per inch and it takes several printer dots to make
>a grey.  Doesn't dithering reduce this number.

I get a range of about 7 to about 12 if I'm lucky.  The file size increase
from 360 to 720 lp/mm adds very little.  I'm assuming the printer is set to
1440.

The Epson 3000 was not quite as good as my 1160 and the more modern printers
I've tested, but close enough that in the real world, it would probably not
matter.

The gray and black ink resolution is, as I recall, usually about the same.
Of course, the lighter ink would be harder to see, so it might not look as
sharp.

>I have printed the 21step greayscale that someone provided (Paul
>Roark?) which has small line pair patterns on it.  At 3.6 lp/mm the
>contrast is high and the lines obvious, at 7.2 the contrast is very low
>the lines are not distinct at all.  Under a loupe the vertical lines
>are much worse than the horizontal.  In practical terms is seems to me
>that the resolving power is much less that 14.7.

That sounds about right.  Be careful to check the dpi of the test file.
It's supposed to be 360.  One was originally put in the Files section that
had a resolution of only 300 dpi, which would throw off the numbers.

>It also seems to me that the printers resolution is dwarfed by every
>other upstream component and I wonder whether you could even tell the
>difference between a good lens and an adequate lens in an inkjet print.
>  Or whether, for a fixed print size, you could tell the difference
>between a 4000dpi scan and a 2000dpi scan?

In my enlargements -- 16 x 20 and 22 x 28 -- the printer is usually not the
limiting factor.  Only my best negatives from the best medium format cameras
can deliver enough resolution through my Nikon 8000 at 4000 dpi to get near
perfect sharpness across the printed enlargement.  The show I'm now
preparing for has some of my old 16x20 silver prints in it also.  These were
shot with Zeiss medium format lenses (Rollei SL66) on Tmax 100, with a
tripod, and enlarged through Apo-Rodagon lenses.  They are, generally, not
as sharp as the digital inkjet prints.

>
>>> 4. Do papers have a significant impact on resolution/sharpness number
>>> of tones rendered and tonal transition

I have not measured the sharpness of the top RC papers, but my sense of it
is that they show a lot more of the digital artifacts.  Part of this
(probably most of it) is that the increased RC contrast makes defects
visible that were hidden on matte papers.

>For the numerically inclined it would be interesting to construct
>MTF(like) charts for paper/printer/driver combinations.

I wish I could.  I don't know how to measure the relative contrast of
high-resolution targets.  I suspect it takes some expensive equipment.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Austin Franklin

Hi Paul,

> Be careful to check the dpi of the test file.
> It's supposed to be 360.

If the file is only 360PPI, than the highest resolution it can print is
360/2 (because it's line pairs) /25.4 is 7.0866 lp/mm.

> >>> 4. Do papers have a significant impact on resolution/sharpness number
> >>> of tones rendered and tonal transition
>
> I have not measured the sharpness of the top RC papers, but my sense of it
> is that they show a lot more of the digital artifacts.  Part of this
> (probably most of it) is that the increased RC contrast makes defects
> visible that were hidden on matte papers.

The ink goes in further with matte papers, I believe, which would mean it
would spread more as well.

Regards,

Austin

Re: [Digital BW] Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Truman Prevatt

This would explain why there is little benefit in using 2880 dpi over 
1440 dpi for printing on matte papers on the 1280.  On gloss and 
semigloss would you see much beneift in using 2880 over 1440?

Truman

Austin Franklin wrote:

>Hi Paul,
>  
>
>>    
>>
>
>The ink goes in further with matte papers, I believe, which would mean it
>would spread more as well.
>
>Regards,
>
>Austin
>
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Austin Franklin

Hi Paul,

> > ...If the file is only 360PPI, than the highest resolution
> >it can print is 360/2 (because it's line pairs) /25.4 is 7.0866 lp/mm.
>
> Yes.  I have used 720 and 1440 resolution test files for the higher
> resolutions.  Putting that size file in the files section might be a bit
> much, however.

I'd like it if you would ;-)

> >> >>> 4. Do papers have a significant impact on
> resolution/sharpness number
> >> >>> of tones rendered and tonal transition
> >
> >> I have not measured the sharpness of the top RC papers, but my sense of
> it
> >> is that they show a lot more of the digital artifacts.  Part of this
> >> (probably most of it) is that the increased RC contrast makes defects
> >> visible that were hidden on matte papers.
>
> >The ink goes in further with matte papers, I believe, which would mean it
> >would spread more as well.
>
> As I understand it, however, one purpose of the inkjet coatings is to keep
> the ink restricted and pull the water straight down.  That is why the
> uncoated papers are less sharp.  With them the ink does spread
> horizontally.

My understanding as well!

Regards,

Austin

RE: [Digital BW] Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Paul Roark

> ...If the file is only 360PPI, than the highest resolution
>it can print is 360/2 (because it's line pairs) /25.4 is 7.0866 lp/mm.

Yes.  I have used 720 and 1440 resolution test files for the higher
resolutions.  Putting that size file in the files section might be a bit
much, however.

I'll be curious to see what happens with the Epson 1280 when I set it up,
but with the 1160 driver resolutions over 1440 in the image file cause the
driver to throw out image information.  The resolution lines become a mess,
with some missing and some run together.

>> >>> 4. Do papers have a significant impact on resolution/sharpness number
>> >>> of tones rendered and tonal transition
>
>> I have not measured the sharpness of the top RC papers, but my sense of
it
>> is that they show a lot more of the digital artifacts.  Part of this
>> (probably most of it) is that the increased RC contrast makes defects
>> visible that were hidden on matte papers.

>The ink goes in further with matte papers, I believe, which would mean it
>would spread more as well.

As I understand it, however, one purpose of the inkjet coatings is to keep
the ink restricted and pull the water straight down.  That is why the
uncoated papers are less sharp.  With them the ink does spread horizontally.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Kevin Gulstene

Paul-

Thanks for your comments.
>
>>>> 1. Does anyone know what the resolving power of the Epson printers 
>>>> are
>>>> (4 lp/mm 10lp/mm, 20 lp/mm)?
>>
>>> Depends on the printer.  You can do the math...if it's a 720DPI
>>> printer,
>>> that's 360lp/inch, divide that by 25.4, or 14.7 lp/mm.
>
>> Yes, I can do the arithmetic but that seems to be a theoretical
>> maximum.  What if the line pairs are grey.  I thought that the 720DPI
>> is 720 printer dots per inch and it takes several printer dots to make
>> a grey.  Doesn't dithering reduce this number.
>
> I get a range of about 7 to about 12 if I'm lucky.  The file size 
> increase
> from 360 to 720 lp/mm adds very little.  I'm assuming the printer is 
> set to
> 1440.
>
> The Epson 3000 was not quite as good as my 1160 and the more modern 
> printers
> I've tested, but close enough that in the real world, it would 
> probably not
> matter.
>
> The gray and black ink resolution is, as I recall, usually about the 
> same.
> Of course, the lighter ink would be harder to see, so it might not 
> look as
> sharp.
>
>> I have printed the 21step greayscale that someone provided (Paul
>> Roark?) which has small line pair patterns on it.  At 3.6 lp/mm the
>> contrast is high and the lines obvious, at 7.2 the contrast is very 
>> low
>> the lines are not distinct at all.  Under a loupe the vertical lines
>> are much worse than the horizontal.  In practical terms is seems to me
>> that the resolving power is much less that 14.7.
>
> That sounds about right.  Be careful to check the dpi of the test file.
> It's supposed to be 360.  One was originally put in the Files section 
> that
> had a resolution of only 300 dpi, which would throw off the numbers.

It was the 300 dpi one.  With the 360 dpi file the 7.2 lines resolved 
easily.  With this test and another test file I made my numbers are 
similar to yours.  Greater than seven and less than 10.


>
>> It also seems to me that the printers resolution is dwarfed by every
>> other upstream component and I wonder whether you could even tell the
>> difference between a good lens and an adequate lens in an inkjet 
>> print.
>>  Or whether, for a fixed print size, you could tell the difference
>> between a 4000dpi scan and a 2000dpi scan?
>
> In my enlargements -- 16 x 20 and 22 x 28 -- the printer is usually 
> not the
> limiting factor.  Only my best negatives from the best medium format 
> cameras
> can deliver enough resolution through my Nikon 8000 at 4000 dpi to get 
> near
> perfect sharpness across the printed enlargement.  The show I'm now
> preparing for has some of my old 16x20 silver prints in it also.  
> These were
> shot with Zeiss medium format lenses (Rollei SL66) on Tmax 100, with a
> tripod, and enlarged through Apo-Rodagon lenses.  They are, generally, 
> not
> as sharp as the digital inkjet prints.

This is very interesting!  If you are enlarging be a factor of 7-10 and 
the print is limiting at say 7 lp/mm then you need to deliver about 50 
to 70 lp/mm from the scanner/lens/film before the printer is the 
limiting factor. That's quite a high number.

>
>>
>>>> 4. Do papers have a significant impact on resolution/sharpness 
>>>> number
>>>> of tones rendered and tonal transition
>
> I have not measured the sharpness of the top RC papers, but my sense 
> of it
> is that they show a lot more of the digital artifacts.  Part of this
> (probably most of it) is that the increased RC contrast makes defects
> visible that were hidden on matte papers.
>
>> For the numerically inclined it would be interesting to construct
>> MTF(like) charts for paper/printer/driver combinations.
>
> I wish I could.  I don't know how to measure the relative contrast of
> high-resolution targets.  I suspect it takes some expensive equipment.

Yes, I thought about problems of measurement only after writing it.  It 
would be interesting though.

Re: Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Peter Nelson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Gulstene

> 1. Does anyone know what the resolving power of the Epson 
> printers are (4 lp/mm 10lp/mm, 20 lp/mm)?

Because the printers resample to fixed resolutions, they are lower 
than their DPI numbers suggest.   Depending on the printer most 
Epson resample to either 720 of 1440 DPI.  You can do the math from 
there.

See my experiments in printing resolution.  (they're a bit out of 
date now but they should give you an idea.
http://studio-nelson.com/inkjet/prnres0.htm

The important question is whether modern printer resolution exceeds 
human visual acuity.  I think under most practical circumstances it 
does.   So you could say the viewer is a weaker link in the chain.

As far as limitations go, each component inserts a DIFFERENT 
limitation.  For instance, despite your focus on printer resolution, 
the imager or scanner probably introduces the most serious 
resolution problem, at least for large prints.    Imagine a 12 MP 
camera - 3000x4000 pixels.   At 300 PPI that's only a 10 x 13 
print.  And any modern printer can certainly do better than 300 
PPI.    And few people own a 12 MP camera. 

On the other hand, the printer introduces a serious dynamic range 
problem.   The difference between the blackest black and whitest 
white you can get on a print is way narrower than most original 
scenes.   

Color gamut is another weak link in the chain.

Thern there are focus and optical defects introduced by the camera 
lens.

Every component introduces its own special limitation.

Re: [Digital BW] Which component is most limiting.

2003-05-30 by Anthony Atkielski

Kevin writes:

> It also seems to me that the printers resolution is
> dwarfed by every other upstream component and I wonder
> whether you could even tell the difference between a
> good lens and an adequate lens in an inkjet print.

In digital imaging (or in digital anything, if it's a process that must
interface with the real world), the endpoints are always analog, and those
endpoints constrain the performance of the entire system.  With respect to
imaging, the weakest link by far is the printing process.  No matter how
good it is, you'll never get the image quality that you captured with your
film or sensor.  It's nice to have density on your slide of 1000:1 or even
10000:1, but you'll never see that on a print; you'll be lucky to see even a
tenth of that.

I don't see this as an argument against using the best equipment all along
the line, but it does mean that any compromise at all on the printing
process will pretty much negate a large part of your investment everywhere
else.

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