Digital BW, The Print

I thought a generalized topic like this might be of interest here.

One of the news stories that has been a major topic of discussion in the Leica groups is the soon to be released dedicated B&W Leica -- the Leica "Monochrom" or "Leica MM."  See http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m_monochrom/ for the usual Leica information and hype.  It's basically an M9 with the Bayer (and all?) color filters removed from the M9's 18 MP CCD sensor.  (Note there was never an AA or diffusion filter over the sensor on the Leica.)

Putting aside the the usual questions of whether Leicas, in general, are worth the money, whether a grayscale digital camera is an improvement for those of us who do mostly B&W seems like an interesting question.

There is certainly going to be some increase in sharpness, but I, personally, don't think I'd give up the advantages of variable color filtration and superior selection by color range that an RGB original image offers.

In addition to the sharpness increase, there would also be a reduction in shadow or low light noise, at least in many circumstances.  However, in working up my latest B&W landscapes, I found that the green channel, with contrast enhanced, could be used to achieve a lower noise sky than the red filtered channel by itself.  So, would a single red filter over the B&W camera really provide a lower noise sky?  Leica, you can send a test camera to me if you'd like!  ;-)

For those who are predominantly B&W shooters (aside from occasional color snapshots), which would you take if someone offered you a same-make, etc. B&W or color version of your favorite digital camera?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I think I'd be inclined to say thanks but no thanks.  Having gotten used 
to my infinitely variable color/density contrast filter in software, 
which is also independent of the lens front thread diameter, I can't 
imagine going back to a 6-pack of fixed density, single size color 
contrast filters.  Even back when I could take along a set of Leica 
lenses that all had the same front thread diameter it was a nuisance to 
swap 'em, so I tended to put on a yellow or orange and leave it there.  
Why would I want to go back to that?

Leave it to Leica, though.  If somebody can think it up, they'll 
probably give it a try.  (Anybody besides me think the Visoflex was a 
pretty neat device?)

Cheers,
Kip

Paul wrote:
>  
>
> I thought a generalized topic like this might be of interest here.
>
> One of the news stories that has been a major topic of discussion in 
> the Leica groups is the soon to be released dedicated B&W Leica -- the 
> Leica "Monochrom" or "Leica MM." See 
> http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m_monochrom/ for the 
> usual Leica information and hype. It's basically an M9 with the Bayer 
> (and all?) color filters removed from the M9's 18 MP CCD sensor. (Note 
> there was never an AA or diffusion filter over the sensor on the Leica.)
>
> Putting aside the the usual questions of whether Leicas, in general, 
> are worth the money, whether a grayscale digital camera is an 
> improvement for those of us who do mostly B&W seems like an 
> interesting question.
>
> There is certainly going to be some increase in sharpness, but I, 
> personally, don't think I'd give up the advantages of variable color 
> filtration and superior selection by color range that an RGB original 
> image offers.
>
> In addition to the sharpness increase, there would also be a reduction 
> in shadow or low light noise, at least in many circumstances. However, 
> in working up my latest B&W landscapes, I found that the green 
> channel, with contrast enhanced, could be used to achieve a lower 
> noise sky than the red filtered channel by itself. So, would a single 
> red filter over the B&W camera really provide a lower noise sky? 
> Leica, you can send a test camera to me if you'd like! ;-)
>
> For those who are predominantly B&W shooters (aside from occasional 
> color snapshots), which would you take if someone offered you a 
> same-make, etc. B&W or color version of your favorite digital camera?
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For those who are predominantly B&W shooters (aside from occasional color
snapshots), which would you take if someone offered you a same-make, etc.
B&W or color version of your favorite digital camera?

This tells me that Leica doesn't have a clue about B&W photography which is,
to say the very least, VERY strange indeed!
B&W photography is about the manipulation of COLOR as gray tones, but then,
I am preaching to the choir.
And why on Earth would I want to start putting gels in front of/behind my
lenses again when I have finally been liberated from this chore after so
many years?

Sounds like Leica's version of New Coke!   ;-)

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul -

I've already ordered mine!  There are several examples of the RAW DNG files
floating around on the forums. If you download Jono's photos of the Chinese
fisherman and the girl in the scarf and play around with them, it will be
very detrimental to your bank account.  You do have to use filters on the
lens, just like with B&W film, but I still have all of my old filters.  The
detail available in the RAW files is astounding.  I'll be carrying two
digital M's, just like I used to carry two film M's - one for color and one
for B&W.

Tina

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Paul <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I thought a generalized topic like this might be of interest here.
>
> One of the news stories that has been a major topic of discussion in the
> Leica groups is the soon to be released dedicated B&W Leica -- the Leica
> "Monochrom" or "Leica MM." See
> http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m_monochrom/ for the
> usual Leica information and hype. It's basically an M9 with the Bayer (and
> all?) color filters removed from the M9's 18 MP CCD sensor. (Note there was
> never an AA or diffusion filter over the sensor on the Leica.)
>
> Putting aside the the usual questions of whether Leicas, in general, are
> worth the money, whether a grayscale digital camera is an improvement for
> those of us who do mostly B&W seems like an interesting question.
>
> There is certainly going to be some increase in sharpness, but I,
> personally, don't think I'd give up the advantages of variable color
> filtration and superior selection by color range that an RGB original image
> offers.
>
> In addition to the sharpness increase, there would also be a reduction in
> shadow or low light noise, at least in many circumstances. However, in
> working up my latest B&W landscapes, I found that the green channel, with
> contrast enhanced, could be used to achieve a lower noise sky than the red
> filtered channel by itself. So, would a single red filter over the B&W
> camera really provide a lower noise sky? Leica, you can send a test camera
> to me if you'd like! ;-)
>
> For those who are predominantly B&W shooters (aside from occasional color
> snapshots), which would you take if someone offered you a same-make, etc.
> B&W or color version of your favorite digital camera?
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>

-- 
Tina Manley, ASMP
www.tinamanley.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On May 18, 2012, at 9:10 PM, Tina Manley <images@...> wrote:
> There are several examples of the RAW DNG files
> floating around on the forums. If you download Jono's photos of the Chinese
> fisherman and the girl in the scarf and play around with them, it will be
> very detrimental to your bank account.
> 

Do you recall where you found one of the RAW images? Jono's are jpg's as I recall.

What I am curious about is if you can shift the tonalities in the Leica images to the same degree as you can using B/W techniques on color images without adverse effects. If you can, then there really isn't a reason to be hesitant about using a monochrome camera.

Jim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To be honest if they came out with this before the color M9. I might have been tempted.

But now I know better and I don't fit in that group. 

There are tangible improvements no doubt but one would need exceeding craft to full really bring out what the M9M can can do. 

so if you do work in that kind of tradition.. i think its worth it. I assuming the3 serious photographers only.. Personally my work is rough, raw and unpolished so... I can't do benefit from this new camera.

Also remeber that the camera is only 18 mp. which translate into a 13 by 19 print with 300 ppi. This 300 ppi would need you need to show the full extent of the beauty of the M9M's tonality.

If you work in large prints and so need to upres would the advantage still hold? I'm not ssure.

I think the Monochrome sensor still best serve medium format high res sensors.






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jim Goshorn <jgoshorn@...> wrote:

>
> On May 18, 2012, at 9:10 PM, Tina Manley <images@...> wrote:
> > There are several examples of the RAW DNG files
> > floating around on the forums. If you download Jono's photos of the Chinese
> > fisherman and the girl in the scarf and play around with them, it will be
> > very detrimental to your bank account.
> > 
> 
> Do you recall where you found one of the RAW images? Jono's are jpg's as I recall.
> 
> What I am curious about is if you can shift the tonalities in the Leica images to the same degree as you can using B/W techniques on color images without adverse effects. If you can, then there really isn't a reason to be hesitant about using a monochrome camera.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

David,

            You have a point although it would be hard for the sensor to
exhibit any color preference due to the lack of the Beyer array. That said,
I am not too sure if Leica 

has tried to match the spectral response of the sensor to match a typical
panchromatic film. Is there an IR blocking filter included with sensor (UV
should be handled by the lens coatings). I think that there is a can of
worms involved with their design - I may be proven wrong!

            

 

Bob Rapp

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Back when I used film and Leica rangefinders, this was the general 
rule.  You could prove that Leica equipment would provide superior 
optical performance as compared to Nikon/Canon, etc., but it took a very 
solid tripod and careful technical technique to do so.  I was earning 
well and had started with a rangefinder Leica IIIf in the 1950s, and so 
used Ms (3, 5, 6 and a CL) for their compactness, reliability, silence 
(when I was doing theater shots) and the joy of the Leica "feel," but 
honestly can't say I got better images than I would have with one of my 
SLRs.  And once my daughter got into horse jumping and Nikon got fast 
autofocus and reliable autoexposure, my Leicas stayed home.

Now if you have the skills of a Tina Manley and the photo opportunities 
she gets into, you'll be able to get /some /images with a Leica M that 
you're unlikely to get any other way.  But I think that for most 
photographers with less than stunning skills, using a Leica M is more 
about the Leica Experience than higher quality images.  Not to say you 
won't enjoy it if you can afford it  (I certainly did) but you probably 
won't see much improvement in the quality of your output.

chen.benedict wrote:
>  
>
>
> < snip > There are tangible improvements no doubt but one would need 
> exceeding craft to full really bring out what the M9M can can do.   < 
> snip >
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina Manley <images@...> wrote:
>
> I've already ordered mine!  ...

Did you order the new 50 f/2 ASPH also?  That's a novel pricing strategy they have -- price the f/2 at twice that of the f/1.4!

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On 05/19/2012 05:01 AM, Bob Rapp wrote:
> David,

> I am not too sure if Leica
> has tried to match the spectral response of the sensor to match a typical
> panchromatic film. Is there an IR blocking filter included with sensor (UV
> should be handled by the lens coatings). I think that there is a can of
> worms involved with their design - I may be proven wrong!
>
> Bob Rapp

My thoughts too when I saw some of the samples.

Anyway given a choice I would exchange my 5D MK II for a Nikon D800E + a 
set of Sigma macros and still know that the lenses are the limiting 
factor that will not be solved by Leica glass. A couple of Zeiss wide 
angles added though. All the choices of film spectral responses and 
more. Whether I have the talent to use it is another question so there 
is no urge.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Sent from my iPhone

Ernest,

I think most people are coming to the conclusion they'd rather have an
D800E than almost any other camera. I've just spend 3 weeks in China with
one and apart from the low res LCD display (it sub samples the zoomed in
display so hard to tell how sharp image is), can't really fault it. I used
to pine for a more compact, better low light, higher res etc. cameras. Not
any more.... I think the D800E is a inflection point for 35mm and will wipe
out 80% of MF sales going forward - which is a shame, but reality.

Mike

On 19 May 2012 10:45, Ernst Dinkla <e.dinkla@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> On 05/19/2012 05:01 AM, Bob Rapp wrote:
> > David,
>
>
> > I am not too sure if Leica
> > has tried to match the spectral response of the sensor to match a typical
> > panchromatic film. Is there an IR blocking filter included with sensor
> (UV
> > should be handled by the lens coatings). I think that there is a can of
> > worms involved with their design - I may be proven wrong!
> >
> > Bob Rapp
>
> My thoughts too when I saw some of the samples.
>
> Anyway given a choice I would exchange my 5D MK II for a Nikon D800E + a
> set of Sigma macros and still know that the lenses are the limiting
> factor that will not be solved by Leica glass. A couple of Zeiss wide
> angles added though. All the choices of film spectral responses and
> more. Whether I have the talent to use it is another question so there
> is no urge.
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
>
> Dinkla Grafische Techniek
> Quad, pi�zografie, gicl�e
> www.pigment-print.com
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My question would be how to change from Panotomic-X to Tri-X to 
Technical Pan?  That is more than merely a grain issue; it would be a 
spectral sensitivity curve too.

Surely Acufine, D-76 or other developers could be simulated in PS, but 
the film type would be the issue.

Technical Pan (4x5 on a vacuum back process camera) became my mainstay 
for extracting data from faded and/or stained photos I needed to restore.

Absent Tech Pan, which really cannot be simulated in PS, I would not be 
interested.

Seth

In the seventies, I shot Liecas.  I decided I would compare what I was getting with a M3, and f/2 Summicron with what I could get with a Nikon F, and f/2 S lens.  On ASA 125 film, I could not tell any difference in the images.  I gave it some thought (a full NY minute), sold the Liecas and purchased a Nikon FTN and some lenses which I am still using today.  I still use some of the lenses with my D3, and D3x, but I am afraid the FTN hasn't been used for quit a long time.

I will admit that the new Nikon lenses today are not as good as the lenses which they made in the seventies.  I have been disappointed in the AF Nikon Lenses.  Two years ago I made an investment in some Zeiss wide angle lenses.  These are better then the seventies Nikon lenses.  But one only see this difference in the images made with the D3x.

Making B&W images using a monochrome camera?  I only want to carry one camera.  I want to have the option of shooting color, and B&W with that one camera.  My back and neck are not what they were some forty years ago.  Today, I try to make my work load as light as I can.  Usually the D3x with spare battery and cards, Zeiss 28, 35, and 50 macro lenses, and a Nikon 105 f/4 macro lens is all that I carry.  Even though the 105 f/2.5 Nikkor is one of the best lenses I have ever used, I carry the macro because of its versatility.

I have been shooting with a 45mm GN Nikkor in the field sometimes.  This is a Tessar design, is very small, and light, stops down to f/32, and is a very sharp lens.  This is a very good lens if one only wants to cary one good lens.  On my D700, it is a very small, light package.  

Today, I will continue making my new B&W conversions in Photoshop.  But the best B&W images I make are from  my old 4x5 B&W negatives, which are scanned.  But somehow, I have not been able to get myself to mix up some new B&W chemicals, load up a bunch of film holders, and brake out the 4x5 camera again!  At 65, my back could not carry that much weight for very long.

Ben

Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> ... I think the D800E is a inflection point for 35mm and will wipe
> out 80% of MF sales going forward - ...


I think the "inflection" points differ depending on how much sharpness people need for their uses.  For me the Canon 5D2 was it.  My medium format film cameras have stayed on the shelf since then.  But, while the 5D2 was "enough" for me to make excellent 22 x 28 prints, more would be better, with the usual decreasing marginal utility of the higher pixel counts.  

And for me more RGB pixels would be more important than the Leica MM dedicated B&W sensor.  The MM would seem to be at its best without any filter, as in traditional B&W street photography. I think there is a reason Leica called the project "Henri" (as in Cartier-Bresson).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Sorry.  I've been out planting tomatoes.  Here is the link to the original
DNG files:

http://www.slack.co.uk/slack/Monochrom.html

Click on Downloads on the upper right.  He's only going to leave them up
for a few days so download them now if you want them.

Tina

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Tina Manley <images@...> wrote:

> Paul -
>
> I've already ordered mine!  There are several examples of the RAW DNG
> files floating around on the forums. If you download Jono's photos of the
> Chinese fisherman and the girl in the scarf and play around with them, it
> will be very detrimental to your bank account.  You do have to use filters
> on the lens, just like with B&W film, but I still have all of my old
> filters.  The detail available in the RAW files is astounding.  I'll be
> carrying two digital M's, just like I used to carry two film M's - one for
> color and one for B&W.
>
> Tina
>
>
> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Paul <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> I thought a generalized topic like this might be of interest here.
>>
>> One of the news stories that has been a major topic of discussion in the
>> Leica groups is the soon to be released dedicated B&W Leica -- the Leica
>> "Monochrom" or "Leica MM." See
>> http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m_monochrom/ for the
>> usual Leica information and hype. It's basically an M9 with the Bayer (and
>> all?) color filters removed from the M9's 18 MP CCD sensor. (Note there was
>> never an AA or diffusion filter over the sensor on the Leica.)
>>
>> Putting aside the the usual questions of whether Leicas, in general, are
>> worth the money, whether a grayscale digital camera is an improvement for
>> those of us who do mostly B&W seems like an interesting question.
>>
>> There is certainly going to be some increase in sharpness, but I,
>> personally, don't think I'd give up the advantages of variable color
>> filtration and superior selection by color range that an RGB original image
>> offers.
>>
>> In addition to the sharpness increase, there would also be a reduction in
>> shadow or low light noise, at least in many circumstances. However, in
>> working up my latest B&W landscapes, I found that the green channel, with
>> contrast enhanced, could be used to achieve a lower noise sky than the red
>> filtered channel by itself. So, would a single red filter over the B&W
>> camera really provide a lower noise sky? Leica, you can send a test camera
>> to me if you'd like! ;-)
>>
>> For those who are predominantly B&W shooters (aside from occasional color
>> snapshots), which would you take if someone offered you a same-make, etc.
>> B&W or color version of your favorite digital camera?
>>
>> Paul
>> www.PaulRoark.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Tina Manley, ASMP
> www.tinamanley.com
>



-- 
Tina Manley, ASMP
www.tinamanley.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The reason that the green channel has lower noise is that green typically
has twice as many pixels as the other colours. So noise from this sensor
should be amenable to simply downsizing the image so that each image pixel
represents say four camera pixels.

On 18 May 2012 22:24, Paul <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>   However, in working up my latest B&W landscapes, I found that the green
> channel, with contrast enhanced, could be used to achieve a lower noise sky
> than the red filtered channel by itself.  So, would a single red filter
> over the B&W camera really provide a lower noise sky?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a user's review of the Leica MM at http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/23/leica-m-monochrom/ the reviewer has a screen shot of a series of 100% crops that compare the RGB sensor with the B&W one at different ISO's.  It's the most objective comparison I've seen yet.  See 
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8146/7248163262_853753c3bb_o.jpg

I suspect the comparison would be about the same for any type of sensor.

(Thanks to the Leica Users Group for notice of this review.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On 05/23/2012 06:03 AM, Paul wrote:
> In a user's review of the Leica MM at
> http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/23/leica-m-monochrom/ the reviewer has
> a screen shot of a series of 100% crops that compare the RGB sensor with
> the B&W one at different ISO's. It's the most objective comparison I've
> seen yet. See
> http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8146/7248163262_853753c3bb_o.jpg
>
> I suspect the comparison would be about the same for any type of sensor.
>
> (Thanks to the Leica Users Group for notice of this review.)
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com


Good review, interested in the follow ups.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com