Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

i have a dtx2 but the interface is almost the same so im hoping 
you will still be able to help me:

i have quite a heavy hitter and feel that i cannot get as much 
expression from the drums (ei - they wont go louder when i hit 
them harder) and im not quite sure on how i should go about 
adjusting them to make them do this - everyhting i seem to do 
makes it worse.

also, my hi-hat is level and i hit the side of it much like the way a 
normal one is played however the rim does not respond like the 
middle of the pad so i cannot trigger the closed/open sounds 
without hitting the top - can i just change the sounds around or 
will i need to re-arrange my drum kit - one i dea i had was to 
make a cable where the two sterio bits swap around so the DTX 
thinks the outside is the inside and the same the other way 
around - will this work?

thanks

i have a dtx2 but the interface is almost the same so im hoping 
you will still be able to help me:

i have quite a heavy hitter and feel that i cannot get as much 
expression from the drums (ei - they wont go louder when i hit 
them harder) and im not quite sure on how i should go about 
adjusting them to make them do this - everyhting i seem to do 
makes it worse.

also, my hi-hat is level and i hit the side of it much like the way a 
normal one is played however the rim does not respond like the 
middle of the pad so i cannot trigger the closed/open sounds 
without hitting the top - can i just change the sounds around or 
will i need to re-arrange my drum kit - one i dea i had was to 
make a cable where the two sterio bits swap around so the DTX 
thinks the outside is the inside and the same the other way 
around - will this work?

thanks

Others here will be able to help more than myself but you should be 
able to change the rim sound to the same sound as the top of the hat 
by selecting voice, hiting the rim and adjusting the voice selection 
to the same voice as the top of the hat, or you could just angle the 
hat so you hit the top instead of the side retaining the extra voice
As far as the velocity of your hits I am not sure about the express 
but the DTX module if I remeber right has a mode you could go into 
where you would hit the pad a few times and it would adjust for your 
playing style(could be wrong on this though) 


 Mark




--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "fezzasus" 
<could_people_stop_being_funny_please@h...> wrote:
> i have a dtx2 but the interface is almost the same so im hoping 
> you will still be able to help me:
> 
> i have quite a heavy hitter and feel that i cannot get as much 
> expression from the drums (ei - they wont go louder when i hit 
> them harder) and im not quite sure on how i should go about 
> adjusting them to make them do this - everyhting i seem to do 
> makes it worse.
> 
> also, my hi-hat is level and i hit the side of it much like the 
way a 

> normal one is played however the rim does not respond like the 
> middle of the pad so i cannot trigger the closed/open sounds 
> without hitting the top - can i just change the sounds around or 
> will i need to re-arrange my drum kit - one i dea i had was to 
> make a cable where the two sterio bits swap around so the DTX 
> thinks the outside is the inside and the same the other way 
> around - will this work?
> 
> thanks

fezzasus said:
> i have a dtx2 but the interface is almost the same so im hoping
> you will still be able to help me:
>
> i have quite a heavy hitter and feel that i cannot get as much
> expression from the drums (ei - they wont go louder when i hit
> them harder) and im not quite sure on how i should go about
> adjusting them to make them do this - everyhting i seem to do
> makes it worse.

When you strike the pad, the piezo element encased in it produces a small
electric signal that is measured by the DTXpress module to determine how
loud a sound it should produce. In your case, if you are striking the
pads *very* hard, you may be causing the piezo to produce it's maximum
output voltage, if this is the case, then striking the pad even harder
will not produce a measureable increase in voltage and so the module is
not aware it should make a proportionaly louder sound.

This might be different if you had Mesh pads or some other type of pad
where you can reduce the amount of kinetic energy reaching the piezo. If
the piezo is not being saturated by your stick force, then you should be
able to reduce the sensitivity of the pad by using the DIP switches on
the back of the module.

If you have a sequencer, I would use it to record a series of notes from
one of your pads starting at MP and moving to FFF and then look to see
what the velocity level is for the notes. If they are reaching 127 before
you are at triple-forte, then you will need to reduce the pad sensitivity
more. If you are unable to get the note velocity to drop below 127 before
you hit triple forte, then it might be time to investigate a different
pad. :(

Of course, this is assuming that you are unable/unwilling to change your
drumming style. If you hit that hard, it might be best for you to move
away from gum-rubber pads altogether since many of the older drummers on
the list (et hem..:) can tell you from experience you will start to have
"organic degradation" i.e. carpal tunnel, sore wrists, sore shoulders,
etc.) since the gum rubber doesn't "give" when struck the way a drum head
does.

Rather than looking at changing the kit, you might want to consider just
changing your style a bit so as to improve your chances of being able to
drum when you get older. :)

> also, my hi-hat is level and i hit the side of it much like the way a
> normal one is played however the rim does not respond like the
> middle of the pad so i cannot trigger the closed/open sounds
> without hitting the top

On my kit I have the hat pad tilted towards me so the "normal" horizontal
position of my stick will impact the center of the pad. I had no real
luck getting the edge to trigger reliably and I don't think the pad would
survive long if it were continuously hit on it's side. Another option
would be to swap the two-zone cymbal pad with the hat pad since this
would give you an "edge" to strike like your "real" hi-hat.

> - can i just change the sounds around or
> will i need to re-arrange my drum kit - one i dea i had was to
> make a cable where the two sterio bits swap around so the DTX
> thinks the outside is the inside and the same the other way
> around - will this work?

I don't think switching the tip/ring around on the stereo cable would
work. I'm pretty sure it would render the pad silent as the center sensor
is piezo and the edge is a FSR. These two trigger types are not
compatible. Changing the cable would route the piezo output to the FSR
input on the module and vice versa.

It seems to me that a little larger view ought to be taken here. I think
many of us are surprised to learn that Electric drums are NOT Acoustic
drums! They are as different as an electric guitar is to an acoustic
guitar or fretless standup bass is from an electric bass. Subsequently,
you need to learn some new playing techniques.

Though it is probably possible to make changes to the kit to accommodate
what you are trying to accomplish, I don't think it's the best thing for
you to do if only because really heavy playing is *very* hard on your
body and may result in a shortened playing career.

Personally, I discovered that I could produce some very dynamic and
powerful sounds with the kit without beating the cr@p out of it. :) I use
the lightest jazz sticks I can find and I turn the volume of the kit up
loud enough that if I hit with medium to heavy force the sound is *very*
loud. This keeps me from hammering the cr@p out of the kit. Of course
then you have to be careful not to damage your hearing... :::sigh::: what
a drag it is getting old... :(

Vern

--
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE     | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer     | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services  | paying you? Of course, if the network
vern@... www.txis.com  | is up, then we obviously don't need
Cell 507-7851 Desk 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "mgk66219" <machinegunkelley@h...> 
wrote:
> Others here will be able to help more than myself but you should be 
> able to change the rim sound to the same sound as the top of the 
hat 
> by selecting voice, hiting the rim and adjusting the voice 
selection 
> to the same voice as the top of the hat, or you could just angle 
the 
> hat so you hit the top instead of the side retaining the extra voice

These are two very good suggestions.

> As far as the velocity of your hits I am not sure about the express 
> but the DTX module if I remeber right has a mode you could go into 
> where you would hit the pad a few times and it would adjust for 
your 
> playing style(could be wrong on this though) 

I'm not sure that the DTX module has this capability, but it sure 
would be nice. I know that at least some of the Kat products do, and 
it does help to preserve your style, going from acoustics to 
electronics. 
 
> > i have quite a heavy hitter and feel that i cannot get as much 
> > expression from the drums (ei - they wont go louder when i hit 
> > them harder) and im not quite sure on how i should go about 
> > adjusting them to make them do this - everyhting i seem to do 
> > makes it worse.

In this respect, e-drums do not behave like acoustics. E-drums are 
more sympathetic to finesse than to power--not that they won't give 
you a stadium sound if you want one; you just achieve it somewhat 
differently. If you go into the gain window, you'll see that you 
don't have to exert much force to reach a peak; the law of 
diminishing returns obtrudes pretty quickly. You have to adjust your 
physical technique accordingly. But the DTX also has a crossfading 
function whereby you can change how a pad reacts by programming it to 
make different sounds at different velocities. Some people program 
totally different voices from one fade to another; other people 
simply change the pitch, the decay, and the frequency cutoff to 
reflect how a pad sounds when hit at various levels of strength. That 
said, few e-drums seem to be completely immune to the machine-gun 
effect, that is, the tendency for consecutive hits to sound alike. It 
takes some tweaking and patience to learn the characteristics of an 
electronic kit to minimize its less desirable tendencies. 

Ed

As the picture of a rubber pad posted by ODG
indicates, Yamaha pads have a input sensitivity pot
inside the pad itself. The dtxpress does have 'gain='
but it doesn't mean gain as in a micpre, being able to
'control' the input signal up or down to achieve
optimum velocity.  I have made a few Roland mesh head
clones, from info on the www.electronicdrums.com site,
that triggered flawlessly on Alesis d4, dm-5,and
Roland td-8. These modules all have input sensitivity.
 But on the Dtxpress my medium hits were triggering
99%.  I  have now installed some resistors and
achieved absolute perfect triggering!  When I set
'gain=99 mvel=0'  I enjoy near-real -drum dynamics
with no machine gun effect at all. I did notice that
my rim triggers and converted practice cymbals needed
a little less resistance than the center triggers. 
I would love to compare the dynamics with a td-8 or
td-10 side by side.  I don't recall the td-8 dynamics
being this responsive!  Of course I only had it for a
day and my memory is quite foggy.


Jun


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--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Jun Tatsuoka <jtatsuoka@y...> wrote:
> As the picture of a rubber pad posted by ODG
> indicates, Yamaha pads have a input sensitivity pot
> inside the pad itself. The dtxpress does have 'gain='
> but it doesn't mean gain as in a micpre, being able to
> 'control' the input signal up or down to achieve
> optimum velocity.  I have made a few Roland mesh head
> clones, from info on the www.electronicdrums.com site,
> that triggered flawlessly on Alesis d4, dm-5,and
> Roland td-8. These modules all have input sensitivity.
>  But on the Dtxpress my medium hits were triggering
> 99%.  I  have now installed some resistors and
> achieved absolute perfect triggering!  When I set
> 'gain=99 mvel=0'  I enjoy near-real -drum dynamics
> with no machine gun effect at all. I did notice that
> my rim triggers and converted practice cymbals needed
> a little less resistance than the center triggers. 
> I would love to compare the dynamics with a td-8 or
> td-10 side by side.  I don't recall the td-8 dynamics
> being this responsive!  Of course I only had it for a
> day and my memory is quite foggy.

Jun,

Thanks for the explanation. Such are the limits of a module at the 
DTXPress' price point. But the note on technique still stands. E-
drums respond better to finesse than to power. There's no substitute 
for getting to know the foibles of your equipment in order to keep 
them as much under control as possible. The more expensive modules--
TD10, TD8, Xtreme, and ddrum--with more inherent dynamic range and 
some form of positional sensing have less of a tendency toward the 
machine gun effect. Everyone with DIY talents and inclinations should 
take note of the electronicdrums site; it is excellent.

Ed

>  Everyone with DIY talents and inclinations should 
> take note of the electronicdrums site; it is excellent.
> 
> Ed

You are right about the electronicdrums site.  It is the best $20 i spent in a long while.  For about $800, I now have an all Roland head set 
with  a dual zone 8", dual zone 12" for snare, 4  x 12" single zones for toms and kick and two plastic cymbals mounted on an all-metal-
clamp rack.  That includes the DTxpress I just picked up for $230 off of  Fleabay. 
No DIY talents needed!!! If you have ever fixed a cable with a soldering iron you can make these drums.   Roland should not be charging 
$299 for a plastic drum with a few dollars worth of electronics inside.   Just get a few CB700 drums and cut them in half and slap the 
roland heads on them.   Everything else can be bought at Radio Shack and Home Depot for about $10 per drum. 

Jun

Thanks for all the ideas, i have managed to adjust the sensitivty 
for the snare (the rest are fine) once before but now cannot 
remember the settings i had - it must just be a matter of trying 
them all untill i get the setting i want.

i will also consider joining that website as i enjoy building my 
own things and am poor, unfortantly too porr to join the web site 
right now because i have just bough visu lite cymbals (no hi hat 
at this point because i am considering changing the module 
from a dtx2 to somethign else)

thanks again

---sigh::: what
a drag it is getting old... :(---
Things are different today...

I agree with Vern: lighter sticks, lighter hits. there are ways that edrums
encourage subtlety.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vernon Graner [mailto:vern@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:58 PM
To: DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DTXpress] my go to ask for help


fezzasus said:
> i have a dtx2 but the interface is almost the same so im hoping
> you will still be able to help me:
>
> i have quite a heavy hitter and feel that i cannot get as much
> expression from the drums (ei - they wont go louder when i hit
> them harder) and im not quite sure on how i should go about
> adjusting them to make them do this - everyhting i seem to do
> makes it worse.

When you strike the pad, the piezo element encased in it produces a small
electric signal that is measured by the DTXpress module to determine how
loud a sound it should produce. In your case, if you are striking the
pads *very* hard, you may be causing the piezo to produce it's maximum
output voltage, if this is the case, then striking the pad even harder
will not produce a measureable increase in voltage and so the module is
not aware it should make a proportionaly louder sound.

This might be different if you had Mesh pads or some other type of pad
where you can reduce the amount of kinetic energy reaching the piezo. If
the piezo is not being saturated by your stick force, then you should be
able to reduce the sensitivity of the pad by using the DIP switches on
the back of the module.

If you have a sequencer, I would use it to record a series of notes from
one of your pads starting at MP and moving to FFF and then look to see
what the velocity level is for the notes. If they are reaching 127 before
you are at triple-forte, then you will need to reduce the pad sensitivity
more. If you are unable to get the note velocity to drop below 127 before
you hit triple forte, then it might be time to investigate a different
pad. :(

Of course, this is assuming that you are unable/unwilling to change your
drumming style. If you hit that hard, it might be best for you to move
away from gum-rubber pads altogether since many of the older drummers on
the list (et hem..:) can tell you from experience you will start to have
"organic degradation" i.e. carpal tunnel, sore wrists, sore shoulders,
etc.) since the gum rubber doesn't "give" when struck the way a drum head
does.

Rather than looking at changing the kit, you might want to consider just
changing your style a bit so as to improve your chances of being able to
drum when you get older. :)

> also, my hi-hat is level and i hit the side of it much like the way a
> normal one is played however the rim does not respond like the
> middle of the pad so i cannot trigger the closed/open sounds
> without hitting the top

On my kit I have the hat pad tilted towards me so the "normal" horizontal
position of my stick will impact the center of the pad. I had no real
luck getting the edge to trigger reliably and I don't think the pad would
survive long if it were continuously hit on it's side. Another option
would be to swap the two-zone cymbal pad with the hat pad since this
would give you an "edge" to strike like your "real" hi-hat.

> - can i just change the sounds around or
> will i need to re-arrange my drum kit - one i dea i had was to
> make a cable where the two sterio bits swap around so the DTX
> thinks the outside is the inside and the same the other way
> around - will this work?

I don't think switching the tip/ring around on the stereo cable would
work. I'm pretty sure it would render the pad silent as the center sensor
is piezo and the edge is a FSR. These two trigger types are not
compatible. Changing the cable would route the piezo output to the FSR
input on the module and vice versa.

It seems to me that a little larger view ought to be taken here. I think
many of us are surprised to learn that Electric drums are NOT Acoustic
drums! They are as different as an electric guitar is to an acoustic
guitar or fretless standup bass is from an electric bass. Subsequently,
you need to learn some new playing techniques.

Though it is probably possible to make changes to the kit to accommodate
what you are trying to accomplish, I don't think it's the best thing for
you to do if only because really heavy playing is *very* hard on your
body and may result in a shortened playing career.

Personally, I discovered that I could produce some very dynamic and
powerful sounds with the kit without beating the cr@p out of it. :) I use
the lightest jazz sticks I can find and I turn the volume of the kit up
loud enough that if I hit with medium to heavy force the sound is *very*
loud. This keeps me from hammering the cr@p out of the kit. Of course
then you have to be careful not to damage your hearing... :::sigh::: what
a drag it is getting old... :(

Vern

--
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE     | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer     | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services  | paying you? Of course, if the network
vern@... www.txis.com  | is up, then we obviously don't need
Cell 507-7851 Desk 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG



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