Yamaha CS80

Hi guys

Some more analyses on the bump : I have noticed that the bump is very likely a product of the envelope itself . By measures it should be around 60ms (50ms clip +10ms decay) and its amplitude should be equal to the top sustain level for VCA and maximum cutoff point for the channel filters; it relates to both Filter EG and VCA EG.
By the way , I have the feel that the highest cutoff you can reach with the channel filters controls is NOT 25KHz but rather something around 12KHz. This results from an FFT ( wav file: 32bit/192KHz ; FFT:welch , 65K harmonics, 70dB amplitude range) of open LPF or HPF without resonance ; my guess is that can relate either with the EG and the master Brilliance control, the former to prevent an excessive excursion of the AL at high cutoffs and the latter to allow some further modulation space .
Anyone can enlighten me about these statements?
Please dont' leave me without an answer........ :-(
M

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I believe the amps are additive.....if you have an eg at max amplitude
and add velocity or aftertouch ...they increase over the top sustain
level.....As I remember,.if your eg is set all the way down
(shortest)the velocity seems to increase the initial level that the
envelope starts at ...thus the bump from the fastest attack/decay times
would be the full range of the fastest envelope with 0 sustain
superimposed on top the initial level set by velocity......

With respect to the filters.... is it the filters which stop at 12k or
is it the oscillators....
We would need to run some external sources into a m card to really see,
however I do recall hearing some really high pitched frequencys as I was
poking around with the trim pots ov which I collected no samples.....

Max Fazio wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> Some more analyses on the bump : I have noticed that the bump is very
> likely a product of the envelope itself . By measures it should be
> around 60ms (50ms clip +10ms decay) and its amplitude should be equal
> to the top sustain level for VCA and maximum cutoff point for the
> channel filters; it relates to both Filter EG and VCA EG.
> By the way , I have the feel that the highest cutoff you can reach
> with the channel filters controls is NOT 25KHz but rather something
> around 12KHz. This results from an FFT ( wav file: 32bit/192KHz ;
> FFT:welch , 65K harmonics, 70dB amplitude range) of open LPF or HPF
> without resonance ; my guess is that can relate either with the EG and
> the master Brilliance control, the former to prevent an excessive
> excursion of the AL at high cutoffs and the latter to allow some
> further modulation space .
> Anyone can enlighten me about these statements?
> Please dont' leave me without an answer........ :-(
> M
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>

Music sampler Unit Sampler

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> Service.
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thx Laurie
The closest example I can put next to this phenomenon is the "accent"
feature on the Roland TB303, this sets a fixed "bump" on filter and vca that
, like you say, superimposes on the actual envelope curve.
I think you're right about the addictive vcas....by graphics and keeping in
mind of a possible de-calibration of the Mboards I analysed the ORGAN1
preset...why this? Because it features a squared vca envelope ( A=0 D=0
S=high R=0), no velocity nor aftertouch.
Considering the decalibration and the exponential CV of the touch response I
could note that:
at vel=64 there is a bump of around 2-3dB
at vel=127 the bump jumps over 6dB
These values are the deltas between the bump peak and the actual sustain
level.

About filters...I don't think they are the VCOs to be limited, you can teach
me that the iG VCOs have a huge bandwidth , expecially focused on high
frequencies...anyway, to be more precise the lowest value I get is around 16
or 16.5 KHz ...

One other thing I've noted: the Sustain Level of VCA EG is *not* flat !!! By
a graphic response there is a very smooth curve lasting around 2seconds with
a peak of 3dB on the real sustain level...why is that?
Thx again. Other comments welcome!
M

----- Original Message -----
From: "laurie" <laurie@...>
To: <yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] "bump" from the envelopes- higest cutoff


> I believe the amps are additive.....if you have an eg at max amplitude
> and add velocity or aftertouch ...they increase over the top sustain
> level.....As I remember,.if your eg is set all the way down
> (shortest)the velocity seems to increase the initial level that the
> envelope starts at ...thus the bump from the fastest attack/decay times
> would be the full range of the fastest envelope with 0 sustain
> superimposed on top the initial level set by velocity......
>
> With respect to the filters.... is it the filters which stop at 12k or
> is it the oscillators....
> We would need to run some external sources into a m card to really see,
> however I do recall hearing some really high pitched frequencys as I was
> poking around with the trim pots ov which I collected no samples.....
>
> Max Fazio wrote:
>
> > Hi guys
> >
> > Some more analyses on the bump : I have noticed that the bump is very
> > likely a product of the envelope itself . By measures it should be
> > around 60ms (50ms clip +10ms decay) and its amplitude should be equal
> > to the top sustain level for VCA and maximum cutoff point for the
> > channel filters; it relates to both Filter EG and VCA EG.
> > By the way , I have the feel that the highest cutoff you can reach
> > with the channel filters controls is NOT 25KHz but rather something
> > around 12KHz. This results from an FFT ( wav file: 32bit/192KHz ;
> > FFT:welch , 65K harmonics, 70dB amplitude range) of open LPF or HPF
> > without resonance ; my guess is that can relate either with the EG and
> > the master Brilliance control, the former to prevent an excessive
> > excursion of the AL at high cutoffs and the latter to allow some
> > further modulation space .
> > Anyone can enlighten me about these statements?
> > Please dont' leave me without an answer........ :-(
> > M
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> >
> Music sampler Unit Sampler
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > + Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
> >
> > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hey Max
the +3db change from 64 to 127 makes perfect sense to me....
when voltage doubles(in audio this correlates to wattage)the change is
3dbs.....
let me guess if these pots are linear compared to voltages and 64 is 0db
then 32 should be -3db, 16 is -6db, 8 is -9db, 4 is -12db , 2 is -15 and
1 is -18...???

One other thing I've noted: the Sustain Level of VCA EG is *not* flat
!!! By
a graphic response there is a very smooth curve lasting around 2seconds
with
a peak of 3dB on the real sustain level...why is that?
You have eliminated all other possible culprits Max???? no velocity, no
AT no eg in the filters??? single note on one mix bank to eliminate
phasing ???no sub osc or pulsewidth modifiers??? very strange
indeed........
Max Fazio wrote:

> Thx Laurie
> The closest example I can put next to this phenomenon is the "accent"
> feature on the Roland TB303, this sets a fixed "bump" on filter and
> vca that
> , like you say, superimposes on the actual envelope curve.
> I think you're right about the addictive vcas....by graphics and
> keeping in
> mind of a possible de-calibration of the Mboards I analysed the ORGAN1
>
> preset...why this? Because it features a squared vca envelope ( A=0
> D=0
> S=high R=0), no velocity nor aftertouch.
> Considering the decalibration and the exponential CV of the touch
> response I
> could note that:
> at vel=64 there is a bump of around 2-3dB
> at vel=127 the bump jumps over 6dB
> These values are the deltas between the bump peak and the actual
> sustain
> level.
>
> About filters...I don't think they are the VCOs to be limited, you can
> teach
> me that the iG VCOs have a huge bandwidth , expecially focused on high
>
> frequencies...anyway, to be more precise the lowest value I get is
> around 16
> or 16.5 KHz ...
>
> One other thing I've noted: the Sustain Level of VCA EG is *not* flat
> !!! By
> a graphic response there is a very smooth curve lasting around
> 2seconds with
> a peak of 3dB on the real sustain level...why is that?
> Thx again. Other comments welcome!
> M
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "laurie" <laurie@...>
> To: <yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 8:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] "bump" from the envelopes- higest cutoff
>
>
> > I believe the amps are additive.....if you have an eg at max
> amplitude
> > and add velocity or aftertouch ...they increase over the top sustain
>
> > level.....As I remember,.if your eg is set all the way down
> > (shortest)the velocity seems to increase the initial level that the
> > envelope starts at ...thus the bump from the fastest attack/decay
> times
> > would be the full range of the fastest envelope with 0 sustain
> > superimposed on top the initial level set by velocity......
> >
> > With respect to the filters.... is it the filters which stop at 12k
> or
> > is it the oscillators....
> > We would need to run some external sources into a m card to really
> see,
> > however I do recall hearing some really high pitched frequencys as I
> was
> > poking around with the trim pots ov which I collected no
> samples.....
> >
> > Max Fazio wrote:
> >
> > > Hi guys
> > >
> > > Some more analyses on the bump : I have noticed that the bump is
> very
> > > likely a product of the envelope itself . By measures it should be
>
> > > around 60ms (50ms clip +10ms decay) and its amplitude should be
> equal
> > > to the top sustain level for VCA and maximum cutoff point for the
>
> > > channel filters; it relates to both Filter EG and VCA EG.
> > > By the way , I have the feel that the highest cutoff you can reach
>
> > > with the channel filters controls is NOT 25KHz but rather
> something
> > > around 12KHz. This results from an FFT ( wav file: 32bit/192KHz ;
> > > FFT:welch , 65K harmonics, 70dB amplitude range) of open LPF or
> HPF
> > > without resonance ; my guess is that can relate either with the EG
> and
> > > the master Brilliance control, the former to prevent an excessive
> > > excursion of the AL at high cutoffs and the latter to allow some
> > > further modulation space .
> > > Anyone can enlighten me about these statements?
> > > Please dont' leave me without an answer........ :-(
> > > M
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > >
> > Music sampler Unit Sampler
> >
> > >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > + Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
> > >
> > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > Service.
> > >
> > >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>

Music sampler Unit Sampler

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> + Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
>
> + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Laurie
What I've noticed: first keep in mind of a possible decalibration of VCAs :
the most "flat" responding preset among all the 22 is the ORGAN1 : Tommy
(Priakos) applied velocity values and sent them through MIDI ; that patch
has no velocity nor aftertouch, and again between velocity=20(no accent) and
vel= 64 there is an "accent" delta that's around 3dB higher ; at vel= 127
there is an accent of about 5-6dB higher than the accent at vel=64; if you
set a panel patch or use some presets such as BASS you can notice that the
delta between 64 and 127 is around 3dB with proportional increase of volume
related to velocity;

About this "non flat" portion of Sustain level : I have to rectify my
statement: it's a 2dB peak, not 3dB.
I've noticed it with the ORGAN1 patch: trusting the manual the patch
features no influence of the Filter EG, no Attack, no Decay, Sustain level
at full , no release, no velocity and no aftertouch at all; this non flat
behaviour is constant and proportional to the amplitude ; you can note this
behaviour if you listen carefully to other similar patches with full Sustain
level such as STRINGS2 , ORGAN2, FUNKY1,FLUTE.
M

----- Original Message -----
From: "laurie" <laurie@...>
To: <yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] "bump" from the envelopes- higest cutoff


> Hey Max
> the +3db change from 64 to 127 makes perfect sense to me....
> when voltage doubles(in audio this correlates to wattage)the change is
> 3dbs.....
> let me guess if these pots are linear compared to voltages and 64 is 0db
> then 32 should be -3db, 16 is -6db, 8 is -9db, 4 is -12db , 2 is -15 and
> 1 is -18...???
>
> One other thing I've noted: the Sustain Level of VCA EG is *not* flat
> !!! By
> a graphic response there is a very smooth curve lasting around 2seconds
> with
> a peak of 3dB on the real sustain level...why is that?
> You have eliminated all other possible culprits Max???? no velocity, no
> AT no eg in the filters??? single note on one mix bank to eliminate
> phasing ???no sub osc or pulsewidth modifiers??? very strange
> indeed........
> Max Fazio wrote:
>
> > Thx Laurie
> > The closest example I can put next to this phenomenon is the "accent"
> > feature on the Roland TB303, this sets a fixed "bump" on filter and
> > vca that
> > , like you say, superimposes on the actual envelope curve.
> > I think you're right about the addictive vcas....by graphics and
> > keeping in
> > mind of a possible de-calibration of the Mboards I analysed the ORGAN1
> >
> > preset...why this? Because it features a squared vca envelope ( A=0
> > D=0
> > S=high R=0), no velocity nor aftertouch.
> > Considering the decalibration and the exponential CV of the touch
> > response I
> > could note that:
> > at vel=64 there is a bump of around 2-3dB
> > at vel=127 the bump jumps over 6dB
> > These values are the deltas between the bump peak and the actual
> > sustain
> > level.
> >
> > About filters...I don't think they are the VCOs to be limited, you can
> > teach
> > me that the iG VCOs have a huge bandwidth , expecially focused on high
> >
> > frequencies...anyway, to be more precise the lowest value I get is
> > around 16
> > or 16.5 KHz ...
> >
> > One other thing I've noted: the Sustain Level of VCA EG is *not* flat
> > !!! By
> > a graphic response there is a very smooth curve lasting around
> > 2seconds with
> > a peak of 3dB on the real sustain level...why is that?
> > Thx again. Other comments welcome!
> > M
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "laurie" <laurie@...>
> > To: <yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 8:06 PM
> > Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] "bump" from the envelopes- higest cutoff
> >
> >
> > > I believe the amps are additive.....if you have an eg at max
> > amplitude
> > > and add velocity or aftertouch ...they increase over the top sustain
> >
> > > level.....As I remember,.if your eg is set all the way down
> > > (shortest)the velocity seems to increase the initial level that the
> > > envelope starts at ...thus the bump from the fastest attack/decay
> > times
> > > would be the full range of the fastest envelope with 0 sustain
> > > superimposed on top the initial level set by velocity......
> > >
> > > With respect to the filters.... is it the filters which stop at 12k
> > or
> > > is it the oscillators....
> > > We would need to run some external sources into a m card to really
> > see,
> > > however I do recall hearing some really high pitched frequencys as I
> > was
> > > poking around with the trim pots ov which I collected no
> > samples.....
> > >
> > > Max Fazio wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi guys
> > > >
> > > > Some more analyses on the bump : I have noticed that the bump is
> > very
> > > > likely a product of the envelope itself . By measures it should be
> >
> > > > around 60ms (50ms clip +10ms decay) and its amplitude should be
> > equal
> > > > to the top sustain level for VCA and maximum cutoff point for the
> >
> > > > channel filters; it relates to both Filter EG and VCA EG.
> > > > By the way , I have the feel that the highest cutoff you can reach
> >
> > > > with the channel filters controls is NOT 25KHz but rather
> > something
> > > > around 12KHz. This results from an FFT ( wav file: 32bit/192KHz ;
> > > > FFT:welch , 65K harmonics, 70dB amplitude range) of open LPF or
> > HPF
> > > > without resonance ; my guess is that can relate either with the EG
> > and
> > > > the master Brilliance control, the former to prevent an excessive
> > > > excursion of the AL at high cutoffs and the latter to allow some
> > > > further modulation space .
> > > > Anyone can enlighten me about these statements?
> > > > Please dont' leave me without an answer........ :-(
> > > > M
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > >
> > > Music sampler Unit Sampler
> > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > + Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
> > > >
> > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > > Service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> >
> Music sampler Unit Sampler
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > + Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
> >
> > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>