The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

Hi,

Is there a subtractive synth VSTi that pretty much has the same
parameters as the AN1x? I looked at the pro52 control map file and
it seems that it's missing some parameters I consider essential to
the AN1x like Pmod depth and PWsrc. And if you could recommend one,
how would I go about transferring the parameters on the AN1x to the
VSTi like I can with AN1xedit? I'm also wondering if something like
this can be achieved with the environment files for Logic. If so,
how would I go about doing it? I know I might be asking for too
much, but I'd appreciate whatever aid I can get in case my AN1x isn't
around and I need to use a surrogate midi controller for gigging with
those same sounds.

I know that I'm not going to get exactly the same sounds since even
among the subtractive synths, they all have different engines and
different parameters, as is apparent with the pro52 vs. the An1x. I
hope that there's just enough overlap and I'm pretty sure there is
between the AN1x and a VSTi so I can "emulate" the AN1x when I'm on
the go(an1x = too heavy to carry to gigs nowadays esp since I usu
walk w/my laptop). Thanks.

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, "vick_timson"
<vick_timson@y...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Is there a subtractive synth VSTi that pretty much has the same
> parameters as the AN1x? I looked at the pro52 control map file

and

> it seems that it's missing some parameters I consider

essential to

> the AN1x like Pmod depth and PWsrc.

Sorry, but I'm a little confused by your statement "looked at the
pro52 control map file and ..." Do you mean the MIDI Controller
Templates supplied by Native Instruments? IF you haven't
already, I strongly recommend you donwload a demo copy of
Pro-52 (now Pro-53) from the NI web site. The Pmod equivalent
on the Pro-52 is the FREQ A parm and the PWsrc equivalent is
the PW A (and PW B.) The parms can be modulated from both
the Poly-Mod and Wheel-Mod sections of the Pro-52.

IMHO, the Pro-52 (and Pro-53) both offer remarkably similar
sound quality to the AN1x. It's not lacking much of anything from
the AN1x. I'd easily choose the Pro-5x series as an AN1x
substitute. There's a shareware knock off called Exciton (I think)
that appears to be a 'poor mans' version (for $75 if you call that
shareware!) but I found it neither aesthetically pleasing nor
comparable sound wise to either the Pro-52 or AN1x. Besides, it
behaved like crap in a couple of VST hosts on the Mac platform.

And if you could recommend one,

> how would I go about transferring the parameters on the AN1x

to the

> VSTi like I can with AN1xedit?

I think you'll find a number of presets in Pro-52 are remarkably
similar to the AN1x - and others can be tweaked with a minimum
of effort. I know of no conversion utility for AN1x Voices so I would
hazazrd a guess any effort to transfer patches would be a
manual effort on your part.

I'm also wondering if something like

> this can be achieved with the environment files for Logic. If so,
> how would I go about doing it?

I don't see how the Environment would lend itself to this. The
Environment is a tremendous resource for providing tailored
automation and control facitilies but any conversion of
parameters would be best suited to real time applications, i.e.,
rerout MIDI CC #00x to CC #0xx for example.

There are many Environment layers available today for the
AN1x/PLG150-AN. Check the Files section here at Yahoo!
Groups and also http://www.swiftkick.com/ Jetronic made the
superb layers for the AN1x Step Seq and Vari Effects, another
fellow made a PLG150-AN specific layer entirely of SysEx strings
and I fleshed out the missing parameters from the env supplied
by Yamaha for Mode1 and Mode2 on the AN1x.


I know I might be asking for too

> much, but I'd appreciate whatever aid I can get in case my

AN1x isn't

> around and I need to use a surrogate midi controller for

gigging with

> those same sounds.

No problem, but I think you might want to spend some time
thinking through what attainable goal you're after.

> I know that I'm not going to get exactly the same sounds since

even

> among the subtractive synths, they all have different engines

and

> different parameters, as is apparent with the pro52 vs. the

An1x. I

> hope that there's just enough overlap and I'm pretty sure there

is

> between the AN1x and a VSTi so I can "emulate" the AN1x

when I'm on

> the go(an1x = too heavy to carry to gigs nowadays esp since I

usu

> walk w/my laptop). Thanks.

The one shortcoming of the Pro-52 vs. the AN1x is the lack of a
Control Matrix. The Mod section on the Pro-52 is terrific (but a
little confusing.) The lack of a Control Matrix is understandable
as this feature is really more a knock off of the Oberheim design
then the Sequential Circuits design. Still...if you *really* need a
Control Matrix you might check out the FreeAlpha from LinPlug.
Which, again, sounds neither as good as the Pro-52 or AN1x to
my ears but offers an easy to use Control Matrix.

I'd also like to point out that NI assumed distribution of the
Pro-53 from Steinberg upon its release earlier this year.
Consequently, many online shops were offering Pro-52 at a
discounted price and the upgrade to Pro-53 was offered directly
from NI for free. I took advantage of this blowout and scored a
Pro-52 for $70 from AudioMIDI.com and the Pro-53 (with 500+
extra patches) was FREE! Way cool. That was a few months ago
so it may be hard to find anybody still offering this price but you
might search around - try Sam Ash, Nova Musik, and maybe 8th
Street Music too. I don't see any reason not to jump on it if you
come across this deal.

Hope this helps,

Jon

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, "Jon" <jondl_2000@y...> wrote:

> Sorry, but I'm a little confused by your statement "looked at the
> pro52 control map file and ..." Do you mean the MIDI Controller
> Templates supplied by Native Instruments? IF you haven't
> already, I strongly recommend you donwload a demo copy of
> Pro-52 (now Pro-53) from the NI web site. The Pmod equivalent
> on the Pro-52 is the FREQ A parm and the PWsrc equivalent is
> the PW A (and PW B.) The parms can be modulated from both
> the Poly-Mod and Wheel-Mod sections of the Pro-52.

I tried the demo out and realized that there's no Edge parameters as
well, preventing me from creating a sine wave. And by the control
map file, I was talking about the one given here:

http://www.kvr-vst.com/howto.php?id=1
http://www.kvr-vst.com/resources/AN1xMap.txt

Unfortunately, as I tried putting this file with the name
ControlMap.txt in C:\Program Files\Pro-53\MIDI Controller Templates
as well as C:\Program Files\Pro-53 and even C:\Program Files\Pro-53
\Presets, I can't seem to be able to get it to load. Yes, I did set
my control mode to 1.

Also when you say modulated, do you just mean switched? I'm a bit
confused about the format of the poly-mod and wheel-mod sections
since they have named knobs with buttons, unlike the specific knobs
PWsrc and Pmod have which range from 1-127(my synth jargon is pretty
weak). I thought maybe the knob would be blank and I can switch to
whatever knob parameter group I want to on the pro53 like I can on
the AN1x, which doesn't happen to be the case at all. So for
example, how would I get these following parameters onto the pro53:

VCO1
edge: 100
PWM depth: +15
PWM source: fixed
Pmod depth: +10

PEG/LFO
PEG decay: +12
PEG depth: +37
PEG sw: both
LFO1 wave: sine
LFO1 speed: 79
LFO1 Delay: 0
LFO2 Speed: 11

> I know of no conversion utility for AN1x Voices so I would
> hazazrd a guess any effort to transfer patches would be a
> manual effort on your part.

Which I'm more than willing to do by slightly moving the AN1x knobs
to get approximate settings onto the pro53.

> The one shortcoming of the Pro-52 vs. the AN1x is the lack of a
> Control Matrix. The Mod section on the Pro-52 is terrific (but a
> little confusing.) The lack of a Control Matrix is understandable
> as this feature is really more a knock off of the Oberheim design
> then the Sequential Circuits design. Still...if you *really* need a
> Control Matrix you might check out the FreeAlpha from LinPlug.
> Which, again, sounds neither as good as the Pro-52 or AN1x to
> my ears but offers an easy to use Control Matrix.
>

I don't know if the lack of a control matrix severely impairs me from
trying to do what I'm doing. If not, then I feel I can do without
it. If so, I'll check out what you're suggesting. Thanks Jon. I
appreciate all of this help.

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, "sonarcade"
<sonarcade@y...> wrote:

> --- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, "Jon" <jondl_2000@y...>

wrote:

>
> > Sorry, but I'm a little confused by your statement "looked at

the

> > pro52 control map file and ..." Do you mean the MIDI

Controller

> > Templates supplied by Native Instruments? IF you haven't
> > already, I strongly recommend you donwload a demo copy of
> > Pro-52 (now Pro-53) from the NI web site. The Pmod

equivalent

> > on the Pro-52 is the FREQ A parm and the PWsrc equivalent

is

> > the PW A (and PW B.) The parms can be modulated from

both

> > the Poly-Mod and Wheel-Mod sections of the Pro-52.
>
> I tried the demo out and realized that there's no Edge

parameters as

> well, preventing me from creating a sine wave.

In actuality the 'Edge' control on the AN1x permits for a
continuously variable waveshape - a significant feature in itself,
far more than an on/off switch for a Sine wave. Anydbody
experimenting with the FreeEG on the AN1x should try recording
the Edge parameter into their Voice.

This was not a feature of the Sequential Circuits Prophet-5 and,
obviousy, NI didn't program a comparable parameter into the
Pro-53. I'm uncertain of the exact history concerning continuosly
vairable waveshapes on analog synths but I expect the AN1x
Edge feature was inspired by ARP or Oberheim synths, not SC
or Moog.

There are probably far fewer AN1x Voices which use a Sine wave
than you expect - mostly percussive type sounds (synth drum
emualtions) I'd guess.

And by the control

> map file, I was talking about the one given here:
>
> http://www.kvr-vst.com/howto.php?id=1
> http://www.kvr-vst.com/resources/AN1xMap.txt
>

Okay, we're talking about the same thing then.

> Unfortunately, as I tried putting this file with the name
> ControlMap.txt in C:\Program Files\Pro-53\MIDI Controller

Templates

> as well as C:\Program Files\Pro-53 and even C:\Program

Files\Pro-53

> \Presets, I can't seem to be able to get it to load. Yes, I did set
> my control mode to 1.
>

I had no problem loading the MIDI Controller Templates into my
Pro-53. I immediately noticed the default settings for the AN1x
Assing Knobs were mapped to the Pro-53 Delay section as
follows:

DlyTime=CC:45 ; Delay Assign 5
DlySprd=CC:41 ; Assign 1
DlyDept=CC:42 ; Assign 2
DlyRate=CC:43 ; Assign 3
DlyFdbk=CC:46 ; Assign 6
Dly_HPF=CC:47 ; Assign 7
Dly_LPF=CC:48 ; Assign 8
Dly_Wet=CC:44 ; Assign 4

Not the most useful config. You can either a. edit the Controller
Template to mape the default MIDI CCs from the AN1x Assign
knobs to more useful parameters or b. remap the AN1x Assign
knobs to match the MIDI CCs in the Controller Template. If you;re
using Logic or Cubase it probably easier to affect changes from
the automation inherent in those programs. Otherwise, I might
suggest keeping multiple variation of the Controller Template on
hand.

> Also when you say modulated, do you just mean switched?

No, I mean modulated. You indicated in your earlier post:

"I looked at the pro52 control map file and it seems that it's
missing some parameters I consider essential to the AN1x like
Pmod depth and PWsrc."

Those parameters are present on the Pro-53 but the
nomenclature is different - and those parms ARE in the
Controller Template.


I'm a bit

> confused about the format of the poly-mod and wheel-mod

sections

> since they have named knobs with buttons, unlike the specific

knobs

> PWsrc and Pmod have which range from 1-127(my synth

jargon is pretty

> weak).

On the Pro-53, in the Wheel Mod section, click the icon for FREQ
A. Now move the Mod Wheel - you are now modulating the Pitch
of OSC A. Or, you can use the Poly Mod section: click the icon for
FREQ A and use the OSC B rotary control to affect the depth.
These values are equivalent to routing the Mod Wheel on the
AN1x to VCO1PmodDP in the Ctrl Matrix or using the Pmod
Depth setting under VCO1 modulated by LFO1 on the AN1x.


I thought maybe the knob would be blank and I can switch to

> whatever knob parameter group I want to on the pro53 like I

can on

> the AN1x, which doesn't happen to be the case at all. So for
> example, how would I get these following parameters onto the

pro53:

>

You've omitted the Wave parameter in the following example so I
assume you meant Wave: Square. Keep in mind some values
will not match up as one or the other may use a value range of
0-99 or 1-128 and vice versa. You'll need to approximate.

VCO1
edge: 100 --> no equivalent parm
PWM depth: +15 --> set OSC A PW equivalent
PWM source: fixed --> default setting
Pmod depth: +10 --> use a Poly Mod setting (see above)



PEG/LFO
PEG decay: +12 --> there is no dedicated PEG on the Pro-53.
Use the Poly Mod section with the Filter Env as your source
instead of OSC B. You'll need to program the Filter ADSR to suit
your taste.
PEG depth: +37 -- see above.
PEG sw: both --> no equivalent parm The work around would
require two seperate mod sources on the Pro-53 as far as I can
see.
LFO1 wave: sine --> the Pro-53 offers Tri, Saw and Sqr - not
Sine. No loss, IMO as the LFO offers MIDI Sync
LFO1 speed: 79 --> Freq
LFO1 Delay: 0 --> no Equivalent
LFO2 Speed: 11 --> LFO2 on the AN1x is limited to Ptich routing
- use a Poly Mod or Wheel Mod setting on the Pro053.

> > I know of no conversion utility for AN1x Voices so I would
>> hazazrd a guess any effort to transfer patches would be a
> > manual effort on your part.
>
> Which I'm more than willing to do by slightly moving the AN1x

knobs

> to get approximate settings onto the pro53.
>

I don't believe it's realistic to expect a reasonable approximation
of AN1x Voice on the Pro-53 using this approach. The Controller
Template(s) from NI are intended to permit you to utilize the
physical controllers on your keyboard/fader box/MIDI
sequencer/etc. to more closely emulate a real time environment
that would otherwise not be possible using a software synth. It's
not intended as a subsitute programming interface. You still
need to comprehend and apply the basic principle of subtractive
synthesis to whichever synth you utilize.

regards,

Jon