This list just gets better and better....
--- jonesalley <
jonesalley@...> wrote:
> You know, Ignacio, if you will read back through the
> group message archives, you will notice that I have
> never been anything but supportive and encouraging
> to you since your very first posting. I am also
> someone who is skilled with one language and often
> frustrated in my second language, and I have been
> sincere about my support of you. Now you debate me
> with points that you deconstruct yourself, and you
> seem to think that because you don't like the way
> that I have phrased things that gives you some sort
> of license to attack me personally when I have made
> it clear several times during this debate that my
> observations were directed at the process of
> composing and not at any one person.
>
> Regarding Mozart, you say that he created some "very
> good compositions from Mozart at that age" and in
> the next sentence you EXCUSE THEM for not being "The
> four seasons." So, by your own admission, they are
> NOT great compositions, they are just compositions
> that are not horrible. Faint praise, indeed.
>
> Then you challenge me "to write better tunes and
> show them to us all." Ignacio, if you are going to
> say stupid things, don't expect me to not point out
> their stupidity. If I go to the airport and see a
> plane with two wings on one side and none on the
> other, and the engines point backwards, am I
> required to BUILD A BETTER PLANE before I am
> permitted to recognize that there is something wrong
> with the plane I see? Once again, read my posts. I
> have never said that anyone's compositions aren't
> good because MINE ARE BETTER, I said they weren't
> good because of their own lack of merit. If you
> have a hard time understanding that difference, then
> either you are over your head intellectually, or you
> have less of a grasp of the English language than it
> seems.
>
> Next, you insult me directly, calling me "(you, wise
> over wise men)" and you then proceed to conflate
> being a COMPOSER OF MUSIC to being a LYRICIST. Are
> you really so ignorant as to believe that Morrison
> WROTE the Doors' music? I will try to put this in
> really simple words, so that even YOU can understand
> them. I am talking about the process of
> composition, of the interplay of melody, harmony,
> and rhythm. I am not talking about poetry. Are you
> really so ignorant of how the music industry works
> as to believe that the writing credits on albums
> actually mean anything? Yeah, Ashlee Simpson writes
> all of her own songs too. Come on, if you want to
> pretend to be intelligent, then you need to make
> sure that your salient points all fit together.
>
> The next thing that you do is SUPPORT my contention
> that 'Lucky Man' is NOT a innovative composition,
> just a nice tune that works for me and leaves me in
> a very good mood when I listen to it" after which
> you once again attack me personally, saying "but
> again i challenge you to write a better tune with
> your wonderful musical skills and try to do it
> better." Ignacio, you are not representing yourself
> as being terribly intelligent when you say things
> like that. Once again, I never put myself on a
> pedestal, as a matter of fact I deliberately
> refrained from saying anything about my own
> compositions, as what I write has no bearing on the
> topic at hand. You say "we are not talking about
> absolute classics, just good music." Ignacio, that
> proves my point. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TALKING
> ABOUT. You want to misinterpret my point and then
> argue against that misinterpretation, and then
> berate me for my "contemptuous tone" at your
> response. Well, I am contemptuous of your response,
> because you seem to be willfully and deliberately
> skirting around the issue. You tell me I am not the
> "owner of absolute truth." Did I ever say that I
> was? You say "there will be always good composers
> "from the beggining" and good composers after a long
> period of training." Who, exactly are these
> unidentified composers? Support your assertion. I
> have. You also bring the issue of "training" into
> the debate. Did I say anything about training? No,
> I said that people who have just started to write do
> not have the necessary grasp of the details of good
> writing to be able to write great music out of the
> gate. I've said it before, I'll say it again.
> RE-READ MY POSTS SLOWLY. After you understand what
> I actually said, I'll be happy to debate it with
> you, but as long as you are incorrectly
> characterizing the issue I brought up, you are
> arguing about apples when I am discussing oranges.
>
> You then continue with an unrelated analogy, saying
> that it is "just like there are people who
> understand complex maths at first explanation, and
> people who can't understand the concept after
> several explanations, do you got the idea?" Your
> analogy falls flat. If you want to use mathematics
> as an analogy, then your point should be that even
> people who have never studied math can create
> complex mathematical axioms with little or no
> previous experience at it. If you can show me
> people that can do that, then I will gladly agree
> that it is possible for an unpracticed, novice
> composer to write great music out of the gate. Just
> because somebody can understand the circle of fifths
> doesn't mean that they can instantly write effective
> modulations and turnarounds.
>
> Now we come to your music and your realm of
> experience. You yourself make the point that your
> friends "listen to Britney Spears and Alejandro
> Sanz, so they're not exactly ready for the music I
> compose." How pompous and arrogant of you. I think
> a lot of Britney's stuff is very catchy and well
> written. It is vapid and intellectually vacant, but
> it sure is catchy. Then you assert that you "have
> enough musical taste to know when I am proud of a
> composition and I consider its a good tune." Well,
> that lowers the bar for you, doesn't it? Britney's
> stuff is "good tunes." Once again, read my post. I
> am talking about composition, not writing "tunes."
> Tell me about your great compositions, Ignacio. You
> are the one jacking yourself off in public, telling
> us about your "good tunes." Where are they? I, who
> never had the nerve to assert that my music was
> great, have been challenged to prove that my music
> is great. You, mischaracterizing my points,
> aggrandize yourself and state that your music is
> "good tunes" but you provide no evidence to that
> point.
>
> Then, with the most audacity I have ever seen on
> this list, you assert that "pub owners are not fans,
> they must get a good band to play in their bussiness
> if they want people to come again and consume."
> With that idiotic sentence, you argue against your
> own logic. Pub owners don't care in the least
> whether a band is good or not. They only care about
> whether people come again and consume. They would
> hire a band that got onstage and farted songs all
> night long if it filled their club, and they would
> advertise that it was the best band they had ever
> heard.
>
> At every stage you have, by your own arguments,
> mischaracterizations, misinterpretations, and lack
> of logic, deflated your own point and supported
> mine.
>
> You finish by saying that I am "expounding." Well,
> so is everybody else on this list, why don't you
> take them to task for it? I see, you felt that your
> own little songs were being insulted when that was
> not the case. You say that I need not respond, that
> you are leaving the group because you don't want to
> "participate in" discussions like these.
>
> Then why did you?
>
> If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the
> kitchen, Ignacio. If you choose to leave, I really
> don't care and I won't feel any guilt about your
> decision. Good-bye.
>
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