Yamaha CS80

This is a strange symptom - wonder if any tech's here might have come across this one before..?

Today I tuned a CS80 - sinewaves on CD, CD player and CS80 into Oscilloscope. Everything seemed to tune up great, visually and audio wise. However when I closed the lid to play her - I noticed a couple of notes (in the lower octaves) were quite flat. I investigated and voices 5 and 6 on channel I were the culprits. Note, I had switched footages to 16' and 8' (where I normally play) and this is where the problem revealed itself.

I went back to 'tweak again' but I noticed that when adjusting the first two settings as written in the manual (the keyboard 'spread' adjustment) that this is done on the 2' footage setting. When I went back to that 2' footage, everything was fine again. It was all in tune and perfectly set.

It is when I switch away, down to the footages I use most often 16' and 8' that the problem arises.

Next I tried something - just using my ears I 'tweaked' the second pot down on the culprit cards, under the fine trimmer, the one you adjust in connection with the fine one, until those flat low notes sounded in tune. This is totally workable and she plays beautifully down on the 16' and 8' settings, but now when I go to higher footages then those same notes are miles out. Obviously something isn't quite right here. What would cause the 'keyboard spread' to vary between footages?

Obviously, once set at 2' it should be correct for all footages, otherwise there would be a seperate 'spread' adjustment for each. So I have in effect 'botched' it!! Haha!

Please, does anyone know where I should start investigating this wierd fault?

Hope someone can help
Cheers
TOM

Forgive me if this is an obvious question, but you tuned the 4', 8', and 16' trim pots too, right?

--- On Sat, 1/23/10, Quazimodo <noddyspuncture@...> wrote:

From: Quazimodo <noddyspuncture@...>
Subject: [yamahacs80] Here's a strange tuning issue...
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Received: Saturday, January 23, 2010, 1:14 PM

















This is a strange symptom - wonder if any tech's here might have come across this one before..?



Today I tuned a CS80 - sinewaves on CD, CD player and CS80 into Oscilloscope. Everything seemed to tune up great, visually and audio wise. However when I closed the lid to play her - I noticed a couple of notes (in the lower octaves) were quite flat. I investigated and voices 5 and 6 on channel I were the culprits. Note, I had switched footages to 16' and 8' (where I normally play) and this is where the problem revealed itself.



I went back to 'tweak again' but I noticed that when adjusting the first two settings as written in the manual (the keyboard 'spread' adjustment) that this is done on the 2' footage setting. When I went back to that 2' footage, everything was fine again. It was all in tune and perfectly set.



It is when I switch away, down to the footages I use most often 16' and 8' that the problem arises.



Next I tried something - just using my ears I 'tweaked' the second pot down on the culprit cards, under the fine trimmer, the one you adjust in connection with the fine one, until those flat low notes sounded in tune. This is totally workable and she plays beautifully down on the 16' and 8' settings, but now when I go to higher footages then those same notes are miles out. Obviously something isn't quite right here. What would cause the 'keyboard spread' to vary between footages?



Obviously, once set at 2' it should be correct for all footages, otherwise there would be a seperate 'spread' adjustment for each. So I have in effect 'botched' it!! Haha!



Please, does anyone know where I should start investigating this wierd fault?



Hope someone can help

Cheers

TOM























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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I always tune mine "hot"....I let the CS80 warm up to temperature with
the lid down and my "half"

case cover on...all screws are out for lid and M board
Carriage...... master tunes, detune II and fine tunes at center
"0'..both banks set to 2 foot .. after a couple hours in warmup, I
open the lid, cover the top and back of the M board carriage with a
folded towel to keep heat in, and I raise the carriage.... I cover
the keybed with a towel to keep any foreign objects from coming in
contact or falling into the lower half of the CS80....


With the Mix setting 100% to bank II, I start adjusting.....

(to each your own......I am one of those who touches the foil side
lightly behind the blue pot to find oscillators....as shown to me from
the yamaha tech in the 80's)

the mini blue pot is the adjustment for tuning the 2 foot..... the
first larger trim is the "octave calibration"...

I play the low range osc1 into a tuner and mark its sharpnes or
flatness... then I search for osc 1 again using the upper
octaves.....If they are both equally sharp or flat I do not adjust
this pot...

I only adjust the little blue one.....counter clockwise sharpens the
pitch, clockwise flattens.....

You want to use an insulated scewdriver as a metal one will alter the
pitch you are reading as you adjust....

on the other hand if the reading of the upper is sharper than the
lower, you need to turn the larger pot clockwise, and counter
clockwise if the upper is flatter than the lower octave....once you
are sure the upper and lower octaves are at the same place in
shap/flat..... tune the osc into tune with the little blue one...

after bank 2 is done for all 8, adjust mix 1 in the same way.......


at this point once the 2 foot is in tune, I usually close the CS80
up and let it sit for an hour to 'rewarm" itsself....upon returning I
recheck the 2 foot with the lid downin both banks to see if everything
has stayed in the right place... taking note of which mix may need
further tweaking...


once I raise the lid I repeat the covering with towels and raise the
carriage....

I will repeat the 2 foot process if there was any change searching for
the bad osc...

If alls good , 4 foot on bank II using the second large trim pot
from top.... (I use the low range from this point on) tuning the
oscillators into pitch.....

You will notice thet the trims are easier to adjust in the
lower footage as they arent as touchy as the 2 foot trims...once 4
foot is done in both banks move to 8' and finally 16'.....


Close her up and play her for a while........ should sound sweet...to
the ears...


I experienced results like yours between 16/ 8 before too after a
sure tuning, but I found it was because the osc cards had cooled off
while I was adjusting....and when It rewarmed, the spread on 2 went
out so slightly it wasobvious in the lower octaves...


-----Original message-----
From: "Quazimodo" noddyspuncture@...
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:14:14 -0700
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [yamahacs80] Here's a strange tuning issue...

This is a strange symptom - wonder if any tech's here might have come
across this one before..?

Today I tuned a CS80 - sinewaves on CD, CD player and CS80 into
Oscilloscope. Everything seemed to tune up great, visually and audio
wise. However when I closed the lid to play her - I noticed a couple
of notes (in the lower octaves) were quite flat. I investigated and
voices 5 and 6 on channel I were the culprits. Note, I had switched
footages to 16' and 8' (where I normally play) and this is where the
problem revealed itself.

I went back to 'tweak again' but I noticed that when adjusting the
first two settings as written in the manual (the keyboard 'spread'
adjustment) that this is done onthe 2' footage setting. When I went
back to that 2' footage, everything was fine again. It was all in tune
and perfectly set.

It is when I switch away, down to the footages I use most often 16'
and 8' that the problem arises.

Next I tried something - just using my ears I 'tweaked' the second pot
down on the culprit cards, under the fine trimmer, the one you adjust
in connection with the fine one, until those flat low notes sounded in
tune. This is totally workable and she plays beautifully down on the
16' and 8' settings, but now when I go to higher footages then those
same notes are miles out. Obviously something isn't quite right here.
What would cause the 'keyboard spread' to vary between footages?

Obviously, once set at 2' it should be correct for all footages,
otherwise there would be a seperate 'spread' adjustment for each. So I
have in effect 'botched' it!! Haha!

Please, does anyone know where I should start investigating this
wierdfault?

Hope someone can help
Cheers
TOM










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Correct - right after I had spent a lot of time on getting the first part right with VR's 3 and 2...!

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Bois" <bucklehorse@...> wrote:
>
> Forgive me if this is an obvious question, but you tuned the 4', 8', and 16' trim pots too, right?
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 1/23/10, Quazimodo <noddyspuncture@...> wrote:
>
> From: Quazimodo <noddyspuncture@...>
> Subject: [yamahacs80] Here's a strange tuning issue...
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Saturday, January 23, 2010, 1:14 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This is a strange symptom - wonder if any tech's here might have come across this one before..?
>
>
>
> Today I tuned a CS80 - sinewaves on CD, CD player and CS80 into Oscilloscope. Everything seemed to tune up great, visually and audio wise. However when I closed the lid to play her - I noticed a couple of notes (in the lower octaves) were quite flat. I investigated and voices 5 and 6 on channel I were the culprits. Note, I had switched footages to 16' and 8' (where I normally play) and this is where the problem revealed itself.
>
>
>
> I went back to 'tweak again' but I noticed that when adjusting the first two settings as written in the manual (the keyboard 'spread' adjustment) that this is done on the 2' footage setting. When I went back to that 2' footage, everything was fine again. It was all in tune and perfectly set.
>
>
>
> It is when I switch away, down to the footages I use most often 16' and 8' that the problem arises.
>
>
>
> Next I tried something - just using my ears I 'tweaked' the second pot down on the culprit cards, under the fine trimmer, the one you adjust in connection with the fine one, until those flat low notes sounded in tune. This is totally workable and she plays beautifully down on the 16' and 8' settings, but now when I go to higher footages then those same notes are miles out. Obviously something isn't quite right here. What would cause the 'keyboard spread' to vary between footages?
>
>
>
> Obviously, once set at 2' it should be correct for all footages, otherwise there would be a seperate 'spread' adjustment for each. So I have in effect 'botched' it!! Haha!
>
>
>
> Please, does anyone know where I should start investigating this wierd fault?
>
>
>
> Hope someone can help
>
> Cheers
>
> TOM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks for your replies guys,

Laurie, I have a 'feeling' though that this might be a fault. It is quite a severe symtom affecting only two cards (one more than the other) I had to do quite an adjustment to VR2 (the octave) to bring the lower octave 'in' in card 6. And I use a scope where you can actaully see the waves 'beating'. I adjust until they are virtually motionless, so it should be spot on. If it was a heat issue wouldn't there be more voices reacting in a similar way?

Anyway there is one other thing. Have you noticed - and it's probably easier with a scope as you can *see* it happening - that with VR3 (the multi-turn '2 tune pot) you can actually tune though the 'correct' pitch about 5 or 6 times from one end to the other? It caught me out a few times as only one of the settings actually works with the rest of the tuning set-up. If you pick the wrong one - it'll all look and sound right but you'll never get the 4/8/16 feet in.

I wonder if there is a trick to knowing exactly which one (of the 5 or 6 posssibles) it should be? They must have had something at the factory because you can waste a hell of a lot of time searching it out! I assume they are 'harmonics' of the correct waveform that are being caught there!?

Cheers,
TOM

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Curry" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
>
> I always tune mine "hot"....I let the CS80 warm up to temperature with
> the lid down and my "half"
>
> Â case cover on...all screws are out for lid and M board
> Carriage...... master tunes, detune II and fine tunes at center
> "0'..both banks set to 2 foot .. after a couple hours in warmup, I
> open the lid, cover the top and back of the M board carriage with a
> folded towel to keep heat in, and I raise the carriage.... I cover
> the keybed with a towel to keep any foreign objects from coming in
> contact or falling into the lower half of the CS80....
>
>
>  With the Mix setting 100% to bank  II, I start adjusting.....
>
> (to each your own......I am one of those who touches the foil side
> lightly behind the blue pot to find oscillators....as shown to me from
> the yamaha tech in the 80's)
>
> the mini blue pot is the adjustment for tuning the 2 foot..... the
> first larger trim is the "octave calibration"...
>
> I play the low range osc1 into a tuner and mark its sharpnes or
> flatness... then I search for osc 1 again using the upper
> octaves.....If they are both equally sharp or flat I do not adjust
> this pot...
>
> I only adjust the little blue one.....counter clockwise sharpens the
> pitch, clockwise flattens.....
>
> You want to use an insulated scewdriver as a metal one will alter the
> pitch you are reading as you adjust....
>
> on the other hand if the reading of the upper is sharper than the
> lower, you need to turn the larger pot clockwise, and counter
> clockwise if the upper is flatter than the lower octave....once you
> are sure the upper and lower octaves are at the same place in
> shap/flat..... tune the osc into tune with the little blue one...
>
> after bank 2 is done for all 8, adjust mix 1 in the same way.......
>
>
> at this point once the 2 foot is in tune, I usually close the CS80
> up and let it sit for an hour to 'rewarm" itsself....upon returning I
> recheck the 2 foot with the lid downin both banks to see if everything
> has stayed in the right place... taking note of which mix may need
> further tweaking...
>
>
> once I raise the lid I repeat the covering with towels and raise the
> carriage....
>
> I will repeat the 2 foot process if there was any change searching for
> the bad osc...
>
> Â If alls good , 4 foot on bank II using the second large trim pot
> from top.... (I use the low range from this point on) tuning the
> oscillators into pitch.....
>
> You will notice thet the trims are easier to adjust in the
> lower footage as they arent as touchy as the 2 foot trims...once 4
> foot is done in both banks move to 8' and finally 16'.....
>
>
> Close her up and play her for a while........ should sound sweet...to
> the ears...
>
>
> I experienced results like yours between 16/ 8Â before too after a
> sure tuning, but I found it was because the osc cards had cooled off
> while I was adjusting....and when It rewarmed, the spread on 2 went
> out so slightly it wasobvious in the lower octaves...
>
>
> -----Original message-----
> From: "Quazimodo" noddyspuncture@...
> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:14:14 -0700
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [yamahacs80] Here's a strange tuning issue...
>
> This is a strange symptom - wonder if any tech's here might have come
> across this one before..?
>
> Today I tuned a CS80 - sinewaves on CD, CD player and CS80 into
> Oscilloscope. Everything seemed to tune up great, visually and audio
> wise. However when I closed the lid to play her - I noticed a couple
> of notes (in the lower octaves) were quite flat. I investigated and
> voices 5 and 6 on channel I were the culprits. Note, I had switched
> footages to 16' and 8' (where I normally play) and this is where the
> problem revealed itself.
>
> I went back to 'tweak again' but I noticed that when adjusting the
> first two settings as written in the manual (the keyboard 'spread'
> adjustment) that this is done onthe 2' footage setting. When I went
> back to that 2' footage, everything was fine again. It was all in tune
> and perfectly set.
>
> It is when I switch away, down to the footages I use most often 16'
> and 8' that the problem arises.
>
> Next I tried something - just using my ears I 'tweaked' the second pot
> down on the culprit cards, under the fine trimmer, the one you adjust
> in connection with the fine one, until those flat low notes sounded in
> tune. This is totally workable and she plays beautifully down on the
> 16' and 8' settings, but now when I go to higher footages then those
> same notes are miles out. Obviously something isn't quite right here.
> What would cause the 'keyboard spread' to vary between footages?
>
> Obviously, once set at 2' it should be correct for all footages,
> otherwise there would be a seperate 'spread' adjustment for each. So I
> have in effect 'botched' it!! Haha!
>
> Please, does anyone know where I should start investigating this
> wierdfault?
>
> Hope someone can help
> Cheers
> TOM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hiya,

This is not a strange tuning issue at all. Your VCO's over time will lose there liniarity, so you will need to tighten u the R1 R2 R3 and R4 resistors and VR's to compensate this on the cards with the problem or replace the VCO's them selves ( yeah right .

The alternative to this is to use the Kentuky Windage tuneing method used on the ser no 1000 to 1150 models. What you do is adjust the scale pot for lowest C so that the tune goes out in the 4" and 2" end on those cards.

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Quazimodo" <noddyspuncture@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your replies guys,
>
> Laurie, I have a 'feeling' though that this might be a fault. It is quite a severe symtom affecting only two cards (one more than the other) I had to do quite an adjustment to VR2 (the octave) to bring the lower octave 'in' in card 6. And I use a scope where you can actaully see the waves 'beating'. I adjust until they are virtually motionless, so it should be spot on. If it was a heat issue wouldn't there be more voices reacting in a similar way?
>
> Anyway there is one other thing. Have you noticed - and it's probably easier with a scope as you can *see* it happening - that with VR3 (the multi-turn '2 tune pot) you can actually tune though the 'correct' pitch about 5 or 6 times from one end to the other? It caught me out a few times as only one of the settings actually works with the rest of the tuning set-up. If you pick the wrong one - it'll all look and sound right but you'll never get the 4/8/16 feet in.
>
> I wonder if there is a trick to knowing exactly which one (of the 5 or 6 posssibles) it should be? They must have had something at the factory because you can waste a hell of a lot of time searching it out! I assume they are 'harmonics' of the correct waveform that are being caught there!?
>
> Cheers,
> TOM
>
>
>
> --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Curry" <laurie@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I always tune mine "hot"....I let the CS80 warm up to temperature with
> > the lid down and my "half"
> >
> > Â case cover on...all screws are out for lid and M board
> > Carriage...... master tunes, detune II and fine tunes at center
> > "0'..both banks set to 2 foot .. after a couple hours in warmup, I
> > open the lid, cover the top and back of the M board carriage with a
> > folded towel to keep heat in, and I raise the carriage.... I cover
> > the keybed with a towel to keep any foreign objects from coming in
> > contact or falling into the lower half of the CS80....
> >
> >
> >  With the Mix setting 100% to bank  II, I start adjusting.....
> >
> > (to each your own......I am one of those who touches the foil side
> > lightly behind the blue pot to find oscillators....as shown to me from
> > the yamaha tech in the 80's)
> >
> > the mini blue pot is the adjustment for tuning the 2 foot..... the
> > first larger trim is the "octave calibration"...
> >
> > I play the low range osc1 into a tuner and mark its sharpnes or
> > flatness... then I search for osc 1 again using the upper
> > octaves.....If they are both equally sharp or flat I do not adjust
> > this pot...
> >
> > I only adjust the little blue one.....counter clockwise sharpens the
> > pitch, clockwise flattens.....
> >
> > You want to use an insulated scewdriver as a metal one will alter the
> > pitch you are reading as you adjust....
> >
> > on the other hand if the reading of the upper is sharper than the
> > lower, you need to turn the larger pot clockwise, and counter
> > clockwise if the upper is flatter than the lower octave....once you
> > are sure the upper and lower octaves are at the same place in
> > shap/flat..... tune the osc into tune with the little blue one...
> >
> > after bank 2 is done for all 8, adjust mix 1 in the same way.......
> >
> >
> > at this point once the 2 foot is in tune, I usually close the CS80
> > up and let it sit for an hour to 'rewarm" itsself....upon returning I
> > recheck the 2 foot with the lid downin both banks to see if everything
> > has stayed in the right place... taking note of which mix may need
> > further tweaking...
> >
> >
> > once I raise the lid I repeat the covering with towels and raise the
> > carriage....
> >
> > I will repeat the 2 foot process if there was any change searching for
> > the bad osc...
> >
> > Â If alls good , 4 foot on bank II using the second large trim pot
> > from top.... (I use the low range from this point on) tuning the
> > oscillators into pitch.....
> >
> > You will notice thet the trims are easier to adjust in the
> > lower footage as they arent as touchy as the 2 foot trims...once 4
> > foot is done in both banks move to 8' and finally 16'.....
> >
> >
> > Close her up and play her for a while........ should sound sweet...to
> > the ears...
> >
> >
> > I experienced results like yours between 16/ 8Â before too after a
> > sure tuning, but I found it was because the osc cards had cooled off
> > while I was adjusting....and when It rewarmed, the spread on 2 went
> > out so slightly it wasobvious in the lower octaves...
> >
> >
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: "Quazimodo" noddyspuncture@
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:14:14 -0700
> > To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [yamahacs80] Here's a strange tuning issue...
> >
> > This is a strange symptom - wonder if any tech's here might have come
> > across this one before..?
> >
> > Today I tuned a CS80 - sinewaves on CD, CD player and CS80 into
> > Oscilloscope. Everything seemed to tune up great, visually and audio
> > wise. However when I closed the lid to play her - I noticed a couple
> > of notes (in the lower octaves) were quite flat. I investigated and
> > voices 5 and 6 on channel I were the culprits. Note, I had switched
> > footages to 16' and 8' (where I normally play) and this is where the
> > problem revealed itself.
> >
> > I went back to 'tweak again' but I noticed that when adjusting the
> > first two settings as written in the manual (the keyboard 'spread'
> > adjustment) that this is done onthe 2' footage setting. When I went
> > back to that 2' footage, everything was fine again. It was all in tune
> > and perfectly set.
> >
> > It is when I switch away, down to the footages I use most often 16'
> > and 8' that the problem arises.
> >
> > Next I tried something - just using my ears I 'tweaked' the second pot
> > down on the culprit cards, under the fine trimmer, the one you adjust
> > in connection with the fine one, until those flat low notes sounded in
> > tune. This is totally workable and she plays beautifully down on the
> > 16' and 8' settings, but now when I go to higher footages then those
> > same notes are miles out. Obviously something isn't quite right here.
> > What would cause the 'keyboard spread' to vary between footages?
> >
> > Obviously, once set at 2' it should be correct for all footages,
> > otherwise there would be a seperate 'spread' adjustment for each. So I
> > have in effect 'botched' it!! Haha!
> >
> > Please, does anyone know where I should start investigating this
> > wierdfault?
> >
> > Hope someone can help
> > Cheers
> > TOM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Hey Kent, many thanks for the info!

I called it 'strange' as it's the first time I have come across this in all my years tuning the beasty. Hope it's not a sign of things to come!?

Please could you expalain tightening up the resistors 1,2,3 and 4..?
And the VR's themselves..?

Do you mean change their values?

Thanks again,
TOM

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "kent_spong" <kent_spong@...> wrote:
>
> Hiya,
>
> This is not a strange tuning issue at all. Your VCO's over time will lose there liniarity, so you will need to tighten u the R1 R2 R3 and R4 resistors and VR's to compensate this on the cards with the problem or replace the VCO's them selves ( yeah right .
>
> The alternative to this is to use the Kentuky Windage tuneing method used on the ser no 1000 to 1150 models. What you do is adjust the scale pot for lowest C so that the tune goes out in the 4" and 2" end on those cards.
>
> --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Quazimodo" <noddyspuncture@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your replies guys,
> >
> > Laurie, I have a 'feeling' though that this might be a fault. It is quite a severe symtom affecting only two cards (one more than the other) I had to do quite an adjustment to VR2 (the octave) to bring the lower octave 'in' in card 6. And I use a scope where you can actaully see the waves 'beating'. I adjust until they are virtually motionless, so it should be spot on. If it was a heat issue wouldn't there be more voices reacting in a similar way?
> >
> > Anyway there is one other thing. Have you noticed - and it's probably easier with a scope as you can *see* it happening - that with VR3 (the multi-turn '2 tune pot) you can actually tune though the 'correct' pitch about 5 or 6 times from one end to the other? It caught me out a few times as only one of the settings actually works with the rest of the tuning set-up. If you pick the wrong one - it'll all look and sound right but you'll never get the 4/8/16 feet in.
> >
> > I wonder if there is a trick to knowing exactly which one (of the 5 or 6 posssibles) it should be? They must have had something at the factory because you can waste a hell of a lot of time searching it out! I assume they are 'harmonics' of the correct waveform that are being caught there!?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > TOM
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Curry" <laurie@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I always tune mine "hot"....I let the CS80 warm up to temperature with
> > > the lid down and my "half"
> > >
> > > Â case cover on...all screws are out for lid and M board
> > > Carriage...... master tunes, detune II and fine tunes at center
> > > "0'..both banks set to 2 foot .. after a couple hours in warmup, I
> > > open the lid, cover the top and back of the M board carriage with a
> > > folded towel to keep heat in, and I raise the carriage.... I cover
> > > the keybed with a towel to keep any foreign objects from coming in
> > > contact or falling into the lower half of the CS80....
> > >
> > >
> > >  With the Mix setting 100% to bank  II, I start adjusting.....
> > >
> > > (to each your own......I am one of those who touches the foil side
> > > lightly behind the blue pot to find oscillators....as shown to me from
> > > the yamaha tech in the 80's)
> > >
> > > the mini blue pot is the adjustment for tuning the 2 foot..... the
> > > first larger trim is the "octave calibration"...
> > >
> > > I play the low range osc1 into a tuner and mark its sharpnes or
> > > flatness... then I search for osc 1 again using the upper
> > > octaves.....If they are both equally sharp or flat I do not adjust
> > > this pot...
> > >
> > > I only adjust the little blue one.....counter clockwise sharpens the
> > > pitch, clockwise flattens.....
> > >
> > > You want to use an insulated scewdriver as a metal one will alter the
> > > pitch you are reading as you adjust....
> > >
> > > on the other hand if the reading of the upper is sharper than the
> > > lower, you need to turn the larger pot clockwise, and counter
> > > clockwise if the upper is flatter than the lower octave....once you
> > > are sure the upper and lower octaves are at the same place in
> > > shap/flat..... tune the osc into tune with the little blue one...
> > >
> > > after bank 2 is done for all 8, adjust mix 1 in the same way.......
> > >
> > >
> > > at this point once the 2 foot is in tune, I usually close the CS80
> > > up and let it sit for an hour to 'rewarm" itsself....upon returning I
> > > recheck the 2 foot with the lid downin both banks to see if everything
> > > has stayed in the right place... taking note of which mix may need
> > > further tweaking...
> > >
> > >
> > > once I raise the lid I repeat the covering with towels and raise the
> > > carriage....
> > >
> > > I will repeat the 2 foot process if there was any change searching for
> > > the bad osc...
> > >
> > > Â If alls good , 4 foot on bank II using the second large trim pot
> > > from top.... (I use the low range from this point on) tuning the
> > > oscillators into pitch.....
> > >
> > > You will notice thet the trims are easier to adjust in the
> > > lower footage as they arent as touchy as the 2 foot trims...once 4
> > > foot is done in both banks move to 8' and finally 16'.....
> > >
> > >
> > > Close her up and play her for a while........ should sound sweet...to
> > > the ears...
> > >
> > >
> > > I experienced results like yours between 16/ 8Â before too after a
> > > sure tuning, but I found it was because the osc cards had cooled off
> > > while I was adjusting....and when It rewarmed, the spread on 2 went
> > > out so slightly it wasobvious in the lower octaves...
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: "Quazimodo" noddyspuncture@
> > > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:14:14 -0700
> > > To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [yamahacs80] Here's a strange tuning issue...
> > >
> > > This is a strange symptom - wonder if any tech's here might have come
> > > across this one before..?
> > >
> > > Today I tuned a CS80 - sinewaves on CD, CD player and CS80 into
> > > Oscilloscope. Everything seemed to tune up great, visually and audio
> > > wise. However when I closed the lid to play her - I noticed a couple
> > > of notes (in the lower octaves) were quite flat. I investigated and
> > > voices 5 and 6 on channel I were the culprits. Note, I had switched
> > > footages to 16' and 8' (where I normally play) and this is where the
> > > problem revealed itself.
> > >
> > > I went back to 'tweak again' but I noticed that when adjusting the
> > > first two settings as written in the manual (the keyboard 'spread'
> > > adjustment) that this is done onthe 2' footage setting. When I went
> > > back to that 2' footage, everything was fine again. It was all in tune
> > > and perfectly set.
> > >
> > > It is when I switch away, down to the footages I use most often 16'
> > > and 8' that the problem arises.
> > >
> > > Next I tried something - just using my ears I 'tweaked' the second pot
> > > down on the culprit cards, under the fine trimmer, the one you adjust
> > > in connection with the fine one, until those flat low notes sounded in
> > > tune. This is totally workable and she plays beautifully down on the
> > > 16' and 8' settings, but now when I go to higher footages then those
> > > same notes are miles out. Obviously something isn't quite right here.
> > > What would cause the 'keyboard spread' to vary between footages?
> > >
> > > Obviously, once set at 2' it should be correct for all footages,
> > > otherwise there would be a seperate 'spread' adjustment for each. So I
> > > have in effect 'botched' it!! Haha!
> > >
> > > Please, does anyone know where I should start investigating this
> > > wierdfault?
> > >
> > > Hope someone can help
> > > Cheers
> > > TOM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

I had no prior knowledge that the multiturn trim "octave
spread"(intonation) could calibrate the upper to lower octaves of
one oscillator "correctly' several times as you turn the pot from 1
extreme to the other....unless....

.... the range of the spread can stretch 3 octaves of pitch to
fit over 5 octaves of keys ? or compress 5 octaves of pitch down
to 3 octaves of keys? and thus the the oscilliscope would stop
beating as you found octave 4 and octave 3?

-----Original message-----
From: "Quazimodo" noddyspuncture@...
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 03:00:16 -0700
To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [yamahacs80] Re: Here's a strange tuning issue...

Thanks for your replies guys,

Laurie, I have a 'feeling' though that this might be a fault. It is
quite a severe symtom affecting only two cards (one more than the
other) I had to do quite an adjustment to VR2 (the octave) to bring
the loweroctave 'in' in card 6. And I use a scope where you can
actaully see the waves 'beating'. I adjust until they are virtually
motionless, so it should be spot on. If it was a heat issue wouldn't
there be more voices reacting in a similar way?

Anyway there is one other thing. Have you noticed - and it's probably
easier with a scope as you can *see* it happening - that with VR3 (the
multi-turn '2 tune pot) you can actually tune though the 'correct'
pitch about 5 or 6 times from one end to the other? It caught me out a
few times as only one of the settings actually works with the rest of
the tuning set-up. If you pick the wrong one - it'll all look and
sound right but you'll never get the 4/8/16 feet in.

I wonder if there is a trick to knowing exactly which one (of the 5 or
6 posssibles) it should be? They must have had something at the
factory because you can waste a hell of a lot of time searching it
out! I assume they are 'harmonics' of the correct waveform thatare
being caught there!?

Cheers,
TOM

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Curry" wrote:
>
>
> I always tune mine "hot"....I let the CS80 warm up to temperature
with
> the lid down and my "half"
>
> Â case cover on...all screws are out for lid and M board
> Carriage...... master tunes, detune II and fine tunes at center
> "0'..both banks set to 2 foot .. after a couple hours in warmup,Â
I
> open the lid, cover the top and back of the M board carriage
with a
> folded towel to keep heat in, and I raise the carriage.... I
cover
> the keybed with a towel to keep any foreign objects from coming in
> contact or falling into the lower half of the CS80....
>
>
>  With the Mix setting 100% to bank  II, I start adjusting.....
>
> (to eachyour own......I am one of those who touches the foil side
> lightly behind the blue pot to find oscillators....as shown to me
from
> the yamaha tech in the 80's)
>
> the mini blue pot is the adjustment for tuning the 2 foot..... the
> first larger trim is the "octave calibration"...
>
> I play the low range osc1 into a tuner and mark its sharpnes
or
> flatness... then I search for osc 1 again using the upper
> octaves.....If they are both equally sharp or flat I do not adjust
> this pot...
>
> I only adjust the little blue one.....counter clockwise sharpens the
> pitch, clockwise flattens.....
>
> You want to use an insulated scewdriver as a metal one will alter
the
> pitch you are reading as you adjust....
>
> on the other hand if the reading of the upper is sharper than the
> lower, you need to turn thelarger pot clockwise, and counter
> clockwise if the upper is flatter than the lower octave....once you
> are sure the upper and lower octaves are at the same place in
> shap/flat..... tune the osc into tune with the little blue one...
>
> after bank 2 is done for all 8, adjust mix 1 in the same way.......
>
>
> at this point once the 2 foot is in tune, I usually close the
CS80
> up and let it sit for an hour to 'rewarm" itsself....upon returning
I
> recheck the 2 foot with the lid downin both banks to see if
everything
> has stayed in the right place... taking note of which mix may need
> further tweaking...
>
>
> once I raise the lid I repeat the covering with towels and raise the
> carriage....
>
> I will repeat the 2 foot process if there was any change searching
for
> the bad osc...
>
> Â If allsgood , 4 foot on bank II using the second large trim pot
> from top.... (I use the low range from this point on) tuning the
> oscillators into pitch.....
>
> You will notice thet the trims are easier to adjust in the
> lower footage as they arent as touchy as the 2 foot trims...once
4
> foot is done in both banks move to 8' and finally 16'.....
>
>
> Close her up and play her for a while........ should sound
sweet...to
> the ears...
>
>
> I experienced results like yours between 16/ 8Â before too after
a
> sure tuning, but I found it was because the osc cards had cooled off
> while I was adjusting....and when It rewarmed, the spread on 2 went
> out so slightly it wasobvious in the lower octaves...
>
>
> -----Original message-----
> From: "Quazimodo" noddyspuncture@...
> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 201014:14:14 -0700
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [yamahacs80] Here's a strange tuning issue...
>
> This is a strange symptom - wonder if any tech's here might have
come
> across this one before..?
>
> Today I tuned a CS80 - sinewaves on CD, CD player and CS80 into
> Oscilloscope. Everything seemed to tune up great, visually and audio
> wise. However when I closed the lid to play her - I noticed a couple
> of notes (in the lower octaves) were quite flat. I investigated and
> voices 5 and 6 on channel I were the culprits. Note, I had switched
> footages to 16' and 8' (where I normally play) and this is where the
> problem revealed itself.
>
> I went back to 'tweak again' but I noticed that when adjusting the
> first two settings as written in the manual (the keyboard 'spread'
> adjustment) that this is done onthe 2' footage setting. When Iwent
> back to that 2' footage, everything was fine again. It was all in
tune
> and perfectly set.
>
> It is when I switch away, down to the footages I use most often 16'
> and 8' that the problem arises.
>
> Next I tried something - just using my ears I 'tweaked' the second
pot
> down on the culprit cards, under the fine trimmer, the one you
adjust
> in connection with the fine one, until those flat low notes sounded
in
> tune. This is totally workable and she plays beautifully down on the
> 16' and 8' settings, but now when I go to higher footages then those
> same notes are miles out. Obviously something isn't quite right
here.
> What would cause the 'keyboard spread' to vary between footages?
>
> Obviously, once set at 2' it should be correct for all footages,
> otherwise there would be a seperate 'spread' adjustment for each. So
I
> have ineffect 'botched' it!! Haha!
>
> Please, does anyone know where I should start investigating this
> wierdfault?
>
> Hope someone can help
> Cheers
> TOM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, I see what you're geting at Laurie, but as I also listen to the sine-waves I would be able to hear that I am actually tuning the voice board an octave lower (or higher)... but that is the point. The pitch actually seems to stay in roughly the same 'zone' or at least it appears that way...!?

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Curry" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
>
> I had no prior knowledge that the multiturn trim "octave
> spread"(intonation) could calibrate the upper to lower octaves of
> one oscillator "correctly' several times as you turn the pot from 1
> extreme to the other....unless....
>
> .... the range of the spread can stretch 3 octaves of pitch to
> fit over 5 octaves of keys ? or compress 5 octaves of pitch down
> to 3 octaves of keys? and thus the the oscilliscope would stop
> beating as you found octave 4 and octave 3?Â
>
> -----Original message-----
> From: "Quazimodo" noddyspuncture@...
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 03:00:16 -0700
> To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [yamahacs80] Re: Here's a strange tuning issue...
>
> Thanks for your replies guys,
>
> Laurie, I have a 'feeling' though that this might be a fault. It is
> quite a severe symtom affecting only two cards (one more than the
> other) I had to do quite an adjustment to VR2 (the octave) to bring
> the loweroctave 'in' in card 6. And I use a scope where you can
> actaully see the waves 'beating'. I adjust until they are virtually
> motionless, so it should be spot on. If it was a heat issue wouldn't
> there be more voices reacting in a similar way?
>
> Anyway there is one other thing. Have you noticed - and it's probably
> easier with a scope as you can *see* it happening - that with VR3 (the
> multi-turn '2 tune pot) you can actually tune though the 'correct'
> pitch about 5 or 6 times from one end to the other? It caught me out a
> few times as only one of the settings actually works with the rest of
> the tuning set-up. If you pick the wrong one - it'll all look and
> sound right but you'll never get the 4/8/16 feet in.
>
> I wonder if there is a trick to knowing exactly which one (of the 5 or
> 6 posssibles) it should be? They must have had something at the
> factory because you can waste a hell of a lot of time searching it
> out! I assume they are 'harmonics' of the correct waveform thatare
> being caught there!?
>
> Cheers,
> TOM
>
>
>
> --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Curry" wrote:
> >
> >
> > I always tune mine "hot"....I let the CS80 warm up to temperature
> with
> > the lid down and my "half"
> >
> >  case cover on...all screws are out for lid and M board
> > Carriage...... master tunes, detune II and fine tunes at center
> > "0'..both banks set to 2 foot .. after a couple hours in warmup,ÂÂ
> I
> > open the lid, cover the top and back of the M board carriage
> with a
> > folded towel to keep heat in, and I raise the carriage.... I
> cover
> > the keybed with a towel to keep any foreign objects from coming in
> > contact or falling into the lower half of the CS80....
> >
> >
> >  With the Mix setting 100% to bank  II, I start adjusting.....
> >
> > (to eachyour own......I am one of those who touches the foil side
> > lightly behind the blue pot to find oscillators....as shown to me
> from
> > the yamaha tech in the 80's)
> >
> > the mini blue pot is the adjustment for tuning the 2 foot..... the
> > first larger trim is the "octave calibration"...
> >
> > I play the low range osc1 into a tuner and mark its sharpnes
> or
> > flatness... then I search for osc 1 again using the upper
> > octaves.....If they are both equally sharp or flat I do not adjust
> > this pot...
> >
> > I only adjust the little blue one.....counter clockwise sharpens the
> > pitch, clockwise flattens.....
> >
> > You want to use an insulated scewdriver as a metal one will alter
> the
> > pitch you are reading as you adjust....
> >
> > on the other hand if the reading of the upper is sharper than the
> > lower, you need to turn thelarger pot clockwise, and counter
> > clockwise if the upper is flatter than the lower octave....once you
> > are sure the upper and lower octaves are at the same place in
> > shap/flat..... tune the osc into tune with the little blue one...
> >
> > after bank 2 is done for all 8, adjust mix 1 in the same way.......
> >
> >
> > at this point once the 2 foot is in tune, I usually close the
> CS80
> > up and let it sit for an hour to 'rewarm" itsself....upon returning
> I
> > recheck the 2 foot with the lid downin both banks to see if
> everything
> > has stayed in the right place... taking note of which mix may need
> > further tweaking...
> >
> >
> > once I raise the lid I repeat the covering with towels and raise the
> > carriage....
> >
> > I will repeat the 2 foot process if there was any change searching
> for
> > the bad osc...
> >
> >  If allsgood , 4 foot on bank II using the second large trim pot
> > from top.... (I use the low range from this point on) tuning the
> > oscillators into pitch.....
> >
> > You will notice thet the trims are easier to adjust in the
> > lower footage as they arent as touchy as the 2 foot trims...once
> 4
> > foot is done in both banks move to 8' and finally 16'.....
> >
> >
> > Close her up and play her for a while........ should sound
> sweet...to
> > the ears...
> >
> >
> > I experienced results like yours between 16/ 8 before too after
> a
> > sure tuning, but I found it was because the osc cards had cooled off
> > while I was adjusting....and when It rewarmed, the spread on 2 went
> > out so slightly it wasobvious in the lower octaves...
> >
> >
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: "Quazimodo" noddyspuncture@
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 201014:14:14 -0700
> > To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [yamahacs80] Here's a strange tuning issue...
> >
> > This is a strange symptom - wonder if any tech's here might have
> come
> > across this one before..?
> >
> > Today I tuned a CS80 - sinewaves on CD, CD player and CS80 into
> > Oscilloscope. Everything seemed to tune up great, visually and audio
> > wise. However when I closed the lid to play her - I noticed a couple
> > of notes (in the lower octaves) were quite flat. I investigated and
> > voices 5 and 6 on channel I were the culprits. Note, I had switched
> > footages to 16' and 8' (where I normally play) and this is where the
> > problem revealed itself.
> >
> > I went back to 'tweak again' but I noticed that when adjusting the
> > first two settings as written in the manual (the keyboard 'spread'
> > adjustment) that this is done onthe 2' footage setting. When Iwent
> > back to that 2' footage, everything was fine again. It was all in
> tune
> > and perfectly set.
> >
> > It is when I switch away, down to the footages I use most often 16'
> > and 8' that the problem arises.
> >
> > Next I tried something - just using my ears I 'tweaked' the second
> pot
> > down on the culprit cards, under the fine trimmer, the one you
> adjust
> > in connection with the fine one, until those flat low notes sounded
> in
> > tune. This is totally workable and she plays beautifully down on the
> > 16' and 8' settings, but now when I go to higher footages then those
> > same notes are miles out. Obviously something isn't quite right
> here.
> > What would cause the 'keyboard spread' to vary between footages?
> >
> > Obviously, once set at 2' it should be correct for all footages,
> > otherwise there would be a seperate 'spread' adjustment for each. So
> I
> > have ineffect 'botched' it!! Haha!
> >
> > Please, does anyone know where I should start investigating this
> > wierdfault?
> >
> > Hope someone can help
> > Cheers
> > TOM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>