Digital BW, The Print

Hello everyone,

I have a show coming up at a local coffee shop and I would like to produce some nice B&W 
prints.  I currently have a Canon MP800 printer which produces fair color output but when 
it comes to B&W, particularly with a lot of detail in the shadows - forget it.  So I'd like to 
buy an inkjet printer that is capable of making high quality B&W prints.  

I capture with a Canon 20D (and occasionaly a Holga for fun), and I use a color-managed 
(Adobe RGB) workflow.  I import the RAW files into Photoshop and then convert to B&W 
using a variety of methods (channel mixer, gradient map, LAB, combining channels, etc.) 
depending upon the image.  More often than not I finish with a sepia, silver, palladium or 
other tone using again a variety of methods (color balance, curves, hue/saturation, color 
fill/overlay, etc).

I've done a lot of research here and over at the Photo.net forums, and many folks suggest 
the Epson r2400, 2200, 1280 or r220.  However, the r2400 might be overkill since I do 
not print all that often (and it is a bit of a stretch on my budget).  The Epson r220 (or 
1280/2200) with MIS inks sounds like a very affordable and high quality solution, but if I 
understand correctly (and I'm not at all sure I do) I would lose the ability to print toned 
photos.  Or at least I would have to learn a different method than I am using now (working 
in RGB color space).

If there is a better option (than RGB printing) for printing toned B&W prints digitally, I'm 
open to learning about it.  If someone could direct me to a helpful website or book, I'd 
appreciate it.  Otherwise, can you recommend a printer that would be a good fit for my 
needs?

Thank you for your help - it is much appreciated.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I recently set myself up with a dedicated b&w printer to print images
captured on my Canon 20D.

I too am on a budget, so I went for an Epson 1290 printer with a MIS (
http://www.inksupply.com/) continuous flow system loaded up with their UT2
inkset. I got the whole setup for much less than the price of an Epson R2400
(which is way more than I can afford at the moment).

The UT2 inkset allows you to print a range of tones from cool to warm (and
sepia). This suits me well as I'm still experimenting and didn't want to
commit to a fixed-tone inkset.

My only critisism with this setup is that there is a bit of a learning curve
(partly due to the differences between colour and b&w workflows) and it took
me about a week of tweaking and printing 21-step wedges until I finally
produced a print that I was happy with. That said, now I'm consistently
getting results I consider to be of displayable quality.

I was also considering Lyson (http://www.lyson.com/) quadtone inksets before
I decided on MIS, however I decided against them for a number of reasons.
Lyson inks have been reported to suffer from metamerism (appears different
colours under different lighting conditions) which I didn't want to gamble
with. Also Lyson inks have a different pH to Epson inks, so you need to use
a special cleaning ink cartridge if you want to switch between Lyson/Epson
inks. MIS inks on the other hand are matched with Epson, so you can switch
between them freely should you ever need to.

Goodluck, I hope this helps.

Josh.


On 7/27/06, chriskjezp <chriskresser@...> wrote:
>
>   Hello everyone,
>
> I have a show coming up at a local coffee shop and I would like to produce
> some nice B&W
> prints. I currently have a Canon MP800 printer which produces fair color
> output but when
> it comes to B&W, particularly with a lot of detail in the shadows - forget
> it. So I'd like to
> buy an inkjet printer that is capable of making high quality B&W prints.
>
> I capture with a Canon 20D (and occasionaly a Holga for fun), and I use a
> color-managed
> (Adobe RGB) workflow. I import the RAW files into Photoshop and then
> convert to B&W
> using a variety of methods (channel mixer, gradient map, LAB, combining
> channels, etc.)
> depending upon the image. More often than not I finish with a sepia,
> silver, palladium or
> other tone using again a variety of methods (color balance, curves,
> hue/saturation, color
> fill/overlay, etc).
>
> I've done a lot of research here and over at the Photo.net forums, and
> many folks suggest
> the Epson r2400, 2200, 1280 or r220. However, the r2400 might be overkill
> since I do
> not print all that often (and it is a bit of a stretch on my budget). The
> Epson r220 (or
> 1280/2200) with MIS inks sounds like a very affordable and high quality
> solution, but if I
> understand correctly (and I'm not at all sure I do) I would lose the
> ability to print toned
> photos. Or at least I would have to learn a different method than I am
> using now (working
> in RGB color space).
>
> If there is a better option (than RGB printing) for printing toned B&W
> prints digitally, I'm
> open to learning about it. If someone could direct me to a helpful website
> or book, I'd
> appreciate it. Otherwise, can you recommend a printer that would be a good
> fit for my
> needs?
>
> Thank you for your help - it is much appreciated.
>
> Chris
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris,

>... More often than not I finish with a sepia, silver, palladium or 
> other tone ...

>... The Epson r220 (or 1280/2200) with MIS inks sounds 
> like a very affordable and high quality solution, 
> but if I understand correctly (and I'm not at all sure I do) 
> I would lose the ability to print toned photos.
 
> Or at least I would have to learn a different method than 
> I am using now (working in RGB color space).

With MIS B&W pigments you can "tone" prints, within limits.  For sample
tones see http://home1.gte.net/res0a2zt/V-tone.html

The UT-R2 inkset has 2 tones of ink -- neutral/cool (depending on paper) and
carbon.  The workflow that most use is to put in different combinations of
neutral and carbon carts to achieve the tone, including split tone, that you
want for the particular photo.  For more inforation on the R2 inkset, see
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/R220_R2_Readme.pdf 

The variable-tone inksets like the UT2 do this with curves.  See, for
example, http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-Readme.htm

The UT2 and UT7 inksets have a range form cool to sepia.  The UT-R2 and 3D
normal warm end is carbon, which is about half way to sepia.  The UT2/UT7
sepia ink, however, can be used with either inkset in the 220 or other
printer to make a sepia print.

For more information on the inksets and workflows I've been involved with,
see my index at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

Hope this helps you get into B&W printing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul and Joshua,

Thanks for the reply.  Clearly I've got a lot of learning to do.  I've read over most of your 
webiste Paul, and also all of the articles on Clayton's website.  Thanks to you two I have a 
much better handle on what the options are and how to choose the right printer for me.

It seems like if I go with the r220 I will need to get used to the concept of a greyscale 
workflow and then toning the print using Paul's curves or variable ink and slider 
adjustments.  This is new for me, as I've been using an RGB workflow and printing toned 
B&W prints with color ink.  I understand that this isn't the best method, with the possible 
exception of the K3 printers.

Since I am very new to a greyscale workflow, can someone point me toward a website or 
book that could help me with that?  For example, I'm not at all sure at what point in the 
B&W conversion process (from my color RAW file) I should convert from RGB to greyscale.  
This is just one of my questions, but there are others.

Another question that may help me decide on a printer: with the K3 printers (2400 in 
particular) is it recommended to also use a greyscale workflow for B&W prints, or is it 
possible to get good prints using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in RGB color 
space (rather than using the sliders in the Epson driver or Paul's curves)?  How about the 
2200 in this regard (though it uses the UC inks rather than K3 and is thus not as 
"archival")?

Thanks again,
Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> 
wrote:

>
> Chris,
> 
> >... More often than not I finish with a sepia, silver, palladium or 
> > other tone ...
> 
> >... The Epson r220 (or 1280/2200) with MIS inks sounds 
> > like a very affordable and high quality solution, 
> > but if I understand correctly (and I'm not at all sure I do) 
> > I would lose the ability to print toned photos.
>  
> > Or at least I would have to learn a different method than 
> > I am using now (working in RGB color space).
> 
> With MIS B&W pigments you can "tone" prints, within limits.  For sample
> tones see http://home1.gte.net/res0a2zt/V-tone.html
> 
> The UT-R2 inkset has 2 tones of ink -- neutral/cool (depending on paper) and
> carbon.  The workflow that most use is to put in different combinations of
> neutral and carbon carts to achieve the tone, including split tone, that you
> want for the particular photo.  For more inforation on the R2 inkset, see
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/R220_R2_Readme.pdf 
> 
> The variable-tone inksets like the UT2 do this with curves.  See, for
> example, http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-Readme.htm
> 
> The UT2 and UT7 inksets have a range form cool to sepia.  The UT-R2 and 3D
> normal warm end is carbon, which is about half way to sepia.  The UT2/UT7
> sepia ink, however, can be used with either inkset in the 220 or other
> printer to make a sepia print.
> 
> For more information on the inksets and workflows I've been involved with,
> see my index at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/
> 
> Hope this helps you get into B&W printing.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hello Chris,

>I've read over most of your webiste Paul, and also all of the 
>articles on Clayton's website. 
>I'm not at all sure at what point in the B&W conversion process 
>(from my color RAW file) I should convert from RGB to greyscale.  


I just recently revised article #9 (the 2400 workflow) 

   http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn9.htm

and added more detail to the section on converting to BW.  Basically
the first thing is to apply whatever methods you want to remove the
color while in RGB, and then change to grayscale mode.  At this point
the image is ready for any levels, curves and other typical work as a
BW image.


>Another question that may help me decide on a printer: with the K3 
>printers (2400 in particular) is it recommended to also use a 
>greyscale workflow for B&W prints, or is it possible to get good 
>prints using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in RGB color 
>space...

I think it's possible to get good prints that way, but they of course
will have a different look and feel.  The ABW mode uses primarily the
three blacks with colors added only as toners, so the tones are
limited to a warm/cool range.  If you wanted, for example, a gold
colored tone, or any other hue outside of the grayscale warm/cool
range, then the RGB/color controls approach would be required.  When
making BW prints with ABW there is no advantage to keeping the image
in RGB.  All you have is images that are three times as large.  When
you switch to grayscale the image becomes 1/3 it's former size.


>How about the 2200 in this regard (though it uses the UC inks 
>rather than K3 and is thus not as "archival")?

Yes, exactly.  The K3 is much better in that regard.   The K3 printers
are a big step forward in technology over the 2200 (and 1280, 220 and
the rest) for several reasons: better longevity, less bronzing and
gloss differential on glossy papers, three blacks for much better BW
prints, and the driver has essentially what is a built in semi-RIP
with it's ABW system.  ABW uses primarily the three blacks, adding
color inks as toners to create the warm/cool tone you specify with the
controls.  Using a 3rd party RIP with the 2400 (such as QTR) gives
even greater control over the inks (for example, eliminating the
Yellow from the toning mix).


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Chris,

>... if I go with the r220 I will need to get used to ... 
> a greyscale workflow and then toning the print using Paul's 
> curves or variable ink and slider adjustments.

Yes, for now that is the way most of us do it.  

> ... greyscale workflow, ...?

I suspect most of us have our own versions of these.

One important step in such a workflow is simply to get the monitor to match
the print.  We used to resort to custom dot gain curves or layers.  I think
the best way to do this now is by using a workflow that incorporated Roy
Harrington's "Create ICC" program.  I use this in the most recent approaches
I recommend, and it can also be used with the 2400 ABW mode printer.  This
basically inserts an ICC in the Print Preview section of the Photoshop
printing workflow.  My UT-R2 pdf at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/R220_R2_Readme.pdf outlines how this works
with that inkset.

> ... I'm not at all sure at what point in the 
> B&W conversion process (from my color RAW file) I should 
> convert from RGB to greyscale. 

There seems to be a lot of discussion of conversion procedures.  I use the
clone/rubber stamp tool a lot when I work up an image.  By avoiding any
cropping, it's very easy to align the clone tool between versions of the
same image and clone information from one to the other.  I do this with
respect to the color as well.  I take the color image and do a split
channels.  Then I pull the information from the different color channels
simply based on which channel looks the best.

I'm in the experimental stage of converting the raw images.  One thing I've
heard, however, is that the raw converters are getting better.  As such, one
would be well advised to keep the raw images around because the newer
programs may be able to do a better job in the future.  The approach of
cloning from one image to another will facilitate make use of the projected
raw conversion software improvements.

> ... with the K3 printers ... is it possible to get good prints 
> using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in RGB color 
> space ...

I'm sure many do this.  From a technical perspective, the 2400 uses more
color pigments than the minimum necessary for the desired tone.  The RGB
workflow is worse in this respect than the ABW mode.  The more color, the
less the longevity and the more the color artifacts.  So, it's a trade off,
and different people will opt of different solutions to the issue.  The nice
thing about the 220 approach is that its cheap enough to just dive in and
start learning by doing.

Enjoy,

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Clayton & Paul,

Thank you so much for your thorough replies.  I'm really much closer to understanding 
how this works, thanks to your generous help.

It sounds like starting with an r220 and a variable tone MIS ink set, along with Paul's ICC 
profiles and toning curves, is a good way to get my feet wet and learn the ropes.  And it 
sounds like this method can produce very good prints.

Quick question: I'm assuming I can also use these ICC profiles to do a soft-proof of the 
print in Photoshop.  Is this correct?

I guess I'll continue to use my Canon MP800 for heavily toned/colorized B&W prints until I 
can afford a 2400.  At that point I'll have more flexible option, where I can use RGB/color 
workflow when printing colorized B&Ws and the ABW/greyscale (or QTR RIP) mode when 
I'm printing "classic" and warm/cool toned B&Ws.

Thanks again,
Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Chris,
> 
> >I've read over most of your webiste Paul, and also all of the 
> >articles on Clayton's website. 
> >I'm not at all sure at what point in the B&W conversion process 
> >(from my color RAW file) I should convert from RGB to greyscale.  
> 
> 
> I just recently revised article #9 (the 2400 workflow) 
> 
>    http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn9.htm
> 
> and added more detail to the section on converting to BW.  Basically
> the first thing is to apply whatever methods you want to remove the
> color while in RGB, and then change to grayscale mode.  At this point
> the image is ready for any levels, curves and other typical work as a
> BW image.
> 
> 
> >Another question that may help me decide on a printer: with the K3 
> >printers (2400 in particular) is it recommended to also use a 
> >greyscale workflow for B&W prints, or is it possible to get good 
> >prints using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in RGB color 
> >space...
> 
> I think it's possible to get good prints that way, but they of course
> will have a different look and feel.  The ABW mode uses primarily the
> three blacks with colors added only as toners, so the tones are
> limited to a warm/cool range.  If you wanted, for example, a gold
> colored tone, or any other hue outside of the grayscale warm/cool
> range, then the RGB/color controls approach would be required.  When
> making BW prints with ABW there is no advantage to keeping the image
> in RGB.  All you have is images that are three times as large.  When
> you switch to grayscale the image becomes 1/3 it's former size.
> 
> 
> >How about the 2200 in this regard (though it uses the UC inks 
> >rather than K3 and is thus not as "archival")?
> 
> Yes, exactly.  The K3 is much better in that regard.   The K3 printers
> are a big step forward in technology over the 2200 (and 1280, 220 and
> the rest) for several reasons: better longevity, less bronzing and
> gloss differential on glossy papers, three blacks for much better BW
> prints, and the driver has essentially what is a built in semi-RIP
> with it's ABW system.  ABW uses primarily the three blacks, adding
> color inks as toners to create the warm/cool tone you specify with the
> controls.  Using a 3rd party RIP with the 2400 (such as QTR) gives
> even greater control over the inks (for example, eliminating the
> Yellow from the toning mix).
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Chris, 

This tutorial is an excellent introduction to a couple of the most 
popular methods used to convert an image to black and white.  

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-black-white.htm

Any of these methods can be made more flexible by adding 
additional 'conversion' layers (channel mixer, hue layer) and using 
layer masks to allow only portions of each conversion layer to show 
through.  Different methods can also be combined.  I am currently 
writing an article/tutorial describing ways to improve flexibility 
in some of the methods mentioned in the link (I'll post it here when 
I'm done).  Email me offline if you want the first draft or have any 
questions, I'm happy to help.    

In my workflow I choose to convert to grayscale mode just before 
printing because I like to work on the image as a black and white 
RGB image so I can make adjustments to the conversion as well as 
other tonal adjustments.  Plus, if you're going to add a toning 
layer (maybe for the K3 with color toning) later you'll need to 
convert back to RGB to do so.  

Anyway, I know this was slightly off the printing topic but it's an 
important part of getting good results in print form!

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
<chriskresser@...> wrote:
>
> Clayton & Paul,
> 
> Thank you so much for your thorough replies.  I'm really much 
closer to understanding 
> how this works, thanks to your generous help.
> 
> It sounds like starting with an r220 and a variable tone MIS ink 
set, along with Paul's ICC 
> profiles and toning curves, is a good way to get my feet wet and 
learn the ropes.  And it 
> sounds like this method can produce very good prints.
> 
> Quick question: I'm assuming I can also use these ICC profiles to 
do a soft-proof of the 
> print in Photoshop.  Is this correct?
> 
> I guess I'll continue to use my Canon MP800 for heavily 
toned/colorized B&W prints until I 
> can afford a 2400.  At that point I'll have more flexible option, 
where I can use RGB/color 
> workflow when printing colorized B&Ws and the ABW/greyscale (or 
QTR RIP) mode when 
> I'm printing "classic" and warm/cool toned B&Ws.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Chris
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
Jones" <cj@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Chris,
> > 
> > >I've read over most of your webiste Paul, and also all of the 
> > >articles on Clayton's website. 
> > >I'm not at all sure at what point in the B&W conversion process 
> > >(from my color RAW file) I should convert from RGB to 
greyscale.  
> > 
> > 
> > I just recently revised article #9 (the 2400 workflow) 
> > 
> >    http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn9.htm
> > 
> > and added more detail to the section on converting to BW.  
Basically
> > the first thing is to apply whatever methods you want to remove 
the
> > color while in RGB, and then change to grayscale mode.  At this 
point
> > the image is ready for any levels, curves and other typical work 
as a
> > BW image.
> > 
> > 
> > >Another question that may help me decide on a printer: with the 
K3 
> > >printers (2400 in particular) is it recommended to also use a 
> > >greyscale workflow for B&W prints, or is it possible to get 
good 
> > >prints using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in RGB 
color 
> > >space...
> > 
> > I think it's possible to get good prints that way, but they of 
course
> > will have a different look and feel.  The ABW mode uses 
primarily the
> > three blacks with colors added only as toners, so the tones are
> > limited to a warm/cool range.  If you wanted, for example, a gold
> > colored tone, or any other hue outside of the grayscale warm/cool
> > range, then the RGB/color controls approach would be required.  
When
> > making BW prints with ABW there is no advantage to keeping the 
image
> > in RGB.  All you have is images that are three times as large.  
When
> > you switch to grayscale the image becomes 1/3 it's former size.
> > 
> > 
> > >How about the 2200 in this regard (though it uses the UC inks 
> > >rather than K3 and is thus not as "archival")?
> > 
> > Yes, exactly.  The K3 is much better in that regard.   The K3 
printers
> > are a big step forward in technology over the 2200 (and 1280, 
220 and
> > the rest) for several reasons: better longevity, less bronzing 
and
> > gloss differential on glossy papers, three blacks for much 
better BW
> > prints, and the driver has essentially what is a built in semi-
RIP
> > with it's ABW system.  ABW uses primarily the three blacks, 
adding
> > color inks as toners to create the warm/cool tone you specify 
with the
> > controls.  Using a 3rd party RIP with the 2400 (such as QTR) 
gives

> > even greater control over the inks (for example, eliminating the
> > Yellow from the toning mix).
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> >
>

Thank you very much, Brian.  

I'm fairly experienced with B&W conversion methods in PS so I am relieved to know that I 
can continue working in that fashion and change to greyscale just before printing.  I like to 
use Hue/Saturation and Selective Color layers just underneath the B&W conversion layer 
(gradient map, channel mixer or whatever) to gain more control over the B&W tones.  

But is there any disadvantage to working this way?  Clayton Jones recommends converting 
to greyscale directly after doing the B&W conversion of a color file and then doing levels, 
curves, etc. in greyscale mode.  Doing it that way I'd lose out on all of the increased 
control I have over the B&W image using layers that are only possible in RGB space.

Best,
Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chapman" 
<brianechapman@...> wrote:

>
> Chris, 
> 
> This tutorial is an excellent introduction to a couple of the most 
> popular methods used to convert an image to black and white.  
> 
> http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-black-white.htm
> 
> Any of these methods can be made more flexible by adding 
> additional 'conversion' layers (channel mixer, hue layer) and using 
> layer masks to allow only portions of each conversion layer to show 
> through.  Different methods can also be combined.  I am currently 
> writing an article/tutorial describing ways to improve flexibility 
> in some of the methods mentioned in the link (I'll post it here when 
> I'm done).  Email me offline if you want the first draft or have any 
> questions, I'm happy to help.    
> 
> In my workflow I choose to convert to grayscale mode just before 
> printing because I like to work on the image as a black and white 
> RGB image so I can make adjustments to the conversion as well as 
> other tonal adjustments.  Plus, if you're going to add a toning 
> layer (maybe for the K3 with color toning) later you'll need to 
> convert back to RGB to do so.  
> 
> Anyway, I know this was slightly off the printing topic but it's an 
> important part of getting good results in print form!
> 
> Brian
> http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
> <chriskresser@> wrote:
> >
> > Clayton & Paul,
> > 
> > Thank you so much for your thorough replies.  I'm really much 
> closer to understanding 
> > how this works, thanks to your generous help.
> > 
> > It sounds like starting with an r220 and a variable tone MIS ink 
> set, along with Paul's ICC 
> > profiles and toning curves, is a good way to get my feet wet and 
> learn the ropes.  And it 
> > sounds like this method can produce very good prints.
> > 
> > Quick question: I'm assuming I can also use these ICC profiles to 
> do a soft-proof of the 
> > print in Photoshop.  Is this correct?
> > 
> > I guess I'll continue to use my Canon MP800 for heavily 
> toned/colorized B&W prints until I 
> > can afford a 2400.  At that point I'll have more flexible option, 
> where I can use RGB/color 
> > workflow when printing colorized B&Ws and the ABW/greyscale (or 
> QTR RIP) mode when 
> > I'm printing "classic" and warm/cool toned B&Ws.
> > 
> > Thanks again,
> > Chris
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> Jones" <cj@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Chris,
> > > 
> > > >I've read over most of your webiste Paul, and also all of the 
> > > >articles on Clayton's website. 
> > > >I'm not at all sure at what point in the B&W conversion process 
> > > >(from my color RAW file) I should convert from RGB to 
> greyscale.  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I just recently revised article #9 (the 2400 workflow) 
> > > 
> > >    http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn9.htm
> > > 
> > > and added more detail to the section on converting to BW.  
> Basically
> > > the first thing is to apply whatever methods you want to remove 
> the
> > > color while in RGB, and then change to grayscale mode.  At this 
> point
> > > the image is ready for any levels, curves and other typical work 
> as a
> > > BW image.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >Another question that may help me decide on a printer: with the 
> K3 
> > > >printers (2400 in particular) is it recommended to also use a 
> > > >greyscale workflow for B&W prints, or is it possible to get 
> good 
> > > >prints using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in RGB 
> color 
> > > >space...
> > > 
> > > I think it's possible to get good prints that way, but they of 
> course
> > > will have a different look and feel.  The ABW mode uses 
> primarily the
> > > three blacks with colors added only as toners, so the tones are
> > > limited to a warm/cool range.  If you wanted, for example, a gold
> > > colored tone, or any other hue outside of the grayscale warm/cool
> > > range, then the RGB/color controls approach would be required.  
> When
> > > making BW prints with ABW there is no advantage to keeping the 
> image
> > > in RGB.  All you have is images that are three times as large.  
> When
> > > you switch to grayscale the image becomes 1/3 it's former size.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >How about the 2200 in this regard (though it uses the UC inks 
> > > >rather than K3 and is thus not as "archival")?
> > > 
> > > Yes, exactly.  The K3 is much better in that regard.   The K3 
> printers
> > > are a big step forward in technology over the 2200 (and 1280, 
> 220 and
> > > the rest) for several reasons: better longevity, less bronzing 
> and
> > > gloss differential on glossy papers, three blacks for much 
> better BW
> > > prints, and the driver has essentially what is a built in semi-
> RIP
> > > with it's ABW system.  ABW uses primarily the three blacks, 
> adding
> > > color inks as toners to create the warm/cool tone you specify 
> with the
> > > controls.  Using a 3rd party RIP with the 2400 (such as QTR) 
> gives
> > > even greater control over the inks (for example, eliminating the
> > > Yellow from the toning mix).
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Clayton
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > >
> >
>

I think I'm finally starting to understand all of the theory here.  Now just a question of 
choosing the right printer for my needs.

The Epson 2200 seems like it could be ideal because with the Epson inks and QTR I could 
get good quality B&W prints on matte paper and still retain the ability to print color-toned 
images at a level of quality far higher than my current set-up.  I could also use a single 
Eboni cartridge to do BO printing with the 2200 for higher quality B&W, and if I decide to 
give up the color-toned images I could get the MIS inks and along with the QTR, gloss 
optimizer in the yellow position (for glossy prints) and QTR curves that take advantage of 
gloss optimizer I'd have a printer that gets pretty close to the output of the 2400 on both 
matte and glossy (from what I've read).  The 2200 is available for $450 refurbed and I 
wouldn't need any special ink to get started.

The other option would be to get the r220 ($70), the MIS inkset (variable with both PK and 
K blacks, $80) and just give up on color-toned images for a while.  That would cost me 
$155.  I could put the extra $300 in a special "r2400" savings account :)

What would you do?

Thanks,
Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> 
wrote:

>
> Chris,
> 
> >... if I go with the r220 I will need to get used to ... 
> > a greyscale workflow and then toning the print using Paul's 
> > curves or variable ink and slider adjustments.
> 
> Yes, for now that is the way most of us do it.  
> 
> > ... greyscale workflow, ...?
> 
> I suspect most of us have our own versions of these.
> 
> One important step in such a workflow is simply to get the monitor to match
> the print.  We used to resort to custom dot gain curves or layers.  I think
> the best way to do this now is by using a workflow that incorporated Roy
> Harrington's "Create ICC" program.  I use this in the most recent approaches
> I recommend, and it can also be used with the 2400 ABW mode printer.  This
> basically inserts an ICC in the Print Preview section of the Photoshop
> printing workflow.  My UT-R2 pdf at
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/R220_R2_Readme.pdf outlines how this works
> with that inkset.
> 
> > ... I'm not at all sure at what point in the 
> > B&W conversion process (from my color RAW file) I should 
> > convert from RGB to greyscale. 
> 
> There seems to be a lot of discussion of conversion procedures.  I use the
> clone/rubber stamp tool a lot when I work up an image.  By avoiding any
> cropping, it's very easy to align the clone tool between versions of the
> same image and clone information from one to the other.  I do this with
> respect to the color as well.  I take the color image and do a split
> channels.  Then I pull the information from the different color channels
> simply based on which channel looks the best.
> 
> I'm in the experimental stage of converting the raw images.  One thing I've
> heard, however, is that the raw converters are getting better.  As such, one
> would be well advised to keep the raw images around because the newer
> programs may be able to do a better job in the future.  The approach of
> cloning from one image to another will facilitate make use of the projected
> raw conversion software improvements.
> 
> > ... with the K3 printers ... is it possible to get good prints 
> > using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in RGB color 
> > space ...
> 
> I'm sure many do this.  From a technical perspective, the 2400 uses more
> color pigments than the minimum necessary for the desired tone.  The RGB
> workflow is worse in this respect than the ABW mode.  The more color, the
> less the longevity and the more the color artifacts.  So, it's a trade off,
> and different people will opt of different solutions to the issue.  The nice
> thing about the 220 approach is that its cheap enough to just dive in and
> start learning by doing.
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

> 
> Yes, exactly.  The K3 is much better in that regard.   The K3 printers
> are a big step forward in technology over the 2200 (and 1280, 220 and
> the rest) for several reasons: better longevity, 


Hello Clayton,

I don't know if I'm reading this correctly and maybe you can light my
lamp, but regarding longevity I fail to see how a printer (Epson R220
included) loaded with Ebony black, printing in B.O. mode on the right
paper would not be about the biggest step foward in print longevity.

Unless, of course, you were talking about the original six colors dye
inkset of the R220.

Thanks for your always spot on input,
Andre

Chris,

As far as I know Clayton's main reason for converting to grayscale 
mode right after the conversion is disk usage, but I don't want to 
speak for him (just in case I'm wrong).  As far as preparing the 
file for printing, if there are any other disadvantages to waiting 
until the end of the workflow I haven't run in to them.  You're 
right though, keeping the image in RGB allows you to go back at any 
point in the process and tweak the conversion.  

I think for the most part that you can duplicate most things that 
are done in the conversion process afterward using levels or curves, 
but there are times when modifying the relationship between the 
color channels is the best way to go.

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
<chriskresser@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you very much, Brian.  
> 
> I'm fairly experienced with B&W conversion methods in PS so I am 
relieved to know that I 
> can continue working in that fashion and change to greyscale just 
before printing.  I like to 
> use Hue/Saturation and Selective Color layers just underneath the 
B&W conversion layer 
> (gradient map, channel mixer or whatever) to gain more control 
over the B&W tones.  
> 
> But is there any disadvantage to working this way?  Clayton Jones 
recommends converting 
> to greyscale directly after doing the B&W conversion of a color 
file and then doing levels, 
> curves, etc. in greyscale mode.  Doing it that way I'd lose out on 
all of the increased 
> control I have over the B&W image using layers that are only 
possible in RGB space.
> 
> Best,
> Chris
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian 
Chapman" 
> <brianechapman@> wrote:
> >
> > Chris, 
> > 
> > This tutorial is an excellent introduction to a couple of the 
most 
> > popular methods used to convert an image to black and white.  
> > 
> > http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-black-white.htm
> > 
> > Any of these methods can be made more flexible by adding 
> > additional 'conversion' layers (channel mixer, hue layer) and 
using 
> > layer masks to allow only portions of each conversion layer to 
show 
> > through.  Different methods can also be combined.  I am 
currently 
> > writing an article/tutorial describing ways to improve 
flexibility 
> > in some of the methods mentioned in the link (I'll post it here 
when 
> > I'm done).  Email me offline if you want the first draft or have 
any 
> > questions, I'm happy to help.    
> > 
> > In my workflow I choose to convert to grayscale mode just before 
> > printing because I like to work on the image as a black and 
white 
> > RGB image so I can make adjustments to the conversion as well as 
> > other tonal adjustments.  Plus, if you're going to add a toning 
> > layer (maybe for the K3 with color toning) later you'll need to 
> > convert back to RGB to do so.  
> > 
> > Anyway, I know this was slightly off the printing topic but it's 
an 
> > important part of getting good results in print form!
> > 
> > Brian
> > http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
> > 
> > 
> > --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
> > <chriskresser@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Clayton & Paul,
> > > 
> > > Thank you so much for your thorough replies.  I'm really much 
> > closer to understanding 
> > > how this works, thanks to your generous help.
> > > 
> > > It sounds like starting with an r220 and a variable tone MIS 
ink 
> > set, along with Paul's ICC 
> > > profiles and toning curves, is a good way to get my feet wet 
and 
> > learn the ropes.  And it 
> > > sounds like this method can produce very good prints.
> > > 
> > > Quick question: I'm assuming I can also use these ICC profiles 
to 
> > do a soft-proof of the 
> > > print in Photoshop.  Is this correct?
> > > 
> > > I guess I'll continue to use my Canon MP800 for heavily 
> > toned/colorized B&W prints until I 
> > > can afford a 2400.  At that point I'll have more flexible 
option, 
> > where I can use RGB/color 
> > > workflow when printing colorized B&Ws and the ABW/greyscale 
(or 
> > QTR RIP) mode when 
> > > I'm printing "classic" and warm/cool toned B&Ws.
> > > 
> > > Thanks again,
> > > Chris
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> > Jones" <cj@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Chris,
> > > > 
> > > > >I've read over most of your webiste Paul, and also all of 
the 
> > > > >articles on Clayton's website. 
> > > > >I'm not at all sure at what point in the B&W conversion 
process 
> > > > >(from my color RAW file) I should convert from RGB to 
> > greyscale.  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I just recently revised article #9 (the 2400 workflow) 
> > > > 
> > > >    http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn9.htm
> > > > 
> > > > and added more detail to the section on converting to BW.  
> > Basically
> > > > the first thing is to apply whatever methods you want to 
remove 
> > the
> > > > color while in RGB, and then change to grayscale mode.  At 
this 
> > point
> > > > the image is ready for any levels, curves and other typical 
work 
> > as a
> > > > BW image.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > >Another question that may help me decide on a printer: with 
the 
> > K3 
> > > > >printers (2400 in particular) is it recommended to also use 
a 
> > > > >greyscale workflow for B&W prints, or is it possible to get 
> > good 
> > > > >prints using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in RGB 
> > color 
> > > > >space...
> > > > 
> > > > I think it's possible to get good prints that way, but they 
of 
> > course
> > > > will have a different look and feel.  The ABW mode uses 
> > primarily the
> > > > three blacks with colors added only as toners, so the tones 
are
> > > > limited to a warm/cool range.  If you wanted, for example, a 
gold
> > > > colored tone, or any other hue outside of the grayscale 
warm/cool
> > > > range, then the RGB/color controls approach would be 
required.  
> > When
> > > > making BW prints with ABW there is no advantage to keeping 
the 
> > image
> > > > in RGB.  All you have is images that are three times as 
large.  
> > When
> > > > you switch to grayscale the image becomes 1/3 it's former 
size.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > >How about the 2200 in this regard (though it uses the UC 
inks 
> > > > >rather than K3 and is thus not as "archival")?
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, exactly.  The K3 is much better in that regard.   The 
K3 
> > printers
> > > > are a big step forward in technology over the 2200 (and 
1280, 
> > 220 and
> > > > the rest) for several reasons: better longevity, less 
bronzing 
> > and
> > > > gloss differential on glossy papers, three blacks for much 
> > better BW
> > > > prints, and the driver has essentially what is a built in 
semi-
> > RIP
> > > > with it's ABW system.  ABW uses primarily the three blacks, 
> > adding
> > > > color inks as toners to create the warm/cool tone you 
specify 
> > with the
> > > > controls.  Using a 3rd party RIP with the 2400 (such as QTR) 
> > gives
> > > > even greater control over the inks (for example, eliminating 
the

> > > > Yellow from the toning mix).
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Clayton
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Brian/Clayton,

I also forgot to ask about sharpening.  I read Clayton's workflow for BO article, and unless 
I missed it I didn't see anything about sharpening.  I've read a few different things on the 
subject, and I know it depends upon the type of sharpening, but I've always sharpened 
after resizing the photo to print dimensions.

In terms of the color/greyscale question, I guess the best way to find out is just to 
experiment.  I like the idea of saving an RGB version which would allow me to make very 
specific tweaks to the tone in ways that I'm comfortable with, and then also saving the 
flattened greyscale version prepped for proof.  I'm not too worried about file space at the 
moment, since I'm an amateur fine art photographer (not prolific) and I've got 2 500 GB 
drives to store the files on.

Thanks again for all of your help - it is sincerely appreciated.

Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chapman" 
<brianechapman@...> wrote:

>
> Chris,
> 
> As far as I know Clayton's main reason for converting to grayscale 
> mode right after the conversion is disk usage, but I don't want to 
> speak for him (just in case I'm wrong).  As far as preparing the 
> file for printing, if there are any other disadvantages to waiting 
> until the end of the workflow I haven't run in to them.  You're 
> right though, keeping the image in RGB allows you to go back at any 
> point in the process and tweak the conversion.  
> 
> I think for the most part that you can duplicate most things that 
> are done in the conversion process afterward using levels or curves, 
> but there are times when modifying the relationship between the 
> color channels is the best way to go.
> 
> Brian
> http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
> <chriskresser@> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you very much, Brian.  
> > 
> > I'm fairly experienced with B&W conversion methods in PS so I am 
> relieved to know that I 
> > can continue working in that fashion and change to greyscale just 
> before printing.  I like to 
> > use Hue/Saturation and Selective Color layers just underneath the 
> B&W conversion layer 
> > (gradient map, channel mixer or whatever) to gain more control 
> over the B&W tones.  
> > 
> > But is there any disadvantage to working this way?  Clayton Jones 
> recommends converting 
> > to greyscale directly after doing the B&W conversion of a color 
> file and then doing levels, 
> > curves, etc. in greyscale mode.  Doing it that way I'd lose out on 
> all of the increased 
> > control I have over the B&W image using layers that are only 
> possible in RGB space.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Chris
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian 
> Chapman" 
> > <brianechapman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris, 
> > > 
> > > This tutorial is an excellent introduction to a couple of the 
> most 
> > > popular methods used to convert an image to black and white.  
> > > 
> > > http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-black-white.htm
> > > 
> > > Any of these methods can be made more flexible by adding 
> > > additional 'conversion' layers (channel mixer, hue layer) and 
> using 
> > > layer masks to allow only portions of each conversion layer to 
> show 
> > > through.  Different methods can also be combined.  I am 
> currently 
> > > writing an article/tutorial describing ways to improve 
> flexibility 
> > > in some of the methods mentioned in the link (I'll post it here 
> when 
> > > I'm done).  Email me offline if you want the first draft or have 
> any 
> > > questions, I'm happy to help.    
> > > 
> > > In my workflow I choose to convert to grayscale mode just before 
> > > printing because I like to work on the image as a black and 
> white 
> > > RGB image so I can make adjustments to the conversion as well as 
> > > other tonal adjustments.  Plus, if you're going to add a toning 
> > > layer (maybe for the K3 with color toning) later you'll need to 
> > > convert back to RGB to do so.  
> > > 
> > > Anyway, I know this was slightly off the printing topic but it's 
> an 
> > > important part of getting good results in print form!
> > > 
> > > Brian
> > > http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
> > > <chriskresser@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Clayton & Paul,
> > > > 
> > > > Thank you so much for your thorough replies.  I'm really much 
> > > closer to understanding 
> > > > how this works, thanks to your generous help.
> > > > 
> > > > It sounds like starting with an r220 and a variable tone MIS 
> ink 
> > > set, along with Paul's ICC 
> > > > profiles and toning curves, is a good way to get my feet wet 
> and 
> > > learn the ropes.  And it 
> > > > sounds like this method can produce very good prints.
> > > > 
> > > > Quick question: I'm assuming I can also use these ICC profiles 
> to 
> > > do a soft-proof of the 
> > > > print in Photoshop.  Is this correct?
> > > > 
> > > > I guess I'll continue to use my Canon MP800 for heavily 
> > > toned/colorized B&W prints until I 
> > > > can afford a 2400.  At that point I'll have more flexible 
> option, 
> > > where I can use RGB/color 
> > > > workflow when printing colorized B&Ws and the ABW/greyscale 
> (or 
> > > QTR RIP) mode when 
> > > > I'm printing "classic" and warm/cool toned B&Ws.
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks again,
> > > > Chris
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> > > Jones" <cj@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Chris,
> > > > > 
> > > > > >I've read over most of your webiste Paul, and also all of 
> the 
> > > > > >articles on Clayton's website. 
> > > > > >I'm not at all sure at what point in the B&W conversion 
> process 
> > > > > >(from my color RAW file) I should convert from RGB to 
> > > greyscale.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I just recently revised article #9 (the 2400 workflow) 
> > > > > 
> > > > >    http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn9.htm
> > > > > 
> > > > > and added more detail to the section on converting to BW.  
> > > Basically
> > > > > the first thing is to apply whatever methods you want to 
> remove 
> > > the
> > > > > color while in RGB, and then change to grayscale mode.  At 
> this 
> > > point
> > > > > the image is ready for any levels, curves and other typical 
> work 
> > > as a
> > > > > BW image.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > >Another question that may help me decide on a printer: with 
> the 
> > > K3 
> > > > > >printers (2400 in particular) is it recommended to also use 
> a 
> > > > > >greyscale workflow for B&W prints, or is it possible to get 
> > > good 
> > > > > >prints using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in RGB 
> > > color 
> > > > > >space...
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think it's possible to get good prints that way, but they 
> of 
> > > course
> > > > > will have a different look and feel.  The ABW mode uses 
> > > primarily the
> > > > > three blacks with colors added only as toners, so the tones 
> are
> > > > > limited to a warm/cool range.  If you wanted, for example, a 
> gold
> > > > > colored tone, or any other hue outside of the grayscale 
> warm/cool
> > > > > range, then the RGB/color controls approach would be 
> required.  
> > > When
> > > > > making BW prints with ABW there is no advantage to keeping 
> the 
> > > image
> > > > > in RGB.  All you have is images that are three times as 
> large.  
> > > When
> > > > > you switch to grayscale the image becomes 1/3 it's former 
> size.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > >How about the 2200 in this regard (though it uses the UC 
> inks 
> > > > > >rather than K3 and is thus not as "archival")?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes, exactly.  The K3 is much better in that regard.   The 
> K3 
> > > printers
> > > > > are a big step forward in technology over the 2200 (and 
> 1280, 
> > > 220 and
> > > > > the rest) for several reasons: better longevity, less 
> bronzing 
> > > and
> > > > > gloss differential on glossy papers, three blacks for much 
> > > better BW
> > > > > prints, and the driver has essentially what is a built in 
> semi-
> > > RIP
> > > > > with it's ABW system.  ABW uses primarily the three blacks, 
> > > adding
> > > > > color inks as toners to create the warm/cool tone you 
> specify 
> > > with the
> > > > > controls.  Using a 3rd party RIP with the 2400 (such as QTR) 
> > > gives
> > > > > even greater control over the inks (for example, eliminating 
> the
> > > > > Yellow from the toning mix).
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Clayton
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Check out this link for sharpening -
http://www.thelightsrightstudio.com/TLRSharpeningToolkit.htm

I always sharpen after resizing/resampling and at that point I use 
two sharpening layers, one some type of high pass, and the other 
some type of usm - both with edge masks (capture in the above 
toolkit).  Both types of sharpening have completely different 
results so I like to compare the two and maybe mix them depending on 
the image and especially the paper.  The matte papers seem to be 
able to take a bit more sharpening than the glossy papers (in their 
various incarnations) without looking over done.  I would print a 
test that uses the same slice of an image with various sharpening 
methods/amounts applied to see what works best with the paper you're 
looking at.  

I've got 2@250G so I think you're more than fine for a while!!

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com

  


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
<chriskresser@...> wrote:
>
> Brian/Clayton,
> 
> I also forgot to ask about sharpening.  I read Clayton's workflow 
for BO article, and unless 
> I missed it I didn't see anything about sharpening.  I've read a 
few different things on the 
> subject, and I know it depends upon the type of sharpening, but 
I've always sharpened 
> after resizing the photo to print dimensions.
> 
> In terms of the color/greyscale question, I guess the best way to 
find out is just to 
> experiment.  I like the idea of saving an RGB version which would 
allow me to make very 
> specific tweaks to the tone in ways that I'm comfortable with, and 
then also saving the 
> flattened greyscale version prepped for proof.  I'm not too 
worried about file space at the 
> moment, since I'm an amateur fine art photographer (not prolific) 
and I've got 2 500 GB 
> drives to store the files on.
> 
> Thanks again for all of your help - it is sincerely appreciated.
> 
> Chris
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian 
Chapman" 
> <brianechapman@> wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> > 
> > As far as I know Clayton's main reason for converting to 
grayscale 
> > mode right after the conversion is disk usage, but I don't want 
to 
> > speak for him (just in case I'm wrong).  As far as preparing the 
> > file for printing, if there are any other disadvantages to 
waiting 
> > until the end of the workflow I haven't run in to them.  You're 
> > right though, keeping the image in RGB allows you to go back at 
any 
> > point in the process and tweak the conversion.  
> > 
> > I think for the most part that you can duplicate most things 
that 
> > are done in the conversion process afterward using levels or 
curves, 
> > but there are times when modifying the relationship between the 
> > color channels is the best way to go.
> > 
> > Brian
> > http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
> > 
> > 
> > --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
> > <chriskresser@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you very much, Brian.  
> > > 
> > > I'm fairly experienced with B&W conversion methods in PS so I 
am 
> > relieved to know that I 
> > > can continue working in that fashion and change to greyscale 
just 
> > before printing.  I like to 
> > > use Hue/Saturation and Selective Color layers just underneath 
the 
> > B&W conversion layer 
> > > (gradient map, channel mixer or whatever) to gain more control 
> > over the B&W tones.  
> > > 
> > > But is there any disadvantage to working this way?  Clayton 
Jones 
> > recommends converting 
> > > to greyscale directly after doing the B&W conversion of a 
color 
> > file and then doing levels, 
> > > curves, etc. in greyscale mode.  Doing it that way I'd lose 
out on 
> > all of the increased 
> > > control I have over the B&W image using layers that are only 
> > possible in RGB space.
> > > 
> > > Best,
> > > Chris
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian 
> > Chapman" 
> > > <brianechapman@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Chris, 
> > > > 
> > > > This tutorial is an excellent introduction to a couple of 
the 
> > most 
> > > > popular methods used to convert an image to black and 
white.  
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-black-
white.htm
> > > > 
> > > > Any of these methods can be made more flexible by adding 
> > > > additional 'conversion' layers (channel mixer, hue layer) 
and 
> > using 
> > > > layer masks to allow only portions of each conversion layer 
to 
> > show 
> > > > through.  Different methods can also be combined.  I am 
> > currently 
> > > > writing an article/tutorial describing ways to improve 
> > flexibility 
> > > > in some of the methods mentioned in the link (I'll post it 
here 
> > when 
> > > > I'm done).  Email me offline if you want the first draft or 
have 
> > any 
> > > > questions, I'm happy to help.    
> > > > 
> > > > In my workflow I choose to convert to grayscale mode just 
before 
> > > > printing because I like to work on the image as a black and 
> > white 
> > > > RGB image so I can make adjustments to the conversion as 
well as 
> > > > other tonal adjustments.  Plus, if you're going to add a 
toning 
> > > > layer (maybe for the K3 with color toning) later you'll need 
to 
> > > > convert back to RGB to do so.  
> > > > 
> > > > Anyway, I know this was slightly off the printing topic but 
it's 
> > an 
> > > > important part of getting good results in print form!
> > > > 
> > > > Brian
> > > > http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In 
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chriskjezp" 
> > > > <chriskresser@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Clayton & Paul,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thank you so much for your thorough replies.  I'm really 
much 
> > > > closer to understanding 
> > > > > how this works, thanks to your generous help.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It sounds like starting with an r220 and a variable tone 
MIS 
> > ink 
> > > > set, along with Paul's ICC 
> > > > > profiles and toning curves, is a good way to get my feet 
wet 
> > and 
> > > > learn the ropes.  And it 
> > > > > sounds like this method can produce very good prints.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Quick question: I'm assuming I can also use these ICC 
profiles 
> > to 
> > > > do a soft-proof of the 
> > > > > print in Photoshop.  Is this correct?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I guess I'll continue to use my Canon MP800 for heavily 
> > > > toned/colorized B&W prints until I 
> > > > > can afford a 2400.  At that point I'll have more flexible 
> > option, 
> > > > where I can use RGB/color 
> > > > > workflow when printing colorized B&Ws and the 
ABW/greyscale 
> > (or 
> > > > QTR RIP) mode when 
> > > > > I'm printing "classic" and warm/cool toned B&Ws.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > Chris
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> > > > Jones" <cj@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello Chris,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > >I've read over most of your webiste Paul, and also all 
of 
> > the 
> > > > > > >articles on Clayton's website. 
> > > > > > >I'm not at all sure at what point in the B&W conversion 
> > process 
> > > > > > >(from my color RAW file) I should convert from RGB to 
> > > > greyscale.  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I just recently revised article #9 (the 2400 workflow) 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >    http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn9.htm
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > and added more detail to the section on converting to 
BW.  
> > > > Basically
> > > > > > the first thing is to apply whatever methods you want to 
> > remove 
> > > > the
> > > > > > color while in RGB, and then change to grayscale mode.  
At 
> > this 
> > > > point
> > > > > > the image is ready for any levels, curves and other 
typical 
> > work 
> > > > as a
> > > > > > BW image.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > >Another question that may help me decide on a printer: 
with 
> > the 
> > > > K3 
> > > > > > >printers (2400 in particular) is it recommended to also 
use 
> > a 
> > > > > > >greyscale workflow for B&W prints, or is it possible to 
get 
> > > > good 
> > > > > > >prints using an RGB workflow and applying any toning in 
RGB 
> > > > color 
> > > > > > >space...
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I think it's possible to get good prints that way, but 
they 
> > of 
> > > > course
> > > > > > will have a different look and feel.  The ABW mode uses 
> > > > primarily the
> > > > > > three blacks with colors added only as toners, so the 
tones 
> > are
> > > > > > limited to a warm/cool range.  If you wanted, for 
example, a 
> > gold
> > > > > > colored tone, or any other hue outside of the grayscale 
> > warm/cool
> > > > > > range, then the RGB/color controls approach would be 
> > required.  
> > > > When
> > > > > > making BW prints with ABW there is no advantage to 
keeping 
> > the 
> > > > image
> > > > > > in RGB.  All you have is images that are three times as 
> > large.  
> > > > When
> > > > > > you switch to grayscale the image becomes 1/3 it's 
former 
> > size.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > >How about the 2200 in this regard (though it uses the 
UC 
> > inks 
> > > > > > >rather than K3 and is thus not as "archival")?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Yes, exactly.  The K3 is much better in that regard.   
The 
> > K3 
> > > > printers
> > > > > > are a big step forward in technology over the 2200 (and 
> > 1280, 
> > > > 220 and
> > > > > > the rest) for several reasons: better longevity, less 
> > bronzing 
> > > > and
> > > > > > gloss differential on glossy papers, three blacks for 
much 
> > > > better BW
> > > > > > prints, and the driver has essentially what is a built 
in 
> > semi-
> > > > RIP
> > > > > > with it's ABW system.  ABW uses primarily the three 
blacks, 
> > > > adding
> > > > > > color inks as toners to create the warm/cool tone you 
> > specify 
> > > > with the
> > > > > > controls.  Using a 3rd party RIP with the 2400 (such as 
QTR) 
> > > > gives
> > > > > > even greater control over the inks (for example, 
eliminating 

> > the
> > > > > > Yellow from the toning mix).
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Clayton
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Chris,

>...It sounds like starting with an r220 and a variable tone MIS 
> ink set, along with Paul's ICC profiles and toning curves, 
> is a good way to get my feet wet and learn the ropes. 

> Quick question: I'm assuming I can also use these ICC profiles 
> to do a soft-proof of the print in Photoshop. Is this correct?

The ICCs made with Roy Harrington's "Create ICC-RGB" program will provide
soft proofing with one caveat (as I understand it):  the curves set that is
embedded in the ICC must have at least one of its color curves that has no
flat spots.  Occasionally curves I make do not meet this criteria.  

I do think the 220 is an excellent way to get into digital B&W printing, and
I think the workflows that use the ICCs made possible by Roy's program give
a state of the art workflow.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hello Andre,

>>Yes, exactly.  The K3 is much better in that regard.   The K3 
>printers are a big step forward in technology over the 2200 (and 
>1280, 220 and the rest) for several reasons: better longevity, 

>I don't know if I'm reading this correctly and maybe you can light 
>my lamp, but regarding longevity I fail to see how a printer (Epson 
>R220 included) loaded with Ebony black, printing in B.O. mode on the 
>right paper would not be about the biggest step foward in print 
>longevity.  Unless, of course, you were talking about the original 
>six colors dye inkset of the R220.

Yes, I was referring to the printers as supplied by epson.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Chris,

>But is there any disadvantage to working this way?  Clayton Jones 
>recommends converting to greyscale directly after doing the B&W 
>conversion of a color file and then doing levels, curves, etc. in 
>greyscale mode.  Doing it that way I'd lose out on all of the 
>increased control I have over the B&W image using layers that are 
>only possible in RGB space.

My approach assumes that a BW print is made from a grayscale image. 
It's a very straightforward and simple approach.  Obviously if you
want to do fancy things with colors and layers that can only be done
with an RGB file, then you will have to use an RGB file.  

It seems obvious to me that if you want to do things with colors, then
you need a color file.  And likewise, if you don't want to do things
with colors, then there is no need for a color file.  It really is
that simple.

The reason I change to grayscale is I don't do things with colors, and
therefore don't see any reason to use three times more file space than
is necessary.  

The reason I change to grayscale before doing the work on the image,
is that whatever operations are done take less time (because the file
is smaller).  I don't see any reason to take more time than is necessary.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Brian,

>As far as I know Clayton's main reason for converting to grayscale 
>mode right after the conversion is disk usage...

Also because the various operations done to the file go much quicker
with the smaller size.  As I explained to Chris, since I don't do
things with color there is no need to stay in RGB.  Reducing disk
usage is not a specific goal, but I see no reason to use 3 times more
space (and make the work go slower) if it isn't needed.  

As for being able to tweak the color2bw settings later in the work, I
haven't ever felt the need to do that.  I give careful consideration
to that stage in the beginning.  From experience I can tell from
looking at the various settings what I'll be able to accomplish
tonally.  So I make my choices and live with the result.  

I basically think and work in grayscale.  It's a simple, efficient and
very effective workflow.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Chris,

>I also forgot to ask about sharpening.  I read Clayton's workflow 
>for BO article, and unless I missed it I didn't see anything about 
>sharpening.  

The article is primarily focused in the BO printing technique.
Sharpening by itself is a huge subject.  There are many different
approaches, and entire chapters of thick books have been devoted to
it.  Most of the material in the articles is devoted to printing
techniques.  There is little if any about image manipulation.  That's
a whole 'nother ball of wax.

BTW, please trim the excess text off the bottom of future posts to the
forum.  Otherwise they grow very long and increase bandwidth/download
time.

Glad you're finding the forum a helpful place.  Before long you'll be
helping others get started <g>.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Chris,

>I think I'm finally starting to understand all of the theory here.  

>The Epson 2200 seems like it could be ideal because...

>The other option would be to get the r220...

>What would you do?


Wow, what a question <g>.  First, while you may be getting the broad
concepts, the "devil is in the details" - implementing these things is
an entirely different matter.  There is a huge amount to learn yet, so
it may be too soon to make a final decision.  I think it's safe to say
that each of the techniques that have been discussed have people using
them as their primary approach.  So they all produce good results and
their various pros and cons appeal to different people with their
unique needs, goals, temperament and inclinations.  Point is I think
some hands on experimenting is in order before someone can determine
which method he/she will like the best.

The big advantage of the 220 is it's so inexpensive.  It's the least
expensive way to get started and try all the different approaches you
might want to try.  You could even get two of them (color ink in one,
grayscale in another) for less than a 2200 and reduce cart swapping as
you try various things.  You can put any kind of ink you want in them
and can try all the different techniques.

There is no advantage to the 2200 other than bigger prints. 

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

" . . . would you get the MIS color inks or just stick with the Epson inks?"

Stick with the Epson inks. MIS has historically had significant quality 
control issues. I used MIS inks for about five years, I'd guess I returned 
about 20% of the cartridges because of one problem or another (leaking ink, 
printer didn't recognize cartridge, magenta tints, etc.). Worse yet, when 
you have a problem you don't always associate it with a bad cartridge so you 
tear your hair out trying to figure out what the problem is, only to 
eventually discover that MIS got a bad batch of ink. I switched to Epson UC 
inks in my 2200 about a year ago except that I kept MIS Eboni for the black 
position. The Epson inks have been uniformly perfect, no problems at all. 
Just last month I had to return four new Eboni cartridges because they 
didn't fit properly in the printer. Not to mention the fact that with QTR 
you can make excellent b&w prints on a 2200 using the Epson inks.

I hate to criticize MIS, they're very nice people and have always been 
prompt in giving me credit for bad inks, haven't created any hassles, 
haven't even required that the bad cartridges be returned. But you asked and 
there's no getting around the fact that they've had QC issues for quite some 
time.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "chriskjezp" <chriskresser@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] strategy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@...> wrote:

> The big advantage of the 220 is it's so inexpensive.  It's the least
> expensive way to get started and try all the different approaches you
> might want to try.  You could even get two of them (color ink in one,
> grayscale in another) for less than a 2200 and reduce cart swapping as
> you try various things.  You can put any kind of ink you want in them
> and can try all the different techniques.

Clayton,

Thank you so much for all of your thorough replies.  You've really helped 
clarify things for me
and I appreciate it very much.

I know this is slightly OT, and since you print in B&W you may not know the 
answer, but if
you were to get a 220 and leave the color ink in would you get the MIS color 
inks or just stick
with the Epson inks?  If I just stuck with one printer (to save space), is 
there any problem with
swapping cartridges other than the obvious hassle?

Thanks,
Chris






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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

> The big advantage of the 220 is it's so inexpensive.  It's the least
> expensive way to get started and try all the different approaches you
> might want to try.  You could even get two of them (color ink in one,
> grayscale in another) for less than a 2200 and reduce cart swapping as
> you try various things.  You can put any kind of ink you want in them
> and can try all the different techniques.

Clayton,

Thank you so much for all of your thorough replies.  You've really helped clarify things for me 
and I appreciate it very much.

I know this is slightly OT, and since you print in B&W you may not know the answer, but if 
you were to get a 220 and leave the color ink in would you get the MIS color inks or just stick 
with the Epson inks?  If I just stuck with one printer (to save space), is there any problem with 
swapping cartridges other than the obvious hassle?

Thanks,
Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:
>
> There is no advantage to the 2200 other than bigger prints. 

Forgot to ask: doesn't the 2200 have a smaller nozzle than the 220 (which I believe would be 
an advantage)?  The other thing that appealed to me was the ability to leave the EPSON color 
inks (or MIS color inks) in and use either BO printing or QTR for B&W work without sacrificing 
the color capability.

I don't really have the space for 2 printers in my office right now, though I did like your 
suggestion of getting two 220s!

Chris

Hello Chris,

You would not want to use the 220 OEM inks because they are dye.  They
should be replaced with MIS pigment color inks, probably the PRO
series (someone else please verify this, I'm out of my area of
expertise here).  Replace the K/C/M/LC/LM/Y with K/LK/C/M/LC/LM.  With
these you could use QTR to use primarily the blacks with colors as toners.

For grayscale inks either the R2 inks in various mixtures, with or
without QTR and/or curves/profiles, or the 3D series, etc.



>Forgot to ask: doesn't the 2200 have a smaller nozzle than the 220
>(which I believe would be an advantage)?  

If you mean the droplet size, no I don't think it'smaller than the
220.  The 2200 has 4pl droplets, I'm not sure what the 220 has - it
may even be 3.5.  Either way, that's not the issue.  The 2200 is a
slightly higher precision macine I think.  I say that only because the
2200 BO prints have a slightly finer dither pattern than my R200, the
precursor to the 220.  I think it's a non-issue for all practical
purposes.


>The other thing that appealed to me was the ability to leave the
>EPSON color inks (or MIS color inks) in and use either BO printing or
QTR for B&W work without sacrificing the color capability.

For color printing you would still want pigment inks for longevity,
even if you stick with K/C/M/LC/LM/Y.  That is one advantage of the
2200 because it has 7 ink positions, which adds the 2nd black (LK). 
Doing that with the 220 would eliminate the 1st option above.  You
really need at least 2 blacks for that.  So if that is more important
then you might want to go for the 2200.

In that case you still might want to replace the Epson UC inks with
MIS colors because the latest MIS inks are more lightfast than UC. 
The 2200 UC inks, from what I gathered from posts here, were never a
very satisfactory solution for BW prints due to metamerism and
longevity issues.  The K3 inks and the MIS equivalents are gaining
much greater acceptance.

A number of people here are using the 2200 for some very ingenious ink
combinations, driven with a RIP of course.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

"From what I understand, this is only true with matte papers.  Is this your 
experience?"

It could be but I don't know for sure. I use only matte papers out of 
preference, I don't care for glossy and semi-gloss papers.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "chriskjezp" <chriskresser@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] strategy


>Not to mention the fact that with QTR
> you can make excellent b&w prints on a 2200 using the Epson inks.

From what I understand, this is only true with matte papers.  Is this your 
experience?

Thanks,
Chris






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
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Just another point of view, I have used MIS inks in my 1160 for over 5
years now.Started with the original quadtones and Somerset Velvet.I've
never had a bad cart.The only problem for me has been cost.A few
13x19's suck em dry real fast.Just bought their spongeless carts and
am going to start buying bulk ink from MIS.

DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Ellis"
<bellis60@...> wrote:
>
> " . . . would you get the MIS color inks or just stick with the
Epson inks?"
> 
> Stick with the Epson inks. MIS has historically had significant quality 
> control issues. I used MIS inks for about five years, I'd guess I
returned 
> about 20% of the cartridges because of one problem or another
(leaking ink, 
> printer didn't recognize cartridge, magenta tints, etc.). Worse yet,
when 
> you have a problem you don't always associate it with a bad
cartridge so you 
> tear your hair out trying to figure out what the problem is, only to 
> eventually discover that MIS got a bad batch of ink. I switched to
Epson UC 
> inks in my 2200 about a year ago except that I kept MIS Eboni for
the black 
> position. The Epson inks have been uniformly perfect, no problems at
all. 
> Just last month I had to return four new Eboni cartridges because they 
> didn't fit properly in the printer. Not to mention the fact that
with QTR 
> you can make excellent b&w prints on a 2200 using the Epson inks.
> 
> I hate to criticize MIS, they're very nice people and have always been 
> prompt in giving me credit for bad inks, haven't created any hassles, 
> haven't even required that the bad cartridges be returned. But you
asked and 
> there's no getting around the fact that they've had QC issues for
quite some 
> time.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "chriskjezp" <chriskresser@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] strategy
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
> <cj@> wrote:
> 
> > The big advantage of the 220 is it's so inexpensive.  It's the least
> > expensive way to get started and try all the different approaches you
> > might want to try.  You could even get two of them (color ink in one,
> > grayscale in another) for less than a 2200 and reduce cart swapping as
> > you try various things.  You can put any kind of ink you want in them
> > and can try all the different techniques.
> 
> Clayton,
> 
> Thank you so much for all of your thorough replies.  You've really
helped 
> clarify things for me
> and I appreciate it very much.
> 
> I know this is slightly OT, and since you print in B&W you may not
know the 
> answer, but if
> you were to get a 220 and leave the color ink in would you get the
MIS color 
> inks or just stick
> with the Epson inks?  If I just stuck with one printer (to save
space), is 
> there any problem with
> swapping cartridges other than the obvious hassle?
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as 
> they are often being updated.
> 
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> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
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> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
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> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

> You would not want to use the 220 OEM inks because they are dye.  They
> should be replaced with MIS pigment color inks, probably the PRO
> series (someone else please verify this, I'm out of my area of
> expertise here).  Replace the K/C/M/LC/LM/Y with K/LK/C/M/LC/LM.  With
> these you could use QTR to use primarily the blacks with colors as toners.
 
> For grayscale inks either the R2 inks in various mixtures, with or
> without QTR and/or curves/profiles, or the 3D series, etc.

It was my understanding that QTR can only be used with the r220 and Mediastreet inks 
(this is what it says on Roy's website, and was confirmed by him via email).  Is this 
configuration you're suggesting (220 with QTR) possible, but simply "unsupported"?
 
> In that case you still might want to replace the Epson UC inks with
> MIS colors because the latest MIS inks are more lightfast than UC. 
> The 2200 UC inks, from what I gathered from posts here, were never a
> very satisfactory solution for BW prints due to metamerism and
> longevity issues.  The K3 inks and the MIS equivalents are gaining
> much greater acceptance.

If someone who does color printing could tell me which MIS color inks would be best for 
my needs, I'd appreciate it. 
 
> A number of people here are using the 2200 for some very ingenious ink
> combinations, driven with a RIP of course.

I'd be curious to hear from any 2200 users regarding their combos.  I will also do more 
searching in the archives.

Thank you for your continuing support, generosity and patience Clayton!

Chris

>Not to mention the fact that with QTR 
> you can make excellent b&w prints on a 2200 using the Epson inks.

From what I understand, this is only true with matte papers.  Is this your experience?

Thanks,
Chris

Hello Chris,

>It was my understanding that QTR can only be used with the r220 and 
>Mediastreet inks (this is what it says on Roy's website, and was 
>confirmed by him via email).  Is this configuration you're 
>suggesting (220 with QTR) possible, but simply "unsupported"?

It has been my impression that QTR does work with the 220, and I don't
know how the software would know what kind of ink is installed. 
However, this is not my area of expertise so I can't say for sure.  At
the very least I would seek further clarification on this.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

There must have been some misunderstanding.  QTR works quite well with the MIS R2 ink set on the 220 printer.  I use both the b&w inkset and the MIS PRO inks with the 220, swapping them out when I need to print color.
   
  The 220 is fine little printer, at a very reasonable price that produces wonderful results.
   
  Tom Baker

chriskjezp <chriskresser@...> wrote:
          
> You would not want to use the 220 OEM inks because they are dye. They
> should be replaced with MIS pigment color inks, probably the PRO
> series (someone else please verify this, I'm out of my area of
> expertise here). Replace the K/C/M/LC/LM/Y with K/LK/C/M/LC/LM. With
> these you could use QTR to use primarily the blacks with colors as toners.

> For grayscale inks either the R2 inks in various mixtures, with or
> without QTR and/or curves/profiles, or the 3D series, etc.

It was my understanding that QTR can only be used with the r220 and Mediastreet inks 
(this is what it says on Roy's website, and was confirmed by him via email). Is this 
configuration you're suggesting (220 with QTR) possible, but simply "unsupported"?

> In that case you still might want to replace the Epson UC inks with
> MIS colors because the latest MIS inks are more lightfast than UC. 
> The 2200 UC inks, from what I gathered from posts here, were never a
> very satisfactory solution for BW prints due to metamerism and
> longevity issues. The K3 inks and the MIS equivalents are gaining
> much greater acceptance.

If someone who does color printing could tell me which MIS color inks would be best for 
my needs, I'd appreciate it. 

> A number of people here are using the 2200 for some very ingenious ink
> combinations, driven with a RIP of course.

I'd be curious to hear from any 2200 users regarding their combos. I will also do more 
searching in the archives.

Thank you for your continuing support, generosity and patience Clayton!

Chris



         


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> wrote:
>
> There must have been some misunderstanding.  QTR works quite well with the MIS R2 ink 
set on the 220 printer.  I use both the b&w inkset and the MIS PRO inks with the 220, 
swapping them out when I need to print color.
>    

Tom,

This is exactly what I was hoping to hear.  I think this seals the deal for me.  220 w/ MIS PRO 
for color and MIS R2 for B&W.  Now I can get back to taking pictures and printing them!

Any particular tips I should be aware of when swapping cartridges, i.e. storing them or 
cleaning them so the ink doesn't dry/clog?

Thanks,
chris

Just put a small piece of tape over the opeing and set them upright in a safe place.  I just use a small box for this.
   
  It is probably wise to do one or two cleaning cycles when you change the inks out. Then you're good to go.  The entire swap process should take about 3-5 minutes.  
   
  Have fun.
   
  Tom Baker

chriskjezp <chriskresser@...> wrote:
          --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> wrote:
>
> There must have been some misunderstanding. QTR works quite well with the MIS R2 ink 
set on the 220 printer. I use both the b&w inkset and the MIS PRO inks with the 220, 
swapping them out when I need to print color.
> 

Tom,

This is exactly what I was hoping to hear. I think this seals the deal for me. 220 w/ MIS PRO 
for color and MIS R2 for B&W. Now I can get back to taking pictures and printing them!

Any particular tips I should be aware of when swapping cartridges, i.e. storing them or 
cleaning them so the ink doesn't dry/clog?

Thanks,
chris



         


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> wrote:
>
> Just put a small piece of tape over the opeing and set them upright in a safe place.  I just 
use a small box for this.
>    
>   It is probably wise to do one or two cleaning cycles when you change the inks out. Then 
you're good to go.  The entire swap process should take about 3-5 minutes.  

Tom,

If you'll indulge me with one more OT question... do you use a special profile or ICC with the 
MIS Pro inks and r220, or just the canned Epson driver and paper profiles?

Thanks again,
Chris

I've gotten great b&w results with both the standard Epson driver, as well as ICC's created with Roy's Create ICC program.  A little testing is in order either way.  If you start with the standard Epson driver try different paper selections in the driver when you print.  You can send it either RGB or gray scale images.
   
  Color printing with the MIS Pro inks is another matter.  The problem is that the MIS inks are pigment and the stock inks for the 220 are dye. So, again, some testing is in order.  You can try different paper settings as well as using the color controls in the Epson driver.  I make my own profiles, so I don't use the color controls.  You should be able to get good prints without the profiles, however.
   
  BTW, you can use a scanner to make the ICC profiles for Roy's package.  So, if you've got a scanner, it's not a bad way to go.
   
  Good luck.  
  Tom Baker
  

chriskjezp <chriskresser@...> wrote:
          --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> wrote:
>
> Just put a small piece of tape over the opeing and set them upright in a safe place. I just 
use a small box for this.
> 
> It is probably wise to do one or two cleaning cycles when you change the inks out. Then 
you're good to go. The entire swap process should take about 3-5 minutes. 

Tom,

If you'll indulge me with one more OT question... do you use a special profile or ICC with the 
MIS Pro inks and r220, or just the canned Epson driver and paper profiles?

Thanks again,
Chris



         


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> There is no advantage to the 2200 other than bigger prints. 

I have a 220 at home with the MIS PRO inkset. The color prints have
noticably more dithering than what I get from the 2100 in my office, also
with the MIS PRO inks. I think this is because the 220 doesn't have a light
black.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Hello,

I've decided to load our Stylus Pro 7500 with Piezo K6 and buy it in  
bottles.
However, when looking at the Inkjet Mall site I'm getting a bit  
confused.
I can't find any information which shade to exlude from the K7 inks.
K2, K4 or K7 any suggestions?

Do we need to flush the printer after only have used MIS UT 1 inks?
Any guess when the sepia ink comes in bottles?

Thanks,

Hans

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia <chiahans@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hello,
> 
> I've decided to load our Stylus Pro 7500 with Piezo K6 and buy it in  
> bottles.
> However, when looking at the Inkjet Mall site I'm getting a bit  
> confused.
> I can't find any information which shade to exlude from the K7 inks.
> K2, K4 or K7 any suggestions?
> 
> Do we need to flush the printer after only have used MIS UT 1 inks?
> Any guess when the sepia ink comes in bottles?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Hans
>

Hans,

You should leave out the lightest ink K7.   It's also important which ink goes
in which slot (at least if you plan on using QTR with the supplied profiles).

I'd recommend just the Initial Ink Load of the new inks, not flushing the printer
with cleaning ink.  If you switch to sepia you probably have to do this again.

You'd have to ask inkjetmall when the sepia ink will be in bottles.   They have the
inks so it should be just a packaging issue.

Roy

You're confused??  I think the two big sites I visit are the most
un-organized I've seen. I got so confused that I tried the shopping
assisatant and got a confusing answer.

gar

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Hans &
Chia
  Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 6:57 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo K6 and bottles


  Hello,

  I've decided to load our Stylus Pro 7500 with Piezo K6 and buy it in
  bottles.
  However, when looking at the Inkjet Mall site I'm getting a bit
  confused.
  I can't find any information which shade to exlude from the K7 inks.
  K2, K4 or K7 any suggestions?

  Do we need to flush the printer after only have used MIS UT 1 inks?
  Any guess when the sepia ink comes in bottles?

  Thanks,

  Hans


  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Roy,

Nice to know that you don't have to flush the printer.
As I would like to go a little bit warmer (not split tone) than "dead  
neutral" I thought it might be possible to change some of the carts.
The question is which to switch and I suppose I have to do a new  
linearization as well.
Or can you use QTR with the supplied profiles for this purpose?
Have you heard anything about clogging or ink separation problems  
with K6/7 inks?

Thanks,

Hans



6 aug 2006 kl. 16.50 skrev Roy Harrington:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia  
> <chiahans@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I've decided to load our Stylus Pro 7500 with Piezo K6 and buy it in
> > bottles.
> > However, when looking at the Inkjet Mall site I'm getting a bit
> > confused.
> > I can't find any information which shade to exlude from the K7 inks.
> > K2, K4 or K7 any suggestions?
> >
> > Do we need to flush the printer after only have used MIS UT 1 inks?
> > Any guess when the sepia ink comes in bottles?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Hans
> >
>
> Hans,
>
> You should leave out the lightest ink K7. It's also important which  
> ink goes
> in which slot (at least if you plan on using QTR with the supplied  
> profiles).
>
> I'd recommend just the Initial Ink Load of the new inks, not  
> flushing the printer
> with cleaning ink. If you switch to sepia you probably have to do  
> this again.
>
> You'd have to ask inkjetmall when the sepia ink will be in bottles.  
> They have the
> inks so it should be just a packaging issue.
>
> Roy
>
>
> 

Atelier Pictoform
Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L�fqvist
Hed�sgatan 5
SE-412 53 G�teborg
Sweden

+46 (0)31 181414
Mobile: 073 974 44 24

(Bes�k/visit Hed�sgatan 6)

http:/www.pictoform.nu

http:/www.artphotocollection.com
http:/www.etsabild.se
http:/www.hotelartgallery.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been using the K6 in a 7000 for about 6 months and there is no
clogging and absulutely no ink seperation problems. They went back to
the woodshed and resolved those issues. I can't speak more highly of
this inkset. It seems the product of a decade of research. It is the
best in my opinion as long as you don't need glossy media.

Now with all rag paper (and especially non-coated exotic rice papers
and such) your nozzles on Epson piezo machines can and do occasionally
get clogged. This is due not to the inks but to the fibers of the
media dislodging and accumulating in the head nozzles. If you brush
off each sheet of this kind of paper ( I use a drafting brush some use
cotton gloves, etc) you will be in pretty good shape. 100% cotton
papers contain a lot of loose cotton dust, and that is just a reality.
But as far as the Piezo Tone K6/K7 inks go, they are FAR superior to
Ultrachome in the realm of having to do constant nozzle checks and
head cleanings. I clean my 9600 with UC 10 times more than my K6
machine when using rag media.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia
<chiahans@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Roy,
> 
> Nice to know that you don't have to flush the printer.
> As I would like to go a little bit warmer (not split tone) than "dead  
> neutral" I thought it might be possible to change some of the carts.
> The question is which to switch and I suppose I have to do a new  
> linearization as well.
> Or can you use QTR with the supplied profiles for this purpose?
> Have you heard anything about clogging or ink separation problems  
> with K6/7 inks?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Hans
> 
> 
> 
> 6 aug 2006 kl. 16.50 skrev Roy Harrington:
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia  
> > <chiahans@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I've decided to load our Stylus Pro 7500 with Piezo K6 and buy it in
> > > bottles.
> > > However, when looking at the Inkjet Mall site I'm getting a bit
> > > confused.
> > > I can't find any information which shade to exlude from the K7 inks.
> > > K2, K4 or K7 any suggestions?
> > >
> > > Do we need to flush the printer after only have used MIS UT 1 inks?
> > > Any guess when the sepia ink comes in bottles?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Hans
> > >
> >
> > Hans,
> >
> > You should leave out the lightest ink K7. It's also important which  
> > ink goes
> > in which slot (at least if you plan on using QTR with the supplied  
> > profiles).
> >
> > I'd recommend just the Initial Ink Load of the new inks, not  
> > flushing the printer
> > with cleaning ink. If you switch to sepia you probably have to do  
> > this again.
> >
> > You'd have to ask inkjetmall when the sepia ink will be in bottles.  
> > They have the
> > inks so it should be just a packaging issue.
> >
> > Roy
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> Atelier Pictoform
> Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-Löfqvist
> Hedåsgatan 5
> SE-412 53 Göteborg
> Sweden
> 
> +46 (0)31 181414
> Mobile: 073 974 44 24
> 
> (Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)
> 
> http:/www.pictoform.nu
> 
> http:/www.artphotocollection.com
> http:/www.etsabild.se
> http:/www.hotelartgallery.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

John,

I have an Epson 7000 standing unused (and tubes filled with cleaning fluid) for a few 
months and have thought about loading it with Piezography K6.
The only thing is I like a slightly warmer tone than "neutral", something between neutral 
and PiezoTone Warm Neutral.
Can you or someone else give me some advices on which inks to load, which software to 
use and which paper gives the best print?

Thanks in advance,
Bjorn




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> 
wrote:

>
> I've been using the K6 in a 7000 for about 6 months and there is no
> clogging and absulutely no ink seperation problems. They went back to
> the woodshed and resolved those issues. I can't speak more highly of
> this inkset. It seems the product of a decade of research. It is the
> best in my opinion as long as you don't need glossy media.
> 
> Now with all rag paper (and especially non-coated exotic rice papers
> and such) your nozzles on Epson piezo machines can and do occasionally
> get clogged. This is due not to the inks but to the fibers of the
> media dislodging and accumulating in the head nozzles. If you brush
> off each sheet of this kind of paper ( I use a drafting brush some use
> cotton gloves, etc) you will be in pretty good shape. 100% cotton
> papers contain a lot of loose cotton dust, and that is just a reality.
> But as far as the Piezo Tone K6/K7 inks go, they are FAR superior to
> Ultrachome in the realm of having to do constant nozzle checks and
> head cleanings. I clean my 9600 with UC 10 times more than my K6
> machine when using rag media.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia
> <chiahans@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Roy,
> > 
> > Nice to know that you don't have to flush the printer.
> > As I would like to go a little bit warmer (not split tone) than "dead  
> > neutral" I thought it might be possible to change some of the carts.
> > The question is which to switch and I suppose I have to do a new  
> > linearization as well.
> > Or can you use QTR with the supplied profiles for this purpose?
> > Have you heard anything about clogging or ink separation problems  
> > with K6/7 inks?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Hans
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 6 aug 2006 kl. 16.50 skrev Roy Harrington:
> > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia  
> > > <chiahans@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > I've decided to load our Stylus Pro 7500 with Piezo K6 and buy it in
> > > > bottles.
> > > > However, when looking at the Inkjet Mall site I'm getting a bit
> > > > confused.
> > > > I can't find any information which shade to exlude from the K7 inks.
> > > > K2, K4 or K7 any suggestions?
> > > >
> > > > Do we need to flush the printer after only have used MIS UT 1 inks?
> > > > Any guess when the sepia ink comes in bottles?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Hans
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hans,
> > >
> > > You should leave out the lightest ink K7. It's also important which  
> > > ink goes
> > > in which slot (at least if you plan on using QTR with the supplied  
> > > profiles).
> > >
> > > I'd recommend just the Initial Ink Load of the new inks, not  
> > > flushing the printer
> > > with cleaning ink. If you switch to sepia you probably have to do  
> > > this again.
> > >
> > > You'd have to ask inkjetmall when the sepia ink will be in bottles.  
> > > They have the
> > > inks so it should be just a packaging issue.
> > >
> > > Roy
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > 
> > Atelier Pictoform
> > Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-Löfqvist
> > Hedåsgatan 5
> > SE-412 53 Göteborg
> > Sweden
> > 
> > +46 (0)31 181414
> > Mobile: 073 974 44 24
> > 
> > (Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)
> > 
> > http:/www.pictoform.nu
> > 
> > http:/www.artphotocollection.com
> > http:/www.etsabild.se
> > http:/www.hotelartgallery.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Hi Chia,

I just stumbled on this.  Anybody you know?  What country is "nu"?

Love, Glenn

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Hans & Chia" <chiahans@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezo K6 and bottles

Sorry and Oops!  This was meant as a forward to another Chia.  

Glenn



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn 
Thureson" <glennthureson@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Chia,
> 
> I just stumbled on this.  Anybody you know?  What country is "nu"?
> 
> Love, Glenn
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Hans & Chia" <chiahans@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 5:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezo K6 and bottles
>

Hi Glenn

Chia, it's me and Hans is my husband. We are both photographers and  
live and work in Sweden, in Göteborg (Gothenburg, the city of  
Hasselblad).

"nu" is "Niue, a tiny, impoverished island in the South  
Pacific"  ( www.post-gazette.com/pg/06088/677770-96.stm)

Where are you?

Love
Chia

8 aug 2006 kl. 23.03 skrev Glenn Thureson:




> Hi Chia,
>
> I just stumbled on this. Anybody you know? What country is "nu"?
>
>



>
> Love, Glenn
>
> -








Atelier Pictoform
Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-Löfqvist
Hedåsgatan 5
SE-412 53 Göteborg
Sweden
+46 (0)31 181414
Mobile: 073 974 44 24

(Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)

http:/www.pictoform.nu

http:/www.artphotocollection.com
http:/www.etsabild.se
http:/www.hotelartgallery.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bjorn,

The only way to customize the tone you want is to mix the inks.  The new Sepia
Inks are pretty warm.  You can use all the standard QTR software and curves if
you mix Neutral K6 inks and Sepia K6 inks.  For instance, a little warm might be
85% Neutral + 15% Sepia.   You have to mix each of the gray inks.  There is only
one black ink so that need not be mixed.  I don't think you'll get decent results
but just putting in some neutral carts and some sepia carts since the densities
are all different -- especially on the 7000.   On a newer printer with smaller drop
sizes and 7 inks I might be tempted to try 3 of each color but you'd need completely 
different profiles.

The trouble with both of these ideas is that its pretty much just trial and error
until you get the tone you want.  If you want to go this route I'd buy the Neutral
carts for the 7000 and the 4oz bottles of Sepia.  WIth the syringe suck out some
neutral ink and replace it with some same density sepia ink.  Do this for each
gray cart.  Do about 5% at a time and work up to the warmth you like.  After
mixing in more ink you can withdraw a little to spread on paper with a Q-tip.

All in all its a bit of a pain but this way you can get exactly what you like.
Do as much of this as possible before loading the carts in the printer because its
a lot more difficult to change once the ink is in printer.   Keep good notes so you
can do the same thing again for the next batch of ink.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bjornaagedk" 
<reklamefoto@...> wrote:
>
> 
> John,
> 
> I have an Epson 7000 standing unused (and tubes filled with cleaning fluid) for a 
few 
> months and have thought about loading it with Piezography K6.
> The only thing is I like a slightly warmer tone than "neutral", something between 
neutral 
> and PiezoTone Warm Neutral.
> Can you or someone else give me some advices on which inks to load, which 
software to 
> use and which paper gives the best print?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Bjorn
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@> 

> wrote:
> >
> > I've been using the K6 in a 7000 for about 6 months and there is no
> > clogging and absulutely no ink seperation problems. They went back to
> > the woodshed and resolved those issues. I can't speak more highly of
> > this inkset. It seems the product of a decade of research. It is the
> > best in my opinion as long as you don't need glossy media.
> > 
> > Now with all rag paper (and especially non-coated exotic rice papers
> > and such) your nozzles on Epson piezo machines can and do occasionally
> > get clogged. This is due not to the inks but to the fibers of the
> > media dislodging and accumulating in the head nozzles. If you brush
> > off each sheet of this kind of paper ( I use a drafting brush some use
> > cotton gloves, etc) you will be in pretty good shape. 100% cotton
> > papers contain a lot of loose cotton dust, and that is just a reality.
> > But as far as the Piezo Tone K6/K7 inks go, they are FAR superior to
> > Ultrachome in the realm of having to do constant nozzle checks and
> > head cleanings. I clean my 9600 with UC 10 times more than my K6
> > machine when using rag media.
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia
> > <chiahans@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Roy,
> > > 
> > > Nice to know that you don't have to flush the printer.
> > > As I would like to go a little bit warmer (not split tone) than "dead  
> > > neutral" I thought it might be possible to change some of the carts.
> > > The question is which to switch and I suppose I have to do a new  
> > > linearization as well.
> > > Or can you use QTR with the supplied profiles for this purpose?
> > > Have you heard anything about clogging or ink separation problems  
> > > with K6/7 inks?
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > Hans
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 6 aug 2006 kl. 16.50 skrev Roy Harrington:
> > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia  
> > > > <chiahans@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > I've decided to load our Stylus Pro 7500 with Piezo K6 and buy it in
> > > > > bottles.
> > > > > However, when looking at the Inkjet Mall site I'm getting a bit
> > > > > confused.
> > > > > I can't find any information which shade to exlude from the K7 inks.
> > > > > K2, K4 or K7 any suggestions?
> > > > >
> > > > > Do we need to flush the printer after only have used MIS UT 1 inks?
> > > > > Any guess when the sepia ink comes in bottles?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Hans
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hans,
> > > >
> > > > You should leave out the lightest ink K7. It's also important which  
> > > > ink goes
> > > > in which slot (at least if you plan on using QTR with the supplied  
> > > > profiles).
> > > >
> > > > I'd recommend just the Initial Ink Load of the new inks, not  
> > > > flushing the printer
> > > > with cleaning ink. If you switch to sepia you probably have to do  
> > > > this again.
> > > >
> > > > You'd have to ask inkjetmall when the sepia ink will be in bottles.  
> > > > They have the
> > > > inks so it should be just a packaging issue.
> > > >
> > > > Roy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Atelier Pictoform
> > > Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-Löfqvist
> > > Hedåsgatan 5
> > > SE-412 53 Göteborg
> > > Sweden
> > > 
> > > +46 (0)31 181414
> > > Mobile: 073 974 44 24
> > > 
> > > (Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)
> > > 
> > > http:/www.pictoform.nu
> > > 
> > > http:/www.artphotocollection.com
> > > http:/www.etsabild.se
> > > http:/www.hotelartgallery.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Roy,

Yes, it's sounds really like a pain.
Suppose it's easier to make your own mix if you buy all the ink in  
bottles and can do your trials in smaller quantities. I don't have to  
buy any carts I have a lot of them.
The question now is where do you get the sepia in bottles?
Which paper would you recommend to achive a warm print if you use the  
neutral ink?

Thanks,
Hans



9 aug 2006 kl. 01.49 skrev Roy Harrington:

> Bjorn,
>
> The only way to customize the tone you want is to mix the inks. The  
> new Sepia
> Inks are pretty warm. You can use all the standard QTR software and  
> curves if
> you mix Neutral K6 inks and Sepia K6 inks. For instance, a little  
> warm might be
> 85% Neutral + 15% Sepia. You have to mix each of the gray inks.  
> There is only
> one black ink so that need not be mixed. I don't think you'll get  
> decent results
> but just putting in some neutral carts and some sepia carts since  
> the densities
> are all different -- especially on the 7000. On a newer printer  
> with smaller drop
> sizes and 7 inks I might be tempted to try 3 of each color but  
> you'd need completely
> different profiles.
>
> The trouble with both of these ideas is that its pretty much just  
> trial and error
> until you get the tone you want. If you want to go this route I'd  
> buy the Neutral
> carts for the 7000 and the 4oz bottles of Sepia. WIth the syringe  
> suck out some
> neutral ink and replace it with some same density sepia ink. Do  
> this for each
> gray cart. Do about 5% at a time and work up to the warmth you  
> like. After
> mixing in more ink you can withdraw a little to spread on paper  
> with a Q-tip.
>
> All in all its a bit of a pain but this way you can get exactly  
> what you like.
> Do as much of this as possible before loading the carts in the  
> printer because its
> a lot more difficult to change once the ink is in printer. Keep  
> good notes so you
> can do the same thing again for the next batch of ink.
>
> Roy
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bjornaagedk"
> <reklamefoto@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > John,
> >
> > I have an Epson 7000 standing unused (and tubes filled with  
> cleaning fluid) for a
> few
> > months and have thought about loading it with Piezography K6.
> > The only thing is I like a slightly warmer tone than "neutral",  
> something between
> neutral
> > and PiezoTone Warm Neutral.
> > Can you or someone else give me some advices on which inks to  
> load, which
> software to
> > use and which paper gives the best print?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Bjorn
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I've been using the K6 in a 7000 for about 6 months and there  
> is no
> > > clogging and absulutely no ink seperation problems. They went  
> back to
> > > the woodshed and resolved those issues. I can't speak more  
> highly of
> > > this inkset. It seems the product of a decade of research. It  
> is the
> > > best in my opinion as long as you don't need glossy media.
> > >
> > > Now with all rag paper (and especially non-coated exotic rice  
> papers
> > > and such) your nozzles on Epson piezo machines can and do  
> occasionally
> > > get clogged. This is due not to the inks but to the fibers of the
> > > media dislodging and accumulating in the head nozzles. If you  
> brush
> > > off each sheet of this kind of paper ( I use a drafting brush  
> some use
> > > cotton gloves, etc) you will be in pretty good shape. 100% cotton
> > > papers contain a lot of loose cotton dust, and that is just a  
> reality.
> > > But as far as the Piezo Tone K6/K7 inks go, they are FAR  
> superior to
> > > Ultrachome in the realm of having to do constant nozzle checks and
> > > head cleanings. I clean my 9600 with UC 10 times more than my K6
> > > machine when using rag media.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia
> > > <chiahans@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Roy,
> > > >
> > > > Nice to know that you don't have to flush the printer.
> > > > As I would like to go a little bit warmer (not split tone)  
> than "dead
> > > > neutral" I thought it might be possible to change some of the  
> carts.
> > > > The question is which to switch and I suppose I have to do a new
> > > > linearization as well.
> > > > Or can you use QTR with the supplied profiles for this purpose?
> > > > Have you heard anything about clogging or ink separation  
> problems
> > > > with K6/7 inks?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Hans
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 6 aug 2006 kl. 16.50 skrev Roy Harrington:
> > > >
> > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans &  
> Chia
> > > > > <chiahans@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've decided to load our Stylus Pro 7500 with Piezo K6  
> and buy it in
> > > > > > bottles.
> > > > > > However, when looking at the Inkjet Mall site I'm getting  
> a bit
> > > > > > confused.
> > > > > > I can't find any information which shade to exlude from  
> the K7 inks.
> > > > > > K2, K4 or K7 any suggestions?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do we need to flush the printer after only have used MIS  
> UT 1 inks?
> > > > > > Any guess when the sepia ink comes in bottles?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hans
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hans,
> > > > >
> > > > > You should leave out the lightest ink K7. It's also  
> important which
> > > > > ink goes
> > > > > in which slot (at least if you plan on using QTR with the  
> supplied
> > > > > profiles).
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd recommend just the Initial Ink Load of the new inks, not
> > > > > flushing the printer
> > > > > with cleaning ink. If you switch to sepia you probably have  
> to do
> > > > > this again.
> > > > >
> > > > > You'd have to ask inkjetmall when the sepia ink will be in  
> bottles.
> > > > > They have the
> > > > > inks so it should be just a packaging issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > Roy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Atelier Pictoform
> > > > Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L�fqvist
> > > > Hed�sgatan 5
> > > > SE-412 53 G�teborg
> > > > Sweden
> > > >
> > > > +46 (0)31 181414
> > > > Mobile: 073 974 44 24
> > > >
> > > > (Bes�k/visit Hed�sgatan 6)
> > > >
> > > > http:/www.pictoform.nu
> > > >
> > > > http:/www.artphotocollection.com
> > > > http:/www.etsabild.se
> > > > http:/www.hotelartgallery.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> 

Atelier Pictoform
Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L�fqvist
Hed�sgatan 5
SE-412 53 G�teborg
Sweden

+46 (0)31 181414
Mobile: 073 974 44 24

(Bes�k/visit Hed�sgatan 6)

http:/www.pictoform.nu

http:/www.artphotocollection.com
http:/www.etsabild.se
http:/www.hotelartgallery.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's all an issue for inkjetmall.com -- they have the inks and its a matter of them
making the inks available in bottles.   They also should have the list of papers and
the tonal differences.  In any case though the tone differences are pretty subtle.
I don't think you'll get a "warm" print just the slight differences in paper color.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia <chiahans@...> 
wrote:

>
> Roy,
> 
> Yes, it's sounds really like a pain.
> Suppose it's easier to make your own mix if you buy all the ink in  
> bottles and can do your trials in smaller quantities. I don't have to  
> buy any carts I have a lot of them.
> The question now is where do you get the sepia in bottles?
> Which paper would you recommend to achive a warm print if you use the  
> neutral ink?
> 
> Thanks,
> Hans
> 
> 
> 
> 9 aug 2006 kl. 01.49 skrev Roy Harrington:
> 
> > Bjorn,
> >
> > The only way to customize the tone you want is to mix the inks. The  
> > new Sepia
> > Inks are pretty warm. You can use all the standard QTR software and  
> > curves if
> > you mix Neutral K6 inks and Sepia K6 inks. For instance, a little  
> > warm might be
> > 85% Neutral + 15% Sepia. You have to mix each of the gray inks.  
> > There is only
> > one black ink so that need not be mixed. I don't think you'll get  
> > decent results
> > but just putting in some neutral carts and some sepia carts since  
> > the densities
> > are all different -- especially on the 7000. On a newer printer  
> > with smaller drop
> > sizes and 7 inks I might be tempted to try 3 of each color but  
> > you'd need completely
> > different profiles.
> >
> > The trouble with both of these ideas is that its pretty much just  
> > trial and error
> > until you get the tone you want. If you want to go this route I'd  
> > buy the Neutral
> > carts for the 7000 and the 4oz bottles of Sepia. WIth the syringe  
> > suck out some
> > neutral ink and replace it with some same density sepia ink. Do  
> > this for each
> > gray cart. Do about 5% at a time and work up to the warmth you  
> > like. After
> > mixing in more ink you can withdraw a little to spread on paper  
> > with a Q-tip.
> >
> > All in all its a bit of a pain but this way you can get exactly  
> > what you like.
> > Do as much of this as possible before loading the carts in the  
> > printer because its
> > a lot more difficult to change once the ink is in printer. Keep  
> > good notes so you
> > can do the same thing again for the next batch of ink.
> >
> > Roy
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bjornaagedk"
> > <reklamefoto@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > I have an Epson 7000 standing unused (and tubes filled with  
> > cleaning fluid) for a
> > few
> > > months and have thought about loading it with Piezography K6.
> > > The only thing is I like a slightly warmer tone than "neutral",  
> > something between
> > neutral
> > > and PiezoTone Warm Neutral.
> > > Can you or someone else give me some advices on which inks to  
> > load, which
> > software to
> > > use and which paper gives the best print?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > > Bjorn
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> > <deanwork2003@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've been using the K6 in a 7000 for about 6 months and there  
> > is no
> > > > clogging and absulutely no ink seperation problems. They went  
> > back to
> > > > the woodshed and resolved those issues. I can't speak more  
> > highly of
> > > > this inkset. It seems the product of a decade of research. It  
> > is the
> > > > best in my opinion as long as you don't need glossy media.
> > > >
> > > > Now with all rag paper (and especially non-coated exotic rice  
> > papers
> > > > and such) your nozzles on Epson piezo machines can and do  
> > occasionally
> > > > get clogged. This is due not to the inks but to the fibers of the
> > > > media dislodging and accumulating in the head nozzles. If you  
> > brush
> > > > off each sheet of this kind of paper ( I use a drafting brush  
> > some use
> > > > cotton gloves, etc) you will be in pretty good shape. 100% cotton
> > > > papers contain a lot of loose cotton dust, and that is just a  
> > reality.
> > > > But as far as the Piezo Tone K6/K7 inks go, they are FAR  
> > superior to
> > > > Ultrachome in the realm of having to do constant nozzle checks and
> > > > head cleanings. I clean my 9600 with UC 10 times more than my K6
> > > > machine when using rag media.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia
> > > > <chiahans@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Roy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Nice to know that you don't have to flush the printer.
> > > > > As I would like to go a little bit warmer (not split tone)  
> > than "dead
> > > > > neutral" I thought it might be possible to change some of the  
> > carts.
> > > > > The question is which to switch and I suppose I have to do a new
> > > > > linearization as well.
> > > > > Or can you use QTR with the supplied profiles for this purpose?
> > > > > Have you heard anything about clogging or ink separation  
> > problems
> > > > > with K6/7 inks?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Hans
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 6 aug 2006 kl. 16.50 skrev Roy Harrington:
> > > > >
> > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans &  
> > Chia
> > > > > > <chiahans@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've decided to load our Stylus Pro 7500 with Piezo K6  
> > and buy it in
> > > > > > > bottles.
> > > > > > > However, when looking at the Inkjet Mall site I'm getting  
> > a bit
> > > > > > > confused.
> > > > > > > I can't find any information which shade to exlude from  
> > the K7 inks.
> > > > > > > K2, K4 or K7 any suggestions?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do we need to flush the printer after only have used MIS  
> > UT 1 inks?
> > > > > > > Any guess when the sepia ink comes in bottles?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hans
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hans,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You should leave out the lightest ink K7. It's also  
> > important which
> > > > > > ink goes
> > > > > > in which slot (at least if you plan on using QTR with the  
> > supplied
> > > > > > profiles).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd recommend just the Initial Ink Load of the new inks, not
> > > > > > flushing the printer
> > > > > > with cleaning ink. If you switch to sepia you probably have  
> > to do
> > > > > > this again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You'd have to ask inkjetmall when the sepia ink will be in  
> > bottles.
> > > > > > They have the
> > > > > > inks so it should be just a packaging issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Roy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Atelier Pictoform
> > > > > Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-Löfqvist
> > > > > Hedåsgatan 5
> > > > > SE-412 53 Göteborg
> > > > > Sweden
> > > > >
> > > > > +46 (0)31 181414
> > > > > Mobile: 073 974 44 24
> > > > >
> > > > > (Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)
> > > > >
> > > > > http:/www.pictoform.nu
> > > > >
> > > > > http:/www.artphotocollection.com
> > > > > http:/www.etsabild.se
> > > > > http:/www.hotelartgallery.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> Atelier Pictoform
> Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-Löfqvist
> Hedåsgatan 5
> SE-412 53 Göteborg
> Sweden
> 
> +46 (0)31 181414
> Mobile: 073 974 44 24
> 
> (Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)
> 
> http:/www.pictoform.nu
> 
> http:/www.artphotocollection.com
> http:/www.etsabild.se
> http:/www.hotelartgallery.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

John,

You wrote, in part:

>I've been using the K6 in a 7000 for about 6 months and 
>there is no clogging and absolutely no ink separation problems...
>... It is the best in my opinion as long as you don't need glossy media.


All blended B&W inks I've had experience with (which excludes the K7 inkset)
show differing degrees of hue changes when left idle for more than a week in
large format printers.  The problem may not be settling, as such, but I
don't know for sure what causes it.

One thing I do in an effort to test the relative characteristics of
different pigments is to put a drop of the color or carbon pigment in a test
tube of the clear base I'm interested in.  Does the pigment stay in
suspension or not?  What I've found is that the magenta pigments from both
MIS and Epson settle somewhat.  The R 800 Blue from MIS does not settle.
So, that is the one I use in the MIS blended inks. 

Still, there is some hue shift in large format printers when they are left
idle too long.  The degree seems to be less with the R 800 Blue than with
the magenta, but there is still a hue shift in these blended inks.  

I have not seen this in desktop printers that do not have the tubing between
the heads and the carts.  The hue shift is also not seen in a printer that
is used regularly.  It's only the infrequently-used large format printers
that seem to be affected.  However, for individual photographers like me it
is an issue -- frankly, a nuisance.

My initial impression from just looking at my 7500 tubing, as well as the
beakers and other the things I use when mixing, was that the color inks
stick to things to different degrees.  Remember the early Piezo problem with
the sponge that seemed to cause a color shift.  In large format printers
(and CISs?) the tubing and/or the dampers may be having such an effect.
They may act almost like a catalyst in separating the colors. 

As far as I can tell, there is no settling of the inks based on the R 800
Blue in the carts of my 7500, for example.  I'm not guaranteeing it is not
happening, but once I've purged the lines &/or damper, the tones appear to
be rather stable from beginning to end of the cartridge. It acts like the
separation or whatever, is limited to the tubing &/or dampers.


At any rate, my observations relating to these separation issues are among
the factors that lead to my opinion that large format printers may be best
left to those who can use them regularly.  This, in turn, is one of many
factors behind my attempts to connect the individuals like me to the service
bureaus who'll be able to print my large ones.  I can probably keep a 4800
running well, but I'd love to get my too-large and seldom-used 7500 out of
my office (space being another major factor).  

With an inkset like the UT-3D, I and others can have ICCs that matched the
tones of whatever the service bureaus have.  "Color management" in the sense
of standard monitor views and print densities -- like Gray Gamma 2.2 or Dot
Gain 20% as shown on a calibrated monitor -- would be another essential
element.  With rips that don't use the standard ICCs, their outputs can
probably be adjusted to match the standard monitor views and output
densities of a "color managed" 220 output.  For example, I've been able to
match the standard Dot Gain 20% output density with IJC linearization
controls.  I suspect other rips can also be adjusted to match these
standardized output densities.

There is or should be no reason a large format K6/7 print can't be proofed
on a cheap 220 3D combination such that an e-mailed file can be printed and
tube-mailed back very efficiently.  


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com