Yamaha CS80

Hi all.

I've been working on a CS80 for a bit now and finally have it all
functioning to some degree. I'm going through the full
tuning/calibration procedure now
(http://therogoffs.com/cs80/CS80%20Adjustment%20Procedures%20and%20updates.PDF)

and am having difficulty with the envelope times. I've never tried this
before. On all units I've worked on, I've only needed to do the power
supply and the usual M-card tuning.

However, this beast had some of its M-cards replaced from a very giving
CS-60 and the EG times, filter cutoffs, and levels are really whacked
out from board to board. So, I'm trying to do the VCF Attack time on
page 9 and VCA Attack time on page 15. I came up with a nice trigger
source: they specify a 3Hz square wave of +/-10v. I found that tapping
the output of the Sub-Oscillator square wave before its output resistor
divider makes a great trigger. I just ran this, through a 1K resistor,
to one input of my 'scope and then to the TR input of the M-card. I
trigger on this channel and then connect the specified EG testpoint to
the other input of the 'scope.

This sort-of works, at least for the calibration of the short (4ms)
time. Triggering and observing signals this slow on an old, analog
oscilloscope is a real pain. Again, I got it somewhat stable for the
4ms measurement. However, for the 125ms measurement, I don't have a
prayer. With the low repeat rate and long time measurement, the display
is too erratic to get any useful measurements. At work I have access to
nice digital HP/Agilent 'scopes that can do this in their sleep, but I
don't really want to bring the CS80 to work! What did Yamaha intend to
be used for this measurement back in 1976? I guess an old analog
storage 'scope would have worked, but those were pretty rare.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any tips from folks who have (successfully) tried
this!

By the way, since I've had to pull the M-cards out to do the full
calibration, for tuning I've been able to grab the sine wave right off
the wave shape converter chip at pad CP1. I run this into one input of
my 'scope and my iPhone, running Cleartune (in pitch-pipe mode with sine
wave) into the other 'scope input and set it to X-Y mode. Beautiful
Lissajous patterns that make it a snap to tune! Of course, since the
cards are out, the temperature isn't quite right and I'll have to do a
final tweak when it's all put back together. For that I'll use the
excellent iStrobesoft strobe tuner app from Peterson. It's $10, but well
worth it, especially since a hardware strobe tuner from Peterson start
at $100 and go up to $800!

Thanks again,

David

wish i could help. i tried to do some very minute EG calibrations by ear once on my 80. wasnt working. (luckily got it close enough to be not noticable). best of luck!

--- On Tue, 2/1/11, David Rogoff <david@...> wrote:

From: David Rogoff <david@...>
Subject: [yamahacs80] Need help calibrating envelope generators on CS80!
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011, 12:06 AM


























Hi all.



I've been working on a CS80 for a bit now and finally have it all

functioning to some degree. I'm going through the full

tuning/calibration procedure now

(http://therogoffs.com/cs80/CS80%20Adjustment%20Procedures%20and%20updates.PDF)



and am having difficulty with the envelope times. I've never tried this

before. On all units I've worked on, I've only needed to do the power

supply and the usual M-card tuning.



However, this beast had some of its M-cards replaced from a very giving

CS-60 and the EG times, filter cutoffs, and levels are really whacked

out from board to board. So, I'm trying to do the VCF Attack time on

page 9 and VCA Attack time on page 15. I came up with a nice trigger

source: they specify a 3Hz square wave of +/-10v. I found that tapping

the output of the Sub-Oscillator square wave before its output resistor

divider makes a great trigger. I just ran this, through a 1K resistor,

to one input of my 'scope and then to the TR input of the M-card. I

trigger on this channel and then connect the specified EG testpoint to

the other input of the 'scope.



This sort-of works, at least for the calibration of the short (4ms)

time. Triggering and observing signals this slow on an old, analog

oscilloscope is a real pain. Again, I got it somewhat stable for the

4ms measurement. However, for the 125ms measurement, I don't have a

prayer. With the low repeat rate and long time measurement, the display

is too erratic to get any useful measurements. At work I have access to

nice digital HP/Agilent 'scopes that can do this in their sleep, but I

don't really want to bring the CS80 to work! What did Yamaha intend to

be used for this measurement back in 1976? I guess an old analog

storage 'scope would have worked, but those were pretty rare.



Anyway, I'd appreciate any tips from folks who have (successfully) tried

this!



By the way, since I've had to pull the M-cards out to do the full

calibration, for tuning I've been able to grab the sine wave right off

the wave shape converter chip at pad CP1. I run this into one input of

my 'scope and my iPhone, running Cleartune (in pitch-pipe mode with sine

wave) into the other 'scope input and set it to X-Y mode. Beautiful

Lissajous patterns that make it a snap to tune! Of course, since the

cards are out, the temperature isn't quite right and I'll have to do a

final tweak when it's all put back together. For that I'll use the

excellent iStrobesoft strobe tuner app from Peterson. It's $10, but well

worth it, especially since a hardware strobe tuner from Peterson start

at $100 and go up to $800!



Thanks again,



David






























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi David,

These adjustments might well be the very same ones I tried a while ago using an oscilloscope - and for the life of me I couldn't get those waveforms shown in the service manual, to show on my scope!

In the end I gave up... maybe now we can get to the bottom of what needs sorting there? I think Kent might know? We could all do with an updated 'filter envelope set-up procedure' page I think...;c)

Cheers,
TOM

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, rj krohn <r_j_d_2.phila@...> wrote:
>
> wish i could help. i tried to do some very minute EG calibrations by ear once on my 80. wasnt working. (luckily got it close enough to be not noticable). best of luck!
>
> --- On Tue, 2/1/11, David Rogoff <david@...> wrote:
>
> From: David Rogoff <david@...>
> Subject: [yamahacs80] Need help calibrating envelope generators on CS80!
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011, 12:06 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi all.
>
>
>
> I've been working on a CS80 for a bit now and finally have it all
>
> functioning to some degree. I'm going through the full
>
> tuning/calibration procedure now
>
> (http://therogoffs.com/cs80/CS80%20Adjustment%20Procedures%20and%20updates.PDF)
>
>
>
> and am having difficulty with the envelope times. I've never tried this
>
> before. On all units I've worked on, I've only needed to do the power
>
> supply and the usual M-card tuning.
>
>
>
> However, this beast had some of its M-cards replaced from a very giving
>
> CS-60 and the EG times, filter cutoffs, and levels are really whacked
>
> out from board to board. So, I'm trying to do the VCF Attack time on
>
> page 9 and VCA Attack time on page 15. I came up with a nice trigger
>
> source: they specify a 3Hz square wave of +/-10v. I found that tapping
>
> the output of the Sub-Oscillator square wave before its output resistor
>
> divider makes a great trigger. I just ran this, through a 1K resistor,
>
> to one input of my 'scope and then to the TR input of the M-card. I
>
> trigger on this channel and then connect the specified EG testpoint to
>
> the other input of the 'scope.
>
>
>
> This sort-of works, at least for the calibration of the short (4ms)
>
> time. Triggering and observing signals this slow on an old, analog
>
> oscilloscope is a real pain. Again, I got it somewhat stable for the
>
> 4ms measurement. However, for the 125ms measurement, I don't have a
>
> prayer. With the low repeat rate and long time measurement, the display
>
> is too erratic to get any useful measurements. At work I have access to
>
> nice digital HP/Agilent 'scopes that can do this in their sleep, but I
>
> don't really want to bring the CS80 to work! What did Yamaha intend to
>
> be used for this measurement back in 1976? I guess an old analog
>
> storage 'scope would have worked, but those were pretty rare.
>
>
>
> Anyway, I'd appreciate any tips from folks who have (successfully) tried
>
> this!
>
>
>
> By the way, since I've had to pull the M-cards out to do the full
>
> calibration, for tuning I've been able to grab the sine wave right off
>
> the wave shape converter chip at pad CP1. I run this into one input of
>
> my 'scope and my iPhone, running Cleartune (in pitch-pipe mode with sine
>
> wave) into the other 'scope input and set it to X-Y mode. Beautiful
>
> Lissajous patterns that make it a snap to tune! Of course, since the
>
> cards are out, the temperature isn't quite right and I'll have to do a
>
> final tweak when it's all put back together. For that I'll use the
>
> excellent iStrobesoft strobe tuner app from Peterson. It's $10, but well
>
> worth it, especially since a hardware strobe tuner from Peterson start
>
> at $100 and go up to $800!
>
>
>
> Thanks again,
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Some good news. First, I spent a bunch of time today looking at reasonably low cost digital 'scope solutions. This one looks pretty nice:

http://www.syscompdesign.com/CGR101.html

I can work with Windows, Mac, or Linux and give two inputs up to 2MHz and an output with a function generator, which could easily provide tuning reference. However, before I spent more money, I though I'd give my old, cheap, analog 'scope one more try.

After playing with the triggering a bunch, I think I got a setup that's accurate and repeatable enough to get all the envelopes around the right values and, most importantly, matching each other.

I made a few quick videos showing my setup for adjusting the attack time for the filter EG on one board. I just need to repeat for the VCA envelope and the other 15 cards...

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1869100171026

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1869097490959

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1869242574586

Please let me know if the links don't work right.

David

While we´re at it, I thought I´d chime in and point you at my own "Hoellenengel" album from 2005 which has been made available as a download album in the meantime:

http://www.musiczeit.com/album.php?album=1484&Stephen+Parsick+Hoellenengel

Mainly CS80, plus a little bit of Rhodes piano, Roland Vocoder Plus, Mini Moog, Korg Polyphonic... if you like the "Blade Runner" score I think you might like to listen to this, too.

Cheers,

Stephen.

----- Original Message -----
From: David Rogoff
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] An album with alot of CS80 on it



>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> rj krohn <mailto:r_j_d_2.phila@...>
> February 5, 2011 6:35 AM
>
>
> hi all, i wanted to pass on a link for you to an album that i released
> this week that has a sizeable amount of CS80 on it(as well as some
> other old analog goodies, haha). it is under the moniker The Insane
> Warrior; here are two places you can stream the record:
>
>
>
So far I've just listened to samples on amazon.com, but it sounds great!

David

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi all, i wanted to pass on a link for you to an album that i released this week that has a sizeable amount of CS80 on it(as well as some other old analog goodies, haha). it is under the moniker The Insane Warrior; here are two places you can stream the record:
















http://rjd2.bandcamp.com/album/we-are-the-doorways
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004CYJ3KS/ref=s9_simh_gw_p340_d1_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0ABC7YW2CQ6B6MSG0XYD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846
dont take this as a "sales-based self-promotion" or anything-im only sharing it here cause it probably is THE most amount of real CS80 on an album that will be publicly released all year; not to goad you into buying it. enjoy!-rj




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> rj krohn <mailto:r_j_d_2.phila@...>
> February 5, 2011 6:35 AM
>
>
> hi all, i wanted to pass on a link for you to an album that i released
> this week that has a sizeable amount of CS80 on it(as well as some
> other old analog goodies, haha). it is under the moniker The Insane
> Warrior; here are two places you can stream the record:
>
>
>

So far I've just listened to samples on amazon.com, but it sounds great!

David


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very nice production!

D

> Wavecomputer360 <mailto:wavecomputer360@...>
> February 3, 2011 6:16 PM
>
>
> While we´re at it, I thought I´d chime in and point you at my own
> "Hoellenengel" album from 2005 which has been made available as a
> download album in the meantime:
>
> http://www.musiczeit.com/album.php?album=1484&Stephen+Parsick+Hoellenengel
>
> Mainly CS80, plus a little bit of Rhodes piano, Roland Vocoder Plus,
> Mini Moog, Korg Polyphonic... if you like the "Blade Runner" score I
> think you might like to listen to this, too.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stephen.

Thanks Stephen,

I think I checked it out back a long time ago, but I just listened to
the track samples and it sounds great! "Der Barde" is definitely
channeling Vangelis. Maybe some day I'll actually play keyboards
instead of fixing them :(

David


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sounds cool, RJ!

I also used a truckload of CS80 on the 20-minute bonus track I recorded for the vinyl version of the new Destroyer record (side 3 of "Kaputt").

http://www.mergerecords.com/blog/2011/01/check-out-destroyers-kaputt-on-double-lp/

So I think this technically counts as a second example of a commercially available 2011 LP with a lot of real CS80 on it--despite its presence being limited to only one out of four sides of a double LP (of which only a humble 5000 copies were pressed...)

Anyway, it's reassuring to know there are other people still making music with these things as opposed to merely "collecting" them ;)

-Ted

--- On Sat, 2/5/11, rj krohn <r_j_d_2.phila@...> wrote:

From: rj krohn <r_j_d_2.phila@...>
Subject: [yamahacs80] An album with alot of CS80 on it
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Received: Saturday, February 5, 2011, 6:35 AM

















hi all, i wanted to pass on a link for you to an album that i released this week that has a sizeable amount of CS80 on it(as well as some other old analog goodies, haha). it is under the moniker The Insane Warrior; here are two places you can stream the record:



http://rjd2.bandcamp.com/album/we-are-the-doorways

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004CYJ3KS/ref=s9_simh_gw_p340_d1_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0ABC7YW2CQ6B6MSG0XYD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

dont take this as a "sales-based self-promotion" or anything-im only sharing it here cause it probably is THE most amount of real CS80 on an album that will be publicly released all year; not to goad you into buying it. enjoy!-rj



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I listened to the whole album last night and thought it was great! Lots of very characteristic CS80 sounds, but in context of great tunes. It starts sounding a bit like a mid-'70s Stevie Wonder instrumental combined with Stevie's GX-1 experiments on "Songs in the Key of Life" and "The Secret Life of Plants". Other songs reminded me of some early '70s "Three Dog Night". Also some Vangelis-ish sounds.

Definitely check it out!

David

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, rj krohn <r_j_d_2.phila@...> wrote:
>
> hi all, i wanted to pass on a link for you to an album that i released this week that has a sizeable amount of CS80 on it(as well as some other old analog goodies, haha). it is under the moniker The Insane Warrior; here are two places you can stream the record:

>
> http://rjd2.bandcamp.com/album/we-are-the-doorways

good deal, is the bonus track available anywhere other than the vinyl, out of curiousity?

--- On Mon, 2/7/11, T.M. Bois <bucklehorse@...> wrote:

From: T.M. Bois <bucklehorse@...>
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] An album with alot of CS80 on it
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 7, 2011, 1:25 PM


























Sounds cool, RJ!



I also used a truckload of CS80 on the 20-minute bonus track I recorded for the vinyl version of the new Destroyer record (side 3 of "Kaputt").



http://www.mergerecords.com/blog/2011/01/check-out-destroyers-kaputt-on-double-lp/



So I think this technically counts as a second example of a commercially available 2011 LP with a lot of real CS80 on it--despite its presence being limited to only one out of four sides of a double LP (of which only a humble 5000 copies were pressed...)



Anyway, it's reassuring to know there are other people still making music with these things as opposed to merely "collecting" them ;)



-Ted



--- On Sat, 2/5/11, rj krohn <r_j_d_2.phila@...> wrote:



From: rj krohn <r_j_d_2.phila@...>

Subject: [yamahacs80] An album with alot of CS80 on it

To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com

Received: Saturday, February 5, 2011, 6:35 AM







hi all, i wanted to pass on a link for you to an album that i released this week that has a sizeable amount of CS80 on it(as well as some other old analog goodies, haha). it is under the moniker The Insane Warrior; here are two places you can stream the record:



http://rjd2.bandcamp.com/album/we-are-the-doorways



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004CYJ3KS/ref=s9_simh_gw_p340_d1_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0ABC7YW2CQ6B6MSG0XYD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846



dont take this as a "sales-based self-promotion" or anything-im only sharing it here cause it probably is THE most amount of real CS80 on an album that will be publicly released all year; not to goad you into buying it. enjoy!-rj



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually, I just stumbled across a website that is streaming the track (during my daily trolling of the internet for reviews. Pathetic, I know...)

http://mediumrotation.blogspot.com/2011/01/destroyer-kaputt.html

The track in question is the second link - "The Laziest River". About 90% of the synth sounds are CS80, ranging from standard Eno/Vangelis worship to the brutal 80s instrumental soft-rock sounds that predominate the middle third of the track.

--- On Mon, 2/7/11, rj krohn <r_j_d_2.phila@...> wrote:

From: rj krohn <r_j_d_2.phila@...>
Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] An album with alot of CS80 on it
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Received: Monday, February 7, 2011, 11:54 AM

















good deal, is the bonus track available anywhere other than the vinyl, out of curiousity?



--- On Mon, 2/7/11, T.M. Bois <bucklehorse@...> wrote:



From: T.M. Bois <bucklehorse@...>

Subject: Re: [yamahacs80] An album with alot of CS80 on it

To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com

Date: Monday, February 7, 2011, 1:25 PM







Sounds cool, RJ!



I also used a truckload of CS80 on the 20-minute bonus track I recorded for the vinyl version of the new Destroyer record (side 3 of "Kaputt").



http://www.mergerecords.com/blog/2011/01/check-out-destroyers-kaputt-on-double-lp/



So I think this technically counts as a second example of a commercially available 2011 LP with a lot of real CS80 on it--despite its presence being limited to only one out of four sides of a double LP (of which only a humble 5000 copies were pressed...)



Anyway, it's reassuring to know there are other people still making music with these things as opposed to merely "collecting" them ;)



-Ted



--- On Sat, 2/5/11, rj krohn <r_j_d_2.phila@...> wrote:



From: rj krohn <r_j_d_2.phila@...>



Subject: [yamahacs80] An album with alot of CS80 on it



To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com



Received: Saturday, February 5, 2011, 6:35 AM







hi all, i wanted to pass on a link for you to an album that i released this week that has a sizeable amount of CS80 on it(as well as some other old analog goodies, haha). it is under the moniker The Insane Warrior; here are two places you can stream the record:



http://rjd2.bandcamp.com/album/we-are-the-doorways



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004CYJ3KS/ref=s9_simh_gw_p340_d1_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0ABC7YW2CQ6B6MSG0XYD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846



dont take this as a "sales-based self-promotion" or anything-im only sharing it here cause it probably is THE most amount of real CS80 on an album that will be publicly released all year; not to goad you into buying it. enjoy!-rj



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]