Digital BW, The Print

I got the following announcement this morning about Sundance inks and software from Digital Art Supplies which will be of interest to the group. Yet another source and option. The marketplace is happily filling up!

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html


 
"Yesterday Sundance Image Technology announced "Neutral Warm Quad Inks" for Epson printers.  Today, we are pleased to announce to you that we have a strategic relationship with Sundance Image Technology & R9 Corp.  

 

So you ask, who is Sundance & who is R9 ? ???  These two companies are the creators and manufacturers of what has been known in the industry as PiezographyT BW and PiezographyT BW Pro. Until recently the inks and software were subject to an exclusive marketing arrangement with Cone Editions.  Sundance has now made available to us EXACTLY the same inks as the original PiezographyT as well as the R9 Adobe plug-in and a large number of profiles (some new ones too).  Oh yes, our prices are much lower as well !! (up to 35% off)

 

This Sundance ink is called Sundance Neutral Warm Quad inks and is available as a kit for a number of printers. (7000& 9000 available soon) The installation kit contents:


-Sundance Adobe Photoshop Plug-in software.
--includes drivers for EPSON 860, 980, 1160, 1200, 1280, 1290 and 3000 -ICQ Profiles for more than 30 popular papers as well as a general purpose profile for unsupported papers.
-Instruction Manual for B&W printing on CD
-1 set (1 black & 1 multiblack) cartridges for selected printer
-1 set of cleaning cartridges
-"Quad" Black Fine Art Multipack I - 8.5x11- Five Sheets each of the best papers for Quad Black Printing, Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 188, Hahnemuhle William Turner 190, Schoellershammer Velvet 225 & Hahnemuhle Allegretto 160."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeap...is that weird or what...who would ever buy the old Cone inks when you
could buy MIS or Piezotone inks?  What was DAS thinking...are they not aware
of all the problems with this ink?

Robert

On 6/26/02 12:54 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> I got the following announcement this morning about Sundance inks and software
> from Digital Art Supplies which will be of interest to the group. Yet another
> source and option. The marketplace is happily filling up!
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> "Yesterday Sundance Image Technology announced "Neutral Warm Quad Inks" for
> Epson printers.  Today, we are pleased to announce to you that we have a
> strategic relationship with Sundance Image Technology & R9 Corp.
> 
> 
> 
> So you ask, who is Sundance & who is R9 ? ???  These two companies are the
> creators and manufacturers of what has been known in the industry as
> PiezographyT BW and PiezographyT BW Pro. Until recently the inks and software
> were subject to an exclusive marketing arrangement with Cone Editions.
> Sundance has now made available to us EXACTLY the same inks as the original
> PiezographyT as well as the R9 Adobe plug-in and a large number of profiles
> (some new ones too).  Oh yes, our prices are much lower as well !! (up to 35%
> off)
> 
> 
> 
> This Sundance ink is called Sundance Neutral Warm Quad inks and is available
> as a kit for a number of printers. (7000& 9000 available soon) The
> installation kit contents:
> 
> 
> -Sundance Adobe Photoshop Plug-in software.
> --includes drivers for EPSON 860, 980, 1160, 1200, 1280, 1290 and 3000 -ICQ
> Profiles for more than 30 popular papers as well as a general purpose profile
> for unsupported papers.
> -Instruction Manual for B&W printing on CD
> -1 set (1 black & 1 multiblack) cartridges for selected printer
> -1 set of cleaning cartridges
> -"Quad" Black Fine Art Multipack I - 8.5x11- Five Sheets each of the best
> papers for Quad Black Printing, Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 188, Hahnemuhle William
> Turner 190, Schoellershammer Velvet 225 & Hahnemuhle Allegretto 160."
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 
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> 
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Sundance Inks


> Yeap...is that weird or what...who would ever buy the old Cone inks when
you
> could buy MIS or Piezotone inks?  What was DAS thinking...are they not
aware
> of all the problems with this ink?
>

Robert,

In spite of all of the issues, I think that there are many who truly favor
the original Piezo hue. They will be glad to hear that there is another
source since I don't think we will be too surprised if ConeTech drops the
original inks from their product line.

Martin

yes, but the plug-in too???


Antonis



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:


They will be glad to hear that there is another

> source since I don't think we will be too surprised if ConeTech drops the
> original inks from their product line.
> 
> Martin

Antonis,

Well you are right that is strange. ConeTech has provided good tech support, so a person would be better off getting the ink/software from them. DAS seems like a good outfit but I don't see what they can bring to the table in the support area. Are Sundance and/or R9 going to provide tech support?

If they were selling the ink/plug-in starter kits at a major discount or better yet selling the plug-in without forcing you to buy ink, it might make sense. If they would offer the plug-in alone at something like $200 I think they could do a very brisk business!  They also say the R9 plug-in is the same software as Piezo but in checking out the site they say, "Photoshop 6.5+ or lower (Photoshop 7 is coming)" 6.5+? Did I miss something. The Piezo plugin works just fine with PS7 so how can they be the same software?

In any case I think we are seeing price reductions on the access to the Piezo or Piezo-type software. The entry price was $335 and is now down to $285. Maybe they will go lower or one of them will wise up an sell the software minus the ink. I think whoever does that first will get a big surge of cash. This is also putting pressure on ColorByte to get the desktop version of ImagePrint down to a similar price point or at least hurry up and deliver the MIS-VM support.

Interesting times. If anyone from DAS, Sundance or R9 are following the list, please feel free to give us some feedback. If you don't want to post directly, contact me off list.

Martin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Sundance Inks


> yes, but the plug-in too???
> 
> 
> Antonis
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> 
> They will be glad to hear that there is another
> > source since I don't think we will be too surprised if ConeTech drops the
> > original inks from their product line.
> > 
> > Martin
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all,

We have received a number of phone calls regarding questions this 
group had posted about DAS carrying the Sundance inks & R9 plug-in.  
We don't monitor these groups normally but I did think it appropriate 
to respond to these questions directly.

We are selling the plug-in separately from purchasing the ink.  The 
purchase price is $149.95.  Both R9 & DAS believe that using 
ImageExportBW with an inkset that has been calibrated (Sundance 
Neutral Warm Inks) produces results that are superior to other 
technologies currently available. However it can be used with other 
inksets;  please note that the ImageExportBW plugin will not perform 
to its maximum capability when used with unsupported inks or media.  
It also may not perform exactly as the user intended.

Regarding the Photoshop support, I apologize for the confusion.  
Photoshop 7.0 is supported but not under OS10 (yet) that is the 
version that is coming shortly.

There are many folks that do like the original inks, we are providing 
another avenue to bring them to the market.  For those interested a 
Sundance Cool Set will be introduced this summer, first in cartridges 
for the 1280.

We have been asked about upgrades to the R9 plug-in.  We will provide 
upgrades to our licensees at no cost.  If you have previously 
purchased the R9 plug-in, & want to upgrade, we ask that you purchase 
a new version.  After you have received your CD, return your original 
CD to us & you will a full $149.95 credit towards future purchases.

Feel free to email me directly with questions, I don't expect to 
monitor the board very often.

Karen
Karen@...

----- Original Message -----

From: "karene_digitalartsupplies" <karene_digitalartsupplies@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Sundance Inks


> Hello all,
>
> We have received a number of phone calls regarding questions this
> group had posted about DAS carrying the Sundance inks & R9 plug-in.
> We don't monitor these groups normally but I did think it appropriate
> to respond to these questions directly.
>
> We are selling the plug-in separately from purchasing the ink.  The
> purchase price is $149.95.

Karen,

Thank you for your feedback. Manufacturer and distributor input to this list
is most welcome.

A very big thank you for making the R9 plug-in available separately from the
inks and at an attractive price. As more inks sets have come on the market
designed to be compatible this workflow that is a very wonderful news. I
hope that this will put the technology in the hands of a broader range of
users.

> Both R9 & DAS believe that using
> ImageExportBW with an inkset that has been calibrated (Sundance
> Neutral Warm Inks) produces results that are superior to other
> technologies currently available. However it can be used with other
> inksets;  please note that the ImageExportBW plugin will not perform
> to its maximum capability when used with unsupported inks or media.
> It also may not perform exactly as the user intended.

This is a good point and one that people should keep in mind. I think that
other ink sets have worked well with the Piezo driver but some ink sets on
some papers are not always quite dead-on when you print a step wedge. I
noticed this when I printed with blends of the MIS-FS standard and neutral
tone inks.
>
> Regarding the Photoshop support, I apologize for the confusion.
> Photoshop 7.0 is supported but not under OS10 (yet) that is the
> version that is coming shortly.
>
> There are many folks that do like the original inks, we are providing
> another avenue to bring them to the market.  For those interested a
> Sundance Cool Set will be introduced this summer, first in cartridges
> for the 1280.

Another choice of inks is very welcome news. The more choices the better.

I wish you good luck and success with your venture into the quad ink
business.

Martin Wesley

Hi Martin

Would it be possible with this plug-in to use the VM inks if you profiled
the ink and paper combination?  I know the inks are different densities, but
couldn¹t that be controlled with a profile?

Bill
on 6/27/02 4:21 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> Karen,
> 
>> > Both R9 & DAS believe that using
>> > ImageExportBW with an inkset that has been calibrated (Sundance
>> > Neutral Warm Inks) produces results that are superior to other
>> > technologies currently available. However it can be used with other
>> > inksets;  please note that the ImageExportBW plugin will not perform
>> > to its maximum capability when used with unsupported inks or media.
>> > It also may not perform exactly as the user intended.
> 
> This is a good point and one that people should keep in mind. I think that
> other ink sets have worked well with the Piezo driver but some ink sets on
> some papers are not always quite dead-on when you print a step wedge. I
> noticed this when I printed with blends of the MIS-FS standard and neutral
> tone inks.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill,

I really don't know. The VM toners are a strong blue and a red-orange. I
have tried some prints with the Piezo drive and standard VM and they were
very blue. At least half way to cyanotype in intensity with strong
posterization. So any adjustments to the Piezo driver would be pretty
extreme. If the Piezo driver is a CMYK RIP then it could be done but the
Piezo driver and the R9 plug-in are black boxes at the moment, and the color
management scheme is an unknown.

What R9 or Conetech could do would be to offer profiles within their plug-in
to give a better match with other Piezo compatible ink sets on some of the
more popular papers. I would think this would be fairly straight forward and
could become a selling point for the company that wanted to pursue it.

In any case I think the preferred business model from an end user point of
view is a separation of the ink makers and the software vendors. ColorByte
seems to be in the best position to pursue this but VM support for the
desktop version of their RIP is still in development I gather. They will
have an up hill battle at $500 against a $150 plug-in even though the
ImagePrint RIP offers much more functionality. Perhaps they need to pursue a
grayscale only RIP at a lower price. Once they offer support for both VM and
Piezo family inks then even at $500 it may be good deal assuming you don't
have to buy a license for each printer you are using.

Having two printers, one with a MIS-VM and one with a Piezo compatible ink
set, and multiple drivers, still seems like the best way to go at the moment
if you can manage the cost and space requirements.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Morse" <willym@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Sundance Inks


Hi Martin

Would it be possible with this plug-in to use the VM inks if you profiled
the ink and paper combination?  I know the inks are different densities, but
couldn\ufffdt that be controlled with a profile?

Bill
on 6/27/02 4:21 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> Karen,
>
>> > Both R9 & DAS believe that using
>> > ImageExportBW with an inkset that has been calibrated (Sundance
>> > Neutral Warm Inks) produces results that are superior to other
>> > technologies currently available. However it can be used with other
>> > inksets;  please note that the ImageExportBW plugin will not perform
>> > to its maximum capability when used with unsupported inks or media.
>> > It also may not perform exactly as the user intended.
>
> This is a good point and one that people should keep in mind. I think that
> other ink sets have worked well with the Piezo driver but some ink sets on
> some papers are not always quite dead-on when you print a step wedge. I
> noticed this when I printed with blends of the MIS-FS standard and neutral
> tone inks.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:

> What R9 or Conetech could do would be to offer profiles within their plug-in
> to give a better match with other Piezo compatible ink sets on some of the
> more popular papers. I would think this would be fairly straight forward and
> could become a selling point for the company that wanted to pursue it.

Martin,

profiling papers for a given inkset is one thing but profiling inksets is another. I 
know we have all switched from old piezoBW inks to PiezoTones using the 
same profiles, but I suspect that we aren't getting all we can get from the new 
inkset.  To do that is more work than just a profile. You have to address how a 
new ink technology reacts with the papers.

Also, we still don't have a true hex-capable software. It's only quad at the 
driver level. And, while we are dreaming, we also don't have anything that 
accepts a CMYK file and keeps it that way - or, dare I say it, a 6 channel file, 
that  would give the user exact control over the inks - imagine that!!. For now, 
we have to feed a grayscale or, at best an RGB. The final separation is locked 
in those black boxes "for our benefit". 

Ah, the ink-soaked days of the Iris!....


> 
> In any case I think the preferred business model from an end user point of
> view is a separation of the ink makers and the software vendors. 

...and the paper makers. Part of what has held  development back is this 
bundling notion that the software is good only for the inks and papers that a 
given vendor sells. Epson, of course, being the prime example.


Antonis

Does anyone know if the Sundance inks are an exact copy of the 
Piezotone inks or the earlier versions of the Piezo ink?  And is 
the driver profiled for the new Piezotone (or new Sundance) 
inks?  

Thanks.

Andy





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "antonisphoto" <
antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> > What R9 or Conetech could do would be to offer profiles 
within their plug-in
> > to give a better match with other Piezo compatible ink sets on 
some of the
> > more popular papers. I would think this would be fairly 
straight forward and
> > could become a selling point for the company that wanted to 
pursue it.
> 
> Martin,
> 
> profiling papers for a given inkset is one thing but profiling 
inksets is another. I 
> know we have all switched from old piezoBW inks to 
PiezoTones using the 
> same profiles, but I suspect that we aren't getting all we can 
get from the new 
> inkset.  To do that is more work than just a profile. You have to 
address how a 
> new ink technology reacts with the papers.
> 
> Also, we still don't have a true hex-capable software. It's only 
quad at the 
> driver level. And, while we are dreaming, we also don't have 
anything that 
> accepts a CMYK file and keeps it that way - or, dare I say it, a 6 
channel file, 
> that  would give the user exact control over the inks - imagine 
that!!. For now, 
> we have to feed a grayscale or, at best an RGB. The final 
separation is locked 
> in those black boxes "for our benefit". 
> 
> Ah, the ink-soaked days of the Iris!....
> 
> 
> > 
> > In any case I think the preferred business model from an end 
user point of
> > view is a separation of the ink makers and the software 
vendors. 
> 
> ...and the paper makers. Part of what has held  development 
back is this 
> bundling notion that the software is good only for the inks and 
papers that a 
> given vendor sells. Epson, of course, being the prime 
example.

> 
> 
> Antonis

On 6/26/02 8:56 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Sundance Inks
> 
> 
>> Yeap...is that weird or what...who would ever buy the old Cone inks when
> you
>> could buy MIS or Piezotone inks?  What was DAS thinking...are they not
> aware
>> of all the problems with this ink?
>> 
> 
> Robert,
> 
> In spite of all of the issues, I think that there are many who truly favor
> the original Piezo hue. They will be glad to hear that there is another
> source since I don't think we will be too surprised if ConeTech drops the
> original inks from their product line.
> 
> Martin
> 
Right, Martin, but you know as well as I do...if you want the original
PiezoBW color you buy the MIS FS ink...at a fraction of the discounted price
and you don't get the clogging or the Hayes syndrome.  Sorry, I still don't
get it this inks should be dead in the water.

Now, having the plugin available separately is certainly a good, and
unexpected move.  

Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
...

> Right, Martin, but you know as well as I do...if you want the original
> PiezoBW color you buy the MIS FS ink
wrongo

...at a fraction of the discounted price
> and you don't get the clogging or the Hayes syndrome.
never had it, never seen it

...  Sorry, I still don't
> get it this inks should be dead in the water.
because some of us having been making prints we are absolutely thrilled with, since the day it came out, and never had a 
problem.
Yes I've seen all the alternatives.
Yes a lot of you that have had a LOT of problems that I'm very sorry about. But there are others.
Tyler

>> Right, Martin, but you know as well as I do...if you want the original
>> PiezoBW color you buy the MIS FS ink
> wrongo
ya, I agree, very different original color, tone, and of course there is
that fade and shift thing.

Carolyn

No. The Sundance inks are the old PiezographyBW inks under a new 
wrapper. The PiezoTone inks are the new ink and they supposedly fix 
the problems that the Sundance inks had such as the greenies, Hayes 
Syndromw, DSS and others. So far that appears to be very true. DAS is 
now selling the old system at a discount and as far as I can tell IJM 
is selling both but selling the new system at DAS prices.

I have been using the new PiezoTones and the ICQ media profiles work 
perfectly. In fact, the PiezoTones print with better clarity and have 
a much better tonal range than the Sundance inks. Shadow detail is 
superb. Almost like a slight fog has been lifted. 

PiezoTones do not look olive green in side by side with the 
Sundance inks. No wonder the old inks turned green. Sundance does 
appear to use some kind of green dye. PiezoTones claim to use pigment 
for color. Fade-wise the PiezoTones are rock solid after 6 weeks near 
sun. I had been using the sun to make the Sundance inks turn brown 
which takes only about a week, whereas it can take as much as 6 weeks 
in normal room lighting. I would rather have brown out of the printer 
than have to wait for it. I would like to see a PiezoTone set with a 
sort of warm-faded look but without the density loss straight out the 
printer. I am also beta testing the PiezoTone Seleniuims which work 
with the ICQ profiles the same way as the Warm Neutrals. I am 
surprised there has not been more chatter here about the PiezoTone 
Seleniums which are a new chapter in the quadbook.

Things are very good indeedy. Cone did set the bar up another notch. 
Can it get better??  MIS?? ColorByte??   regards, MDC



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "akivisuals" 
<akivisuals@y...> wrote:

> Does anyone know if the Sundance inks are an exact copy of the 
> Piezotone inks or the earlier versions of the Piezo ink?  And is 
> the driver profiled for the new Piezotone (or new Sundance) 
> inks?  
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Andy