Yamaha CS80

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----- Original Message -----
From: laurie
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?


Max, can you define sensible loss for me...how many db per octave

Max Fazio wrote:

> Hi all , want to solve a doubt
> I made some FFT analyses on the pure VCO waves and I discovered that,
> without any filter influencing the sound, there is a sensible loss in
> Hi and mid-hi harmonics below 100Hz which is proportional to the
> pitch, the lower the pitch the lesser harmonix. I'd like to know why
> is that and what this can depend on...
> Thx for your reply
> M
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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> By ear, around 6db/Oct.
> Test by yourself, select one channel, one wave,LPF opened, HPF closed , no
> resonance , master brilliance and resonance to 0, scaling to 0; play a
> whatever note and sweep down with ribbon caring to pay attention when the
> pitch goes under 100Hz , it seems the harmonic beyond 2KHz are "muted" as if
> there was a lowpass. The tests that Tim made feature a single low C
> transposed 16' to 2'.
> Max
> M
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: laurie
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?
>
>
> Max, can you define sensible loss for me...how many db per octave
>
> Max Fazio wrote:
>
> > Hi all , want to solve a doubt
> > I made some FFT analyses on the pure VCO waves and I discovered that,
> > without any filter influencing the sound, there is a sensible loss in
> > Hi and mid-hi harmonics below 100Hz which is proportional to the
> > pitch, the lower the pitch the lesser harmonix. I'd like to know why
> > is that and what this can depend on...
> > Thx for your reply
> > M
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> >
> Music sampler Unit Synthesizer
>
> Sampler
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> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > + Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
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> > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > Service.
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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----- Original Message -----
From: jhaible@...
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com ; Max Fazio
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?


There's quite some filtering going on in the volume pedal circuit.

JH.


> By ear, around 6db/Oct.
> Test by yourself, select one channel, one wave,LPF opened, HPF closed , no
> resonance , master brilliance and resonance to 0, scaling to 0; play a
> whatever note and sweep down with ribbon caring to pay attention when the
> pitch goes under 100Hz , it seems the harmonic beyond 2KHz are "muted" as if
> there was a lowpass. The tests that Tim made feature a single low C
> transposed 16' to 2'.
> Max
> M
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: laurie
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?
>
>
> Max, can you define sensible loss for me...how many db per octave
>
> Max Fazio wrote:
>
> > Hi all , want to solve a doubt
> > I made some FFT analyses on the pure VCO waves and I discovered that,
> > without any filter influencing the sound, there is a sensible loss in
> > Hi and mid-hi harmonics below 100Hz which is proportional to the
> > pitch, the lower the pitch the lesser harmonix. I'd like to know why
> > is that and what this can depend on...
> > Thx for your reply
> > M
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> >
> Music sampler Unit Synthesizer
>
> Sampler
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > + Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
> >
> > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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-------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: jhaible@...
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com ; Max Fazio
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?


There's quite some filtering going on in the volume pedal circuit.

JH.


> By ear, around 6db/Oct.
> Test by yourself, select one channel, one wave,LPF opened, HPF closed , no
> resonance , master brilliance and resonance to 0, scaling to 0; play a
> whatever note and sweep down with ribbon caring to pay attention when the
> pitch goes under 100Hz , it seems the harmonic beyond 2KHz are "muted" as if
> there was a lowpass. The tests that Tim made feature a single low C
> transposed 16' to 2'.
> Max
> M
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: laurie
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?
>
>
> Max, can you define sensible loss for me...how many db per octave
>
> Max Fazio wrote:
>
> > Hi all , want to solve a doubt
> > I made some FFT analyses on the pure VCO waves and I discovered that,
> > without any filter influencing the sound, there is a sensible loss in
> > Hi and mid-hi harmonics below 100Hz which is proportional to the
> > pitch, the lower the pitch the lesser harmonix. I'd like to know why
> > is that and what this can depend on...
> > Thx for your reply
> > M
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> >
> Music sampler Unit Synthesizer
>
> Sampler
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > + Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
> >
> > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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-------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: JH.
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?



> You mean that the wah pedal circuit alone influences the pure wave because
of some filtering or are the files affected by the wah?

Not the wahwah. The volume pedal.

JH.



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----- Original Message -----
From: laurie
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?


You do realise that harmonic content is pitched down with the
fundemental.....such as the odd harmonics of a square wave ... they
remain true to the fundemental... so as you bend the fundemental down,
so do you bent the harmonic content..... on analog....harmonics aren't
infinite.... 3-4k is .5 foot compared to a 16 foot 100hz fundemental
and usually as you get further away from the Fundemental the harmonic
overtones fade regardless of filters.....3200hz is 5 octaves above 100hz
......2560hz is 5 octaves above 80hz ....1920hz is 5 octaves above 60
hz...... I think this should explain some of the loss above 3k you are
experiencing......

Max Fazio wrote:

> Hi Juergen and all.
>
> >Not the wahwah. The volume pedal.
>
>
> Maybe I'm dull about this: you say that the exp circuit influences
> this harmonic loss: I must say that the file I got comes from a single
> note transposed with footage levers ; if the exp circuit was armed I
> should have been listening a filtering no matter of the footage but
> there I hear this harmonic loss under a given frequency, that is
> 100Hz.
> This effect I bet that could be hearable sweeping the pitch down with
> the ribbon.
> The exp (volume) circuit acts as a loudness circuit as you correctly
> told me but there I stop understanding because I wonder then:
>
> 1.If exp adds loudness then a louder component of low harmonix should
> be added but the FFT of each tranposed part highlights a *decrease of
> the amplitude in harmonix beyond 3 or 4 KHz* rather than an increase
> in low harmonix.
>
> 2.If the exp circuit is not enabled the sound bypasses the circuit to
> OE-output boards. So how could it be? I'm biased to say it should
> rather be caused by the wah ( but I'm not convinced about this too )
>
> Please forgive me for not being much responsive but I 'd be happy to
> receive from you who knows the CS polyphonics way more than me there
> who can, an extended explaination because I didn't find this behaviour
> on none of the synths out there.
> MAx
> Thanks for another reply
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: JH.
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?
>
>
>
> > You mean that the wah pedal circuit alone influences the pure wave
> because
> of some filtering or are the files affected by the wah?
>
> Not the wahwah. The volume pedal.
>
> JH.
>
>
>
> -
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> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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> a.. Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
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> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
> -
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
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> SPONSORED LINKS
>
Music sampler Unit Synthesizer

Sampler

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> + Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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----- Original Message -----
From: Max Fazio
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?


Hi Laurie and all, let's see if I got it ;-)

What I told about high frequencies was a try to understand better what Juergen said about his view of kind of a "bug" inside the cs80, that is some of the processed signal from EXP circuitry went into the bypassed signal ; we know that EXP adds loudness to the signal but I speculate this is not the case because ( I come back to the beginning ) because the signal should have been enhanced all over the place and there from the fft only the harmonic loss is evident.
You say also

>as you bend the fundemental down,
so do you bent the harmonic content

You mean that a low pitch fundamental determines low pitch harmonics? Of course ,Laurie, the fact is that the waveform changes itself :in the case of squares if you put one shot next to the other of 16' to 2' pitched notes you will see that the lower pitched wave has a peak only and a smoothed body resembling more to a blend of a sawtooth and a sine; this means that a narrow numbers of harmonics remained and the fundamental component is stronger, at 8' for example, the wave looks similar to a triangle with peaks at its vertices and so on to resemble a pretty regular square. Why is that I wonder....I ask Juergen to be larger in his explaination.
All the best
Max

----- Original Message -----
From: laurie
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?


You do realise that harmonic content is pitched down with the
fundemental.....such as the odd harmonics of a square wave ... they
remain true to the fundemental... so as you bend the fundemental down,
so do you bent the harmonic content..... on analog....harmonics aren't
infinite.... 3-4k is .5 foot compared to a 16 foot 100hz fundemental
and usually as you get further away from the Fundemental the harmonic
overtones fade regardless of filters.....3200hz is 5 octaves above 100hz
......2560hz is 5 octaves above 80hz ....1920hz is 5 octaves above 60
hz...... I think this should explain some of the loss above 3k you are
experiencing......

Max Fazio wrote:

> Hi Juergen and all.
>
> >Not the wahwah. The volume pedal.
>
>
> Maybe I'm dull about this: you say that the exp circuit influences
> this harmonic loss: I must say that the file I got comes from a single
> note transposed with footage levers ; if the exp circuit was armed I
> should have been listening a filtering no matter of the footage but
> there I hear this harmonic loss under a given frequency, that is
> 100Hz.
> This effect I bet that could be hearable sweeping the pitch down with
> the ribbon.
> The exp (volume) circuit acts as a loudness circuit as you correctly
> told me but there I stop understanding because I wonder then:
>
> 1.If exp adds loudness then a louder component of low harmonix should
> be added but the FFT of each tranposed part highlights a *decrease of
> the amplitude in harmonix beyond 3 or 4 KHz* rather than an increase
> in low harmonix.
>
> 2.If the exp circuit is not enabled the sound bypasses the circuit to
> OE-output boards. So how could it be? I'm biased to say it should
> rather be caused by the wah ( but I'm not convinced about this too )
>
> Please forgive me for not being much responsive but I 'd be happy to
> receive from you who knows the CS polyphonics way more than me there
> who can, an extended explaination because I didn't find this behaviour
> on none of the synths out there.
> MAx
> Thanks for another reply
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: JH.
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?
>
>
>
> > You mean that the wah pedal circuit alone influences the pure wave
> because
> of some filtering or are the files affected by the wah?
>
> Not the wahwah. The volume pedal.
>
> JH.
>
>
>
> -
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
> -
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
Music sampler Unit Synthesizer

Sampler

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> + Visit your group "yamahacs80" on the web.
>
> + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
> + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Sampler


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> know that EXP adds loudness to the signal but I speculate this is not the
> case because ( I come back to the beginning ) because the signal should have
> been enhanced all over the place

----- Original Message -----
From: <jhaible@...>
To: <yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com>; "Max Fazio" <faxiomas@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] harmnic loss - how is possible ?


> > What I told about high frequencies was a try to understand better what
> > Juergen said about his view of kind of a "bug" inside the cs80, that is
some
> > of the processed signal from EXP circuitry went into the bypassed signal
>
> No, no, no. I was talking about the Volume pedal function, built around
> PH1 and PH2. That's not a bug, or leakage of anything bypassed, that's a
> straight, intentional implementation of a "Loudness" volume control.
>
>
> > know that EXP adds loudness to the signal but I speculate this is not
the
> > case because ( I come back to the beginning ) because the signal should
have
> > been enhanced all over the place
>
> I don't know if the Loudness function explains the effect you are looking
for.
> I just gave a hint to include this in your search.
> But in general, when your harmonic content changes with pitch, you *do*
look
> for a fixed filter (as opposed to a tracking filter), and the Loudness
filter
> network falls in that category.
>
> JH.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> debitel.net Webmail