Unfortunately, I have not been able to detect any faulty wire yet. But something that could be important was evident: I checked the pin 6 (inhibit/enable) in the 4051s in the TSBs. When pressing the corresponding keys in the half octave, they pass from the OFF state (+8,5 V) to the ON (-6,5), staying steady until a new key from another (half) octave is pressed. Well, in the TSB1 all of the pin 6 stay on the OFF state (+8,5) whatever key is pressed on the keyboard. In the TSB2, the IC 1 does not work as well, while IC 2,3,4,5 are OK. While the outputs (pin 3) give a raising voltage related to the corresponding (half) octave key pressure ONLY in the last (and only working) octave ICs: IC 4 and 5 of TSB2. That's all. Can this help? At least, could a specific wire problem cause all of these faults? I feel a little worried. Is this the end of my baby? The great techs are so far from here, Kent, isn't it? :-) And my skilled friends in Italy have their own job Waiting for your VERY precious help (or for an Easter miracle) F Il giorno 21/apr/2011, alle ore 12.37, Andrew Kirkby ha scritto: > Fernando, > > Check that you have the right supply voltages at the points at the > board (where you installed the decoupling caps) and check continuity > from point to point for each wire attached to those boards (Fluke on > "beep" mode :P ) > > Let me know how you go. > > AK > On 21/04/2011, at 8:30 PM, Fernando Zarone wrote: > > > Probably, it could be. > > But I checked the solder points, refreshed them... seem ok. > > Moreover: could a broken wire "lock" the output (pin 3) of 4051s ? > > shouldn't it be an internal processing, between the inputs (other IC > > pins) and pin 3? > > > > > > > > Il giorno 21/apr/2011, alle ore 11.32, Quazimodo ha scritto: > > > >> If you've been working on the TSB and/or TKC boards then I would > >> suspect broken wires...!?! > >> > >> --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, Fernando Zarone > >> <fernandozarone@...> wrote: > >>> > >>> Thank you Mike. > >>> Some progress has been done. > >>> I replaced all of the 1uF electro caps and all of the tantalium > >>> ones (the latter with polystyrene ones) in the TSB1 and 2. > >>> Decoupling caps were added to all of the CMOS ICs. > >>> The problem is still there: last octave (from C5# to C6) exhibit a > >>> working AT, the others no. > >>> News: I checked all of the voltages from the AT sensors of the > >>> keys, all of them are present at the single input pins of the > >>> 4051's corresponding to the single keys, I mean the stronger I > >>> press the key, the higher the voltage comes out, e.g. at the pin 2 > >>> of IC5 /TSB2 when I press C6, pin 5 when B5 etc. This means that > >>> the problem is not before the 4051s. When I check at the sum > >>> terminal (pin 3 of the 4051s) , the voltage is OK in the last 2 > >>> (IC 4 and 5 of TSB2), corresponding to the WORKING last octave) > >>> but it's missing at the other IC's pins 3, as expected. > >>> I thought: the ICs are faulty. No, in that in the TSB2 I swapped > >>> IC 3 with the IC5 (working): the same - last octave keys / IC4 and > >>> IC5 = AT OK, the others no. This means that it cannot be blamed to > >>> faulty ICs! > >>> I would like to understand whether the fault is in both TSBs > >>> (except at the level of the last two ICs of TSB2 - not that > >>> likely...) or somewhere outside, locking these voltages in both > >>> boards... > >>> > >>> I think this is an important clue. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Il giorno 20/apr/2011, alle ore 23.34, Mike ha scritto: > >>> > >>>> I don't understand your question and can't help you until you > >>>> tell me which pins you checked. What pin on the 4051 on the TSB > >>>> boards did you check? I wouldn't even bother trying to > >>>> troubleshoot the aftertouch and velocity unless it was working OK > >>>> before you replaced the 1uf Caps on the TSB1 &TSB2 boards. > >>>> > >>>> It could be a lot of things. I would start by checking Pin 3 of > >>>> the 4051 on the TSB1 & TSB2 boards. Each 4051 on the TSB1 & TSB2 > >>>> boards is responsible for the the aftertouch and velocity for a > >>>> group of notes on the keyboard. Pin three of each 4051 will sum > >>>> the output of whatever notes are playing that the 4051 is > >>>> responsible for. Try playing one note at a time corresponding to > >>>> each of the 4051's and press down to engage the aftertouch. You > >>>> will see the aftertouch voltage for the corresponding note if the > >>>> 4051 is working properly and the N1, N2, N3 lines are working > >>>> properly for the entire keyboard. > >>>> > >>>> -Mike > >>>> > >>>> --- In yamahacs80@yahoogroups.com, Fernando Zarone > >>>> <fernandozarone@> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I replaced ALL of the ICs in the KAS, TKC, SH and ALL of the > >>>>> electrolytic 1uF caps in TSBs. Going to replace the tantalium > >>>>> with polystyrene ones. > >>>>> The Aftertouch and Initial touch only work in the last octave > >>>>> from C5# to C6 . Backwards from C5 to C1, nothing. > >>>>> On the 4051 pins after the key pressure the relative tension > >>>>> raises from 0 - -0,20 to 6 and more, so it should not be a > >>>>> matter of keyboard sensors. > >>>>> Could you please indicate how and where to check, considering > >>>>> that it seems to be a "global" problem. Any specific test? Which > >>>>> boards could be involved? > >>>>> > >>>>> Any help strongly appreciated... > >>>>> > >>>>> F > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Caro Max, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> dopo una delle ultime mie performances (sto sostituendo tutti i > >>>>>> capacitors e ICs e tirando fuori schede) l'AT e initial touch, > >>>>>> con tutte le loro funzioni di pilotaggio, non vanno per nulla > >>>>>> se non nell'ultima ottava, da C5# a C6. > >>>>>> da C5 in gi�, nulla. Inoltre se senti, per es. i Brass, mi > >>>>>> sembra di non sentire l'attack lento. Insomma, ci risiamo. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mi dai qualche idea sulle tensioni da verificare? devo ancora > >>>>>> sostituire molti tantalio (con poliestere) nelle TSB, ma non > >>>>>> credo che la causa siano loro. Si rompevano tutti, in entrambi > >>>>>> i canali? deve essere a monte il problema! Le tensioni dell'AT > >>>>>> dai tasti arrivano ai 4051, da -0,20 a 6V e pi� sui piedini, il > >>>>>> che significa che ... Che significa??? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Aiutami, Max, altrimenti spender� una cifra per spedirla da RL > >>>>>> in England da Mr CS80 per farla rimettere a nuovo! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Grazie, so che lo farai... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> PS mica sei un tecnico? se no te la mandavo subito :-)) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > Andrew Kirkby > (e) kirkbyte@... > (m) 0416 000 070 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Message
Re: [yamahacs80] Re: UPDATE AT and IT problem
2011-04-21 by Fernando Zarone