Digital BW, The Print

on 3/1/2003 8:45 PM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> The X-Rite measures the following dmax's for the papers:
> 
> EEM - 1.68
> 
> Epson Ultra Smooth - 1.60
> 
> Eclipse Satine - 1.60.

I was looking through my portfolio today---and I became sad. Sad because all
the prints printed with pigmented inks (sundance piezo, generations enhanced
pigments) look flat and lifeless.  In the past I've been trying to talk
myself into thinking that "in the right light" they look ok, and they'll
last a long time. But, I can't fool myself any longer. While a few prints
work well with the muted range of the pigmented inks, most don't have the
sense of depth and 3 dimensionality that I long for and that the medium of
photography used to portray.  In a nutshell: I'm tired of painting with
watercolors when I really want to paint with oils.  I mean imagine Salvador
Dali's surrealist images painted in muted water colors and blacks.  Those
melting clocks would be just sittin' flat on the page.

Does anyone here share my frustration with the pigmented ink on art paper
direction of fine art inkjet printing?

How can I be happy once again with my work? Any suggestions? How's the
coating/meyer rod thing coming along Robert? Does the Epson 2200 really have
the look and feel of dyes on paper?  Please feel free to help me anyone.

I now have an Epson 1200 loaded with CIS and Generations Enhanced inks.
An Epson 1160 with Piezo (sundance) inks, and plug-in driver.

And a pile of EEM paper and flaking Orwell paper.

Wow, I feel better already now that I've gotten this off my chest. Thanks.




-Bruce

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Bruce 

> I'm tired of painting with  watercolors when I really 
> want to paint with oils.  

Are you an artist?   If you are, and you get any of the 
major commercial/illustration art publications like 
Communication Arts or the Spectrum Design fantasy 
illustration annual, take a look at the media listed 
by many current artists.  "Oil/Digital" comes up a lot.
Or "Acrylic/Digital".   These artists are actually
COMBINING traditional and inkjet media, with great results!

Last week here I posted a link to some experiments I've
been doing on combining inkjet and traditional artist's
media:
http://studio-nelson.com/odd2200a.htm

What I don't understand is why so many inkjet printers are
happy SIMULATING other art techniques rather than DOING them.
For instance, lots of places sell "inkjet canvas" so you
can print onto canvas with an inkjet-receptive coating.  What's
the point of that?  No one will confuse it with a painting. 
And canvas, because of its texture, will never be as good
for reproducing photos as something smooth, like paper.
So it's like "simulated woodgrain".   Inkjet canvasses
aren't usually gesso'd, so you can't paint on them afterwards.

Or another example is the recent discussion here on "duotone"
printing via Photoshop.  Duotone is a method that was developed
for halftone printing, where two separate screens, at angles to
each other, are used, two separate inks are used, and there
are two printing passes.  "Duotone" in Photoshop with an 
inkjet printer is just a simulation that misses the whole point
 - another kind of plastic woodgrain.

If you want an oil or acrylic look, use oils or acrylics! 
Inkjets have their own strengths. If you want the strengths
of both, use both, together.

> http://studio-nelson.com/odd2200a.htm

Very interesting stuff, Peter.  Regarding your comment here:

"This suggests to me that the Epson Matte Black ink is forumulated 
very differently from the other inks, not just in terms of its 
pigment, but also its vehicle, since it has such different ability to 
be absorbed into the surface."

You might want to read this explanation from inkjetart, if you 
haven't seen it already:

http://www.inkjetart.com/pro/7600_9600/black_mode.html

They explain that matte black ink, unlike the photo black, is not 
micro-encapsulated with a polymer resin coating.  They also state 
that, "Using a DUAL Matte Black (Matte Black + Matte Black) 
eliminates the micro-encapsulated Light Black, and allows for even 
better printing on most uncoated papers."

Dan

I'm with you Bruce, that's why I switched to the ProPhoto inks (Gen5) even though they have their own set of issues. Printing on glossy stock helps a lot in terms of avoiding the flat look you've been noticing. I've personally also found that both the Epson Pigments and the Gen5 inks have a slightly more saturated look to them than the Epson dyes, which tends to make prints have a little more color contrast and "pop" to them, imho - especially when printed on glossy materials and with a good profile. 

You might also want to look into MIS' new ultrachrome-style inks for the older printers, they look quite promising.

on 3/2/2003 8:36 AM,Peter wrote:

> If you want an oil or acrylic look, use oils or acrylics!
> Inkjets have their own strengths. If you want the strengths
> of both, use both, together.



Thanks Peter. If I were a painter I certainly would! But I'm a photographer
and would like the look of photography rather than dull but long lasting
inks on luxurious fine art paper.

I'd be happy for long lasting photographs printed on photo paper that lasts
a long time, color and monochrome.

Since this is a b&w, and I assume, photography related list, I was wondering
if others were feeling my frustration: ie. trying to learn to love low
impact prints on fine art paper?

-Bruce

on 3/2/2003 8:36 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 23
> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 08:20:42 -0800
> From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> Subject: I'm tired of watercolor, I want to paint with oils
> 
> 
>>> The X-Rite measures the following dmax's for the papers:
>>> 
>>> EEM - 1.68
>>> 
>>> Epson Ultra Smooth - 1.60
>>> 
>>> Eclipse Satine - 1.60.
> 
>> ... pigmented inks ... look flat...
>> In a nutshell: I'm tired of painting with
>> watercolors when I really want to paint with oils.
> 
>> Wow, I feel better already now that I've gotten this off my chest.
> 
> The UC VM 4.3 inkset is RC paper compatible.  A dmax that is more than a
> silver print, with no coating required, will soon be available.  There is a
> variety of black inks that can be used.  Epson Archival Black is about the
> darkest pigment black at about 2.2 on most modern RC papers.  With dyes you
> can get over 3.  I'd stick to the pigmented blacks, however.  Once you're
> over 2.0, there isn't much visual difference.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com


Thanks Paul,

Will this be an inkset I can run on my 1160?  Or, will there be a version of
these inks that will work with the old cone driver like the MIS FS inks?

 
-Bruce

Paul what IS the d max of a well made silver print?

Jerry

On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 08:06  AM, Peter Nelson wrote:

> Or another example is the recent discussion here on "duotone"
> printing via Photoshop.  Duotone is a method that was developed
> for halftone printing, where two separate screens, at angles to
> each other, are used, two separate inks are used, and there
> are two printing passes.

actually duotones use the very same printing method offset presses use 
for 1 to 8 or whatever inks used, cmyk mixes or special inks, or spot 
colors, or whatever... just that you choose what two or more precise 
inks, rather than rely on the mixes of the various cmyk sources.  Or, 
using one ink, with two or more passes to give more depth etc to the 
offset print.
   I believe you like the term "sherlock"?  screenings and angles of 
same are not only for duotone printing... why make it sound like it's a 
special mix.

  "Duotone" in Photoshop with an
> inkjet printer is just a simulation that misses the whole point
>  - another kind of plastic woodgrain.

doing "duotone" in ps for inkjet is not intended to simulate a press 
run, who'd want to do that. It's a way to achieve a richer toning, 
prior to printing, that's it... no, it's not another plastic woodgrain, 
you missed the point.


your posts about digital oils and acrylics, and combining techniques, 
is nothing new, artists and photoartists have been doing that for a 
very long time as well, and transfers of inkjet prints printed to glue 
etc, printing on 'real' wood, metal etc... there is no end to what can 
be achieved with imagination and creativity. I print on paper bags, and 
on my own paper, even tried wax paper (fun stuff that), soak my inkjet 
prints in tea, wax them, use solvents to transfer toner copies, water 
transfers are fun from inkjet prints, guessoed, over printing, lots to 
play with. nothing new.

So for those who prefer to print on prepared inkjet stuff, canvas, 
wood, that would be their call, their creativity, their whatever... I 
don't understand your point or why it makes a difference to you.
Carolyn

Bruce,

The MIS UC VM inkset (my terminology -- I don't know what MIS will call it,
if anything) will run on all the usual Epson printers.  I use an 1160 for
getting the inks right.

I don't know if MIS will have an FS version.  It would not surprise me if
they do.  I'm not currently working on such an inkset, but it would be easy
to take my toner and mix an FS inkset with the same properties.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com


____________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bruce [mailto:smthopr@...]
  Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 10:51 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re:I'm tired of watercolor, I want to paint with
oils


  on 3/2/2003 8:36 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

  > Message: 23
  > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 08:20:42 -0800
  > From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
  > Subject: I'm tired of watercolor, I want to paint with oils
  >
  >
  >>> The X-Rite measures the following dmax's for the papers:
  >>>
  >>> EEM - 1.68
  >>>
  >>> Epson Ultra Smooth - 1.60
  >>>
  >>> Eclipse Satine - 1.60.
  >
  >> ... pigmented inks ... look flat...
  >> In a nutshell: I'm tired of painting with
  >> watercolors when I really want to paint with oils.
  >
  >> Wow, I feel better already now that I've gotten this off my chest.
  >
  > The UC VM 4.3 inkset is RC paper compatible.  A dmax that is more than a
  > silver print, with no coating required, will soon be available.  There
is a
  > variety of black inks that can be used.  Epson Archival Black is about
the
  > darkest pigment black at about 2.2 on most modern RC papers.  With dyes
you
  > can get over 3.  I'd stick to the pigmented blacks, however.  Once
you're
  > over 2.0, there isn't much visual difference.
  >
  > Paul
  > http://www.PaulRoark.com


  Thanks Paul,

  Will this be an inkset I can run on my 1160?  Or, will there be a version
of
  these inks that will work with the old cone driver like the MIS FS inks?


  -Bruce



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jerry,

My lightly-selenium-toned Kodak Polymax Fine Art (fiber paper) prints in
Dektol 1:2 usually give me a real-world dmax of 1.9.  I can get 2+ on test
strips, but with the low-contrast toe that characterizes wet prints, one has
no contrast down there.  So, in real prints 1.9 is about it.  Some papers
might have marginally higher, but I think this Kodak paper is competitive.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com


______________________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 11:12 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:I'm tired of watercolor, I want to paint
withoils


  Paul what IS the d max of a well made silver print?

  Jerry


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I did an test a while ago on different silver papers exposing thru
filmbase only for maximum black and got these results (using Dektol and
no selenium)

AGFA MultiContrast              2,06

Ilford MG4                             2,06

Ilford WT                               2,21

Berger                                  2,14

Kenthmere Art Classic           1,74

 

 

Regards

Soren

 

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] 
Skickat: den 2 mars 2003 20:43
Till: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Ämne: RE: [Digital BW] Re:I'm tired of watercolor, I want to paint
withoils

 

Jerry,

My lightly-selenium-toned Kodak Polymax Fine Art (fiber paper) prints in
Dektol 1:2 usually give me a real-world dmax of 1.9.  I can get 2+ on
test
strips, but with the low-contrast toe that characterizes wet prints, one
has
no contrast down there.  So, in real prints 1.9 is about it.  Some
papers
might have marginally higher, but I think this Kodak paper is
competitive.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com


______________________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 11:12 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:I'm tired of watercolor, I want to paint
withoils


  Paul what IS the d max of a well made silver print?

  Jerry


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
resources on the homepage.




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT
 
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=246920.2960106.4328965.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1705
019182:HM/A=1464858/R=0/*http:/www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/cpm/grp/300_Cquo
_1/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl> 


 
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=246920.2960106.4328965.2848452/D=egrou
pmail/S=:HM/A=1464858/rand=575117047> 


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage. 




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carolyn Frayn 
<carolynfrayn@s...> wrote:
> 
> On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 08:06  AM, Peter Nelson wrote:
> 
> > Or another example is the recent discussion here on "duotone"
> > printing via Photoshop.  Duotone is a method that was developed
> > for halftone printing, where two separate screens, at angles to
> > each other, are used, two separate inks are used, and there
> > are two printing passes.
> 
> actually duotones use the very same printing method offset presses 
use 
> for 1 to 8 or whatever inks used, cmyk mixes or special inks, or 
spot 
> colors, or whatever... just that you choose what two or more 
precise 
> inks,

Not in Photoshop, you don't.   Photoshop has no direct control
over the ink.   The driver does that.  Furthermore you're not 
creating a true screen when you print with an inkjet printer.

> screenings and angles of same are not only for 
> duotone printing.

But duotone printing does require screens and angles.  Else
it's a simulation of duotone.

Lately I've see a rise in popularity of inkjet "lithography".
Lithography is another printing technique that has a specific 
meaning.    When you simulate it in inkjet it's not lithography.

>>>
>>
>> actually duotones use the very same printing method offset presses
> use
>> for 1 to 8 or whatever inks used, cmyk mixes or special inks, or
> spot
>> colors, or whatever... just that you choose what two or more
> precise
>> inks,
>
> Not in Photoshop, you don't.

I'm perfectly aware of that. I didn't say that it was in Photoshop. You 
choose the inks you are asking the press to use, you use photoshop to 
try and emulate what that approach will offer by choosing say a pantone 
or build that closely resembles the inks choosen.


> Photoshop has no direct control
> over the ink.   The driver does that.

the imagesetter,  plate maker, the press man.


> Furthermore you're not
> creating a true screen when you print with an inkjet printer.

that was my point Peter, that we aren't using duotones to emulate what 
a press does.  That we ARE using them to create a tone, a way to tone, 
that's it.  Who cares what we use, or what it's called, if it gives 
results we are happy with, or at least a beginning.




>
>> screenings and angles of same are not only for
>> duotone printing.
>
> But duotone printing does require screens and angles.  Else
> it's a simulation of duotone.

That's what I was saying.  Just that your words left the impression 
duotone alone used screens and angles, I was trying to point out that 
that was what offset press runs do in general, not just related to 
multitones.

by the way, I would say the whole of photoshop is a simulation of a 
print, whether it's cmyk, multitone or inkjet, lightjet, film 
recorder... simulation until real.

>
> Lately I've see a rise in popularity of inkjet "lithography".
> Lithography is another printing technique that has a specific
> meaning.    When you simulate it in inkjet it's not lithography.

but where would the offset world be without the invention of 
lithography, and at the time of it's invention it too was damned as a 
lowly way to create 'real art'...  I don't see the need to over analyze 
all of this, we create, we use what we have in ways that we want, so be 
it. Simulation or not, copy or a variation of old techniques or not, if 
it's from your heart, if you like it, if it moves you... go for it, if 
it sells, hey... that's cool. Same holds in my opinion for the ongoing 
and boring discussions of what is art, or is it a 'real' photo. Too 
much talk, not enough creating.

how about using an inkjet to etch stone...why not, they can use it to 
create human tissue, or circuit boards...

is it the labels that bother you?  to me it's just another form of 
evolution. It'll all level off and who cares what they call it.  well 
hang on, inkjet humans, evolution, how cool is this.
Carolyn

> is it the labels that bother you?  

Yes, because this is a technical field where precise
communication matters.   I think we should use words
according to their precise meanings.  Mark Twain said,
"How many legs does a dog have if you call a tail a leg?
Answer: Four.  Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one."

When someone develops a new printing method or approach
we should invent a new name for it rather than using an
existing name and causing confusion.  That's REAL evolution!

>
> When someone develops a new printing method or approach
> we should invent a new name for it rather than using an
> existing name and causing confusion.  That's REAL evolution!

or marketing...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carolyn Frayn 
<carolynfrayn@s...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > When someone develops a new printing method or approach
> > we should invent a new name for it rather than using an
> > existing name and causing confusion.  That's REAL evolution!
> 
> or marketing...

Marketing is when you take an existing concept that 
already HAS a name, and give it another name.  Example:
"giclee" for inkjet printing on fine-art media.