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More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-11 by Paul

As I matter of principle, I would like to be able to make a 100% carbon pigment print on Arches watercolor paper (and others) that is visually neutral.  I appreciate warm prints also.  However, I do like neutral prints for many situations, and it's a challenge to make a "neutral" print with only carbon pigments.

So, the latest effort has been to explore Black Only on the 7800.  Eboni black only on that printer (as with all 3.5 pl printers, I assume) makes a print on Arches where the Lab B (main measure of warmth) is dead flat from the (creamy natural) paper base white to the midtones, where it then heads down to an actual slight negative Lab B at 100%.

But, black only printing is too rough for me to use in almost any situation.

However, blending the Black Only profile with an Eboni-6 profile with the QTR sliders makes a print that is visually quite neutral, with a maximum Lab B rise of 1.0.  

A 50:50 mix of Eboni BO with Eb6 is, of course, not going to be as smooth as the straight Eboni-6 print, but it's good enough for many prints, particularly at display print size.  At arm's length in my normal office light (not quite gallery bright) most could not tell the difference in smoothness between Arches test strips made with the 50:50 blend and the straight Eboni-6 profile.

Cool.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by Louis de Stoutz

Cool indeed! Does that also have to do with the droplet-size? Would it 
thus work better on a 2100 than a 1400? (Still looking for an occupation 
for my still unused 2100...)

Louis
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 11/08/2013 05:13, Paul wrote:
> As I matter of principle, I would like to be able to make a 100% carbon pigment print on Arches watercolor paper (and others) that is visually neutral.  I appreciate warm prints also.  However, I do like neutral prints for many situations, and it's a challenge to make a "neutral" print with only carbon pigments.
>
> So, the latest effort has been to explore Black Only on the 7800.  Eboni black only on that printer (as with all 3.5 pl printers, I assume) makes a print on Arches where the Lab B (main measure of warmth) is dead flat from the (creamy natural) paper base white to the midtones, where it then heads down to an actual slight negative Lab B at 100%.
>
> But, black only printing is too rough for me to use in almost any situation.
>
> However, blending the Black Only profile with an Eboni-6 profile with the QTR sliders makes a print that is visually quite neutral, with a maximum Lab B rise of 1.0.
>
> A 50:50 mix of Eboni BO with Eb6 is, of course, not going to be as smooth as the straight Eboni-6 print, but it's good enough for many prints, particularly at display print size.  At arm's length in my normal office light (not quite gallery bright) most could not tell the difference in smoothness between Arches test strips made with the 50:50 blend and the straight Eboni-6 profile.
>
> Cool.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
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Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by David Kachel

On 8/14/13 5:48 AM, "Louis de Stoutz" <loudest@...> wrote:

>As I matter of principle, I would like to be able to make a 100% carbon
>pigment print on Arches watercolor paper (and others) that is visually
>neutral.  I appreciate warm prints also.  However, I do like neutral
>prints for many situations, and it's a challenge to make a "neutral"
>print with only carbon pigments.


Let me play devil's advocate here and see if we can't stir the pot a bitŠ


Before digital (BD), NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, was after a "neutral"
print!

Even when using warm tone papers, silver gelatin prints came out green. A
sickly, nasty, repugnant, unacceptable, greeeeen!!!

Never, EVER, "neutral".

Photographers could hardly wait to get those nasty looking green prints
into a toning bath, usually selenium (for a "cool purple sepia" color), in
order to make that green color go away before the photographer threw up.

The goal was either selenium purple or one of hundreds of flavors of
brown/sepia. I don't recall anyone ever seeking "neutral".

So my question is: when and how did "neutral" become the holy grail of B&W
fine art photography?

Just to stir the pot a little moreŠ

I challenge everyone to make three prints of the same image;

One "neutral", one selenium and one brown/sepia. Make all three as
pleasing to yourself as you can.

Then I dare you to tell me you genuinely like the "neutral" print best!

And if by chance you DO like the neutral print best, why weren't you after
that tone when you were printing silver?

If you never printed silver, go away sonny, you bother me!   ;-)



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@davidkachel.com

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@reddoorfinephotographs.com

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by Mark Savoia

I assume the green silver prints you remember were on Kodak papers only? Agfa and Ilford had some pretty "neutral gray" tones before any toning. It also mattered on what developers you were using. We still print silver here for clients and the only real reason for doing a slight selenium toning is for archival reasons, not to get the print to be more "neutral".

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Aug 14, 2013, at 10:41 AM, David Kachel wrote:
> 
> 
> Let me play devil's advocate here and see if we can't stir the pot a bit�
> 
> 
> Before digital (BD), NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, was after a "neutral"
> print!
> 
> Even when using warm tone papers, silver gelatin prints came out green. A
> sickly, nasty, repugnant, unacceptable, greeeeen!!!
> 
> Never, EVER, "neutral".
> 
> Photographers could hardly wait to get those nasty looking green prints
> into a toning bath, usually selenium (for a "cool purple sepia" color), in
> order to make that green color go away before the photographer threw up.
> 
> The goal was either selenium purple or one of hundreds of flavors of
> brown/sepia. I don't recall anyone ever seeking "neutral".
> 
> So my question is: when and how did "neutral" become the holy grail of B&W
> fine art photography?
> 
> Just to stir the pot a little more�
> 
> I challenge everyone to make three prints of the same image;
> 
> One "neutral", one selenium and one brown/sepia. Make all three as
> pleasing to yourself as you can.
> 
> Then I dare you to tell me you genuinely like the "neutral" print best!
> 
> And if by chance you DO like the neutral print best, why weren't you after
> that tone when you were printing silver?
> 
> If you never printed silver, go away sonny, you bother me!   ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> David Kachel
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by nospam

Please count me as NO ONE then. The NO ONE who has always sought after a
neutral print. 

 

Scott

 

Scott Hendershot

scott@...

www.scotthendershot.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 10:41 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

 

  



On 8/14/13 5:48 AM, "Louis de Stoutz" <loudest@...
<mailto:loudest%40attglobal.net> > wrote:

>As I matter of principle, I would like to be able to make a 100% carbon
>pigment print on Arches watercolor paper (and others) that is visually
>neutral. I appreciate warm prints also. However, I do like neutral
>prints for many situations, and it's a challenge to make a "neutral"
>print with only carbon pigments.

Let me play devil's advocate here and see if we can't stir the pot a bit�

Before digital (BD), NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, was after a "neutral"
print!

Even when using warm tone papers, silver gelatin prints came out green. A
sickly, nasty, repugnant, unacceptable, greeeeen!!!

Never, EVER, "neutral".

Photographers could hardly wait to get those nasty looking green prints
into a toning bath, usually selenium (for a "cool purple sepia" color), in
order to make that green color go away before the photographer threw up.

The goal was either selenium purple or one of hundreds of flavors of
brown/sepia. I don't recall anyone ever seeking "neutral".

So my question is: when and how did "neutral" become the holy grail of B&W
fine art photography?

Just to stir the pot a little more�

I challenge everyone to make three prints of the same image;

One "neutral", one selenium and one brown/sepia. Make all three as
pleasing to yourself as you can.

Then I dare you to tell me you genuinely like the "neutral" print best!

And if by chance you DO like the neutral print best, why weren't you after
that tone when you were printing silver?

If you never printed silver, go away sonny, you bother me! ;-)

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@... <mailto:david%40davidkachel.com> 

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@reddoorfinephotographs.com
<mailto:director%40reddoorfinephotographs.com> 

PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by Paul Roark

Louis de Stoutz <loudest@...> wrote:

> Cool indeed! Does that also have to do with the droplet-size? Would it
> thus work better on a 2100 than a 1400? (Still looking for an occupation
> for my still unused 2100...)
>
>
100% Eboni is rather neutral on the 1400 also, but the dilute inks are
warmer there.  I don't know if I have data anymore (backup didn't restore
Spyder data) that shows the net result of 50:50 Eb6:BO on the different
printers, but my feeling is that the 3.5 pl drop version ends up more
neutral.  There is probably a more noticeable graininess in the 3.5 pl
models, but at arm's length and in an actual display print, I doubt anyone
would notice on Arches.

By the way,  I'm using a 1/3 Eb6,1/3 HP, 1/3 BO profile combination a lot
for a totally flat Lab B (level from paper white through 50%, then cooler)
even more neutral looking print.  I've put some graphs on page 10 of
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHP-2013.pdf that shows the Lab B
values.  With what I call the "333" approach (33.3% of Eb6, HP, and BO
profiles) the carbon content of the print is probably over 80%.  The Eboni
profiles are 100%, and even the HP profile has the Eb K as well as HP
neutrals probably being 50% carbon.  Given the very stable HP gray
performance (very little green shift -- 0.1 Lab A reduction for 50% gray
patch at 200 Mlux-hrs [see http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ HP on HPR
Pearl test]), I have a very high confidence in the print longevity with
this approach.  I would imagine the Epson HPn paper will fail before the
image changes noticeably.  I'm using this approach with Epson HPn for the
predominantly carbon prints in my upcoming Sept. Gallery Los Olivos show (
http://www.gallerylosolivos.com/Roark.html).  (Most of the show will be the
glossy dyes on metallic paper.  But I'll have samples of the more serious,
higher end fine art there also.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by Paul Roark

David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

> **
>  ...
> Before digital (BD), NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, was after a "neutral"
> print! ...
>

I agree, within limits.  I preferred and used mostly lightly selenium toned
Kodak Polymax paper.  The net result was what I'd call visually neutral.
 The Lab B was rather flat through the 50% point and then the shadows got
cooler -- just like the "333" profile combination I just described.  The
light selenium took care of most of the green.

From what I can tell, we see a Lab A = 1 as more neutral than Lab a = 0.
 I'm not sure how accurate our spectros are down that low, but most of the
papers seem to target a slightly elevated Lab A.

My approach to "visually neutral" also assumes that the print is displayed
matted and on the wall.  In that display environment, the eye is going to
do a white balance on the mat board or other bright "white" surface near
the print.  This white balance really affects how we perceive the print
tone.  When viewed next to a very cold monitor or typing paper, all our
prints look brown.



> ...
> The goal was either selenium purple or one of hundreds of flavors of
> brown/sepia. I don't recall anyone ever seeking "neutral".
>
> So my question is: when and how did "neutral" become the holy grail of B&W
> fine art photography?
>

I think many of us in the "western landscape" tradition like what has often
been referred to as "cool" prints.  As you note, they are not cool or even
dead neutral, but compared to the older sepia prints, they were downright
cold.  When clouds and snow are significant features of a print, yellow is
not what  lot like to see.  Ansel Adams' prints were often described as
"cool."

What those of us here have been fighting is that carbon is usually warmer
than we'd like, but the third party color inks needed to cool them were not
well matched in their fade rates (and often just plain weak).  Also, to
challenge the silver print and its assumed longevity, we needed the highest
carbon content possible.

Outside of the "western landscape" genre, I suspect a medium warm is the
preferred print tone.  The sepia tone that you prefer is not what most
landscape photographers target.

(Where is Jerry Olson when we need him?)  (For the newer members, he liked
cold - very cold - about as much as David likes brown.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by jcphoto52

That neutral "thread" is interesting! I bought a 1430 and EB6 inks to be able to print nearly like I did in my darkroom; aside from "neutra", I tried to print some negs (using EB6 and Polar Matte) from another photographer and at the end. he liked some much the "tint" of the print that he threw away his 11x14 prints made in is darkroom!

For me , pure neutral is maybe a goal to achieve but, very near and pleasing tones are perfect for me.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 100% Eboni is rather neutral on the 1400 also, but the dilute inks are
> warmer there.  I don't know if I have data anymore (backup didn't restore
> Spyder data) that shows the net result of 50:50 Eb6:BO on the different
> printers, but my feeling is that the 3.5 pl drop version ends up more
> neutral.  There is probably a more noticeable graininess in the 3.5 pl
> models, but at arm's length and in an actual display print, I doubt anyone
> would notice on Arches.

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by David Kachel

On 8/14/13 9:52 AM, "Mark Savoia" <mark@...> wrote:

>I assume the green silver prints you remember were on Kodak papers only?
>Agfa and Ilford had some pretty "neutral gray" tones before any toning.
>It also mattered on what developers you were using. We still print silver
>here for clients and the only real reason for doing a slight selenium
>toning is for archival reasons, not to get the print to be more "neutral".

I printed on virtually every paper that existed during the 80's and 90's.
Kodak, Ilford, Afga, Seagull, several of the Eastern European papers
foisted on a gullible public as "quality B&W papers", and a sea of papers
for which I have forgotten the names. There was never any such thing as a
neutral paper. Just some that were less green. As a side note, ALL B&W
photographic materials are/were green, film included.

Mark, if you are making untoned silver prints for clients, you are doing
them a disservice. Untoned silver prints are substantially less permanent
than toned prints. No silver print should ever be hung on a gallery wall
or sold to a client as art, without toning. Even a visually undetectable
selenium toning provides adequate protection. (Try a 1:20 dilution for a
minute or so.)

Also, you may think you are making neutral, untoned silver prints for your
clients, but I promise you, they are green!

Initially, selenium toning was not applied for the primary purpose of
making prints more neutral. It was applied to get rid of the green and add
a little purple and then to make the prints more permanent (though the
latter wasn't known initially).

If you are really convinced you are making non-green silver prints for
clients, try this experiment: make two identical prints, both at the same
time, both through the same process, both never dried, both straight from
the second fixing bath. Place one in a tray of water, the other in a 1:10
selenium bath (make sure the trays are identical, preferably white),
agitate constantly. Watch both under the same STRONG light. Keep looking
back and forth between them (this is the standard method for selenium
toning anyway, because changes are generally subtle and watching an
untoned print is the only way to see the change). Don't worry about how
purple the selenium print gets, just keep watching the other print and
comparing. Eventually, you will see the green. It was plainly there to see
without all this effort in the first place, but our visual cortex(s) fool
us. The selenium trick shocks one's vision into seeing what one is
generally not inclined to see. It's just like walking into a room full of
fluorescent lights from outdoors. The mind doesn't let you see the
overwhelming green color of the fluorescents, but it is there nonetheless,
and far. Far stronger than the green in an untoned B&W print.

One last note. Silver gelatin B&W prints tend to have weak blacks, despite
high dMax (Personally, I do not worship at the altar of dMax). Selenium
toning dramatically improves the look of silver-gelatin blacks and
therefore is indispensable for this additional reason. The only valid
reason for a fine art silver print NOT to be toned in selenium is because
some other toner was used instead.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by pdesmidt tds.net

Mr. Kachel said: "Even a visually undetectable
selenium toning provides adequate protection. (Try a 1:20 dilution for a
minute or so.)"

I know this is off topic, but the composition of selenium toner changed.
Tests at RIT's Image Permanence Institute showed that selenium toner no
longer gives the same protection that it used to. Google "Doug Nishimura
Selenium Toning."


On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:41 AM, David Kachel <david@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> On 8/14/13 9:52 AM, "Mark Savoia" <mark@stillrivereditions.com> wrote:
>
> >I assume the green silver prints you remember were on Kodak papers only?
> >Agfa and Ilford had some pretty "neutral gray" tones before any toning.
> >It also mattered on what developers you were using. We still print silver
> >here for clients and the only real reason for doing a slight selenium
> >toning is for archival reasons, not to get the print to be more "neutral".
>
> I printed on virtually every paper that existed during the 80's and 90's.
> Kodak, Ilford, Afga, Seagull, several of the Eastern European papers
> foisted on a gullible public as "quality B&W papers", and a sea of papers
> for which I have forgotten the names. There was never any such thing as a
> neutral paper. Just some that were less green. As a side note, ALL B&W
> photographic materials are/were green, film included.
>
> Mark, if you are making untoned silver prints for clients, you are doing
> them a disservice. Untoned silver prints are substantially less permanent
> than toned prints. No silver print should ever be hung on a gallery wall
> or sold to a client as art, without toning. Even a visually undetectable
> selenium toning provides adequate protection. (Try a 1:20 dilution for a
> minute or so.)
>
> Also, you may think you are making neutral, untoned silver prints for your
> clients, but I promise you, they are green!
>
> Initially, selenium toning was not applied for the primary purpose of
> making prints more neutral. It was applied to get rid of the green and add
> a little purple and then to make the prints more permanent (though the
> latter wasn't known initially).
>
> If you are really convinced you are making non-green silver prints for
> clients, try this experiment: make two identical prints, both at the same
> time, both through the same process, both never dried, both straight from
> the second fixing bath. Place one in a tray of water, the other in a 1:10
> selenium bath (make sure the trays are identical, preferably white),
> agitate constantly. Watch both under the same STRONG light. Keep looking
> back and forth between them (this is the standard method for selenium
> toning anyway, because changes are generally subtle and watching an
> untoned print is the only way to see the change). Don't worry about how
> purple the selenium print gets, just keep watching the other print and
> comparing. Eventually, you will see the green. It was plainly there to see
> without all this effort in the first place, but our visual cortex(s) fool
> us. The selenium trick shocks one's vision into seeing what one is
> generally not inclined to see. It's just like walking into a room full of
> fluorescent lights from outdoors. The mind doesn't let you see the
> overwhelming green color of the fluorescents, but it is there nonetheless,
> and far. Far stronger than the green in an untoned B&W print.
>
> One last note. Silver gelatin B&W prints tend to have weak blacks, despite
> high dMax (Personally, I do not worship at the altar of dMax). Selenium
> toning dramatically improves the look of silver-gelatin blacks and
> therefore is indispensable for this additional reason. The only valid
> reason for a fine art silver print NOT to be toned in selenium is because
> some other toner was used instead.
>
>
> David Kachel
>
> ___________________
>
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
>
> www.davidkachel.com
> david@...
>
> Gallery:
> www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
> director@...
>
>
> PO Box 1893
> Alpine, TX 79831
> (432) 386-5787
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by David Kachel

From:  Paul Roark
Ansel Adams' prints were often described as
"cool."

And yet, he himself described them as "purple sepia". I think the "cool"
moniker was helped by the fact that supposedly neutral (actually green) B&W
prints used for comparison made the selenium prints look more "cool" than
they really were.


What those of us here have been fighting is that carbon is usually warmer
than we'd like, but the third party color inks needed to cool them were not
well matched in their fade rates (and often just plain weak). Also, to
challenge the silver print and its assumed longevity, we needed the highest
carbon content possible.

I find this topic fascinating. I also don't understand why Epson hasn't
really bothered to consult B&W fine art photographers, at least not the
right ones. It would be so easy for them to make a full 100% carbon ink set,
with optional color toners, and sell a printer with that setup. B&W fine art
photographers went from hundreds of years longevity (silver) to dozens of
years (pigment color inks), virtually overnight. And Epson doesn't appear to
have a clue why they/we are upset. Color photographers got the best deal.
They got a doubling of longevity, instead of a quartering.

For me, the warmer carbon is a plus, not a minus. But I understand how
others would not be after that. I must admit also, that I really liked the
look of that first black only, Ebony print to drop out of my 1400.


Outside of the "western landscape" genre, I suspect a medium warm is the
preferred print tone. The sepia tone that you prefer is not what most
landscape photographers target.

I know. I am a recovering Ansel Adams clone. I have committed the sins of
giving up silver, printing on matte paper, printing very brown instead of
selenium, selling my spot meter. I don't use the Zone System at all any more
(hint; I have written so many magazine articles and done so much original
research on Zone System techniques that my TypeIt4Me file has an
abbreviation ("zsm") for "Zone System" so that I never have to type the
whole thing out. That abbreviation has been there for about 20 years!

I am certain Ansel rolls over in his grave when he hears my name and he
probably wishes he could rise from that grave for the sole purpose of giving
me a good slap!

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by David Kachel

On 8/14/13 10:55 AM, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:

>I know this is off topic, but the composition of selenium toner changed.
>Tests at RIT's Image Permanence Institute showed that selenium toner no
>longer gives the same protection that it used to. Google "Doug Nishimura
>Selenium Toning."

I don't think it's off topic at all. The past can always inform the
present.
I tracked down that article. Thanks for mentioning it. I found it very
interesting.
This is the first I have heard any indication that light selenium toning
may not be as protective as once thought, though admittedly, I do not
follow silver photography at all any more.
And of course, there is the disturbing tendency that Kodak, especially
Kodak, and other manufacturers had of changing a formulation quite
significantly and not bothering to tell end users. They would even
significantly change the behavior of films and not tell anyone.

(I once got a Kodak technician in Rochester to admit over the phone that
in his opinion, "anhydrous" meant that a little water, enough to turn a
whole jar of chemical into a single clump, was OK!)

In workshops and with students I would compare the silver-gelatin B&W
process to building a sand castle. It was a constant effort to finish
creating what you wanted and get it out the door, before the next wave
came along and washed it all out to sea.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by Tony Sleep

On 14/08/2013 15:41, David Kachel wrote:
> Before digital (BD), NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, was after a "neutral"
> print!

With respect, I disagree.

Green and khaki only came to the fore during the late 1970's as 
manufacturers tried to reduce silver content in response to growing 
environmental concerns and no doubt to bump profits. After Bunker Hunt 
cornered the silver market and paper prices doubled overnight in the early 
80's, silver content was reduced to the point where khaki<>olive drab was 
inescapable, and, as you say, repulsive. RC papers were worst of all.

-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by David Kachel

From:  Tony Sleep 

"Green and khaki only came to the fore during the late 1970's as
manufacturers tried to reduce silver content in response to growing
environmental concerns and no doubt to bump profits. After Bunker Hunt
cornered the silver market and paper prices doubled overnight in the early
80's, silver content was reduced to the point where khaki<>olive drab was
inescapable, and, as you say, repulsive. RC papers were worst of all."

Sorry Tony. Not correct.
B&W papers and films were always green, before and after Mr. Hunt.
It is the nature of the chemical structure. Check the pre-Hunt literature.
It was there. Even Ansel talks about it in his Zone System books, first
published in the 1950s.
And besides, I was there in the 50's and 60's. They were green.
I do blame Mr. Hunt for ruining Portriga Rapid. That alone should carry the
death penalty.   ;-)

As for RC papers, I agree fully. Garbage under all circumstances, no
exceptions. No parole. No commutation.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by Mark Savoia

David, Check my post again, I did not say we make any prints that are not toned. Quote: We still print silver here for clients and the only real reason for doing a slight selenium toning is for archival reasons, not to get the print to be more "neutral".

BTW, we all have our idea of what colors colors are, like describing the blue of the sky is blue, pretty impossible in words. So green to you might not be green to somebody else. I am guilty of this too by making my comment to you that silver prints are not green (to me).


Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Aug 14, 2013, at 11:41 AM, David Kachel wrote:

> Mark, if you are making untoned silver prints for clients, you are doing
> them a disservice. Untoned silver prints are substantially less permanent
> than toned prints.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by Paul Roark

Re. Ansel Adams' print tones:

http://www.orientalphotousa.com/press_adams.htm

"Anyone who has gazed at Ansel Adam's original print of "Moonrise,
Hernandez" is looking
at Oriental New Seagull paper, distributed by International Supplies.
Adams' 16x20-inch dodge/burn schematic for that negative is frequently
displayed
at gallery exhibitions. A handwritten margin note specifies, "Use New
Seagull #3."
Adams' associates report that he loved this paper's refined cold tone look
that
so fits his work."

-----------

http://www.johnpaulcaponigro.com/blog/11560/masterworks-in-my-collection-ansel-adams-clearing-winter-storm-1944/

"When you look at prints of Ansel Adams’ Clearing Winter Storm ...
It’s neutral, perhaps even slightly cold in tone, which is appropriate for
the subject. ..."

------------

http://www.anseladams.com/authorized-and-exclusive/


"The final processing sequence involves selenium toning; a procedure, which
intensifies the
blacks of the print and which also, makes the image more permanent.
Adams also felt this process gave the print a more appealing image color,
neutralizing the usually greenish-black tones of an untoned print to a
sometimes
very slight “cool-purple” black. ..."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by David Kachel

From:  Paul Roark

"Anyone who has gazed at Ansel Adam's original print of 'Moonrise,
Hernandez' is looking
at Oriental New Seagull paper, distributed by International Supplies."

I used Oriental for a while. It was truly wonderful paper, but then they
changed it and it was no longer the same.

Interesting hyperbole on the part of orientalphotousa.com, since the vast
majority of Moonrise prints were made before Oriental paper even existed.
Everybody wants/wanted to jump on the Ansel bandwagon. He did in fact use
Oriental for a while, I believe.

One of the more interesting things about Moonrise is how he changed the
printing over the years. Early versions are barely recognizable. Definitely
an argument against the silly "vintage print" notion.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by David Kachel

From:  Mark Savoia

"David, Check my post again, I did not say we make any prints that are not
toned. Quote: We still print silver here for clients and the only real
reason for doing a slight selenium toning is for archival reasons, not to
get the print to be more "neutral"."

I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you only toned sometimes.
Did you see pdesmidt's post? You may find that article he mentions
interesting. Apparently, light selenium toning, especially with Kodak's
'current' formulation, may not provide significant protection, after all. I
always used selenium to near completion, so no problem for me, but lots of
other people used a far more subtle tone. They may come to regret it.

"BTW, we all have our idea of what colors colors are, like describing the
blue of the sky is blue, pretty impossible in words. So green to you might
not be green to somebody else. I am guilty of this too by making my comment
to you that silver prints are not green (to me)."

I accept the fact that you may not see the green, but it is there
nonetheless. I have often had to show people the green in their images. It
isn't all that subtle, but then, I refer back to my fluorescent light
example. To me it is glaring. To some, it is all but invisible.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by Ernst Dinkla

On 08/14/2013 06:47 PM, Mark Savoia wrote:

> BTW, we all have our idea of what colors colors are, like describing the
> blue of the sky is blue, pretty impossible in words. So green to you
> might not be green to somebody else. I am guilty of this too by making
> my comment to you that silver prints are not green (to me).
>
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com

I am curious about that too. Did taste shift in time and more with the 
digital tools we have today? How linear were the Lab a an b values along 
the tone range of analogue prints then. It would at least be nice to add 
the spectral plots of analogue B&W papers to SpectrumViz. Properly 
developed prints etc. That way we could have a more objective tool to 
compare the paper white color. I have only access to prints at least 30 
years old which is not a good source given OBA degradation etc.

Kodak and other companies must have archived spectral plots somewhere I 
think. I do have some old reviews of analogue B&W papers, must check 
what they have in information but do not recall even a Lab number for 
the paper whites. Last time I looked I was amazed that nobody in the 
seventies seemed to care about OBA content in the papers. Just one 
reference of OBA content.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-14 by David Kachel

From:  Ernst Dinkla

"ŠLast time I looked I was amazed that nobody in the
seventies seemed to care about OBA content in the papers. Just one
reference of OBA content."

Back then, there was no choice. Most papers had OBA's in them. It was "their
way or the highway."
No point in writing a lot of magazine articles about something over which
you have no control or say.

All the manufacturers made their photographic papers on wood pulp. I would
have loved to have had a cotton VC B&W paper.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@davidkachel.com

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@reddoorfinephotographs.com

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-18 by dlruckus

That's because "Selenium" toner hasn't any selenium in it. At least as far as the Kodak version was concerned.

Regards,
Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>  Mr. Kachel said: "Even a visually undetectable
> selenium toning provides adequate protection. (Try a 1:20 dilution for a
> minute or so.)"
> 
> I know this is off topic, but the composition of selenium toner changed.
> Tests at RIT's Image Permanence Institute showed that selenium toner no
> longer gives the same protection that it used to. Google "Doug Nishimura
> Selenium Toning."
>

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-18 by dlruckus

Hi Tony. It may be that experiences were different between Europe and the US. I worked professionally all the way back in the 50s and the (to me) ugly yellow greens were quite apparent on non glossy papers in particular. David is correct about the toning in my estimation. I had experience with Kodak,Agfa and Ilford products.Some slightly better and some worse.

Regards,
Duane
 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On 14/08/2013 15:41, David Kachel wrote:
> > Before digital (BD), NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, was after a "neutral"
> > print!
> 
> With respect, I disagree.
> 
> Green and khaki only came to the fore during the late 1970's as 
> manufacturers tried to reduce silver content in response to growing 
> environmental concerns and no doubt to bump profits. After Bunker Hunt 
> cornered the silver market and paper prices doubled overnight in the early 
> 80's, silver content was reduced to the point where khaki<>olive drab was 
> inescapable, and, as you say, repulsive. RC papers were worst of all.
> 
> -- 
> Regards
> 
> Tony Sleep
> http://tonysleep.co.uk
>

Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

2013-08-18 by David Kachel

From:  dlruckus <dlruckus@...>
Reply-To:  <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date:  Saturday, August 17, 2013 10:03 PM
To:  <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Subject:  Re: [Digital BW] More neutral 100% Eboni Carbon print on Arches

"That's because 'Selenium' toner hasn't any selenium in it. At least as far
as the Kodak version was concerned."

From Kodak's 2007 MSDS:

Weight %  Components - (CAS-No.)

55-60 Water (7732-18-5)

25-30 Ammonium thiosulphate (7783-18-8)

10-15 Sodium sulphite (7757-83-7)

1-5  Selenious acid, disodium salt (10102-18-8)



That sure looks like selenium to me.



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




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