The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tuskermusic" <tuskerfort@...>
To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 5:13 PM
Subject: [AN1x] Sound design - bagpipes


> Well, here's a challenge.
> 
> How do you make the sound of bagpipes on the AN1X?


Take a bag of cats....poke the bag with the AN1X...


There...that was simple !

Jim

> 
> Why? Well I am doing this attempted irish jig/reel duet with a hammer 
> dulcimer player. (We are fans of the Chieftains.) Mostly I am 
> providing sounds like strings, some low percussion and the odd flute. 
> I am using a rompler for most of these sounds. Trouble is I want to 
> put bagpipes in the mix when the tune soars.
> 
> Think of Mull of Kintyre where the tune modulates up a fourth and the 
> sound of distant bagpipes comes in. I'd like to do something like 
> that (many bagpipes, in the distance).
> 
> Why not do it on the rompler? Well the bagpipe sample stinks and has 
> that reedy quality that is harsh without being evocative. I think 
> that if I did it on the AN1x, it would at least be sweet. I can keep 
> the volume relatively low and mixed in behind some strings.
> 
> I am thinking two scenes, four oscillators, fairly thin pulse waves, 
> lots of pulse width modulation, lfo pitch modulation and chorus. A 
> little pitch bend (up?) on attack, maybe a a tiny bit of osc sync 
> swept by the pitch bend envelope to give that reedy squeal on the 
> attack.
> 
> Does this sound right? How should I approach the patch?
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>

From: "tuskermusic" <tuskerfort@...>

> Well, here's a challenge.
>
> How do you make the sound of bagpipes on the AN1X?

Not?

> Think of Mull of Kintyre where the tune modulates up a fourth and the
> sound of distant bagpipes comes in. I'd like to do something like
> that (many bagpipes, in the distance).

Now that's a very long time ago, that song.

One of the best renditions of bagpipes I know is on Vangelis' track
'Voices', from the album with the same name. Reportedly, this was done with
a Yamaha VL-1 physical modelling synthesiser. (I'm playing the track right
now, because I quite like it.)

To do it with an analogue modelling synthesiser may be quite a challenge.
There are quite a few sounds you can't do with one, like a piano or a guitar
(either acoustic or electric). Maybe a bagpipe is one of them.

It could be a challenge, especially if you want to make it sound
half-decent, and if you want more than one.

After all, the same track has a Yamaha CS-80 in it, and even that it nearly
impossible to do with an AN1x...

- Peter

First find a patch kind of "bassoony" (or any double-reed type  instrument
sound) on the AN1X,  use it twice (layer the patch), detune + and - on the
cents on each of the single patches until it sounds right. I hope I am using
the proper terms here as I have number of synths and find it hard to keep
all the terms straight for each one with its individual idiosyncrasies.

If you can layer 3 patches of the same single patch, put one "in tune" and
the other two detuned the same amount.....one on the + side, the other on
the - side.

That should get you close. I am not one to involve algebra in these kinds of
things, just tweak, tweak, tweak till you get what you want...;-)

(I did this on an Ensoniq TS-12 and the result was excellent. Order my cd if
you want to hear it;-).....)

Linda
--
"I don't make music for sissies"--Charles Ives
http://www.dachtyl.com/


tuskermusic wrote:

> I am thinking two scenes, four oscillators, fairly thin pulse waves,
> lots of pulse width modulation, lfo pitch modulation and chorus. A
> little pitch bend (up?) on attack, maybe a a tiny bit of osc sync
> swept by the pitch bend envelope to give that reedy squeal on the
> attack.
>
> Does this sound right? How should I approach the patch?
>
> Jerry
>

Linda's suggestions are a great start.  One other thing:  The sound of bagpipes includes a lot of drone notes, courtesy of the three pipes on the top of the bag.  I believe that the sound is either fourths or fifths, but it's definitely there anytime that the bagpipes make a noise.  I would start with Linda's tonal suggestion (bassoon), and use Scene 1 to create a moderately detuned Mono Unison sound that sounds like the "lead" note.

Now comes the tricky part.  I don't think that the AN1x allows the VCOs to be disconnected from the keyboard, but you need to make some notes that don't follow the keyboard.  Copy Scene 1 to Scene 2.  Go to Scene 2 and set the two VCOs a fifth apart, and lower the volume by 20-25%.  Then go to the control matrix (Matrix 2 in AN1xEdit) and set the first two modulators like so:

Mod 1 -- Src -> Key Track,  Param -> VCO1 Pitch,  Amt -> -32
Mod 2 -- Src -> Key Track,  Param -> VCO2 Pitch,  Amt -> -32

This will cause the VCO pitch to both rise as you go up the keyboard, plus fall at the same time!  Now, you'll have to play around with the pitch of VCO1 and VCO2, and the two modulators' value, until the pitch remains at a musical fifth, about one octave below the "solo" part, in the "correct" key, NO MATTER WHAT NOTE YOU HIT ON THE AN1x.  In other words, the sound will just drone as a fifth whenever a key is hit; the actual key struck doesn't matter.

Now, set the mode to Dual, and adjust the balance between the solo tone and the drone.  You may have to re-tune the pitch of the drone notes to match the final result; I have no idea what key a bagpipe drones in.

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions\ufffd   http://music.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389  voice/fax
bruce@...


At 04:48 P 3/1/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>First find a patch kind of "bassoony" (or any double-reed type  instrument
>sound) on the AN1X,  use it twice (layer the patch), detune + and - on the
>cents on each of the single patches until it sounds right. I hope I am using
>the proper terms here as I have number of synths and find it hard to keep
>all the terms straight for each one with its individual idiosyncrasies.
>
>If you can layer 3 patches of the same single patch, put one "in tune" and
>the other two detuned the same amount.....one on the + side, the other on
>the - side.
>
>That should get you close. I am not one to involve algebra in these kinds of
>things, just tweak, tweak, tweak till you get what you want...;-)
>
>(I did this on an Ensoniq TS-12 and the result was excellent. Order my cd if
>you want to hear it;-).....)
>
>Linda
>--
>"I don't make music for sissies"--Charles Ives
><http://www.dachtyl.com/>http://www.dachtyl.com/
>
>
>tuskermusic wrote:
>
>> I am thinking two scenes, four oscillators, fairly thin pulse waves,
>> lots of pulse width modulation, lfo pitch modulation and chorus. A
>> little pitch bend (up?) on attack, maybe a a tiny bit of osc sync
>> swept by the pitch bend envelope to give that reedy squeal on the
>> attack.
>>
>> Does this sound right? How should I approach the patch?
>>
>> Jerry
>>

I was kidding in my "bag o' cats" suggestion, but you guys are amazing. This is really well thought out and interesting!

I wasn't the original poster asking about this, but thanks anyway to you AND Linda. You folks are amazing!


=============================================================
Please check out my original music at my site http://home.online.no/~jacker
Or at http://www.soundclick.com/bands/jacker_music.htm
It's time for Bush-Cheney and co. to stop seeing
the US as their own private monopoly board
-James R. Acker-
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Bruce Wahler" <bruce@...>
To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [AN1x] Sound design - bagpipes


> Linda's suggestions are a great start.  One other thing:  The sound of bagpipes includes a lot of drone notes, courtesy of the three pipes on the top of the bag.  I believe that the sound is either fourths or fifths, but it's definitely there anytime that the bagpipes make a noise.  I would start with Linda's tonal suggestion (bassoon), and use Scene 1 to create a moderately detuned Mono Unison sound that sounds like the "lead" note.
> 
> Now comes the tricky part.  I don't think that the AN1x allows the VCOs to be disconnected from the keyboard, but you need to make some notes that don't follow the keyboard.  Copy Scene 1 to Scene 2.  Go to Scene 2 and set the two VCOs a fifth apart, and lower the volume by 20-25%.  Then go to the control matrix (Matrix 2 in AN1xEdit) and set the first two modulators like so:
> 
> Mod 1 -- Src -> Key Track,  Param -> VCO1 Pitch,  Amt -> -32
> Mod 2 -- Src -> Key Track,  Param -> VCO2 Pitch,  Amt -> -32
> 
> This will cause the VCO pitch to both rise as you go up the keyboard, plus fall at the same time!  Now, you'll have to play around with the pitch of VCO1 and VCO2, and the two modulators' value, until the pitch remains at a musical fifth, about one octave below the "solo" part, in the "correct" key, NO MATTER WHAT NOTE YOU HIT ON THE AN1x.  In other words, the sound will just drone as a fifth whenever a key is hit; the actual key struck doesn't matter.
> 
> Now, set the mode to Dual, and adjust the balance between the solo tone and the drone.  You may have to re-tune the pitch of the drone notes to match the final result; I have no idea what key a bagpipe drones in.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -BW
> 
> --
> Bruce Wahler
> Ashby SolutionsT   http://music.ashbysolutions.com
> CloneWheel Support Group moderator
> 978.386.7389  voice/fax
> bruce@...
> 
> 
> At 04:48 P 3/1/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >First find a patch kind of "bassoony" (or any double-reed type  instrument
> >sound) on the AN1X,  use it twice (layer the patch), detune + and - on the
> >cents on each of the single patches until it sounds right. I hope I am using
> >the proper terms here as I have number of synths and find it hard to keep
> >all the terms straight for each one with its individual idiosyncrasies.
> >
> >If you can layer 3 patches of the same single patch, put one "in tune" and
> >the other two detuned the same amount.....one on the + side, the other on
> >the - side.
> >
> >That should get you close. I am not one to involve algebra in these kinds of
> >things, just tweak, tweak, tweak till you get what you want...;-)
> >
> >(I did this on an Ensoniq TS-12 and the result was excellent. Order my cd if
> >you want to hear it;-).....)
> >
> >Linda
> >--
> >"I don't make music for sissies"--Charles Ives
> ><http://www.dachtyl.com/>http://www.dachtyl.com/
> >
> >
> >tuskermusic wrote:
> >
> >> I am thinking two scenes, four oscillators, fairly thin pulse waves,
> >> lots of pulse width modulation, lfo pitch modulation and chorus. A
> >> little pitch bend (up?) on attack, maybe a a tiny bit of osc sync
> >> swept by the pitch bend envelope to give that reedy squeal on the
> >> attack.
> >>
> >> Does this sound right? How should I approach the patch?
> >>
> >> Jerry
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>

James,

Thanks!  The only concern that I have is whether one scene on the AN1x is enough to capture the sound of the pipe, as the output is fairly complex in timbre.  If anyone succeeds in creating a convincing patch, please post it to the Files section.

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler (who doesn't know bagpipes, but passes Mulligan Tire every time he goes to the airport!)
Ashby Solutions™   http://music.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group moderator
978.386.7389  voice/fax
bruce@...

At 11:11 A 3/2/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>I was kidding in my "bag o' cats" suggestion, but you guys are amazing. This is really well thought out and interesting!
>
>I wasn't the original poster asking about this, but thanks anyway to you AND Linda. You folks are amazing!
>
>
>=============================================================
>Please check out my original music at my site <http://home.online.no/~jacker>http://home.online.no/~jacker
>Or at <http://www.soundclick.com/bands/jacker_music.htm>http://www.soundclick.com/bands/jacker_music.htm
>It's time for Bush-Cheney and co. to stop seeing
>the US as their own private monopoly board
>-James R. Acker-
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Bruce Wahler" <bruce@...>
>To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 1:55 AM
>Subject: Re: [AN1x] Sound design - bagpipes
>
>
>> Linda's suggestions are a great start.  One other thing:  The sound of bagpipes includes a lot of drone notes, courtesy of the three pipes on the top of the bag.  I believe that the sound is either fourths or fifths, but it's definitely there anytime that the bagpipes make a noise.  I would start with Linda's tonal suggestion (bassoon), and use Scene 1 to create a moderately detuned Mono Unison sound that sounds like the "lead" note.
>> 
>> Now comes the tricky part.  I don't think that the AN1x allows the VCOs to be disconnected from the keyboard, but you need to make some notes that don't follow the keyboard.  Copy Scene 1 to Scene 2.  Go to Scene 2 and set the two VCOs a fifth apart, and lower the volume by 20-25%.  Then go to the control matrix (Matrix 2 in AN1xEdit) and set the first two modulators like so:
>> 
>> Mod 1 -- Src -> Key Track,  Param -> VCO1 Pitch,  Amt -> -32
>> Mod 2 -- Src -> Key Track,  Param -> VCO2 Pitch,  Amt -> -32
>> 
>> This will cause the VCO pitch to both rise as you go up the keyboard, plus fall at the same time!  Now, you'll have to play around with the pitch of VCO1 and VCO2, and the two modulators' value, until the pitch remains at a musical fifth, about one octave below the "solo" part, in the "correct" key, NO MATTER WHAT NOTE YOU HIT ON THE AN1x.  In other words, the sound will just drone as a fifth whenever a key is hit; the actual key struck doesn't matter.
>> 
>> Now, set the mode to Dual, and adjust the balance between the solo tone and the drone.  You may have to re-tune the pitch of the drone notes to match the final result; I have no idea what key a bagpipe drones in.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> -BW
>> 
>> --
>> Bruce Wahler
>> Ashby SolutionsT   <http://music.ashbysolutions.com>http://music.ashbysolutions.com
>> CloneWheel Support Group moderator
>> 978.386.7389  voice/fax
>> bruce@...m
>> 
>> 
>> At 04:48 P 3/1/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> >First find a patch kind of "bassoony" (or any double-reed type  instrument
>> >sound) on the AN1X,  use it twice (layer the patch), detune + and - on the
>> >cents on each of the single patches until it sounds right. I hope I am using
>> >the proper terms here as I have number of synths and find it hard to keep
>> >all the terms straight for each one with its individual idiosyncrasies.
>> >
>> >If you can layer 3 patches of the same single patch, put one "in tune" and
>> >the other two detuned the same amount.....one on the + side, the other on
>> >the - side.
>> >
>> >That should get you close. I am not one to involve algebra in these kinds of
>> >things, just tweak, tweak, tweak till you get what you want...;-)
>> >
>> >(I did this on an Ensoniq TS-12 and the result was excellent. Order my cd if
>> >you want to hear it;-).....)
>> >
>> >Linda
>> >--
>> >"I don't make music for sissies"--Charles Ives
>> ><<http://www.dachtyl.com/>http://www.dachtyl.com/>http://www.dachtyl.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >tuskermusic wrote:
>> >
>> >> I am thinking two scenes, four oscillators, fairly thin pulse waves,
>> >> lots of pulse width modulation, lfo pitch modulation and chorus. A
>> >> little pitch bend (up?) on attack, maybe a a tiny bit of osc sync
>> >> swept by the pitch bend envelope to give that reedy squeal on the
>> >> attack.
>> >>
>> >> Does this sound right? How should I approach the patch?
>> >>
>> >> Jerry
>> >>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Community email addresses:
>>   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
>>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>> 
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>>    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>>  
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well. I am the original poster, and I have to echo the sentiment. You 
guys are amazing. Great ideas, I hope I can implement them decently. 
Thanks very much Bruce and Linda. 

Oh btw, I don't know if the AN1X can do it either. But I am more 
worried about me... not knowing well enough what I am shooting for, 
or being sloppy. If I get it right enough I'll post it. I used to 
practice (french horn) with some bagpipers and I thought I would 
never forget their sound, but I guess time heals all wounds. ;)

....now to find some bagpipe samples on that wonderful web of ours.

Thanks again,

Jerry

--- In AN1x-list@y..., "tuskermusic" <tuskerfort@h...> wrote:
> ....now to find some bagpipe samples on that wonderful web of 
ours.
> 

For good quality, low cost samples along the lines of this thread 
I would recommend you check out the 'New World Order' sound   
banks from Sounds Good at Primesounds 
http://www.primesounds.com/ 

They offer real audio previews and the downloads are available 
as WAV, AIFF or MP3 (which is available for faster downloads but 
and you;ll need to convert the MP3 into a format compatible with 
your sampler, obviously) IMO, the sample quality is very good for 
cost. A one month subscription use to cost less than $15 USD 
but I believe there has been a modest price increase. I haven't 
renewed my subscription since it expired during the new year.

I downloaded MANY (if not all) the NWO series, Vol. 1 & 2, as I 
just can't get enough ethnic samples. You'll specifically want to 
check out the European selection of the NWO Sound Banks  for 
Bagpipe & Penny Whistle samples. You'll be quite pleased. As 
an alternative low cost selection you might check out eSoundz or 
Time & Space's Creative Essentials series.

regards,

Jon