The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

I was hoping some of you might have some tips or pointers for me. I 
am trying to prepare a soprano saxophone patch on the AN1x. Although 
I have access to other synths I would like to do this without 
resorting to the sax samples on my rompler, so that I can build in 
some of the modulation capability of the AN1X.

Actually the sound I am trying to copy is an Electronic Wind 
Instrument sound that sounds kinda like a cross between an alto sax 
and a soprano sax with that puffy, reedy quality. I don't have to 
nail it, but I probably need to get better than I am getting which is 
a brassy trumpet like tone. The trouble is the sound is going to play 
with a brass section doing stabs and the like, so I really want to 
get some uniqueness of character for the synth.

Here's some ideas I have been trying:

- reduce filter envelope amount to reduce brassiness
- try pulse waves instead of saw (I assume narrow pulse width is good)
- try different tunings for oscillators (not sure what settings to 
try)
- try oscillator sync to add some unusual overtones (not sure what 
settings to try)

Well, when I do this, the sound seems to become more like a synth 
solo (thin and piercing), than a sax solo (warm and fluffy). So I am 
wondering where I might be going wrong.

Any advice?

Thx,

Jerry

From: "Jerry Aiyathurai" <tuskerfort@...>

> I was hoping some of you might have some tips or pointers for me. I
> am trying to prepare a soprano saxophone patch on the AN1x.
>
> [...]
>
> Any advice?

Get a Yamaha VL70m.

Seriously, the AN1x is very good at analogue sounds. And that's also the
limitation that you have to work with. Realistic pianos are impossible with
it, and I'd wager a bet that the same goes for saxophone sounds.

I have an EX5, which apart from the usual S&S also has an AN part and a VL
(virtual acoustic) synthesis engine. The saxes you get from it are gorgeous.
But using an AN1x to get to the sound you want may be comparable to tuning a
4x4 car to compete in Formula 1 racing.

I'm not the expert, so don't take my word for it, but if you want something
that can be roughly identified as a saxophone, I think you're better of with
a different synthesis engine.

- Peter

I would agree with Peter, but the VL series synths are expensive.  They've
got just soooo sweeet expressiveness, though, and with the right controller
you can even fool "real musicans" with one.  I've heard wind synths do
amazing things through a VL.  I saw a live keyboardist sound really close to
a guitar with one.

My second choice would be a sampler, due to their versatility.  (I've got an
Akai S2000.)  But though you can pick one up for less than $400, the
expressiveness is a bit limited and then there's money necessary here also.

Third choice might sound rediculous at first, but consider a modern "K-Mart"
synth used.  The Yamaha PCM series has some great samples in it, including
reverbs and you can get one for well under $100.  No kidding, have a listen
to one, you might be surprized at how useful they can be.

Ed Edwards
Leader: Ezekiel's Wheel\ufffd      \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffdRetro-Progressive Rock\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd
http://www.untiedmusic.com/ezekiel
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/227/ezekiels_wheel.html
\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd
\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Korsten" <peterk@...>
To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Wind instrument sound on an AN1x


> From: "Jerry Aiyathurai" <tuskerfort@...>
>
> > I was hoping some of you might have some tips or pointers for me. I
> > am trying to prepare a soprano saxophone patch on the AN1x.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Any advice?
>
> Get a Yamaha VL70m.
>
> Seriously, the AN1x is very good at analogue sounds. And that's also the
> limitation that you have to work with. Realistic pianos are impossible
with
> it, and I'd wager a bet that the same goes for saxophone sounds.
>
> I have an EX5, which apart from the usual S&S also has an AN part and a VL
> (virtual acoustic) synthesis engine. The saxes you get from it are
gorgeous.
> But using an AN1x to get to the sound you want may be comparable to tuning
a
> 4x4 car to compete in Formula 1 racing.
>
> I'm not the expert, so don't take my word for it, but if you want
something
> that can be roughly identified as a saxophone, I think you're better of
with

> a different synthesis engine.
>
> - Peter
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Ok, here's another idea.  The VL70m is like $800, right?

You can pick up an XG unit fairly cheap (considering what you get) that lets
you add the plg cards.  They have a "blowout" of mu100 for $580 at
music123.com...and although that's not cheap...
The PLG card for the VL stuff is pretty cheap I think...like $149 + the host
So the total for the mu100 + VL plg card = $729...still cheaper than the
vl70m and you get all those extra sounds.

Or...if you don't mind involving your PC (read: you don't need this live),
you can get the sw1000xg for under $500...I've seen them go for $380 on
ebay...This also gives you the option of plg cards (even another 1/2 an1x if
you want to swap cards back and forth or eventually get a plugstation), and
12 channels of "audio" for attachment to a seqencer, like Cakewalk, etc.

That's a pretty good bit less expensive than the vl70m and gives you lots of
options.

I hope that is of some value.
Blades


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Edwards" <edward.edwards@...>
To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Wind instrument sound on an AN1x


> I would agree with Peter, but the VL series synths are expensive.  They've
> got just soooo sweeet expressiveness, though, and with the right
controller
> you can even fool "real musicans" with one.  I've heard wind synths do
> amazing things through a VL.  I saw a live keyboardist sound really close
to
> a guitar with one.
>
> My second choice would be a sampler, due to their versatility.  (I've got
an
> Akai S2000.)  But though you can pick one up for less than $400, the
> expressiveness is a bit limited and then there's money necessary here
also.
>
> Third choice might sound rediculous at first, but consider a modern
"K-Mart"
> synth used.  The Yamaha PCM series has some great samples in it, including
> reverbs and you can get one for well under $100.  No kidding, have a
listen
> to one, you might be surprized at how useful they can be.
>
> Ed Edwards
> Leader: Ezekiel's Wheel\ufffd      \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffdRetro-Progressive Rock\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd
> http://www.untiedmusic.com/ezekiel
> http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/227/ezekiels_wheel.html
> \ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd
> \ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Korsten" <peterk@...>
> To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 8:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Wind instrument sound on an AN1x
>
>
> > From: "Jerry Aiyathurai" <tuskerfort@...>
> >
> > > I was hoping some of you might have some tips or pointers for me. I
> > > am trying to prepare a soprano saxophone patch on the AN1x.
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > Any advice?
> >
> > Get a Yamaha VL70m.
> >
> > Seriously, the AN1x is very good at analogue sounds. And that's also the
> > limitation that you have to work with. Realistic pianos are impossible
> with
> > it, and I'd wager a bet that the same goes for saxophone sounds.
> >
> > I have an EX5, which apart from the usual S&S also has an AN part and a
VL
> > (virtual acoustic) synthesis engine. The saxes you get from it are
> gorgeous.
> > But using an AN1x to get to the sound you want may be comparable to
tuning
> a
> > 4x4 car to compete in Formula 1 racing.
> >
> > I'm not the expert, so don't take my word for it, but if you want
> something
> > that can be roughly identified as a saxophone, I think you're better of
> with
> > a different synthesis engine.
> >
> > - Peter
> >
> >
> >
> > Community email addresses:
> >   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
> >   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Shortcut URL to this page:
> >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Yeah, I know. Use the right tool for the job. :)

The synth in question sounds like it could be a VL1. It has that 
slightly plastic shimmery quality, and inflections are very windlike. 
The idea of getting the daughterboard with a mu80 is a cool one. 
Thanks for the tip. I may look into getting a vl instrument 
sometime.....

At the moment though, I am not trying to imitate a sax. I have plenty 
of decent saxophones on my rompler. I am trying to get a  reedy, 
shimmery voice with a slightly puffy (like air coming through the 
reed) attack on the AN1x. Close counts. If I can get that base sound, 
I think the AN1x can smoke the VL1 for expressiveness, with the 
analog control it has. I just need that reedy quality. I think I am 
going to study the cello patch (the one from the JP8000) to see how 
they get it to sound reedy.

Interestingly, some of the Akai EWI modules are true analog.

Regards,

Jerry

From: "Jerry Aiyathurai" <tuskerfort@...>

> Yeah, I know. Use the right tool for the job. :)
>
> The synth in question sounds like it could be a VL1. It has that
> slightly plastic shimmery quality, and inflections are very windlike.
> The idea of getting the daughterboard with a mu80 is a cool one.
> Thanks for the tip. I may look into getting a vl instrument
> sometime.....

Off the top of my head, the synthesisers that do virtual acoustic:

* Korg Prophecy
* Korg Z1
* Korg MOSS board for Trinity/Triton
* Yamaha VL1
* Yamaha VP1 (good luck finding one, let alone afford one)
* Yamaha VL1m
* Yamaha VL7
* Yamaha VL70m
* Yamaha EX5/EX5r (NOT the EX7)
* Yamaha PLG150VL (or is it the PLG100VL?)

There another one, that does a kind-of virtual acoustic (by Technics if I'm
not mistaken), but it was never a success. And there are several soft
synths.

> At the moment though, I am not trying to imitate a sax. I have plenty
> of decent saxophones on my rompler. I am trying to get a  reedy,
> shimmery voice with a slightly puffy (like air coming through the
> reed) attack on the AN1x. Close counts. If I can get that base sound,
> I think the AN1x can smoke the VL1 for expressiveness, with the
> analog control it has.

Eh, no way. The VL synthesis is *very* expressive. A keyboard is just not
the right controller for it. You need at least a breath controller, and more
likely a wind controller like the Yamaha WX5. A S&S ('rompler') saxophone
patch can't even hope to compare to a VL saxophone.

If you want to do reeds, I really think you need VL synthesis. It doesn't
have to sound like a real sax with VL synthesis, though. You can replace
part of the 'instrument' by a plucked string, for instance.

I'm not the expert on VL synthesis and it's off-topic for this list anyway,
but it's a very powerful and flexible kind of synthesis. It is, for
instance, very suited for analogue emulation.

But don't let my doubts stop you from trying, of course.

- Peter

From: "Ed Edwards" <edward.edwards@...>

> I would agree with Peter, but the VL series synths are expensive.  They've
> got just soooo sweeet expressiveness, though, and with the right
controller
> you can even fool "real musicans" with one.  I've heard wind synths do
> amazing things through a VL.  I saw a live keyboardist sound really close
to
> a guitar with one.

Which one was that? I've been looking at the Korg Z1 once, but apart from
that the keyboard is identical to my EX5's (I believe Korg get their
keyboards from Yamaha) I found it pretty expensive for what it does,
especially because I already have an AN1x that does much of the same thing.
Yamaha's acoustic modelling also sounds better to my ears.

So the search is still on to complement my AN1x and EX5. My interest now
focuses on something virtual analogue (Virus, Supernova) and perhaps one of
those yummy new samplers from Akai (Z4, Z8). Unfortunately, I won't have the
money for them for the next 350 years.

- Peter

--- In AN1x-list@y..., "Jerry Aiyathurai" <tuskerfort@h...> wrote:
> I was hoping some of you might have some tips or pointers for me. I 
> am trying to prepare a soprano saxophone patch on the AN1x. 
Although 
> I have access to other synths I would like to do this without 
> resorting to the sax samples on my rompler, so that I can build in 
> some of the modulation capability of the AN1X.
> 
> Actually the sound I am trying to copy is an Electronic Wind 
> Instrument sound that sounds kinda like a cross between an alto sax 
> and a soprano sax with that puffy, reedy quality. I don't have to 
> nail it, but I probably need to get better than I am getting which 
is 
> a brassy trumpet like tone. The trouble is the sound is going to 
play 
> with a brass section doing stabs and the like, so I really want to 
> get some uniqueness of character for the synth.

The key is stop trying to create something that -sounds- like a sax 
and start creating something that behaves like a sax. This is aways 
the essence of phyical modelling. So start by thinking about the 
modulators -

Remember a sax player sustains a note by blowing, not by holding down 
a key. Blowing creates a very dynamic sound envelope which is not 
simulatable using an ADSR envelope. 

An envelope can do some work for you by creating the attack of the 
note - but to get something that really sounds like a sax you have to 
control the volume of the sustained phase by a physical controler 
like aftertouch or the ribbon. This lets you simulate breath pressure.

Secondly a sax changes tone quite drastically as you move higher in 
register - so set you filter to mimic this using note-number.

The tone of a sax is quite nasal, combined with some metalic 
resonances. I would start with a pulse wave, and a band-pass filter. 
Have the filter increase cut-off and resonance as note-number 
increases. The resonance should get quite high for higher notes 
(remember a high note is a high note for the sax - essentially a 2 
octave instrument - not for you keyboard). Use a little plate reverb 
to add some metal to the sound.

Lip pressure on the reed of the sax can bend the note by a semi-tone 
or so. This is a feature of the instrument that players often use to 
create effects like the classic strip-joint sax sound. Try to build 
this into your "model" by having the pich bend set to +- 1/2 tone. 

The pitching of notes by lip pressure implies that a sax is often 
heard "bending into the note" during the attack phase and bending out 
during the release - try setting up a rapid pitch envelope to do 
this. 

For extra realism, use another controler to add "lip" vibrato to the 
note and one more to add in white noise for the breath sound that 
sits under every note on the instrument.

Remember a sax is a monophonic instrument - so use your second hand 
to manipulate the controlers. Even if the base sound is not so to say 
photo-realistic - the ear is often more convinced by hearing the 
typical playing idioms of the instrument than by an exact duplication 
of its harmonic spectrum.


Aidan.

--- In AN1x-list@y..., "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:
perhaps one of
> those yummy new samplers from Akai (Z4, Z8). Unfortunately, I won't 
have the
> money for them for the next 350 years.

Ha, women are expensive...i am telling you...How do you like Malta so 
far? Is it still warm there?

Alternative for those samplers would be the emagic EXS24 or Steinberg 
Halion, wouldn´t it? Or even check out "Sample Tank".

> > amazing things through a VL.  I saw a live keyboardist sound really
close
> to
> > a guitar with one.
>
> Which one was that? I've been looking at the Korg Z1 once, but apart from

Dunno.  I was close enough to see the VL in the rack but didn't catch the
model.  The group was Mastermind, one of my favorite prog rock monsters.
The keyboardist was Mickey Simmons.
http://k2nesoft.k2nesoft.com/mastermind/

Ed Edwards
Leader: Ezekiel's Wheel\ufffd      \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffdRetro-Progressive Rock\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd
http://www.untiedmusic.com/ezekiel
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/227/ezekiels_wheel.html
\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd
\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd.\ufffd\ufffd


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Korsten" <peterk@...>
To: <AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [AN1x-list] Wind instrument sound on an AN1x


> From: "Ed Edwards" <edward.edwards@...>
>
> > I would agree with Peter, but the VL series synths are expensive.
They've
> > got just soooo sweeet expressiveness, though, and with the right
> controller
> > you can even fool "real musicans" with one.  I've heard wind synths do
> > amazing things through a VL.  I saw a live keyboardist sound really
close
> to
> > a guitar with one.
>
> Which one was that? I've been looking at the Korg Z1 once, but apart from
> that the keyboard is identical to my EX5's (I believe Korg get their
> keyboards from Yamaha) I found it pretty expensive for what it does,
> especially because I already have an AN1x that does much of the same
thing.
> Yamaha's acoustic modelling also sounds better to my ears.
>
> So the search is still on to complement my AN1x and EX5. My interest now
> focuses on something virtual analogue (Virus, Supernova) and perhaps one
of
> those yummy new samplers from Akai (Z4, Z8). Unfortunately, I won't have
the

> money for them for the next 350 years.
>
> - Peter
>
>
>
> Community email addresses:
>   Post message: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    AN1x-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  AN1x-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   List owner:   AN1x-list-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AN1x-list
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> The key is stop trying to create something that -sounds- like a sax 
> and start creating something that behaves like a sax. This is aways 
> the essence of phyical modelling. So start by thinking about the 
> modulators -

Aidan:

Your pointers were very helpful. Thanks very much.

Jerry

From: "Thomas" <tomfinegan@...>

> --- In AN1x-list@y..., "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:
> perhaps one of
> > those yummy new samplers from Akai (Z4, Z8). Unfortunately, I won't
> have the
> > money for them for the next 350 years.
>
> Ha, women are expensive...i am telling you...How do you like Malta so
> far? Is it still warm there?

Yes, still around 30 degrees, and it will remain so for some time. I believe
it's colder and wetter as you ascend into northern Europe. :)

> Alternative for those samplers would be the emagic EXS24 or Steinberg
> Halion, wouldn\ufffdt it? Or even check out "Sample Tank".

I don't think I'll ever buy a software instrument. Those Akai's are like
software samplers, but built into hardware. They use DIMMs instead of
unavailable and expensive SIMMs. They support 24 bit, 96 kHz sampling.
They're small. And they look like an Elektrix.

Anyway, would anyone here prefer a software analogue modelling synth over
the AN1x? Even the PLG150AN is just one step too far for me.

- Peter

From: "Ed Edwards" <edward.edwards@...>

> > Which one was that? I've been looking at the Korg Z1 once, but apart
from
>
> Dunno.  I was close enough to see the VL in the rack but didn't catch the
> model.  The group was Mastermind, one of my favorite prog rock monsters.
> The keyboardist was Mickey Simmons.
> http://k2nesoft.k2nesoft.com/mastermind/

I've been looking at the photos, but I can't tell what or where it could be.
If it's a 3U 19" module, it's a VL1-m. If it's a 1U half-rack module, it's a
VL70-m.

The VL1 (and the VL7) is an extremely good looking keyboard, which makes you
wonder who is responsible for the complete turkey that the AN1x is (in terms
of case design, that is). It features a brass-and-wood case - or something
that looks remarkably like that.

- Peter

--- In AN1x-list@y..., "Peter Korsten" <peterk@i...> wrote:

> Anyway, would anyone here prefer a software analogue modelling 
synth over
> the AN1x? Even the PLG150AN is just one step too far for me.
Oh i know what you mean...That´s why i recently bought a s/h Fostex 
DMT8 for HD-recording instead of getting a new multitrack soundcard 
for my rusty PIII 500.

--Tom

Hello,

well in defense of Z1/Prophecy I have to say 

u have 4 superb complete Lfos and 4 Envs

that are sadly lacking on Ex5 and AN1X and Tg77/SY99 

I think Yamaha must hate Lfos,  in all of their synth
top or not top of line they are always
1) not so many and 2) very basic compare to 
others (lfo2 on AN1X is almost a joke :-(((( ) 


Lfos in SW are easy to implement so I really don't understand 
why it is so. 

Besides I LOVE Lfos especially in SUBTRACTIVE synthesis 
they are never enough and indispensable to MOVE 
sounds. 

(I adore my JD800/JD990 8 (EIGHT) Lfos with delays fade trig + -)

Regards

-------------------------------------ENV1-----ENV2---ENV3--------------
Andrea TONI                          VCO1 \    |      |
Solar System and Space               VCO2-->--VCF--->VCA---->DUCATI 996 
Science Division (SO)                VCO3 /    |      | 
-------------------------------------LFO1-----LFO2---LFO3--------------
email: Andrea.Toni@...           http://solarsystem.estec.esa.nl

> Which one was that? I've been looking at the Korg Z1 once, but apart from
> that the keyboard is identical to my EX5's (I believe Korg get their
> keyboards from Yamaha) I found it pretty expensive for what it does,
> especially because I already have an AN1x that does much of the same thing.
> Yamaha's acoustic modelling also sounds better to my ears.