Yamaha CS80

Hi,

First post to the list...

Just a question really, just wondering if any experienced techs on this list has any idea what the long(er) term solution to keeping a Cs80 going, will be in the future....?

Im sure this discussion has been held before on the AH list, but thought id bring it over to this list, now in 2004...

As i see it, all Cs80s are currently on borrowed time, with regards to spare parts, Yamaha are out of the IG series Ics for the Cs80, so the question is, whats the long term solution?

Is a fab run for say the VCO and VCF chips a possibility?
These are i guess, the critical ones, of course, the Vca chips are also important.

But if there isnt a fab run done then, its either down to pulling parts from Cs50's and Cs60's for Cs80's (until they run out) OR building discreete "drop-in" circuits.

Bearing in mind how many Ics are in the Cs80 building discreet Voice Cards and TRG boards and such is going to be quite a job....

I know this may seem like a slightly negative post, its just that it slightly concerns me that the Cs80 - fantastic instrument that it is (my favourite polysynth) is in 2004, a bit of a worry to keep running....
My Synthex for example, is not...

Anyway, greetings to the list!
What do you guys think on this matter?

Regards,
Rob.

----- Original Message -----

From: BlchrR@...

To: yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 5:31 PM

Subject: [yamahacs80] Re: Greetings and a question!

Hi,

First post to the list...

Just a question really, just wondering if any experienced techs on this list has any idea what the long(er) term solution to keeping a Cs80 going, will be in the future....?

Im sure this discussion has been held before on the AH list, but thought id bring it over to this list, now in 2004...

As i see it, all Cs80s are currently on borrowed time, with regards to spare parts, Yamaha are out of the IG series Ics for the Cs80, so the question is, whats the long term solution?

Is a fab run for say the VCO and VCF chips a possibility?
These are i guess, the critical ones, of course, the Vca chips are also important.

But if there isnt a fab run done then, its either down to pulling parts from Cs50's and Cs60's for Cs80's (until they run out) OR building discreete "drop-in" circuits.

Bearing in mind how many Ics are in the Cs80 building discreet Voice Cards and TRG boards and such is going to be quite a job....

I know this may seem like a slightly negative post, its just that it slightly concerns me that the Cs80 - fantastic instrument that it is (my favourite polysynth) is in 2004, a bit of a worry to keep running....
My Synthex for example, is not...

Anyway, greetings to the list!
What do you guys think on this matter?

Regards,
Rob.

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, BlchrR@a... wrote:

> Hi,
>
> First post to the list...

Welcome!

> Just a question really, just wondering if any experienced techs on

this list has any idea what the long(er) term solution to keeping a
Cs80 going, will be in the future....?

Good topic!

> As i see it, all Cs80s are currently on borrowed time, with regards

to spare parts, Yamaha are out of the IG series Ics for the Cs80, so
the question is, whats the long term solution?

Luckily, most of the parts in the CS-80 are still made today (all the
CMOS ICs, op-amps, etc). Also, luckily, the custom Yamaha chips
appear to be pretty reliable. All failures I've seen have been CMOS
parts or op-amps.

> Is a fab run for say the VCO and VCF chips a possibility?
> These are i guess, the critical ones, of course, the Vca chips are

also important.

Someone talked about this a while ago - any more info?

>
> But if there isnt a fab run done then, its either down to pulling

parts from Cs50's and Cs60's for Cs80's

The problem with pulling chips is that they're just as old as the ones
you're replacing!

> Bearing in mind how many Ics are in the Cs80 building discreet Voice

Cards and TRG boards and such is going to be quite a job....

Well, Crow is the master of this and has done some already
(http://www.cs80.com/ne_proj.html). For the GX/SY modules, it's
possible to make it fit, but that's not going to happen inside a CS-80!

I think, with maintenence, we can keep these running for many more
years. For me, way more than half the appeal of the CS-80 is the
keyboard/poly-aftertouch, ribbon, and controls. Worst case, I could
see gutting the beast and turning it into and amazing MIDI controller
for CS80V and other hardware/VA synths.

It would also be fairly easy to tap the control voltages and gates
going to the voice card and drive a modular (I know - linear VCOs...).
Yes, for an additional $20k, or so, you can have a modular CS-80
that's bigger and heavier than a GX-1!

David

Good points, but...

I believe chips to be rather sturdy unless they get exposed to extremely
high voltage peaks (which may occur on some models, according to Gerd
Drogemuller who was in charge of the CS80 at Yamaha Germany). As long as the
voltage levels are kept stable and as long as the power supply doesn´t get
out of control, things should be fine. EPROMs might be more prone to
failure, I´d say (being a non-tech).

Stephen.

"I´m striving for the mysterious. The obvious doesn´t interest me.." (Jon
Hassell)

Visit the official [´ramp] website at www.doombient.com

----- Original Message -----
From: David Rogoff <david@...>
To: <yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 8:23 PM
Subject: [yamahacs80] CS-80 life expectancy - was Re: Greetings and a
question!


>
>
> --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, BlchrR@a... wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > First post to the list...
>
> Welcome!
>
> > Just a question really, just wondering if any experienced techs on
> this list has any idea what the long(er) term solution to keeping a
> Cs80 going, will be in the future....?
>
> Good topic!
>
> > As i see it, all Cs80s are currently on borrowed time, with regards
> to spare parts, Yamaha are out of the IG series Ics for the Cs80, so
> the question is, whats the long term solution?
>
> Luckily, most of the parts in the CS-80 are still made today (all the
> CMOS ICs, op-amps, etc). Also, luckily, the custom Yamaha chips
> appear to be pretty reliable. All failures I've seen have been CMOS
> parts or op-amps.
>
> > Is a fab run for say the VCO and VCF chips a possibility?
> > These are i guess, the critical ones, of course, the Vca chips are
> also important.
>
> Someone talked about this a while ago - any more info?
>
> >
> > But if there isnt a fab run done then, its either down to pulling
> parts from Cs50's and Cs60's for Cs80's
>
> The problem with pulling chips is that they're just as old as the ones
> you're replacing!
>
> > Bearing in mind how many Ics are in the Cs80 building discreet Voice
> Cards and TRG boards and such is going to be quite a job....
>
> Well, Crow is the master of this and has done some already
> (http://www.cs80.com/ne_proj.html). For the GX/SY modules, it's
> possible to make it fit, but that's not going to happen inside a CS-80!
>
> I think, with maintenence, we can keep these running for many more
> years. For me, way more than half the appeal of the CS-80 is the
> keyboard/poly-aftertouch, ribbon, and controls. Worst case, I could
> see gutting the beast and turning it into and amazing MIDI controller
> for CS80V and other hardware/VA synths.
>
> It would also be fairly easy to tap the control voltages and gates
> going to the voice card and drive a modular (I know - linear VCOs...).
> Yes, for an additional $20k, or so, you can have a modular CS-80
> that's bigger and heavier than a GX-1!
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I seriously doubt if a new fab run is at all feasible. When the
time comes that CS50 scabs become rarer or marginally desirable due
to their age as noted... you're talking maybe 1500 total customers.
How many chips are you going to want to buy in a year?
The upfront "NRE" costs for a new chip vary from maybe $250k to $1M
in my experience. The low volumes could tend to make it higher,
while IF existing designs were used, that could potentially hold the
costs down (though I doubt it, as they'd need to be modified for
current fab processes?). For a few thousand chips a year total, and
maybe you could get high 2 figures for each chip... I just don't see
it, unless McCartney or some big shot wants to be our benefactor (but
most of those guys don't seem to share our nostalgia for the old
gear). And that doesn't count the # of different chips. My
question is if the different ICs could have their functionality
combined into one chip (given todays smaller device geometries), that
you could select the function of via pin signals on some very small
sub-assembly/connector. Perhaps the Yamaha and Curtis chips could
even be accomodated in such a design. Would be cool! Thoughts?

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, "David Rogoff" <david@t...> wrote:
>
> --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, BlchrR@a... wrote:
>
> > Is a fab run for say the VCO and VCF chips a possibility?
> > These are i guess, the critical ones, of course, the Vca chips
> are also important.
>
> Someone talked about this a while ago - any more info?
>
> >
>>
> > Bearing in mind how many Ics are in the Cs80 building discreet
Voice
> Cards and TRG boards and such is going to be quite a job....
>
> Well, Crow is the master of this and has done some already
> (http://www.cs80.com/ne_proj.html). For the GX/SY modules, it's
> possible to make it fit, but that's not going to happen inside a
CS-80!
>
> I think, with maintenence, we can keep these running for many more
> years. For me, way more than half the appeal of the CS-80 is the
> keyboard/poly-aftertouch, ribbon, and controls. Worst case, I
could
> see gutting the beast and turning it into and amazing MIDI
controller
> for CS80V and other hardware/VA synths.
>
> It would also be fairly easy to tap the control voltages and gates
> going to the voice card and drive a modular (I know - linear
VCOs...).
> Yes, for an additional $20k, or so, you can have a modular CS-80
> that's bigger and heavier than a GX-1!
>
> David

I don't think it would be that much. Maybe $50K for NRE and first 2500
parts. In any case, I'll just stick with my plan to make discrete
equivalent circuits that can be implemented in surface-mount. I already
have the VCO, waveshaper and filters done and just need to get the EGs and
VCAs done.

Crow
/**/

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, dscr22 wrote:

> I seriously doubt if a new fab run is at all feasible.

Maybe my references are totally apples and oranges re:chip fabs of
different types and this type. Can't comment on your guess, though
it's a given you know much more about the general subject matter.
Here's the $64000 question though: how can you make a discrete
replacement for an IC fit in the allotted physical space?

--- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, The Old Crow <oldcrow@o...> wrote:
>
> I don't think it would be that much. Maybe $50K for NRE and
first 2500
> parts. In any case, I'll just stick with my plan to make discrete
> equivalent circuits that can be implemented in surface-mount. I
already
> have the VCO, waveshaper and filters done and just need to get the
EGs and
> VCAs done.
>
> Crow
> /**/
>
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, dscr22 wrote:
>
> > I seriously doubt if a new fab run is at all feasible.

My plan isn't to make chip-level replacements. I want to replace the
entire M board with a discrete version. It won't exactly be cheap (if I'm
lucky in quantity I could sell them for $250 each), but it will work
exactly like an M board.

The only chip I could make almost the same size in discrete form is the
VCA.

Crow
/**/

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, dscr22 wrote:

> Here's the $64000 question though: how can you make a discrete
> replacement for an IC fit in the allotted physical space?