The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

Guys,
    I had a question. I wondered, on an honest-to-god organ how is the action?

    I have a possibly old memory of the organ sounding about the same intensity if you barely touch a key as if you mash down on them. Is that memory right? 
    
    On the way home I was listening to a jazz organ and as someone once pointed out about my attempts because I wasn't doing it, the organ sort of slips and slides musically around the notes...I have a hard time explaining it but it seems like if you just glide you fingers barely touching the keys you get a glissando (or something).

    Is there ever velocity on real organs?

Jim

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Hi Jim,

>Guys,
>    I had a question. I wondered, on an honest-to-god organ how is the action?
>
>    I have a possibly old memory of the organ sounding about the same intensity if you barely touch a key as if you mash down on them. Is that memory right? 
>    
>    On the way home I was listening to a jazz organ and as someone once pointed out about my attempts because I wasn't doing it, the organ sort of slips and slides musically around the notes...I have a hard time explaining it but it seems like if you just glide you fingers barely touching the keys you get a glissando (or something).


Yes, that's correct, and is actually part of the reason for the jazz organ style that was developed by Jimmy Smith, Jack McDuff, and others:  If you can't have expressiveness through the keyboard feel, add some though the use of more grace notes and such.  In particular, the keyboard on early Hammond organs is extremely light, allowing for techniques like "machine-gun trills" and "windmill chops."  (listen to someone like Keith Emerson for examples of both.)  There is no commercially-available replacement keyboard out there yet that quite duplicates the feel of the Hammond B-3 keys -- light as a toy keyboard, yet with a solid, reliable feel.  The Hammond keys are un-weighted, but with two notable differences from a synth keyboard like the AN1x:  1) the key travel is stopped at the FRONT of the key, rather than the rear, by a short lip that goes under the front wood area; and 2) the B-3 has nine key contacts which drape metal wires across a set of buss bars, leading to a bit more "
natural" springiness than a modern keyboard, which uses spring tension to make the keys bounce back up.

>Is there ever velocity on real organs?

Some of the manufacturers added velocity sensing to later models for piano, chimes, vibes, etc. sounds, but a "real" (i.e., pre-70's) Hammond organ is velocity-free.  Hammond added a feature called "percussion" to their organs, which is actually a form of a legato triggering:  a short ping is added to the tone only if no keys are held down when the next one is struck.  It was a crude, 1950's attempt to simulate piano feel and sound.  Some recent organs use velocity triggering for their (Hammond-style) percussion voices, which is interesting -- and musically useful -- but does NOT allow for the exact same playing style.

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions\ufffd   http://consult.ashbysolutions.com
978.386.7389  voice/fax
bruce@...

on 1/7/03 12:11 PM, Bruce Wahler at bruce@... wrote:

There is a new B3 out. I sat in and played it on a friend's gig (Tony
Monaco) last month.

I played a prototype in Chicago at the factory last fall. The organ Tony
uses is the finished product. It is very nice. I could not stand the XB3
that came out about 10 or so years ago. I have only played real Hammonds
with tonewheels that you have to oil and Leslies........ whenever
possible!!! 

(However, I am a synth progger too and have an AN1X which I love among many
other boards.)

This Hammond you don't oil, but other than that, it is the best replacement
for them so far. Feels right and sounds right. Doesn't clip as soon as the
old ones, but could paired with a tube Leslie I am sure.

However this new Hammond is prolly $20K so I am keeping my tonewheel ones in
good repair!!!

http://users.belgacombusiness.net/hammond/usa-frm4.htm

You should also check Tony out. He is making a REAL name for himself
nationally in the Hammond jazz world and provides instructional materials on
his website. He is not one of those players who shoves in all the drawbars
after he plays to keep "Hammond trade secrets". He will share his knowledge
freely through his instructional materials. One nice fellow, also.

http://www.b3monaco.com/

Linda
http://www.dachtyl.com

> Hi Jim,
> 
>> Guys,
>> I had a question. I wondered, on an honest-to-god organ how is the action?
>> 
>> I have a possibly old memory of the organ sounding about the same intensity
>> if you barely touch a key as if you mash down on them. Is that memory right?
>> 
>> On the way home I was listening to a jazz organ and as someone once pointed
>> out about my attempts because I wasn't doing it, the organ sort of slips and
>> slides musically around the notes...I have a hard time explaining it but it
>> seems like if you just glide you fingers barely touching the keys you get a
>> glissando (or something).
> 
> 
> Yes, that's correct, and is actually part of the reason for the jazz organ
> style that was developed by Jimmy Smith, Jack McDuff, and others:  If you
> can't have expressiveness through the keyboard feel, add some though the use
> of more grace notes and such.  In particular, the keyboard on early Hammond
> organs is extremely light, allowing for techniques like "machine-gun trills"
> and "windmill chops."  (listen to someone like Keith Emerson for examples of
> both.)  There is no commercially-available replacement keyboard out there yet
> that quite duplicates the feel of the Hammond B-3 keys -- light as a toy
> keyboard, yet with a solid, reliable feel.  The Hammond keys are un-weighted,
> but with two notable differences from a synth keyboard like the AN1x:  1) the
> key travel is stopped at the FRONT of the key, rather than the rear, by a
> short lip that goes under the front wood area; and 2) the B-3 has nine key
> contacts which drape metal wires across a set of buss bars, leading to a bit
> more "
> natural" springiness than a modern keyboard, which uses spring tension to make
> the keys bounce back up.
> 
>> Is there ever velocity on real organs?
> 
> Some of the manufacturers added velocity sensing to later models for piano,
> chimes, vibes, etc. sounds, but a "real" (i.e., pre-70's) Hammond organ is
> velocity-free.  Hammond added a feature called "percussion" to their organs,
> which is actually a form of a legato triggering:  a short ping is added to the
> tone only if no keys are held down when the next one is struck.  It was a
> crude, 1950's attempt to simulate piano feel and sound.  Some recent organs
> use velocity triggering for their (Hammond-style) percussion voices, which is
> interesting -- and musically useful -- but does NOT allow for the exact same
> playing style.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -BW

>     I have a possibly old memory of the organ sounding about the 
same intensity if you barely touch a key as if you mash down on them. 
Is that memory right? 

Yes and no. I though I would add to Bruce's excellent post with a 
perspective of my own. The Hammonds B3s (the most often emulated) did 
not have a designed-in velocity sensitivity. However there was a 
slight velocity sensitivity associated with it due to the following.

Each of the 9 drawbars in the hammond have an associated contact 
within the key. I travel you hand down slowly, you hear the electric 
contact noise and each of the drawbars will come in at slightly 
different presures (manufacturing tolerance and wear). So if you play 
rapidly some of the drawbars don't have time to speak. Which is why a 
number of players used staccato to great effect. With varying degrees 
of staccato, the sound would change as some harmonics would be 
sounded or not. Thats one of the reasons for the "fiery" staccato 
technique. It was unintenionally velocity sensitive.

Regards,

Jerry