Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

Hey guys. Ive been recording with the kit and i have to say that the 
samples I've heard on the cymbals...really stink. (sorry, but that 
how I feel)

Is there a way to make them more real sounding or is there a way 
to..IMPORT my cymbals as samples?

Thanks for the help,
Billy

--- narrowgatedrummer wrote:
> ... the samples I've heard on the cymbals...really stink.
> Is there a way to make them more real sounding or is
> there a way to..IMPORT my cymbals as samples?

(I'm going to tackle this with two replies, one about the question 
itself, and one a bit more philosophical, just so the threads can't 
be distinguished).

No, you can't import your own samples. But if you have a sampler 
which is reachable by MIDI, you could use the DTXPU to trigger your 
sampler. You would then need to mix the sampler audio into the rest 
of the DTX, either with a smaller mixer or via the AUX IN on the 
DTXPU.

Yes, the onboard ones can be improved. You can layer them, either 
both sounds simultaneously (at different volumes, say to add a dark 
sustain to a faster, brigher attack) or cross-faded. You can change 
filter cutoff frequencies to brighten dark sounds or vice-versa, and 
you can use the coarse/fine tuning to move them up or down the 
register.

But they may still not satisfy if you compare them side-by-side with 
the real thing as you can. The single biggest issue, for me anyway, 
is that the brain only cares about the attack phase - how hard did 
you hit it (volume), and for how long (was it a strike or a choke)? 
On sensing a strike, it retriggers the sound *from scratch* - which 
is to say that it doesn't care if it's already been hit recently, or 
how it's been hit. Which means that you can't get "cymbal rolls" at 
all (other than by using the sample), and you can't get that 
interaction between edge and crash on a crash/ride.

Stewart

--- narrowgatedrummer wrote:
> ... the samples I've heard on the cymbals...really stink.
> Is there a way to make them more real sounding...

In response (see previous reply on the tweaks possible) I said:

"But they may still not satisfy if you compare them side-by-side with 
the real thing as you can."

Is this a problem?

It kinda depends on your view of e-drums, I think.

If you want them as an accurate electronic facsimile of acoustic 
drums (the "real thing"), you are (with current generation 
technology, at least) doomed, in my view.

Why? Because, frankly, an e-drum kit is NOT an "electronic drum kit". 
It's an electronic instrument that is played using many of the same 
techniques as a drumset.

If you use it for practice, or just for fun, it's not much of an 
issue. If you use it for "performance" (either public or private), I 
think you have to embrace and accept that difference or be doomed to 
disappointment.

Maybe next generation kit will change that. I do hope Yamaha's new 
gear doesn't disappoint, in  some ways, but if they get a lot closer 
while still not getting there, there's an argument that the net-net 
might be worse rather than better, because of the effect it will have 
on the acceptance of e-drums.

There, got that off my chest. Cry Havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.

Stewart

Really Inspector, do you seriously expect me to believe that on 5/9/03 9:43
am, "moosetication" <moosetication@...> said:

> The single biggest issue, for me anyway, is that the brain only cares about
> the attack phase - how hard did you hit it (volume), and for how long (was it
> a strike or a choke)? On sensing a strike, it retriggers the sound *from
> scratch* - which is to say that it doesn't care if it's already been hit
> recently, or how it's been hit. Which means that you can't get "cymbal rolls"
> at all (other than by using the sample), and you can't get that interaction
> between edge and crash on a crash/ride.

Is this a limitation of all brains irrespective of make, or just the budget
brains (DTXpress - TD-6)?

pb

--- Paul Bentley wrote:
> > The single biggest issue, for me anyway, is that the brain only
> > cares about the attack phase ...

> Is this a limitation of all brains irrespective of make, or
> just the budget brains (DTXpress - TD-6)?

So far as I know, it's all of them.

Stewart

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" <moosetication@y...> 
wrote:
> --- Paul Bentley wrote:
> > > The single biggest issue, for me anyway, is that the brain only
> > > cares about the attack phase ...
> 
> > Is this a limitation of all brains irrespective of make, or
> > just the budget brains (DTXpress - TD-6)?
> --- Stewart wrote:
> So far as I know, it's all of them.

This is true; all modules basically work on this principle. That's 
why the machine-gun effect has been such a bugaboo with e-drums. 
However, there are techniques to alleviate it. If the module only 
recognizes each strike as a wholly new event with no inherent 
cumulative effect, the trick is to find an electronic way to vary 
these attacks in series. One simple method is to allow crossfading, 
which the Xpress does to some extent by allowing two velocities to 
dictate results. Imagine this technique being compounded by four, 
five, or six velocities, as it is in the more expensive modules; a 
savvy e-drum player could go a long way toward making sure that 
successive strikes do not sound the same. Another method is  
positional sensing. As it stands now, this strategy applies only to 
drums rather than cymbals, but it won't be long before designers find 
a way to implement it in e-cymbals, too, though it may mean that 
owners of a certain module may have to use the same company's cymbals 
to achieve it. 

When it comes to cymbal rolls, which require an acoustic build-up of 
overlapping sounds that seem to defy easy digital simulation, at this 
point we might appear to be out of luck. I was never able to get them 
with any e-cymbal, that is, until the Visu-lites, and, theoretically, 
I shouldn't be able to get it with them either, at least through an 
Xpress module. But I do--though apparently not with all voices. When 
decay and voice are right, I can roll on a Visu-lite cymbal, mainly a 
crash, with pretty accurate results. I've mentioned this fact before 
and would love to compare notes with other Visu-lite owners on the 
board. (By the way, rolling on drums is a slightly less delicate 
situation, because the necessary sustain isn't so long.)

Ed

Tell ya what Im doing with the cymbals...Im going to use them for 
effects.

I ve decided that my Zils sound so much better in the mix than what 
the DTXpress2 has.

Although if anyone has setting they could e-mail my on a GREAT cymbal 
sound, I'll give it a try. Or maybe post it here.
Thanks,
Billy