Digital BW, The Print

Brian/Clayton,

I also forgot to ask about sharpening.  I read Clayton's workflow for BO article, and unless 
I missed it I didn't see anything about sharpening.  I've read a few different things on the 
subject, and I know it depends upon the type of sharpening, but I've always sharpened 
after resizing the photo to print dimensions.

In terms of the color/greyscale question, I guess the best way to find out is just to 
experiment.  I like the idea of saving an RGB version which would allow me to make very 
specific tweaks to the tone in ways that I'm comfortable with, and then also saving the 
flattened greyscale version prepped for proof.  I'm not too worried about file space at the 
moment, since I'm an amateur fine art photographer (not prolific) and I've got 2 500 GB 
drives to store the files on.

Thanks again for all of your help - it is sincerely appreciated.

Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chapman" 
<brianechapman@...> wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> As far as I know Clayton's main reason for converting to grayscale 
> mode right after the conversion is disk usage, but I don't want to 
> speak for him (just in case I'm wrong).  As far as preparing the 
> file for printing, if there are any other disadvantages to waiting 
> until the end of the workflow I haven't run in to them.  You're 
> right though, keeping the image in RGB allows you to go back at any 
> point in the process and tweak the conversion.  
> 
> I think for the most part that you can duplicate most things that 
> are done in the conversion process afterward using levels or curves, 
> but there are times when modifying the relationship between the 
> color channels is the best way to go.
> 
> Brian
> http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
> <chriskresser@> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you very much, Brian.  
> > 
> > I'm fairly experienced with B&W conversion methods in PS so I am 
> relieved to know that I 
> > can continue working in that fashion and change to greyscale just 
> before printing.  I like to 
> > use Hue/Saturation and Selective Color layers just underneath the 
> B&W conversion layer 
> > (gradient map, channel mixer or whatever) to gain more control 
> over the B&W tones.  
> > 
> > But is there any disadvantage to working this way?  Clayton Jones 
> recommends converting 
> > to greyscale directly after doing the B&W conversion of a color 
> file and then doing levels, 
> > curves, etc. in greyscale mode.  Doing it that way I'd lose out on 
> all of the increased 
> > control I have over the B&W image using layers that are only 
> possible in RGB space.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Chris
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian 
> Chapman" 
> > <brianechapman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris, 
> > > 
> > > This tutorial is an excellent introduction to a couple of the 
> most 
> > > popular methods used to convert an image to black and white.  
> > > 
> > > http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-black-white.htm
> > > 
> > > Any of these methods can be made more flexible by adding 
> > > additional 'conversion' layers (channel mixer, hue layer) and 
> using 
> > > layer masks to allow only portions of each conversion layer to 
> show 
> > > through.  Different methods can also be combined.  I am 
> currently 
> > > writing an article/tutorial describing ways to improve 
> flexibility 
> > > in some of the methods mentioned in the link (I'll post it here 
> when 
> > > I'm done).  Email me offline if you want the first draft or have 
> any 
> > > questions, I'm happy to help.    
> > > 
> > > In my workflow I choose to convert to grayscale mode just before 
> > > printing because I like to work on the image as a black and 
> white 
> > > RGB image so I can make adjustments to the conversion as well as 
> > > other tonal adjustments.  Plus, if you're going to add a toning 
> > > layer (maybe for the K3 with color toning) later you'll need to 
> > > convert back to RGB to do so.  
> > > 
> > > Anyway, I know this was slightly off the printing topic but it's 
> an 
> > > important part of getting good results in print form!
> > > 
> > > Brian
> > > http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
> > > <chriskresser@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Clayton & Paul,
> > > > 
> > > > Thank you so much for your thorough replies.  I'm really much 
> > > closer to understanding 
> > > > how this works, thanks to your generous help.
> > > > 
> > > > It sounds like starting with an r220 and a variable tone MIS 
> ink 
> > > set, along with Paul's ICC 
> > > > profiles and toning curves, is a good way to get my feet wet 
> and 
> > > learn the ropes.  And it 
> > > > sounds like this method can produce very good prints.
> > > > 
> > > > Quick question: I'm assuming I can also use these ICC profiles 
> to 
> > > do a soft-proof of the 
> > > > print in Photoshop.  Is this correct?
> > > > 
> > > > I guess I'll continue to use my Canon MP800 for heavily 
> > > toned/colorized B&W prints until I 
> > > > can afford a 2400.  At that point I'll have more flexible 
> option, 
> > > where I can use RGB/color 
> > > > workflow when printing colorized B&Ws and the ABW/greyscale 
> (or 
> > > QTR RIP) mode when 
> > > > I'm printing "classic" and warm/cool toned B&Ws.
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks again,
> > > > Chris
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> > > Jones" <cj@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Chris,
> > > > > 
> > > > > >I've read over most of your webiste Paul, and also all of 
> the 
> > > > > >articles on Clayton's website. 
> > > > > >I'm not at all sure at what point in the B&W conversion 
> process 
> > > > > >(from my color RAW file) I should convert from RGB to 
> > > greyscale.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I just recently revised article #9 (the 2400 workflow) 
> > > > > 
> > > > >    http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn9.htm
> > > > > 
> > > > > and added more detail to the section on converting to BW.  
> > > Basically
> > > > > the first thing is to apply whatever methods you want to 
> remove 
> > > the
> > > > > color while in RGB, and then change to grayscale mode.  At 
> this 
> > > point
> > > > > the image is ready for any levels, curves and other typical 
> work 
> > > as a
> > > > > BW image.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > >Another question that may help me decide on a printer: with 
> the 
> > > K3 
> > > > > >printers (2400 in particular) is it recommended to also use 
> a 
> > > > > >greyscale workflow for B&W prints, or is it possible to get 
> > > good 
> > > > > >prints using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in RGB 
> > > color 
> > > > > >space...
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think it's possible to get good prints that way, but they 
> of 
> > > course
> > > > > will have a different look and feel.  The ABW mode uses 
> > > primarily the
> > > > > three blacks with colors added only as toners, so the tones 
> are
> > > > > limited to a warm/cool range.  If you wanted, for example, a 
> gold
> > > > > colored tone, or any other hue outside of the grayscale 
> warm/cool
> > > > > range, then the RGB/color controls approach would be 
> required.  
> > > When
> > > > > making BW prints with ABW there is no advantage to keeping 
> the 
> > > image
> > > > > in RGB.  All you have is images that are three times as 
> large.  
> > > When
> > > > > you switch to grayscale the image becomes 1/3 it's former 
> size.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > >How about the 2200 in this regard (though it uses the UC 
> inks 
> > > > > >rather than K3 and is thus not as "archival")?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes, exactly.  The K3 is much better in that regard.   The 
> K3 
> > > printers
> > > > > are a big step forward in technology over the 2200 (and 
> 1280, 
> > > 220 and
> > > > > the rest) for several reasons: better longevity, less 
> bronzing 
> > > and
> > > > > gloss differential on glossy papers, three blacks for much 
> > > better BW
> > > > > prints, and the driver has essentially what is a built in 
> semi-
> > > RIP
> > > > > with it's ABW system.  ABW uses primarily the three blacks, 
> > > adding
> > > > > color inks as toners to create the warm/cool tone you 
> specify 
> > > with the
> > > > > controls.  Using a 3rd party RIP with the 2400 (such as QTR) 
> > > gives
> > > > > even greater control over the inks (for example, eliminating 
> the
> > > > > Yellow from the toning mix).
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Clayton
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>