The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

Thanks to all for your tips.
But I find learning to read and write music very complex,fustrating and restrictive.
I mean with all the soft synths/step sequencers,loop players and samplers etc is it really necessary to learn.
I mean some people play by ear like my self,is this normal.
I like ambient dance/trance and experimental electronics sounds.I like using an150/reaktor/reason.I just mess with sounds and create interesting noises and generate paterns/sequences and it into somthing interesting or may be an intrumental peace of music.But please advise if you think my approach is wrong.
Regards Dmanx.



--------------------
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com

Your approach cannot be "wrong" if it works for you (IE- it allows you 
to challenge yourself and take pride in the music you create).

Sure- I read music- not as well as I used to , but I can still read (& 
I've had some college Music theory as well).

IMHO- these are just tools to help me make music.  That's it in a 
nutshell.

On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 09:13 PM, DMANX@... wrote:

>
> Thanks to all for your tips.
> But I find learning to read and write music very complex,fustrating 
> and restrictive.
> I mean with all the soft synths/step sequencers,loop players and 
> samplers etc is it really necessary to learn.
> I mean some people play by ear like my self,is this normal.
> I like ambient dance/trance and experimental electronics sounds.I like 
> using an150/reaktor/reason.I just mess with sounds and create 
> interesting noises and generate paterns/sequences and it into somthing 
> interesting or may be an intrumental peace of music..But please advise 
> if you think my approach is wrong.
> Regards Dmanx.
>
>

DMANX@... heeft geschreven:
> Thanks to all for your tips.
> But I find learning to read and write music very complex,fustrating and restrictive.
> I mean with all the soft synths/step sequencers,loop players and samplers etc is it really necessary to learn.
> I mean some people play by ear like my self,is this normal.
> I like ambient dance/trance and experimental electronics sounds.I like using an150/reaktor/reason.I just mess with sounds and create interesting noises and generate paterns/sequences and it into somthing interesting or may be an intrumental peace of music.But please advise if you think my approach is wrong.

Purists wouldn't call that music, but just creating noises and loops. I 
see it as an aspect of music, but a limited one, just like pop is a 
limited aspect of music.

If you don't bother about melodies or chord progressions, arguably you 
don't need to learn about theory.

But then again, can you ever really learn a foreign language by going to 
a country and just listen to how people speak? Isn't it a lot easier 
when you learn the grammer (in other words, the theory), and you learn 
how to read and write in that language? It may be more hard work in the 
beginning, but when you *understand* what is happening, you can make 
your own sentences instead of repeating what other people say.

It's the same with music. You can get some way with just mucking about 
and playng by ear, but you will never fully understand it and go further.

- Peter

Hi Dmanx,

>Thanks to all for your tips.
>But I find learning to read and write music very complex,fustrating and restrictive.

Like most things that are learned, this is usually true in the early stages.  As you learn more about the "rules," it be comes easier.  If you've ever studied a foreign language, you probably know what I mean.

>I mean with all the soft synths/step sequencers,loop players and samplers etc is it really necessary to learn.

I guess it depends on your ultimate goals.  These are tools that help automate certain aspects of music, but they do not provide all of the necessary elements.  Loops and samples alone are not music.

>I mean some people play by ear like my self,is this normal.

Yes, I play mostly by ear these days, even though I had a few years of formal music training.  I will say, however, that my training makes learning by ear much easier, because I have a good idea of where things are going BEFORE I hear them.

>I like ambient dance/trance and experimental electronics sounds.I like using an150/reaktor/reason.I just mess with sounds and create interesting noises and generate paterns/sequences and it into somthing interesting or may be an intrumental peace of music.But please advise if you think my approach is wrong.

Your approach isn't "wrong," but it is limited in scope.  Using musical tools without understanding the  musical "rules" sometimes creates music; other times, it only creates noise, or maybe, one memorable lick.  Really memorable music -- of any genre, including ambient -- is a journey of sorts:  it has a beginning, a middle, and an end.  The tools you list are great at providing the "middle" of a song, but they don't do as well with the beginning and the end, unless you count happy accidents along the way.  Understanding the theory behind music helps to make the journey quicker and more productive.

I liken knowledge of music theory to knowledge of any other art form.  I could take a photo of something, scan it into PhotoShop or Paint Shop and adjust the colors, maybe even add a couple of digital effects.  The result may be enjoyable, even terrific now and then.  Completing this process doesn't make me a photographer (or a graphic artist), though, because I can't repeat my success, except by accident -- although continuing in this manner over a long period of time may eventually turn me into an artist of sorts.  Ultimately, if I want to work in visual art, I should probably study things like perspective, color, shading, and composition.  I can get by without this knowledge, but having it will allow me to reach farther in the medium.

I live in an area where the majority of musicians are self-taught, mostly 100% by ear.  Most of these musicians are very good at what they do, and many of them even have better chops than I do.  One interesting aside, though:  I often get calls for fill-in work, and I regularly amaze many of these self-taught musicians by how quickly I learn their material.  How do I do this?  By understanding the rules that music follows, I have a head start.  Sure, I could just learn the songs by rote, but it's much quicker when I know that a root chord is almost always followed by a 4th, 5th, minor 6th, or minor 2nd chord in popular music, or that descending minor chord patterns usually follow the same sequence.  If I'm working with another theory-savvy player, I can even get my point across quickly:  "It's just a I-IV-II-V song."

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions\ufffd   http://consult.ashbysolutions.com
978.386.7389  voice/fax
bruce@...

On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 04:28 PM, Bruce Wahler wrote:
>
>
>> I like ambient dance/trance and experimental electronics sounds.I 
>> like using an150/reaktor/reason.I just mess with sounds and create 
>> interesting noises and generate paterns/sequences and it into 
>> somthing interesting or may be an intrumental peace of music.But 
>> please advise if you think my approach is wrong.
>
> Your approach isn't "wrong," but it is limited in scope.  Using 
> musical tools without understanding the  musical "rules" sometimes 
> creates music; other times, it only creates noise, or maybe, one 
> memorable lick.  Really memorable music -- of any genre, including 
> ambient -- is a journey of sorts:  it has a beginning, a middle, and 
> an end.  The tools you list are great at providing the "middle" of a 
> song, but they don't do as well with the beginning and the end, unless 
> you count happy accidents along the way.  Understanding the theory 
> behind music helps to make the journey quicker and more productive.
>

What a great thread- I've really enjoyed reading Bruce's thoughts on 
this. They are well thought out and expressed, and based on experience 
from the sound of them (thanks for sharing Bruce).

However- I like to think of theory and music as having "relationships" 
and not "rules".

(although 4 part chorale voicing has "rules" and is restrictive I 
suppose).

I like to say music theory can provide insight into tonal relationships 
- and not "rules" per say.
I'd hate to think what would happen to music if musicians listened to 
"rules"- like the church had when they said never use the triad 
"Devil's interval".
What would music be like in India if they adhered to a twelve tone 
system?(shudder)....

I always get really guarded when folks talk about music education 
because I've been privy to too many instances where Theory savvy 
musicians look down on other musicians (I called them Classical 
Elitists when I was a kid).

Dmanx- Theory can open you up to other perspectives on music.
I think Bruce agrees that it is a tool that can empower you.
Personally- I wish I knew more...but right now I know enough to be 
happy and creative.

So if you find it "Complex, & frustrating" right now - don't sweat 
it.... you can make music just as you are doing right now- and look at 
Theory & reading notation later  (I felt the same way about Theory 
myself).

I try not to look at it as "restrictive"- just another perspective that 
cannot harm me (or turn me into an Elitist).

:-)

I mean some people like write by foot....

Are you looking for validation for ignorance? You will certainly find
just about as much of this as you will find pedantic types suggesting
you adopt a particular rigid school of thought in regards to music
theory.

The advice others have offered in this thread is good advice.

You need to decide who you are composing for and why you are doing it.
Are you doing it for yourself or for others? Both? More importantly are
you trying to make dumb music that smart people will like, dumb music
that dumb people will like, smart music that smart people will like, or
smart music that dumb people will like? If your answer is ALL OF THE
ABOVE then you really have your work cut out for you, but if you pull if
off you will be one smart-ass dumb-ass and that's sheer genius. Add a
few social graces and a lot of luck and you will have a large fan-base
and plenty of $.

bloop & bleep on,

Scott

DMANX@... wrote:
> 
> Thanks to all for your tips.
> But I find learning to read and write music very complex,fustrating and restrictive.
> I mean with all the soft synths/step sequencers,loop players and samplers etc is it really necessary to learn.
> I mean some people play by ear like my self,is this normal.
> I like ambient dance/trance and experimental electronics sounds.I like using an150/reaktor/reason.I just mess with sounds and create interesting noises and generate paterns/sequences and it into somthing interesting or may be an intrumental peace of music.But please advise if you think my approach is wrong.
> Regards Dmanx.
> 

-- 
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  Visit the the home of Hebephrenic, The Hot Buttered Elves, & Sunshine

                     http://www.tapehissrecordings.com

          and our sites at the world's largest online cut-out bin

                     http://mp3.com/hotbutteredelves
                       http://mp3.com/hebephrenica
                    http://mp3.com/sunshineallthetime

                ....and for a whole new kind of music....
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Hi,

Here's link to music theory pages which I have found very useful... like the
main title says 'Music Theory for Songwriters' :) ...

http://members.aol.com/chordmaps/

This guy has made charts for chord progressions, which I think are great, at
least they have helped me a lot with my songwriting - I have got my song
ideas out from my head much quicker than before. These days I quite know
those chord progressions by the bone so it has helped me a lot to realize
when it's time to break those 'progression rules'.

Here's quick link to Chord progression map for C ...
http://members.aol.com/chordmaps/mapC.htm


Cheers,
TimoS

I have heard that the Boom Town Rats,  Sex Pistols and Pet Shop Boys cant read or write music, they just play by ear...is this true?
Regards 
Dmanx

> On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 04:28 PM, Bruce Wahler wrote:
>
>
> I like ambient dance/trance and experimental electronics sounds.I 
> like using an150/reaktor/reason.I just mess with sounds and create 
> interesting noises and generate paterns/sequences and it into 
> somthing interesting or may be an intrumental peace of music.But 
> please advise if you think my approach is wrong.
>
> Your approach isn't "wrong," but it is limited in scope.  Using 
> musical tools without understanding the  musical "rules" sometimes 
> creates music; other times, it only creates noise, or maybe, one 
> memorable lick.  Really memorable music -- of any genre, including 
> ambient -- is a journey of sorts:  it has a beginning, a middle, and 
> an end.  The tools you list are great at providing the "middle" of a 
> song, but they don't do as well with the beginning and the end, unless 
> you count happy accidents along the way.  Understanding the theory 
> behind music helps to make the journey quicker and more productive.
>
>
>What a great thread- I've really enjoyed reading Bruce's thoughts on 
>this. They are well thought out and expressed, and based on experience 
>from the sound of them (thanks for sharing Bruce).
>
>However- I like to think of theory and music as having "relationships" 
>and not "rules".
>
>(although 4 part chorale voicing has "rules" and is restrictive I 
>suppose).
>
>I like to say music theory can provide insight into tonal relationships 
>- and not "rules" per say.
>I'd hate to think what would happen to music if musicians listened to 
"rules"- like the church had when they said never use the triad 
"Devil's interval".
>What would music be like in India if they adhered to a twelve tone 
>system?(shudder)....
>
>I always get really guarded when folks talk about music education 
>because I've been privy to too many instances where Theory savvy 
>musicians look down on other musicians (I called them Classical 
>Elitists when I was a kid).
>
>Dmanx- Theory can open you up to other perspectives on music.
>I think Bruce agrees that it is a tool that can empower you.
>Personally- I wish I knew more...but right now I know enough to be 
>happy and creative.
>
>So if you find it "Complex, & frustrating" right now - don't sweat 
>it.... you can make music just as you are doing right now- and look at 
>Theory & reading notation later  (I felt the same way about Theory 
>myself).
>
>I try not to look at it as "restrictive"- just another perspective that 
>cannot harm me (or turn me into an Elitist).
>
>:-)
>
>
>
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--------------------
talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com

Hi Dmanx,

>I have heard that the Boom Town Rats,  Sex Pistols and Pet Shop Boys cant read or write music, they just play by ear...is this true?

It's entirely possible, although based on some of the music I've heard from Mr. Geldorf, I suspect he knows at least a little about music theory.

However, it has little bearing on the question of whether a musician should bother to learn some musical theory and/or how to read and write music -- just as the fact that Eddie Van Halen is (was?) a classically-trained pianist of award-winning caliber has little bearing on the same topic.

I sense that you are looking for opinions that reinforce your own convictions, which seem to be, "for many styles of music, but especially for ambient and electronic music, musical training is unnecessary, and possibly irrelevant."  My personal opinions are:  1)  it is not absolutely necessary to study music to make music; and 2) studying music is still likely to make you a better creator of music.  How and where you study music is up to you, but as a general rule those who study and understand a task do better at it than those who just perform the task.  There are, of course notable exceptions, and you have to answer the question as to whether you are one of those exceptions.  However, to say that ambient music has made learning music obsolete is oversimplification at best, and more likely plain wrong.

I am an engineer by trade, with a college degree in engineering.  I have a good friend and peer who has never set foot in a college classroom; he has never formally studied engineering, yet he is every bit as good as any engineer I have met.  He is, of course, an exception to the rule.  Most engineers benefit from their training, as do most doctors, lawyers, carpenters, bookkeepers, truck drivers, and TV repairmen.

Written music is just a language, not all that different from English or Spanish.  It's not necessary to know Spanish to visit Spain, but it may make the experience more fulfilling.  Modern technology has made written music unnecessary in many situations, but there are still cases where written music can bridge a knowledge gap between two musicians:  lack of a working CD player, incompatible recording formats, etc.  If you are working with another musician, and he/she is not getting your ideas about the music, you could play a recording of the song to help her/him.  But, if you both read and write music, you could also write out your ideas.

Music theory -- the way that notes interact with each other and the listener -- is even more important than written music, because it is a tool to help the player better understand the craft.  Music is not just a random collection of sounds, just as a book is not just a random collection of letters and numbers.  You don't have to take classes in music theory to understand some of what it is about.  And, as others have mentioned, you don't have to get hung up on the rules; the pioneers in any field understand the rules, then the tend to ignore them!

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions\ufffd   http://consult.ashbysolutions.com
978.386.7389  voice/fax
bruce@...