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CS-80 ring modulator

CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-21 by oasysfan2

I've been discussing the sound of the CS-80 ring modulator on the
CS-80V group, and I wanted to ask for your insight here. Listening to
Richard Lawson's demo,

http://www.rlmusic.co.uk/mals_site/mp3s/cs80_700.mp3

it sounds like the CS-80 RM is mono. i.e. the ring modulation between
:09 and 0:19 doesn't pan back and forth. What's confusing is I found
another CS-80 RM example in which the RM sound definitely moves back
and forth in the stereo field.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3

What am I hearing? Is it because chorus is on (not sure if it is),
and the RM is subject to the stereo chorus? Thanks for any help in
better understanding the original.

Re: [yamahacs80] CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-21 by Max Fazio

Hi bg
What I can say is that RM in CS-80 IS mono : well the fact is the signal path from VCO to VCA was mono on CS-80, therefore even the ring was mono, it is surely like this because I have a waveform analysis of a modulated signal somewhere and it displays as mono ( well, double mono ) . I heard back what I called a pan modulation on CS-80V 1.5 ( an AM phased 180 degrees between left and right channel ) , but I suppose this is a *bug* likely because this doesn't happen all the time into my synth; I explained this thing to Xavier but I seem not to understand very well what he said...here's his speech :
 
(quote)
 
The problem with the Multimode is the Pan possibility AND the
enable/desable Rm/EFX for each voice.
I can't do a correct routing with only one ringMod ( the dry keeping the
pan setting). I try with the last version, but I encoured lot of problem
when adding chorus, tremolo and delay !

But you're right, the problem is that there are two independants
RingMods, in  place of a double mono one with the same sinewave modulator.

I can do it without to much changing my code. It's the same for reducing
the sine wave
 
(end quote)
 
Xavier seems to say there is a double ringmodulator controlled by the same controls ...this may be at the root of an occasional phasing between the two modulations ( one for each channel ).My only fear is that if Xavier tries to kick a stereo signal into a mono ringmodulator he must end forcing it into one single input ( the "carrier" one which will be mixed with the modulator's sine VCO ) having a phased signal as a result and getting back that awful phasing at low MOD rates....
Cheers
Max
----- Original Message -----
From: oasysfan2
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:06 PM
Subject: [yamahacs80] CS-80 ring modulator

I've been discussing the sound of the CS-80 ring modulator on the
CS-80V group, and I wanted to ask for your insight here.  Listening to
Richard Lawson's demo,

http://www.rlmusic.co.uk/mals_site/mp3s/cs80_700.mp3

it sounds like the CS-80 RM is mono.  i.e. the ring modulation between
:09 and 0:19 doesn't pan back and forth.  What's confusing is I found
another CS-80 RM example in which the RM sound definitely moves back
and forth in the stereo field.

http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3

What am I hearing?  Is it because chorus is on (not sure if it is),
and the RM is subject to the stereo chorus?  Thanks for any help in
better understanding the original.


Re: [yamahacs80] CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-21 by David Rogoff

oasysfan2 wrote:

>I've been discussing the sound of the CS-80 ring modulator on the
>CS-80V group, and I wanted to ask for your insight here. Listening to
>Richard Lawson's demo,
>
>http://www.rlmusic.co.uk/mals_site/mp3s/cs80_700.mp3
>
>it sounds like the CS-80 RM is mono. i.e. the ring modulation between
>:09 and 0:19 doesn't pan back and forth. What's confusing is I found
>another CS-80 RM example in which the RM sound definitely moves back
>and forth in the stereo field.
>
>http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3
>
>What am I hearing? Is it because chorus is on (not sure if it is),
>and the RM is subject to the stereo chorus? Thanks for any help in
>better understanding the original.
>
>
The ring-mod is mono. In fact, the whole CS-80 is mono until it gets to
the chorus. Here's the detailed block diagram:
http://www.synthfool.com/schematics/cs80_2.jpg. You can see the the
signal becomes stereo on the OE2 board, which is the guts of the
chorus/tremelo.

David

Re: [yamahacs80] CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-21 by Max Fazio

Hi David
I seemed to understand that according to Crow studies about CS-80 the signal is strangely turned to stereo then re-converted to mono
 
 
The signal then gets buffered and sent to the chorusing/tremolo 'OE2' circuit board where the mono signal is turned into a stereo effect when the chorus or tremolo is turned on. Note that if the effects are off, the output signals from the OE2 board are the same. Tracing the audio signal through the OE2 board showed that things were still fine. These signals then proceed to the OE1 board for blending: 4 VCAs are used to 'move' the audio around the stereo image on the OE2 board, and these 4 VCA outputs are mixed back into 2 signals on the OE1 board. The signals then return to the PRA board for final line-level amplification. The output signals from the line amp circuit section were incorrect: the RIGHT signal was fine, but the LEFT signal was very faint. The problem must be in the amplifier circuit for the LEFT channel on the PRA board, then (end quote)
 
Maybe I'm wrong !
BTW David , being you able to make A/B comparisons , what do you think  about ringmodulator in CS-80V 1.5?
Max
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] CS-80 ring modulator

oasysfan2 wrote:

>I've been discussing the sound of the CS-80 ring modulator on the
>CS-80V group, and I wanted to ask for your insight here.  Listening to
>Richard Lawson's demo,
>
>http://www.rlmusic.co.uk/mals_site/mp3s/cs80_700.mp3
>
>it sounds like the CS-80 RM is mono.  i.e. the ring modulation between
>:09 and 0:19 doesn't pan back and forth.  What's confusing is I found
>another CS-80 RM example in which the RM sound definitely moves back
>and forth in the stereo field.
>
>http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3
>
>What am I hearing?  Is it because chorus is on (not sure if it is),
>and the RM is subject to the stereo chorus?  Thanks for any help in
>better understanding the original.
> 
>
The ring-mod is mono.  In fact, the whole CS-80 is mono until it gets to
the chorus.  Here's the detailed block diagram:
http://www.synthfool.com/schematics/cs80_2.jpg.   You can see the the
signal becomes stereo on the OE2 board, which is the guts of the
chorus/tremelo.

David

Re: CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-22 by oasysfan2

> >http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3
> >
> >What am I hearing? Is it because chorus is on (not sure if it is),
> >and the RM is subject to the stereo chorus? Thanks for any help in
> >better understanding the original.
> >
> >
> The ring-mod is mono. In fact, the whole CS-80 is mono until it
gets to
> the chorus. Here's the detailed block diagram:
> http://www.synthfool.com/schematics/cs80_2.jpg. You can see the
the
> signal becomes stereo on the OE2 board, which is the guts of the
> chorus/tremelo.
>
> David

Thanks for the link, David. So the stereo animation in the above
example is due to Chorus or Tremolo being on. Correct? Also, it's
hard to tell from this short example, and maybe my ears are playing
tricks on me, but it almost sounds like the RM stereo movement
corresponds to the RM speed--not just the fixed Chorus/Trem speed
setting. I hope you know what trying to say.

Re: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-22 by Max Fazio

yes bg, the panning into the ringmodulator isn't tied to its speed, as i said there could be a bug related to the modeling of the ringmodulator itself...
Max
----- Original Message -----
From: oasysfan2
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 3:15 PM
Subject: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator

> >http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3
> >
> >What am I hearing?  Is it because chorus is on (not sure if it is),
> >and the RM is subject to the stereo chorus?  Thanks for any help in
> >better understanding the original.
> > 
> >
> The ring-mod is mono.  In fact, the whole CS-80 is mono until it
gets to
> the chorus.  Here's the detailed block diagram:
> http://www.synthfool.com/schematics/cs80_2.jpg.   You can see the
the
> signal becomes stereo on the OE2 board, which is the guts of the
> chorus/tremelo.
>
>  David

Thanks for the link, David.  So the stereo animation in the above
example is due to Chorus or Tremolo being on.  Correct?  Also, it's
hard to tell from this short example, and maybe my ears are playing
tricks on me, but it almost sounds like the RM stereo movement
corresponds to the RM speed--not just the fixed Chorus/Trem speed
setting.  I hope you know what trying to say.


Re: CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-22 by oasysfan2

Max, sorry if I misunderstand your post, but the RM audio example I'm
asking about is from an actual CS-80:
http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Max Fazio" <faxiomas@v...> wrote:
> yes bg, the panning into the ringmodulator isn't tied to its speed,
as i said there could be a bug related to the modeling of the
ringmodulator itself...
> Max
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: oasysfan2
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 3:15 PM
> Subject: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator
>
>
> > >http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3
> > >
> > >What am I hearing? Is it because chorus is on (not sure if it is),
> > >and the RM is subject to the stereo chorus? Thanks for any help in
> > >better understanding the original.
> > >
> > >
> > The ring-mod is mono. In fact, the whole CS-80 is mono until it
> gets to
> > the chorus. Here's the detailed block diagram:
> > http://www.synthfool.com/schematics/cs80_2.jpg. You can see the
> the
> > signal becomes stereo on the OE2 board, which is the guts of the
> > chorus/tremelo.
> >
> > David
>
> Thanks for the link, David. So the stereo animation in the above
> example is due to Chorus or Tremolo being on. Correct? Also, it's
> hard to tell from this short example, and maybe my ears are playing
> tricks on me, but it almost sounds like the RM stereo movement
> corresponds to the RM speed--not just the fixed Chorus/Trem speed
> setting. I hope you know what trying to say.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-22 by Max Fazio

I knew that file already, it could be maybe that some external effects may be used to process the raw signal.
To make you sure about the CS ringmod check also
 
 
it comes from a CS-50 but the ring is the same
M
----- Original Message -----
From: oasysfan2
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 4:08 PM
Subject: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator

Max, sorry if I misunderstand your post, but the RM audio example I'm
asking about is from an actual CS-80:
http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Max Fazio" <faxiomas@v...> wrote:
> yes bg, the panning into the ringmodulator isn't tied to its speed,
as i said there could be a bug related to the modeling of the
ringmodulator itself...
> Max
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: oasysfan2
>   To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 3:15 PM
>   Subject: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator
>
>
>   > >http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3
>   > >
>   > >What am I hearing?  Is it because chorus is on (not sure if it is),
>   > >and the RM is subject to the stereo chorus?  Thanks for any help in
>   > >better understanding the original.
>   > > 
>   > >
>   > The ring-mod is mono.  In fact, the whole CS-80 is mono until it
>   gets to
>   > the chorus.  Here's the detailed block diagram:
>   > http://www.synthfool.com/schematics/cs80_2.jpg.   You can see the
>   the
>   > signal becomes stereo on the OE2 board, which is the guts of the
>   > chorus/tremelo.
>   >
>   >  David
>
>   Thanks for the link, David.  So the stereo animation in the above
>   example is due to Chorus or Tremolo being on.  Correct?  Also, it's
>   hard to tell from this short example, and maybe my ears are playing
>   tricks on me, but it almost sounds like the RM stereo movement
>   corresponds to the RM speed--not just the fixed Chorus/Trem speed
>   setting.  I hope you know what trying to say.
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/yamahacs80/
>      
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>      
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.


Re: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-22 by Max Fazio

Ok , realising you're @ YCS-80 group...anyway my reply can be suitable!
M
----- Original Message -----
From: oasysfan2
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 4:08 PM
Subject: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator

Max, sorry if I misunderstand your post, but the RM audio example I'm
asking about is from an actual CS-80:
http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Max Fazio" <faxiomas@v...> wrote:
> yes bg, the panning into the ringmodulator isn't tied to its speed,
as i said there could be a bug related to the modeling of the
ringmodulator itself...
> Max
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: oasysfan2
>   To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 3:15 PM
>   Subject: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator
>
>
>   > >http://personal.inet.fi/private/matador/cs-80_user_ringmod.mp3
>   > >
>   > >What am I hearing?  Is it because chorus is on (not sure if it is),
>   > >and the RM is subject to the stereo chorus?  Thanks for any help in
>   > >better understanding the original.
>   > > 
>   > >
>   > The ring-mod is mono.  In fact, the whole CS-80 is mono until it
>   gets to
>   > the chorus.  Here's the detailed block diagram:
>   > http://www.synthfool.com/schematics/cs80_2.jpg.   You can see the
>   the
>   > signal becomes stereo on the OE2 board, which is the guts of the
>   > chorus/tremelo.
>   >
>   >  David
>
>   Thanks for the link, David.  So the stereo animation in the above
>   example is due to Chorus or Tremolo being on.  Correct?  Also, it's
>   hard to tell from this short example, and maybe my ears are playing
>   tricks on me, but it almost sounds like the RM stereo movement
>   corresponds to the RM speed--not just the fixed Chorus/Trem speed
>   setting.  I hope you know what trying to say.
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/yamahacs80/
>      
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     yamahacs80-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>      
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.


Re: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-23 by BlchrR@aol.com

HI,

Whıch PCB ıs the Rıng mod board?
I strıpped out a Cs60, for parts for my Cs80, but am thınkıng ıt would be cool to rack up the rıng mod?

What would ı need to do? Any thoughts?

TIA.

Best,
Rob.

Re: [yamahacs80] Re: CS-80 ring modulator

2005-06-23 by David Rogoff

BlchrR@... wrote:

>HI,
>
>Whıch PCB ıs the Rıng mod board?
>I strıpped out a Cs60, for parts for my Cs80, but am thınkıng ıt would be cool to rack up the rıng mod?
>
>What would ı need to do? Any thoughts?
>
>
>
PRA is the actual ring modular and associated envelope generator. Look
at the block diagrams and schematics here:

http://www.synthfool.com/schematics/cs80_1.jpg
http://www.synthfool.com/schematics/cs80_2.jpg

If you can read a schematic, it's pretty obvious.

David