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Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-01-29 by phlg@...

Just received some pints of Eboni v1.1 ( K ). My first tests give a very low Dmax compared to the old Eboni.

The tests are made on Canson Photo Rag. I have just printed the K ramp with QTR in calibration mode.


With the old Eboni, the better LAB L* value is around 15.5.

With the Eboni v1.1, the better LAB L* value is around 19.5.


The nozzles were ok, I purged the lines, made some tests on different printers, different lines and cartridges, but nothing to do.

I have also tried some dilutions with the same proportions I usually use, and the results are really lighter.


Do you think it's a bad blend ? Until now I never had this kind of problem.

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-01-30 by Paul Roark

I printed some Canson rag in October using an Epson 1400. The dmax ranged from 17.33 (Epson driver) to 16.21 (QTR). These were same day measures, dried with a hair drier. I expect they got higher overnight. While batches of ink do vary, and the dmax also varies depending on how dry or "cured" it is, a dmax of 19.5 seems very low. Assuming the print was dry, I'd say there is something wrong. You might want to contact MIS.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:26 PM, phlg@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Just received some pints of Eboni v1.1 ( K ). My first tests give a very low Dmax compared to the old Eboni.

The tests are made on Canson Photo Rag. I have just printed the K ramp with QTR in calibration mode.


With the old Eboni, the better LAB L* value is around 15.5.

With the Eboni v1.1, the better LAB L* value is around 19.5.


The nozzles were ok, I purged the lines, made some tests on different printers, different lines and cartridges, but nothing to do.

I have also tried some dilutions with the same proportions I usually use, and the results are really lighter.


Do you think it's a bad blend ? Until now I never had this kind of problem.


Re: [Digital BW] Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-01-30 by phlg@...

Thank Paul.

I will contact MIS.


I printed more ramps this morning, quickly dried at the same time. The differences are slightly lower my previous comparisons but still high, too high to match.


Below, the measures of the K ramps :



Canson Rag – Eboni v1.0 :


Gray LAB_L

0.00 97.58

5.00 70.90

10.00 55.17

15.00 44.32

20.00 36.43

25.00 30.58

30.00 26.84

35.00 23.14

40.00 20.29

45.00 19.22

50.00 18.17

55.00 17.43

60.00 16.97

65.00 16.49

70.00 16.36

75.00 16.16

80.00 15.99

85.00 15.92

90.00 16.01

95.00 16.05

100.00 15.97




Canson Rag – Eboni v1.1 :


Gray LAB_L

0.00 97.79

5.00 76.24

10.00 63.31

15.00 53.82

20.00 46.38

25.00 40.53

30.00 36.35

35.00 31.95

40.00 28.47

45.00 26.52

50.00 24.02

55.00 22.67

60.00 21.29

65.00 20.05

70.00 19.56

75.00 18.95

80.00 18.55

85.00 18.32

90.00 18.30

95.00 18.37

100.00 18.18




Epson HPN – Eboni v1.0


Gray LAB_L

0.00 96.91

5.00 61.49

10.00 45.45

15.00 35.39

20.00 28.43

25.00 24.26

30.00 20.30

35.00 17.53

40.00 15.61

45.00 14.82

50.00 13.99

55.00 13.60

60.00 13.27

65.00 13.18

70.00 13.14

75.00 13.31

80.00 13.32

85.00 13.43

90.00 13.61

95.00 13.88

100.00 13.96



Epson HPN – Eboni v1.1


Gray LAB_L

0.00 96.97

5.00 67.17

10.00 52.20

15.00 41.57

20.00 34.90

25.00 30.05

30.00 27.60

35.00 23.36

40.00 21.12

45.00 19.84

50.00 18.61

55.00 17.50

60.00 17.03

65.00 16.31

70.00 16.28

75.00 15.74

80.00 15.42

85.00 15.18

90.00 15.35

95.00 15.21

100.00 14.92




Re: [Digital BW] Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-01-30 by Paul Roark

For another data point, Eboni (original) on Canson Rag produced a dmax of 16.31 on a test I found, the same as the v. 1.1. These were both with the 1400.

What printer are you using?

I looked at a few tests of Epson Hot Press with the 1400 and found the following Lab L numbers for the 100% black: 13.83 - 13.9 (original Eboni), 14.3 (Eb. v.1.1).

My original impression of Eboni v.1.1 was that it actually produced a slightly better dmax than the original on at least some of the papers I often use. The above tests don't show that, but they do indicate that the results in terms of dmax ought to be close. The major difference I noticed was that the dilute v.1.1 produced a distinctly warmer image than the original on Epson Hot Press.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


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On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 11:12 PM, Paul Roark <roark.paul@gmail.com> wrote:
I printed some Canson rag in October using an Epson 1400. The dmax ranged from 17.33 (Epson driver) to 16.21 (QTR). These were same day measures, dried with a hair drier. I expect they got higher overnight. While batches of ink do vary, and the dmax also varies depending on how dry or "cured" it is, a dmax of 19.5 seems very low. Assuming the print was dry, I'd say there is something wrong. You might want to contact MIS.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:26 PM, phlg@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Just received some pints of Eboni v1.1 ( K ). My first tests give a very low Dmax compared to the old Eboni.

The tests are made on Canson Photo Rag. I have just printed the K ramp with QTR in calibration mode.


With the old Eboni, the better LAB L* value is around 15.5.

With the Eboni v1.1, the better LAB L* value is around 19.5.


The nozzles were ok, I purged the lines, made some tests on different printers, different lines and cartridges, but nothing to do.

I have also tried some dilutions with the same proportions I usually use, and the results are really lighter.


Do you think it's a bad blend ? Until now I never had this kind of problem.



Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-01-30 by phlg@...

Yes, your values are sufficiently close to keep consistent results from a batch to another without huge adjustments.


On the K ramp, the LAB B values I obtain with v1.1 are equally more high than original Eboni, but it's really slight. Nearly similar on Canson Rag (on average : +0.2), a little more noticeable on HPN (+0.5).


The prints are made on a 3800.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-01-30 by Paul Roark

When I mention increase in Lab B, it's for the full, diluted Eb6 type inkset, not just the 100% K or Black Only ramp. 100% K or BO ramp variances are too close to the noise/maximum accuracy of the spectros we use to do an valid comparison of 100% K reads done with different units.

However, a fully diluted Eb6 inkset printed on a Epson Hot Press natural from your 3800 should produce ramps that, even if not identical numbers, will be quite congruent if similar printers are used. My 7800 and 9800 should be close enough to your 3880 for this purpose. A comparison of those results might tell us if we have the same ink or not. Both of my current "Eb6" type inksets/printers used the Eb. v. 1.1 (actual STS sourced) starting inks. I dilute my own with C6b. That and the MIS dilution base look the same. If you provide the full LAB numbers for your dilute "Eb6" type inkset, I'll see what I have that is close. Specify the full settings on the driver or QTR. I always use the highest quality possible.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

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On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 9:40 AM, phlg@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Yes, your values are sufficiently close to keep consistent results from a batch to another without huge adjustments.


On the K ramp, the LAB B values I obtain with v1.1 are equally more high than original Eboni, but it's really slight. Nearly similar on Canson Rag (on average : +0.2), a little more noticeable on HPN (+0.5).


The prints are made on a 3800.


Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-01-30 by Michael Nagle

HI Paul;

I am wondering if you could recommend a curriculum of study for a bewildered B/W printing student??

Thanks,

Michael Nagle
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On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Paul Roark roark.paul@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I mention increase in Lab B, it's for the full, diluted Eb6 type inkset, not just the 100% K or Black Only ramp. 100% K or BO ramp variances are too close to the noise/maximum accuracy of the spectros we use to do an valid comparison of 100% K reads done with different units.

However, a fully diluted Eb6 inkset printed on a Epson Hot Press natural from your 3800 should produce ramps that, even if not identical numbers, will be quite congruent if similar printers are used. My 7800 and 9800 should be close enough to your 3880 for this purpose. A comparison of those results might tell us if we have the same ink or not. Both of my current "Eb6" type inksets/printers used the Eb. v. 1.1 (actual STS sourced) starting inks. I dilute my own with C6b. That and the MIS dilution base look the same. If you provide the full LAB numbers for your dilute "Eb6" type inkset, I'll see what I have that is close. Specify the full settings on the driver or QTR. I always use the highest quality possible.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 9:40 AM, phlg@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Yes, your values are sufficiently close to keep consistent results from a batch to another without huge adjustments.


On the K ramp, the LAB B values I obtain with v1.1 are equally more high than original Eboni, but it's really slight. Nearly similar on Canson Rag (on average : +0.2), a little more noticeable on HPN (+0.5).


The prints are made on a 3800.



Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-01-31 by phlg@...

If I make the print on a R1900, with 5 shades of gray, it's ok? To fill the cartridge on the 3800 would use a lot of ink.

I usually use another diluent, my last tests with c6b didn't work well. But I will retry, I still have some c6b.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-01-31 by Paul Roark

If you have a 1900 you can use to test one dilution of the "Eboni" you purchases, that might be enough to see a difference. The 1900 should print much like the 1400, for which I have data.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 6:40 AM, phlg@ymail.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

If I make the print on a R1900, with 5 shades of gray, it's ok? To fill the cartridge on the 3800 would use a lot of ink.

I usually use another diluent, my last tests with c6b didn't work well. But I will retry, I still have some c6b.


Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-01 by brian_downunda@...

I can tell you that the the 1430 and 1900 are quite different. I tried using Piezography K6 curves from the 1430 in the 1900 and they were way too light. Piezography curves, both K7 and P2 (K6) from the x880 printers work just fine in the 1900 (and 2000), once you reorder the contents of the .quad files to reflect the order of the ink shades in the 1900. So the head technology in the 1900 is quite different to the 1430 but identical to the K3 printers. If that's true for the 1430, then I suspect that it's also true for the older 1400/1410 models as well.


---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <roark.paul@...> wrote :

The 1900 should print much like the 1400, for which I have data.


Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-01 by phlg@...

Brian, on my side, when using the same curve, the R1900 produces lighter result than the 3800. The LAB L values given previously came from the 3800. I have just printed the same ramp with the R1900 on Epson HPN, and the better Dmax is now at 16.02. But 14.92 on the 3800.

Paul, you will find the files here . There is 2 shades, one 100% Eboni v1.1, the other diluted with c6b, 30% Eboni v1.1. All targets printed at 2880dpi, unidirectional. The separation parameters for the linear target are in the screenshot.

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-01 by forums@walkerblackwell.com

Yes. 1430 is a 300 dollar printer . . . head tech is very different than the R1900, so curves (either direct Piezo .quads or descriptors, etc.) must reflect that different dot size in the K.

best,
-Walker
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> On Feb 1, 2016, at 4:34 AM, brian_downunda@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I can tell you that the the 1430 and 1900 are quite different.  I tried using Piezography K6 curves from the 1430 in the 1900 and they were way too light.  Piezography curves, both K7 and P2 (K6)  from the x880 printers work just fine in the 1900 (and 2000), once you reorder the contents of the .quad files to reflect the order of the ink shades in the 1900.  So the head technology in the 1900 is quite different to the 1430 but identical to the K3 printers.  If that's true for the 1430, then I suspect that it's also true for the older 1400/1410 models as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>, <roark.paul@...> wrote :
> 
> The 1900 should print much like the 1400, for which I have data.
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-01 by Paul Roark

The 1400 and 1900 both use 1.5 pl droplet min. size, but they may well print differently.

I've posted the LAB results for 30% K Eboni in the 1400 and 7800 on Epson Hot Press Natural. These are from the 100% Calibration mode prints done with early STS batches of the wj1082, which is the Eboni input. These would be Eboni v. 1.1. I included in the materials the data sent in the link noted above in this thread.

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Comparison-30pcEb-1400-v7800-v-plhg-K30-EHPn.pdf

The 1400 v. 7800 show the differences between printer types. The data in the above link is different than either. Note the Lab B numbers. The paper does not look the same either.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

p
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On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 11:32 AM, 'forums@...' forums@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Yes. 1430 is a 300 dollar printer . . . head tech is very different than the R1900, so curves (either direct Piezo .quads or descriptors, etc.) must reflect that different dot size in the K.


best,
-Walker

On Feb 1, 2016, at 4:34 AM, brian_downunda@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I can tell you that the the 1430 and 1900 are quite different. I tried using Piezography K6 curves from the 1430 in the 1900 and they were way too light. Piezography curves, both K7 and P2 (K6) from the x880 printers work just fine in the 1900 (and 2000), once you reorder the contents of the .quad files to reflect the order of the ink shades in the 1900. So the head technology in the 1900 is quite different to the 1430 but identical to the K3 printers. If that's true for the 1430, then I suspect that it';s also true for the older 1400/1410 models as well.



---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

The 1900 should print much like the 1400, for which I have data.





Re: [Digital BW] Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-01 by phlg@...

The LAB B numbers for the pure white patches on your paper are really cold for the Epson Hot Press. It's strange.

Otherwise, about the left column on the first page, is there not an inversion between the 100 % K Eboni and the 30% K Eboni ? The numbers look like the 100% K Eboni.

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-01 by Will Harvey

Just a thought, maybe the wrong side of the paper

Cheers

From "Le Nid Cachè" Mas de Cazes
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> On 01 Feb 2016, at 22:30, phlg@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> The LAB B numbers for the pure white patches on your paper are really cold for the Epson Hot Press. It's strange.
> 
> Otherwise, about the left column on the first page, is there not an inversion between the 100 % K Eboni and the 30% K Eboni ? The numbers look like the 100% K Eboni.
> 
>

Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-01 by phlg@...

Will,Epson claims the Hot Press Natural is coated on both sides, so there is no wrong side, even if they are slightly differents. But good idea to check the other side, I always print on the smoothest.

Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-01 by brian_downunda@...


I am a little surprised by that. Certainly not my experience with Piezography, and I'd have thought that the same principle would apply to Eboni. It may reflect differences in the linearity between those two particular printers. For Piezography you have to edit the 38x0 quad files so that the ink shades are listed in the correct sequence in order to be able to use them in the 1900. If you're using the 3800 curve on the 1900 (if I understand you correctly) then I assume you've done something similar, because if the inks where in the wrong order you'd presumably be getting some pretty wild results.

Re droplet size, I don't think that's a reliable guide. The 14x0 and the 1900/2000 both have 1.5 minimum droplet sizes, the 2880 has 3.0, the 3000 has 2.0 and the 38x0 has 3.5. On that basis you'd be able to share curves between the 1430 and 1900 but nothing else, whereas the exact opposite is the case. Perhaps more relevant is the number of nozzles, with the 14x0 having 90 per channel and everything else has 180. And the 1430 was designed as a dye printer, so you'd expect some difference to the pigment printers.


---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <phlg@...> wrote :

Brian, on my side, when using the same curve, the R1900 produces lighter result than the 3800. The LAB L values given previously came from the 3800. I have just printed the same ramp with the R1900 on Epson HPN, and the better Dmax is now at 16.02. But 14.92 on the 3800.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-02 by Paul Roark

The backside of my Epson HPn has about the same Lab B as the front. They do say to print on only one side, however. Back-side coatings are to control curl.

The less expensive spectros are not very accurate when it comes to the Lab A & B. What I've found works best with my Spyder is to first Calibrate it, then immediately measure any random mid - Lab L paper (like an orange post-it on my desk), then immediately calibrate it again. In short, I think the unit responds to being warmed up a bit. Then before I make a read of a 21-step, I again read the post-it a few times, then enter the "Export to" info and do the 21-step read. I'm getting much more consistent results this way.

Also, of course, the calibration tile needs to be cleaned occasionally, and the end of the spectro needs to have the rubbed off carbon from the read rubbed off on a paper (like the margin of the paper just read) every time. Otherwise some of it is going to be transferred to the calibration tile.

When I look at the graphs, it makes the most sense to draw (mentally) a straight line between the paper white and the 100% black. The extent to which the Lab B varies from this straight line is a more accurate way to compare relative warmth than to just look at the absolute numbers.

The companies involved have been alerted to the issue. I would expect a few days of their exploring their ends might be needed.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


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On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 2:11 PM, phlg@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Will,Epson claims the Hot Press Natural is coated on both sides, so there is no wrong side, even if they are slightly differents. But good idea to check the other side, I always print on the smoothest.


Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-02 by phlg@...

Thanks Paul, MIS also sent me an email, I will wait their results.


Brian, mon anglais doit être assez indigeste, but yes you understand correctly, it's the same curve used for both printers, assigned to the respective channels.


For what I see, the droplet size essentially affect the fineness of the print, and the number of nozzles only the speed printing. But it's certainly more complex than that.

Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-02 by brian_downunda@...

I'm not saying that the droplet size / number of nozzles has no impact on the print. But from a range of tests I've made, it's possible to reuse QTR (Piezography) curves across printers with different droplet sizes. Indeed across pretty much all the recent K3 and (with edited quad files) hi-gloss printers, but not the 1430 which is in a category of its own. However different printers will exhibit different linearity, and a reused curve will often need to be relinearised.

Your English far exceeds my modest French. I always admire people who can participate in discussions like this in a second language.


---In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <phlg@...> wrote :

Brian, mon anglais doit être assez indigeste, but yes you understand correctly, it's the same curve used for both printers, assigned to the respective channels.


For what I see, the droplet size essentially affect the fineness of the print, and the number of nozzles only the speed printing. But it's certainly more complex than that.

Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-02-25 by phlg@...

More than 3 weeks later, no reply from MIS yet, despite the fact they said me they would have more informations in a day or so. I tried to contact them several times, without any success, not a word, nothing.


To conclude, whether MIS doesn't reply because the Eboni V1.1 have a weak Dmax and they consider it's not a problem, or this weak Dmax is a problem and they don't provide any support.


In both cases it's really boring.


Or may be they gone in holidays.

Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-03-04 by phlg@...

I sent a few more emails to MIS, but they don't reply. It's clear they don't care.


So bad, Eboni works very well when the batches are good. Hard to works with a company that refuses to communicate. Fall on a faulty product happens time to time, issues are fixed more or flawlessly, but here nothing is done.


I will probably switch back to another source for carbon inks, a reliable one.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni v1.1 - Dmax - Problem

2016-03-04 by Paul Roark

I have asked MIS about this and not yet heard back. I always do get responses from them. I assume they are looking into the issue and will respond when they determine from their end what is going on.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 5:46 AM, phlg@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I sent a few more emails to MIS, but they don't reply. It's clear they don't care.


So bad, Eboni works very well when the batches are good. Hard to works with a company that refuses to communicate. Fall on a faulty product happens time to time, issues are fixed more or flawlessly, but here nothing is done.


I will probably switch back to another source for carbon inks, a reliable one.


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