Xpantastic! group photo

Yahoo Groups archive

Xpantastic!

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:44 UTC

Thread

only one board active

only one board active

2012-07-06 by Terje Winther

Hi all,
Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have  
changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps  
who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so  
now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and  
even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out  
anyway.
The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error  
left:
It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning  
passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and  
the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front  
of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only  
one of the voice cards working properly.
I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the  
two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?

On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that  
there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some,  
and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the  
service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much  
guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.



Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-06 by Karl Schmeer

Hi Terje,

Wow Two M12's :-)

The version of the M12 service manual I have " Bought from Factory long ago" is 
pretty thin on details. 

It's just schematics and a few engineering change orders.
If you have not done so check out the Xpander Service manual. It's in the files 
section of this group.
The calibration procedures for the trimmers you speak of  are in there, as well 
as a detailed 

description of what really goes on during the auto tuning routine.

You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not they will not 
pass the audio signal correctly. 

Actually "the entire board failing tune "points to a more systemic failure. 
Both the VCO and VCF are tuned the same way with the exception that the VCF's 
resonance
 is set to oscillate.  A specific voltage is applied to the individual VCO or 
VCF
and the output  frequency is monitored by the CPU to allow tuning.


I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service)  There is a trimmer 
in that circuit for 

DAC offset calibration. ( The procedure is at the end of the Xpander service 
manual page 34.
Maybe thats all that is wrong :-) 

If not :
There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage ( page 34) If 
this voltage is off spec it could 
cause errors. 
Try swaping  DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed one. Or any 
other parts in the DAC circuit.

There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander service)  
Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an LM311 voltage 
comparator 

which ties to the output of  each voice. 
Something may be amiss here.

Report back after these checks and I will think about it some more.

Best Luck

Karl
 


________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, July 6, 2012 12:30:38 PM
Subject: [xpantastic] only one board active

  
Hi all,
Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have 
changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps 
who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so 
now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and 
even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out 
anyway.
The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error 
left:
It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning 
passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and 
the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front 
of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only 
one of the voice cards working properly.
I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the 
two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?

On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that 
there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some, 
and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the 
service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much 
guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@wintherstormer.no
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: only one board active

2012-07-07 by synthparts

Hi, what rev 3374s and 3372s are in the failing board?

Doug 
synthparts.com

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi all,
> Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have  
> changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps  
> who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so  
> now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and  
> even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out  
> anyway.
> The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error  
> left:
> It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
> Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning  
> passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and  
> the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
> I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front  
> of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only  
> one of the voice cards working properly.
> I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the  
> two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
> Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?
> 
> On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that  
> there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some,  
> and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the  
> service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much  
> guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Terje Winther
> terje.winther@...
> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-09 by Terje Winther

Hi,
Thanks for the feedback.
Good idea to compare with the Xpander service manual, as it is all  
there. I have been though all the procedures now.
> You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
> Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not  
> they will not
> pass the audio signal correctly.
>
Yes, 2.2uF caps with 50VDC rating.
> I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service)  There  
> is a trimmer
>
Checked all the voltages according to the service manual, and they are  
all well within the specs. Some of them almost perfect, but then I  
have done service on the power supply (lots of new parts in the power  
supply). The DAC offset was quite good, but now it is perfect. I did  
the reset again, and those automated test, and they all came out good.  
Still the same error.
> If not :
> There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage  
> ( page 34) If
> this voltage is off spec it could cause errors.
>
There is no trimmer to adjust this, but it is 3.98 and 3.99 on the  
boards, well within the 4V spec.
>  Try swaping  DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed  
> one. Or any
> other parts in the DAC circuit.
>
I have systematically swapped one chip at a time, rebooting and  
checking to see if it made any change. DAC, opamps, logic chips ...   
still the same.
> There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander  
> service)
> Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an  
> LM311 voltage
> comparator
>
Tried swapping it, but still the same.

I suspect there is something wrong in the processor board, now,  
because I found another error as well:
- The top 8 keys do not work.
I originally wrote that off as dirty keys, and planned to do that as  
part of the final cleaning of the synth. But when I did clean the  
keyboard today, the error is still there. I checked the keyboard  
contact board, the lines between keyboard and processor board (the  
parallell cable) and all seems to work properly.


Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] Re: only one board active

2012-07-09 by Terje Winther

Hi, what rev 3374s and 3372s are in the failing board?

VCOs are 8430, and VCF/VCAs are 8534.

Terje



Doug
synthparts.com

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, Terje Winther wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have
> changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps
> who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so
> now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and
> even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out
> anyway.
> The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error
> left:
> It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
>; Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning
> passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and
> the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
> I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front
> of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only
> one of the voice cards working properly.
> I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the
> two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
> Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?
>
> On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that
> there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some,
> and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the
> service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much
> guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.
>
>
>
> Terje Winther
> terje.winther@...
> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>



Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-09 by Do It Yourself Synth

About your keys problem, you may try to swap U63 and U75 on the processor board. The problem may be on the input line of one 4512 chip which may be destroyed. After the swap, check if the problem moved to another group of keys. If not, try to replace U62 then U74. Since I don't know the layout of the keyboard matrix layout, I cannot target the right chip to check.

Kris

Le 9 juil. 2012 à 15:54, Terje Winther a écrit :

Hi,
Thanks for the feedback.
Good idea to compare with the Xpander service manual, as it is all
there. I have been though all the procedures now.
> You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
> Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not
> they will not
> pass the audio signal correctly.
>
Yes, 2.2uF caps with 50VDC rating.
> I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service) There
> is a trimmer
>
Checked all the voltages according to the service manual, and they are
all well within the specs. Some of them almost perfect, but then I
have done service on the power supply (lots of new parts in the power
supply). The DAC offset was quite good, but now it is perfect. I did
the reset again, and those automated test, and they all came out good.
Still the same error.
> If not :
> There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage
>; ( page 34) If
> this voltage is off spec it could cause errors.
>
There is no trimmer to adjust this, but it is 3.98 and 3.99 on the
boards, well within the 4V spec.
> Try swaping DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed
> one. Or any
> other parts in the DAC circuit.
>
I have systematically swapped one chip at a time, rebooting and
checking to see if it made any change. DAC, opamps, logic chips ...
still the same.
> There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander
> service)
> Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an
> LM311 voltage
> comparator
>
Tried swapping it, but still the same.

I suspect there is something wrong in the processor board, now,
because I found another error as well:
- The top 8 keys do not work.
I originally wrote that off as dirty keys, and planned to do that as
part of the final cleaning of the synth. But when I did clean the
keyboard today, the error is still there. I checked the keyboard
contact board, the lines between keyboard and processor board (the
parallell cable) and all seems to work properly.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/


Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-09 by Terje Winther

Thanks!
I swapped the chips around a bit, and now all keys work.
It could well be the wiggling caused by me taking the chips in and out several times that caused this, because no new chips have been introduced.
Kind of gets me thinking....
Should I pull ALL the chips out and in a few times?

Terje



Den 9. juli. 2012 kl. 16.27 skrev Do It Yourself Synth:

About your keys problem, you may try to swap U63 and U75 on the processor board. The problem may be on the input line of one 4512 chip which may be destroyed. After the swap, check if the problem moved to another group of keys. If not, try to replace U62 then U74. Since I don't know the layout of the keyboard matrix layout, I cannot target the right chip to check.


Kris

Le 9 juil. 2012 à 15:54, Terje Winther a écrit :

Hi,
Thanks for the feedback.
Good idea to compare with the Xpander service manual, as it is all
there. I have been though all the procedures now.
> You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
> Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not
> they will not
> pass the audio signal correctly.
>
Yes, 2.2uF caps with 50VDC rating.
> I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service) There
> is a trimmer
>
Checked all the voltages according to the service manual, and they are
all well within the specs. Some of them almost perfect, but then I
have done service on the power supply (lots of new parts in the power
supply). The DAC offset was quite good, but now it is perfect. I did
the reset again, and those automated test, and they all came out good.
Still the same error.
> If not :
> There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage
> ( page 34) If
> this voltage is off spec it could cause errors.
>
There is no trimmer to adjust this, but it is 3.98 and 3.99 on the
boards, well within the 4V spec.
> Try swaping DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed
> one. Or any
> other parts in the DAC circuit.
>
I have systematically swapped one chip at a time, rebooting and
checking to see if it made any change. DAC, opamps, logic chips ...
still the same.
> There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander
> service)
> Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an
> LM311 voltage
> comparator
>
Tried swapping it, but still the same.

I suspect there is something wrong in the processor board, now,
because I found another error as well:
- The top 8 keys do not work.
I originally wrote that off as dirty keys, and planned to do that as
part of the final cleaning of the synth. But when I did clean the
keyboard today, the error is still there. I checked the keyboard
contact board, the lines between keyboard and processor board (the
parallell cable) and all seems to work properly.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@wintherstormer.no
http://www.wintherstormer.no/





Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-09 by Do It Yourself Synth

Great news !

My own opinion is to not touch something which is ok. It may be safer to only touch the components potentially responsible of your problem.

Kris

Le 9 juil. 2012 à 17:30, Terje Winther a écrit :

Thanks!

I swapped the chips around a bit, and now all keys work.
It could well be the wiggling caused by me taking the chips in and out several times that caused this, because no new chips have been introduced.
Kind of gets me thinking....
Should I pull ALL the chips out and in a few times?

Terje



Den 9. juli. 2012 kl. 16.27 skrev Do It Yourself Synth:

About your keys problem, you may try to swap U63 and U75 on the processor board. The problem may be on the input line of one 4512 chip which may be destroyed. After the swap, check if the problem moved to another group of keys. If not, try to replace U62 then U74. Since I don't know the layout of the keyboard matrix layout, I cannot target the right chip to check.


Kris

Le 9 juil. 2012 à 15:54, Terje Winther a écrit :

Hi,
Thanks for the feedback.
Good idea to compare with the Xpander service manual, as it is all
there. I have been though all the procedures now.
> You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
> Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not
> they will not
> pass the audio signal correctly.
>
Yes, 2.2uF caps with 50VDC rating.
> I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service) There
> is a trimmer
>
Checked all the voltages according to the service manual, and they are
all well within the specs. Some of them almost perfect, but then I
have done service on the power supply (lots of new parts in the power
supply). The DAC offset was quite good, but now it is perfect. I did
the reset again, and those automated test, and they all came out good.
Still the same error.
> If not :
> There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage
> ( page 34) If
> this voltage is off spec it could cause errors.
>
There is no trimmer to adjust this, but it is 3.98 and 3.99 on the
boards, well within the 4V spec.
> Try swaping DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed
> one. Or any
> other parts in the DAC circuit.
>
I have systematically swapped one chip at a time, rebooting and
checking to see if it made any change. DAC, opamps, logic chips ...
still the same.
> There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander
> service)
> Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an
> LM311 voltage
> comparator
>
Tried swapping it, but still the same.

I suspect there is something wrong in the processor board, now,
because I found another error as well:
- The top 8 keys do not work.
I originally wrote that off as dirty keys, and planned to do that as
part of the final cleaning of the synth. But when I did clean the
keyboard today, the error is still there. I checked the keyboard
contact board, the lines between keyboard and processor board (the
parallell cable) and all seems to work properly.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/







Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-09 by Do It Yourself Synth

Try to reseat the U921 chip. This timer (8253) is used to test the frequency of VCO and VCF self oscillation. It may be dead too. The best is to test with an oscilloscope on pin 7 while doing an autocheck. You may see a short signal when the CPU test each of the 6 voices.

As Karl said, the problem may be around the U108 (LM311). The problem maybe the C105 capacity. Try to test the continuity between pin 7 of the LM311 and pin 9 of U921 at the opposite side of the board. The LM311 is out of the audio path. It collect the signals from all the 6 voices and send them to an external timer to test frequency (VCO and VCF self oscillation).

Kris

Le 9 juil. 2012 à 15:54, Terje Winther a écrit :

Hi,
Thanks for the feedback.
Good idea to compare with the Xpander service manual, as it is all
there. I have been though all the procedures now.
> You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
> Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not
> they will not
> pass the audio signal correctly.
>
Yes, 2.2uF caps with 50VDC rating.
> I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service) There
> is a trimmer
>
Checked all the voltages according to the service manual, and they are
all well within the specs. Some of them almost perfect, but then I
have done service on the power supply (lots of new parts in the power
supply). The DAC offset was quite good, but now it is perfect. I did
the reset again, and those automated test, and they all came out good.
Still the same error.
> If not :
> There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage
> ( page 34) If
> this voltage is off spec it could cause errors.
>
There is no trimmer to adjust this, but it is 3.98 and 3.99 on the
boards, well within the 4V spec.
> Try swaping DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed
> one. Or any
> other parts in the DAC circuit.
>
I have systematically swapped one chip at a time, rebooting and
checking to see if it made any change. DAC, opamps, logic chips ...
still the same.
> There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander
> service)
> Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an
> LM311 voltage
> comparator
>
Tried swapping it, but still the same.

I suspect there is something wrong in the processor board, now,
because I found another error as well:
- The top 8 keys do not work.
I originally wrote that off as dirty keys, and planned to do that as
part of the final cleaning of the synth. But when I did clean the
keyboard today, the error is still there. I checked the keyboard
contact board, the lines between keyboard and processor board (the
parallell cable) and all seems to work properly.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/


Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-09 by Terje Winther

Very interesting update:
The Matrix-12 is just two Xpander voice board on top of each other, right? So it should be OK to shift which one of the cards who is on top?
Since I was always getting tuning errors on voice 7-12 while voice 1-6 was always right, I thought I could swap position of the voice cards to see what happens.
And guess what: it is still voice 7-12 that gets the error - AFTER the swap. The card that was getting all the errors now works perfectly in tune.

So my conclusion is this:
- Both the voice cards now work as they should.
- There is something wrong on the processor board (or in the connection between the cards: I can check the multicable).

Since I am mostly an analog synth repair guy, I am getting towards my limits if I am about to debug the digital electronics. In my experience though, it is often some logic chips and/or some physical connection (on or off board) that fails. I really hope there is nothing wrong with the processor itself.
It would be nice to get this M-12 completely fixed, as it looks good, and it is now so close, so close to being perfect.

Terje





Den 6. juli. 2012 kl. 20.42 skrev Karl Schmeer:


Hi Terje,

Wow Two M12's :-)

The version of the M12 service manual I have " Bought from Factory long ago" is
pretty thin on details.

It's just schematics and a few engineering change orders.
If you have not done so check out the Xpander Service manual. It's in the files
section of this group.
The calibration procedures for the trimmers you speak of are in there, as well
as a detailed

description of what really goes on during the auto tuning routine.

You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not they will not
pass the audio signal correctly.

Actually "the entire board failing tune "points to a more systemic failure.
Both the VCO and VCF are tuned ;the same way with the exception that the VCF's
resonance
is set to oscillate. A specific voltage is applied to the individual VCO or
VCF
and the output frequency is monitored by the CPU to allow tuning.

I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service) There is a trimmer
in that circuit for

DAC offset calibration. ( The procedure is at the end of the Xpander service
manual page 34.
Maybe thats all that is wrong :-)

If not :
There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage ( page 34) If
this voltage is off spec it could
cause errors.
Try swaping DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed one. Or any
other parts in the DAC circuit.

There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander service)
Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an LM311 voltage
comparator

which ties to the output of each voice.
Something may be amiss here.

Report back after these checks and I will think about it some more.

Best Luck

Karl


________________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, July 6, 2012 12:30:38 PM
Subject: [xpantastic] only one board active


Hi all,
Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have
changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps
who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so
now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and
even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out
anyway.
The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error
left:
It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning
passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and
the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front
of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only
one of the voice cards working properly.
I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the
two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?

On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that
there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some,
and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the
service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much
guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/



Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-09 by Karl Schmeer

Hi Terje,

Great trouble shooting!  
Yes,  do reseat the chips and connectors on the Main processor board. 
This has been a mojor problem with these synths, but the sockets sure make
repairs easy.

BTW
I took photos of the M12 schematics and sent them to Chris this weekend. They 
are large files but very fine resolution.

I have to go back to work right now. 
Chris, could you please forward/send Terje copies if he needs them?

If anyone else needs them, Please drop me a email and I will send them to you. 
They are too big to put on the group files section.
Best Luck 

Karl


_______________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, July 9, 2012 11:19:24 AM
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

  
Very interesting update: 
The Matrix-12 is just two Xpander voice board on top of each other, right? So it 

should be OK to shift which one of the cards who is on top?
Since I was always getting tuning errors on voice 7-12 while voice 1-6 was 
always right, I thought I could swap position of the voice cards to see what 
happens.
And guess what: it is still voice 7-12 that gets the error - AFTER the swap. The 

card that was getting all the errors now works perfectly in tune.

So my conclusion is this:
- Both the voice cards now work as they should.
- There is something wrong on the processor board (or in the connection between 
the cards: I can check the multicable).

Since I am mostly an analog synth repair guy, I am getting towards my limits if 
I am about to debug the digital electronics. In my experience though, it is 
often some logic chips and/or some physical connection (on or off board) that 
fails. I really hope there is nothing wrong with the processor itself.
It would be nice to get this M-12 completely fixed, as it looks good, and it is 
now so close, so close to being perfect.

Terje





Den 6. juli. 2012 kl. 20.42 skrev Karl Schmeer:

  
>
>Hi Terje,
>
>Wow Two M12's :-)
>
>The version of the M12 service manual I have " Bought from Factory long ago" is 


>pretty thin on details. 
>
>It's just schematics and a few engineering change orders.
>If you have not done so check out the Xpander Service manual. It's in the files 


>section of this group.
>The calibration procedures for the trimmers you speak of  are in there, as well 


>as a detailed 
>
>description of what really goes on during the auto tuning routine.
>
>You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
>Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not they will not 
>pass the audio signal correctly. 
>
>Actually "the entire board failing tune "points to a more systemic failure. 
>Both the VCO and VCF are tuned the same way with the exception that the VCF's 
>resonance
> is set to oscillate.  A specific voltage is applied to the individual VCO or 
>VCF
>and the output  frequency is monitored by the CPU to allow tuning.
>
>I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service)  There is a trimmer 


>in that circuit for 
>
>DAC offset calibration. ( The procedure is at the end of the Xpander service 
>manual page 34.
>Maybe thats all that is wrong :-) 
>
>If not :
>There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage ( page 34) If 
>
>
>this voltage is off spec it could 
>cause errors. 
>Try swaping  DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed one. Or any 
>other parts in the DAC circuit.
>
>There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander service)  
>Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an LM311 voltage 
>comparator 
>
>which ties to the output of  each voice. 
>Something may be amiss here.
>
>Report back after these checks and I will think about it some more.
>
>Best Luck
>
>Karl
> 
>
>________________________________
>From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
>To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Fri, July 6, 2012 12:30:38 PM
>Subject: [xpantastic] only one board active
>
>  
>Hi all,
>Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have 
>changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps 
>who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so 
>now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and 
>even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out 
>anyway.
>The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error 
>left:
>It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
>Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning 
>passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and 
>the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
>I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front 
>of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only 
>one of the voice cards working properly.
>I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the 
>two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
>Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?
>
>On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that 
>there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some, 
>and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the 
>service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much 
>guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.
>
>Terje Winther
>terje.winther@...
>http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>
>

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-09 by Christophe JANOT

So you swapped the connectors between the 2 voices boards. We are agree that it was the connectors at the upper right corner, right ? I ask because I don't understand how the swap displaced the problem since there is no tuning specific wires on the connectors. This is a classic CPU bus.

Kris

Envoyé de mon iPad

Le 9 juil. 2012 à 18:19, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> a écrit :
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Very interesting update:
> 
> The Matrix-12 is just two Xpander voice board on top of each other, right? So it should be OK to shift which one of the cards who is on top?
> Since I was always getting tuning errors on voice 7-12 while voice 1-6 was always right, I thought I could swap position of the voice cards to see what happens.
> And guess what: it is still voice 7-12 that gets the error - AFTER the swap. The card that was getting all the errors now works perfectly in tune.
> 
> So my conclusion is this:
> - Both the voice cards now work as they should.
> - There is something wrong on the processor board (or in the connection between the cards: I can check the multicable).
> 
> Since I am mostly an analog synth repair guy, I am getting towards my limits if I am about to debug the digital electronics. In my experience though, it is often some logic chips and/or some physical connection (on or off board) that fails. I really hope there is nothing wrong with the processor itself.
> It would be nice to get this M-12 completely fixed, as it looks good, and it is now so close, so close to being perfect.
> 
> Terje
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Den 6. juli. 2012 kl. 20.42 skrev Karl Schmeer:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hi Terje,
>> 
>> Wow Two M12's :-)
>> 
>> The version of the M12 service manual I have " Bought from Factory long ago" is 
>> pretty thin on details. 
>> 
>> It's just schematics and a few engineering change orders.
>> If you have not done so check out the Xpander Service manual. It's in the files 
>> section of this group.
>> The calibration procedures for the trimmers you speak of  are in there, as well 
>> as a detailed 
>> 
>> description of what really goes on during the auto tuning routine.
>> 
>> You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
>> Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not they will not 
>> pass the audio signal correctly. 
>> 
>> Actually "the entire board failing tune "points to a more systemic failure. 
>> Both the VCO and VCF are tuned the same way with the exception that the VCF's 
>> resonance
>>  is set to oscillate.  A specific voltage is applied to the individual VCO or 
>> VCF
>> and the output  frequency is monitored by the CPU to allow tuning.
>> 
>> I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service)  There is a trimmer 
>> in that circuit for 
>> 
>> DAC offset calibration. ( The procedure is at the end of the Xpander service 
>> manual page 34.
>> Maybe thats all that is wrong :-) 
>> 
>> If not :
>> There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage ( page 34) If 
>> this voltage is off spec it could 
>> cause errors. 
>> Try swaping  DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed one. Or any 
>> other parts in the DAC circuit.
>> 
>> There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander service)  
>> Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an LM311 voltage 
>> comparator 
>> 
>> which ties to the output of  each voice. 
>> Something may be amiss here.
>> 
>> Report back after these checks and I will think about it some more.
>> 
>> Best Luck
>> 
>> Karl
>>  
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
>> To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Fri, July 6, 2012 12:30:38 PM
>> Subject: [xpantastic] only one board active
>> 
>>   
>> Hi all,
>> Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have 
>> changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps 
>> who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so 
>> now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and 
>> even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out 
>> anyway.
>> The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error 
>> left:
>> It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
>> Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning 
>> passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and 
>> the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
>> I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front 
>> of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only 
>> one of the voice cards working properly.
>> I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the 
>> two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
>> Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?
>> 
>> On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that 
>> there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some, 
>> and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the 
>> service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much 
>> guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.
>> 
>> Terje Winther
>> terje.winther@...
>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>> 
> 
> Terje Winther
> terje.winther@...
> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Terje Winther

Hi Karl,
Thank you very much for the photos - very useful.

Terje


Den 9. juli. 2012 kl. 18.56 skrev Karl Schmeer:

Hi Terje,

Great trouble shooting!
Yes, do reseat the chips and connectors on the Main processor board.
This has been a mojor problem with these synths, but the sockets sure make
repairs easy.

BTW
I took photos of the M12 schematics and sent them to Chris this weekend. They
are large files but very fine resolution.

I have to go back to work right now.
Chris, could you please forward/send Terje copies if he needs them?

If anyone else needs them, Please drop me a email and I will send them to you.
They are too big to put on the group files section.
Best Luck

Karl

_______________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, July 9, 2012 11:19:24 AM
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] only one board active


Very interesting update:
The Matrix-12 is just two Xpander voice board on top of each other, right? So it

should be OK to shift which one of the cards who is on top?
Since I was always getting tuning errors on voice 7-12 while voice 1-6 was
always right, I thought I could swap position of the voice cards to see what
happens.
And guess what: it is still voice 7-12 that gets the error - AFTER the swap. The

card that was getting all the errors now works perfectly in tune.

So my conclusion is this:
- Both the voice cards now work as they should.
- There is something wrong on the processor board (or in the connection between
the cards: I can check the multicable).

Since I am mostly an analog synth repair guy, I am getting towards my limits if
I am about to debug the digital electronics. In my experience though, it is
often some logic chips and/or some physical connection (on or off board) that
fails. I really hope there is nothing wrong with the processor itself.
It would be nice to get this M-12 completely fixed, as it looks good, and it is
now so close, so close to being perfect.

Terje

Den 6. juli. 2012 kl. 20.42 skrev Karl Schmeer:


>
>Hi Terje,
>;
>Wow Two M12's :-)
>
>The version of the M12 service manual I have " Bought from Factory long ago" is

>pretty thin on details.
>
>It's just schematics and a few engineering change orders.
>If you have not done so check out the Xpander Service manual. It's in the files

>section of this group.
>The calibration procedures for the trimmers you speak of are in there, as well

>as a detailed
>
>description of what really goes on during the auto tuning routine.
>
>You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
>Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not they will not
>pass the audio signal correctly.
>
>Actually "the entire board failing tune "points to a more systemic failure.
>Both the VCO and VCF are tuned the same way with the exception that the VCF's
>resonance
> is set to oscillate. A specific voltage is applied to the individual VCO or
>VCF
>and the output frequency is monitored by the CPU to allow tuning.
>
>I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service) There is a trimmer

>in that circuit for
>
>DAC offset calibration. ( The procedure is at the end of the Xpander service
>manual page 34.
>Maybe thats all that is wrong :-)
>
>If not :
>There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage ( page 34) If
>;
>
>this voltage is off spec it could
>cause errors.
>Try swaping DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed one. Or any
>other parts in the DAC circuit.
>
>There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander service)
>Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an LM311 voltage
>comparator
>
>which ties to the output of each voice.
>Something may be amiss here.
>
>Report back after these checks and I will think about it some more.
>
>Best Luck
>;
>Karl
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
>To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Fri, July 6, 2012 12:30:38 PM
>Subject: [xpantastic] only one board active
>
>
>Hi all,
>Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have
>changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps
>who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so
>;now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and
>even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out
>anyway.
>The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error
>left:
>It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
>Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning
>passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and
>the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
>I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front
>of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only
>one of the voice cards working properly.
>I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the
>two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
>Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?
>
>On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that
>there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some,
>and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the
>service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much
>guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.
>
>Terje Winther
>terje.winther@wintherstormer.no
>http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>
>

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/



Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Terje Winther

> So you swapped the connectors between the 2 voices boards.

Yes. I had to swap the boards in order to do that, because space is  
limited.

> We are agree that it was the connectors at the upper right corner,  
> right ?

Yes, correct. The flat cable.

> I ask because I don't understand how the swap displaced the problem  
> since there is no tuning specific wires on the connectors. This is a  
> classic CPU bus.

Yes it is, but doesn´t the tuning procedures resides on the processor  
board? If so, there has to be some communication between the processor  
board and the voice cards while doing the tuning.
The M-12 always tells me that the top board fails tuning. If I swap  
the boards, it is still the top board that fails tuning. So depending  
on the position, the voice board either fails, or is perfectly in  
tune. That tells me that there is nothing wrong with the voice boards,  
but I could be mistaken in this.

I have taken out and re-positioned many of the ICs on the processor  
board (I didn´t move the RAM og ROM ICs, because the auto-test told me  
that these were fine), and did notice that some were a bit loose.  
Reseating them all didn´t change anything, though, but I haven´t  
tested if all the ICs are OK.


Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Do It Yourself Synth

The processor board only ask to the voice board to run the procedure. The timing tests are done by the voice board CPU and the 8253 Intel chip. So I had no idea about the origin of the problem.

Kris

Le 10 juil. 2012 à 12:36, Terje Winther a écrit :

> So you swapped the connectors between the 2 voices boards.

Yes. I had to swap the boards in order to do that, because space is
limited.

> We are agree that it was the connectors at the upper right corner,
> right ?

Yes, correct. The flat cable.

>; I ask because I don't understand how the swap displaced the problem
> since there is no tuning specific wires on the connectors. This is a
> classic CPU bus.

Yes it is, but doesn´t the tuning procedures resides on the processor
board? If so, there has to be some communication between the processor
board and the voice cards while doing the tuning.
The M-12 always tells me that the top board fails tuning. If I swap
the boards, it is still the top board that fails tuning. So depending
on the position, the voice board either fails, or is perfectly in
tune. That tells me that there is nothing wrong with the voice boards,
but I could be mistaken in this.

I have taken out and re-positioned many of the ICs on the processor
board (I didn´t move the RAM og ROM ICs, because the auto-test told me
that these were fine), and did notice that some were a bit loose.
Reseating them all didn´t change anything, though, but I haven´t
tested if all the ICs are OK.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/


Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Terje Winther

Aha, thank you, very useful information.
That gave me some ideas of what to check.

Terje


> The processor board only ask to the voice board to run the  
> procedure. The timing tests are done by the voice board CPU and the  
> 8253 Intel chip. So I had no idea about the origin of the problem.
>
>
> Kris




Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Do It Yourself Synth

The problem is that a board swap should not displace the problem... except if you do the mistake to swap the ribbon at the same time.

Kris

Le 10 juil. 2012 à 12:51, Terje Winther a écrit :

Aha, thank you, very useful information.
That gave me some ideas of what to check.

Terje

> The processor board only ask to the voice board to run the
> procedure. The timing tests are done by the voice board CPU and the
> 8253 Intel chip. So I had no idea about the origin of the problem.
>
>
> Kris

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/


Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Terje Winther

> The problem is that a board swap should not displace the problem...  
> except if you do the mistake to swap the ribbon at the same time.
>
No, no: The ribbon cable stayed in the same position, while I swapped  
the boards.
And yes, a board swap should not displace the problem.
So I must probably be looking for something else. I am trying to check  
for anything physically, a ground problem, a short somewhere ...
Does the M-12 has any way to recognize which board is where? I would  
not think so, because it should be possible to put in a voice board  
from another M-12.


Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Do It Yourself Synth

Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the reason :
Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board kept his previous ID.

Kris

Le 10 juil. 2012 à 13:12, Terje Winther a écrit :

> The problem is that a board swap should not displace the problem...
> except if you do the mistake to swap the ribbon at the same time.
>
No, no: The ribbon cable stayed in the same position, while I swapped
the boards.
And yes, a board swap should not displace the problem.
So I must probably be looking for something else. I am trying to check
for anything physically, a ground problem, a short somewhere ...
Does the M-12 has any way to recognize which board is where? I would
not think so, because it should be possible to put in a voice board
from another M-12.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/


Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Terje Winther

> Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice  
> board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the  
> reason :
>
> Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So  
> when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board  
> kept his previous ID.

Dang! That means that there is something wrong with the voice card.
OK, thanks, closer to the problem now.


> __

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Omar Torres

no one is saying that moving the boards 
displaced the problem.You are misreading
his results. Moving the boards resulted
"slot" that handles voices 7-12, regardless 
of which board is connected to this second 
"slot" for voices 7-12.

this is simple guys: if the problem always stays
in the same "slot" (not the same board)
then this means there is some "fixed" path
that that the CPU or controller uses to get
to these "slots", regardless of what board 
is in place. He already proved this by 
swapping the boards and the problem did
not follow the board, it stayed in the same
board "slot"

You need to focus on finding this "fixed" path 
"slot" and thoroughly test that entire path from
the CPU to the point where it communicates
to the voiceboard connected to "slot 2" (voices 7-12)

-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 9, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Christophe JANOT <cjanot@...> wrote:

> So you swapped the connectors between the 2 voices boards. We are agree that it was the connectors at the upper right corner, right ? I ask because I don't understand how the swap displaced the problem since there is no tuning specific wires on the connectors. This is a classic CPU bus.
> 
> Kris
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPad
> 
> Le 9 juil. 2012 à 18:19, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> a écrit :
> 
>>  
>> Very interesting update:
>> 
>> The Matrix-12 is just two Xpander voice board on top of each other, right? So it should be OK to shift which one of the cards who is on top?
>> Since I was always getting tuning errors on voice 7-12 while voice 1-6 was always right, I thought I could swap position of the voice cards to see what happens.
>> And guess what: it is still voice 7-12 that gets the error - AFTER the swap. The card that was getting all the errors now works perfectly in tune.
>> 
>> So my conclusion is this:
>> - Both the voice cards now work as they should.
>> - There is something wrong on the processor board (or in the connection between the cards: I can check the multicable).
>> 
>> Since I am mostly an analog synth repair guy, I am getting towards my limits if I am about to debug the digital electronics. In my experience though, it is often some logic chips and/or some physical connection (on or off board) that fails. I really hope there is nothing wrong with the processor itself.
>> It would be nice to get this M-12 completely fixed, as it looks good, and it is now so close, so close to being perfect.
>> 
>> Terje
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Den 6. juli. 2012 kl. 20.42 skrev Karl Schmeer:
>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Hi Terje,
>>> 
>>> Wow Two M12's :-)
>>> 
>>> The version of the M12 service manual I have " Bought from Factory long ago" is 
>>> pretty thin on details. 
>>> 
>>> It's just schematics and a few engineering change orders.
>>> If you have not done so check out the Xpander Service manual. It's in the files 
>>> section of this group.
>>> The calibration procedures for the trimmers you speak of  are in there, as well 
>>> as a detailed 
>>> 
>>> description of what really goes on during the auto tuning routine.
>>> 
>>> You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
>>> Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not they will not 
>>> pass the audio signal correctly. 
>>> 
>>> Actually "the entire board failing tune "points to a more systemic failure. 
>>> Both the VCO and VCF are tuned the same way with the exception that the VCF's 
>>> resonance
>>>  is set to oscillate.  A specific voltage is applied to the individual VCO or 
>>> VCF
>>> and the output  frequency is monitored by the CPU to allow tuning.
>>> 
>>> I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service)  There is a trimmer 
>>> in that circuit for 
>>> 
>>> DAC offset calibration. ( The procedure is at the end of the Xpander service 
>>> manual page 34.
>>> Maybe thats all that is wrong :-) 
>>> 
>>> If not :
>>> There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage ( page 34) If 
>>> this voltage is off spec it could 
>>> cause errors. 
>>> Try swaping  DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed one. Or any 
>>> other parts in the DAC circuit.
>>> 
>>> There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander service)  
>>> Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an LM311 voltage 
>>> comparator 
>>> 
>>> which ties to the output of  each voice. 
>>> Something may be amiss here.
>>> 
>>> Report back after these checks and I will think about it some more.
>>> 
>>> Best Luck
>>> 
>>> Karl
>>>  
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
>>> To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Fri, July 6, 2012 12:30:38 PM
>>> Subject: [xpantastic] only one board active
>>> 
>>>   
>>> Hi all,
>>> Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have 
>>> changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps 
>>> who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so 
>>> now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and 
>>> even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out 
>>> anyway.
>>> The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error 
>>> left:
>>> It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
>>> Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning 
>>> passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and 
>>> the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
>>> I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front 
>>> of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only 
>>> one of the voice cards working properly.
>>> I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the 
>>> two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
>>> Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?
>>> 
>>> On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that 
>>> there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some, 
>>> and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the 
>>> service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much 
>>> guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.
>>> 
>>> Terje Winther
>>> terje.winther@...
>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>> 
>> 
>> Terje Winther
>> terje.winther@...
>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Terje Winther

Yes, that was my original idea as well. However, both voice cards get the same messages, so I do not know how to seperate the commands. Maybe the voice card IDs do this (the straps on the cards).

Terje


Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 13.46 skrev Omar Torres:


no one is saying that moving the boards
displaced the problem.You are misreading
his results. Moving the boards resulted
"slot" that handles voices 7-12, regardless
of which board is connected to this second
"slot" for voices 7-12.

this is simple guys: if the problem always stays
in the same "slot" (not the same board)
then this means there is some "fixed" path
that that the CPU or controller uses to get
to these "slots", regardless of what board
is in place. He already proved this by
swapping the boards and the problem did
not follow the board, it stayed in the same
board "slot"

You need to focus on finding this "fixed" path
"slot" and thoroughly test that entire path from
the CPU to the point where it communicates
to the voiceboard connected to "slot 2" (voices 7-12)

-omar

---
sent from iPhone

On Jul 9, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Christophe JANOT <cjanot@...> wrote:


So you swapped the connectors between the 2 voices boards. We are agree that it was the connectors at the upper right corner, right ? I ask because I don't understand how the swap displaced the problem since there is no tuning specific wires on the connectors. This is a classic CPU bus.

Kris

Envoyé de mon iPad

Le 9 juil. 2012 à 18:19, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> a écrit :

Very interesting update:

The Matrix-12 is just two Xpander voice board on top of each other, right? So it should be OK to shift which one of the cards who is on top?
Since I was always getting tuning errors on voice 7-12 while voice 1-6 was always right, I thought I could swap position of the voice cards to see what happens.
And guess what: it is still voice 7-12 that gets the error - AFTER the swap. The card that was getting all the errors now works perfectly in tune.

So my conclusion is this:
- Both the voice cards now work as they should.
- There is something wrong on the processor board (or in the connection between the cards: I can check the multicable).

Since I am mostly an analog synth repair guy, I am getting towards my limits if I am about to debug the digital electronics. In my experience though, it is often some logic chips and/or some physical connection (on or off board) that fails. I really hope there is nothing wrong with the processor itself.
It would be nice to get this M-12 completely fixed, as it looks good, and it is now so close, so close to being perfect.

Terje





Den 6. juli. 2012 kl. 20.42 skrev Karl Schmeer:


Hi Terje,

Wow Two M12's :-)

The version of the M12 service manual I have " Bought from Factory long ago" is
pretty thin on details.

It's just schematics and a few engineering change orders.
If you have not done so check out the Xpander Service manual. It's in the files
section of this group.
The calibration procedures for the trimmers you speak of are in there, as well
as a detailed

description of what really goes on during the auto tuning routine.

You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not they will not
pass the audio signal correctly.

Actually "the entire board failing tune "points to a more systemic failure.
Both the VCO and VCF are tuned the same way with the exception that the VCF's
resonance
is set to oscillate. A specific voltage is applied to the individual VCO or
VCF
and the output frequency is monitored by the CPU to allow tuning.

I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service) There is a trimmer
in that circuit for

DAC offset calibration. ( The procedure is at the end of the Xpander service
manual page 34.
Maybe thats all that is wrong :-)

If not :
There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage ( page 34) If
this voltage is off spec it could
cause errors.
Try swaping DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed one. Or any
other parts in the DAC circuit.

There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander service)
Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an LM311 voltage
comparator

which ties to the output of each voice.
Something may be amiss here.

Report back after these checks and I will think about it some more.

Best Luck

Karl


________________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, July 6, 2012 12:30:38 PM
Subject: [xpantastic] only one board active


Hi all,
Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have
changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps
who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so
now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and
even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out
anyway.
The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error
left:
It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning
passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and
the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front
of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only
one of the voice cards working properly.
I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the
two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?

On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that
there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some,
and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the
service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much
guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/








Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Omar Torres

im not convinced yet you have a bad voiceboard

can the Matrix-12 boot and run with only one 
voice-card connected? If so, try each board
individually and see what your results are.


-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 10, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:

>> Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the reason :
>> 
>> Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board kept his previous ID. 
> 
> Dang! That means that there is something wrong with the voice card.
> OK, thanks, closer to the problem now.
> 
> 
>> __
> 
> Terje Winther
> terje.winther@...
> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Do It Yourself Synth

Good idea !

Le 10 juil. 2012 à 13:53, Omar Torres a écrit :


im not convinced yet you have a bad voiceboard

can the Matrix-12 boot and run with only one
voice-card connected? If so, try each board
individually and see what your results are.


-omar

---
sent from iPhone

On Jul 10, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:


Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the reason :

Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board kept his previous ID.

Dang! That means that there is something wrong with the voice card.
OK, thanks, closer to the problem now.


__





Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Omar Torres

so then to me it sounds like you might just have
a bad strap?? :)

try swapping the straps as well...

-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 10, 2012, at 7:53 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:

> Yes, that was my original idea as well. However, both voice cards get the same messages, so I do not know how to seperate the commands. Maybe the voice card IDs do this (the straps on the cards).
> 
> 
> Terje
> 
> 
> Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 13.46 skrev Omar Torres:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> no one is saying that moving the boards 
>> displaced the problem.You are misreading
>> his results. Moving the boards resulted
>> "slot" that handles voices 7-12, regardless 
>> of which board is connected to this second 
>> "slot" for voices 7-12.
>> 
>> this is simple guys: if the problem always stays
>> in the same "slot" (not the same board)
>> then this means there is some "fixed" path
>> that that the CPU or controller uses to get
>> to these "slots", regardless of what board 
>> is in place. He already proved this by 
>> swapping the boards and the problem did
>> not follow the board, it stayed in the same
>> board "slot"
>> 
>> You need to focus on finding this "fixed" path 
>> "slot" and thoroughly test that entire path from
>> the CPU to the point where it communicates
>> to the voiceboard connected to "slot 2" (voices 7-12)
>> 
>> -omar
>> 
>> ---
>> sent from iPhone
>> 
>> On Jul 9, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Christophe JANOT <cjanot@...> wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> So you swapped the connectors between the 2 voices boards. We are agree that it was the connectors at the upper right corner, right ? I ask because I don't understand how the swap displaced the problem since there is no tuning specific wires on the connectors. This is a classic CPU bus.
>>> 
>>> Kris
>>> 
>>> Envoyé de mon iPad
>>> 
>>> Le 9 juil. 2012 à 18:19, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> a écrit :
>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> Very interesting update:
>>>> 
>>>> The Matrix-12 is just two Xpander voice board on top of each other, right? So it should be OK to shift which one of the cards who is on top?
>>>> Since I was always getting tuning errors on voice 7-12 while voice 1-6 was always right, I thought I could swap position of the voice cards to see what happens.
>>>> And guess what: it is still voice 7-12 that gets the error - AFTER the swap. The card that was getting all the errors now works perfectly in tune.
>>>> 
>>>> So my conclusion is this:
>>>> - Both the voice cards now work as they should.
>>>> - There is something wrong on the processor board (or in the connection between the cards: I can check the multicable).
>>>> 
>>>> Since I am mostly an analog synth repair guy, I am getting towards my limits if I am about to debug the digital electronics. In my experience though, it is often some logic chips and/or some physical connection (on or off board) that fails. I really hope there is nothing wrong with the processor itself.
>>>> It would be nice to get this M-12 completely fixed, as it looks good, and it is now so close, so close to being perfect.
>>>> 
>>>> Terje
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Den 6. juli. 2012 kl. 20.42 skrev Karl Schmeer:
>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Terje,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Wow Two M12's :-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> The version of the M12 service manual I have " Bought from Factory long ago" is 
>>>>> pretty thin on details. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's just schematics and a few engineering change orders.
>>>>> If you have not done so check out the Xpander Service manual. It's in the files 
>>>>> section of this group.
>>>>> The calibration procedures for the trimmers you speak of  are in there, as well 
>>>>> as a detailed 
>>>>> 
>>>>> description of what really goes on during the auto tuning routine.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You probably already checked these things but just to be sure:
>>>>> Do the 2.2uF caps that were replaced have a 50VDC rating? If not they will not 
>>>>> pass the audio signal correctly. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Actually "the entire board failing tune "points to a more systemic failure. 
>>>>> Both the VCO and VCF are tuned the same way with the exception that the VCF's 
>>>>> resonance
>>>>>  is set to oscillate.  A specific voltage is applied to the individual VCO or 
>>>>> VCF
>>>>> and the output  frequency is monitored by the CPU to allow tuning.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would start at the DAC circuit ( page 19 xpander service)  There is a trimmer 
>>>>> in that circuit for 
>>>>> 
>>>>> DAC offset calibration. ( The procedure is at the end of the Xpander service 
>>>>> manual page 34.
>>>>> Maybe thats all that is wrong :-) 
>>>>> 
>>>>> If not :
>>>>> There is also a procedure for checking the board reference voltage ( page 34) If 
>>>>> this voltage is off spec it could 
>>>>> cause errors. 
>>>>> Try swaping  DAC's between the "known good board" and your failed one. Or any 
>>>>> other parts in the DAC circuit.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There is a circuit on page 31 (Lower right hand corner in Xpander service)  
>>>>> Which is used in the auto tuning routine. It is built around an LM311 voltage 
>>>>> comparator 
>>>>> 
>>>>> which ties to the output of  each voice. 
>>>>> Something may be amiss here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Report back after these checks and I will think about it some more.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best Luck
>>>>> 
>>>>> Karl
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@wintherstormer.no>
>>>>> To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Sent: Fri, July 6, 2012 12:30:38 PM
>>>>> Subject: [xpantastic] only one board active
>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> Thanks a lot for all the help I have been given on this list. I have 
>>>>> changed parts in the power supply, some CEM chips, all those el.caps 
>>>>> who blocked tuning and sound, swapped some 74 series logic chips (so 
>>>>> now all encoders works), and got new switches and rubber feet, and 
>>>>> even a new key. And of course cleaned it up since all boards were out 
>>>>> anyway.
>>>>> The Matrix-12 is almost all right now - it is just one peculiar error 
>>>>> left:
>>>>> It seems that only one of the voice cards gets the proper commands.
>>>>> Voice 7 - 12 fails tuning of VCOs and VCFs, but all other tuning 
>>>>> passes and there is sound from all 12 voices (if I turn them on) and 
>>>>> the voices are almost in tune, and VCFs seems to work like they should.
>>>>> I also have another Matrix-12 in for service (yes, two M-12s in front 
>>>>> of me - pretty sight!), and it too reportedly have an issue with only 
>>>>> one of the voice cards working properly.
>>>>> I have double-checked the connectors (the paralell connector and the 
>>>>> two 3-4 pin connectors) and they all seems to be fine.
>>>>> Any tips on what to do if one of the voice cards don´t responds?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On another question: While having all the boards out, I noticed that 
>>>>> there are very few manual trimmers on the M-12, but there are some, 
>>>>> and I can´t seem to find any info on how to calibrate them. I have the 
>>>>> service manual, and I find the trimmers there, so I can pretty much 
>>>>> guess what to do, but it would be nice to know for sure.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Terje Winther
>>>>> terje.winther@wintherstormer.no
>>>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Terje Winther
>>>> terje.winther@...
>>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> Terje Winther
> terje.winther@...
> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Terje Winther

The Matrix-12 is smarter than us:
I tried to start with only one voice card connected, but was given an error message, and no sound comes out.

Terje


Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 13.53 skrev Omar Torres:

;

im not convinced yet you have a bad voiceboard

can the Matrix-12 boot and run with only one
voice-card connected? If so, try each board
individually and see what your results are.


-omar

---
sent from iPhone

On Jul 10, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:


Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the reason :

Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board kept his previous ID.

Dang! That means that there is something wrong with the voice card.
OK, thanks, closer to the problem now.


__






Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Christophe JANOT

Try with only the other board.

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 10 juil. 2012 à 14:41, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> a écrit :
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> The Matrix-12 is smarter than us:
> 
> I tried to start with only one voice card connected, but was given an error message, and no sound comes out.
> 
> Terje
> 
> 
> Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 13.53 skrev Omar Torres:
> 
>>  
>> 
>>  im not convinced yet you have a bad voiceboard
>> 
>> can the Matrix-12 boot and run with only one 
>> voice-card connected? If so, try each board
>> individually and see what your results are.
>> 
>> 
>> -omar
>> 
>> ---
>> sent from iPhone
>> 
>> On Jul 10, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>> Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the reason :
>>>> 
>>>> Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board kept his previous ID. 
>>> 
>>> Dang! That means that there is something wrong with the voice card.
>>> OK, thanks, closer to the problem now.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> __
>>> 
>>> Terje Winther
>>> terje.winther@...
>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> Terje Winther
> terje.winther@wintherstormer.no
> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Terje Winther

It has to be two boards, or the error message stops the machine.

Terje


Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 14.45 skrev Christophe JANOT:


Try with only the other board.

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 10 juil. 2012 à 14:41, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> a écrit :

The Matrix-12 is smarter than us:

I tried to start with only one voice card connected, but was given an error message, and no sound comes out.

Terje


Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 13.53 skrev Omar Torres:


im not convinced yet you have a bad voiceboard

can the Matrix-12 boot and run with only one
voice-card connected? If so, try each board
individually and see what your results are.


-omar

---
sent from iPhone

On Jul 10, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:


Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the reason :

Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board kept his previous ID.

Dang! That means that there is something wrong with the voice card.
OK, thanks, closer to the problem now.


__










Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Omar Torres

Ok.

so if this "ID" is set with the strap/cable,
have tried just moving the cable? If moving 
the cable changes the "path" then again its
not your boards and you just have a bad cable! :)

-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 10, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:

> It has to be two boards, or the error message stops the machine.
> 
> 
> Terje
> 
> 
> Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 14.45 skrev Christophe JANOT:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> Try with only the other board.
>> 
>> Envoyé de mon iPhone
>> 
>> Le 10 juil. 2012 à 14:41, Terje Winther <terje.winther@wintherstormer.no> a écrit :
>> 
>>>  
>>> The Matrix-12 is smarter than us:
>>> 
>>> I tried to start with only one voice card connected, but was given an error message, and no sound comes out.
>>> 
>>> Terje
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 13.53 skrev Omar Torres:
>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  im not convinced yet you have a bad voiceboard
>>>> 
>>>> can the Matrix-12 boot and run with only one 
>>>> voice-card connected? If so, try each board
>>>> individually and see what your results are.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -omar
>>>> 
>>>> ---
>>>> sent from iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Jul 10, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the reason :
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board kept his previous ID. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dang! That means that there is something wrong with the voice card.
>>>>> OK, thanks, closer to the problem now.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> __
>>>>> 
>>>>> Terje Winther
>>>>> terje.winther@wintherstormer.no
>>>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Terje Winther
>>> terje.winther@...
>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> Terje Winther
> terje.winther@...
> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Christophe JANOT

Yes you can try to only swap the, but he said previously that the board is producing sounds. So, the cable may be ok.

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 10 juil. 2012 à 16:12, Omar Torres <holografique@...> a écrit :
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Ok.
> 
> so if this "ID" is set with the strap/cable,
> have tried just moving the cable? If moving 
> the cable changes the "path" then again its
> not your boards and you just have a bad cable! :)
> 
> -omar
> 
> ---
> sent from iPhone
> 
> On Jul 10, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:
> 
>>  
>> It has to be two boards, or the error message stops the machine.
>> 
>> 
>> Terje
>> 
>> 
>> Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 14.45 skrev Christophe JANOT:
>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Try with only the other board.
>>> 
>>> Envoyé de mon iPhone
>>> 
>>> Le 10 juil. 2012 à 14:41, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> a écrit :
>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> The Matrix-12 is smarter than us:
>>>> 
>>>> I tried to start with only one voice card connected, but was given an error message, and no sound comes out.
>>>> 
>>>> Terje
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 13.53 skrev Omar Torres:
>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>>  im not convinced yet you have a bad voiceboard
>>>>> 
>>>>> can the Matrix-12 boot and run with only one 
>>>>> voice-card connected? If so, try each board
>>>>> individually and see what your results are.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -omar
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---
>>>>> sent from iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 10, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the reason :
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board kept his previous ID. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dang! That means that there is something wrong with the voice card.
>>>>>> OK, thanks, closer to the problem now.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> __
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Terje Winther
>>>>>> terje.winther@...
>>>>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Terje Winther
>>>> terje.winther@...
>>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> Terje Winther
>> terje.winther@...
>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Omar Torres

but it could be bad enough to cause the
tuning errors. Just because its generating sound
I would not rule it out.

-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 10, 2012, at 10:16 AM, Christophe JANOT <cjanot@...> wrote:

> Yes you can try to only swap the, but he said previously that the board is producing sounds. So, the cable may be ok.
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPhone
> 
> Le 10 juil. 2012 à 16:12, Omar Torres <holografique@...> a écrit :
> 
>>  
>> Ok.
>> 
>> so if this "ID" is set with the strap/cable,
>> have tried just moving the cable? If moving 
>> the cable changes the "path" then again its
>> not your boards and you just have a bad cable! :)
>> 
>> -omar
>> 
>> ---
>> sent from iPhone
>> 
>> On Jul 10, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>>> It has to be two boards, or the error message stops the machine.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Terje
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 14.45 skrev Christophe JANOT:
>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Try with only the other board.
>>>> 
>>>> Envoyé de mon iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> Le 10 juil. 2012 à 14:41, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> a écrit :
>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> The Matrix-12 is smarter than us:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I tried to start with only one voice card connected, but was given an error message, and no sound comes out.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Terje
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 13.53 skrev Omar Torres:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  im not convinced yet you have a bad voiceboard
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> can the Matrix-12 boot and run with only one 
>>>>>> voice-card connected? If so, try each board
>>>>>> individually and see what your results are.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -omar
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> sent from iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the reason :
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board kept his previous ID. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dang! That means that there is something wrong with the voice card.
>>>>>>> OK, thanks, closer to the problem now.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> __
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Terje Winther
>>>>>>> terje.winther@...
>>>>>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Terje Winther
>>>>> terje.winther@...
>>>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Terje Winther
>>> terje.winther@...
>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Omar Torres

at this point its a process of elimination,
working backwards from a known operational
point and ruling out all factors along the way.

-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 10, 2012, at 10:16 AM, Christophe JANOT <cjanot@mac.com> wrote:

> Yes you can try to only swap the, but he said previously that the board is producing sounds. So, the cable may be ok.
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPhone
> 
> Le 10 juil. 2012 à 16:12, Omar Torres <holografique@gmail.com> a écrit :
> 
>>  
>> Ok.
>> 
>> so if this "ID" is set with the strap/cable,
>> have tried just moving the cable? If moving 
>> the cable changes the "path" then again its
>> not your boards and you just have a bad cable! :)
>> 
>> -omar
>> 
>> ---
>> sent from iPhone
>> 
>> On Jul 10, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>>> It has to be two boards, or the error message stops the machine.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Terje
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 14.45 skrev Christophe JANOT:
>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Try with only the other board.
>>>> 
>>>> Envoyé de mon iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> Le 10 juil. 2012 à 14:41, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> a écrit :
>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> The Matrix-12 is smarter than us:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I tried to start with only one voice card connected, but was given an error message, and no sound comes out.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Terje
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 13.53 skrev Omar Torres:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  im not convinced yet you have a bad voiceboard
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> can the Matrix-12 boot and run with only one 
>>>>>> voice-card connected? If so, try each board
>>>>>> individually and see what your results are.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -omar
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> sent from iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Can you send me picture of the top right part of each of the voice board ? I want to see if they do not share the same ID. Here is the reason :
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Each voice board had his own id. This id is set with a strap. So when you swap the board, you didn't swap anything since each board kept his previous ID. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dang! That means that there is something wrong with the voice card.
>>>>>>> OK, thanks, closer to the problem now.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> __
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Terje Winther
>>>>>>> terje.winther@...
>>>>>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Terje Winther
>>>>> terje.winther@...
>>>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Terje Winther
>>> terje.winther@...
>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Terje Winther

> at this point its a process of elimination,
> working backwards from a known operational
> point and ruling out all factors along the way.

Yes, this is what I am trying to do.
There is sound from both voice cards. All 12 voices sound well, and  
after tuning one card is perfect, while the other one is almost in  
tune, but not quite. Some VCOs are off by a few notes, and some VCFs  
are audible different, but not much.
With the scope I can follow all the sound paths, and I can follow the  
sound path of the tuning. All good.
I have also followed all the digital control lines to see what they  
are doing, and they all seem to come through.
I have swapped a lot of ICs between the voice cards, one by one,  
checking to see if there is any change. Still no change.

It seems to me to be a systematic error somewhere that eludes me.
There is a network of 6 sets of DACs around UX06 and UX07, leading  
through a resistor network to UX08 before going to the VCOs, VCF and  
VCA, but there is one set of these for each individual voice, and I  
find it hard to believe the the CV control for all voices would fail  
at the same time. But it is interesting, because the PW and Resonance  
passes tuning each time, and they uses another DAC (U816) that is  
common for all the 6 voices on the voice card.

But as I now have swapped all the ICs in the critical positions  
between the card to no avail, I am not sure what to do next. I could  
shift the position of the ID strap. How many possible position are  
there for that thing? (It is really just a jumper).

BTW: some of the ICs gets fairly hot. I have noticed that in other  
Oberheim synths as well (almost burned myself on a OB-8 once). Is that  
normal? I have checked power many times, so all power supply voltages,  
frequencies and reference internal voltages are correct, and so far I  
have found no short circuits. But still: they are somewhat hot.





Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Omar

your goal is to rule out whether you have a bad board so that you're not wasting time thinking about or attempting to troubleshoot other areas outside of the voiceboards themselves. that's all im saying :)

once you know that you have two good boards, then you can narrow down your focus on areas other than the boards. if you have a bad board, then you can narrow down your focus on the bad board.

but until then, there's no point getting into details until you at least determine that.

-o
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:

> at this point its a process of elimination,
> working backwards from a known operational
> point and ruling out all factors along the way.

Yes, this is what I am trying to do.
There is sound from both voice cards. All 12 voices sound well, and
after tuning one card is perfect, while the other one is almost in
tune, but not quite. Some VCOs are off by a few notes, and some VCFs
are audible different, but not much.
With the scope I can follow all the sound paths, and I can follow the
sound path of the tuning. All good.
I have also followed all the digital control lines to see what they
are doing, and they all seem to come through.
I have swapped a lot of ICs between the voice cards, one by one,
checking to see if there is any change. Still no change.

It seems to me to be a systematic error somewhere that eludes me.
There is a network of 6 sets of DACs around UX06 and UX07, leading
through a resistor network to UX08 before going to the VCOs, VCF and
VCA, but there is one set of these for each individual voice, and I
find it hard to believe the the CV control for all voices would fail
at the same time. But it is interesting, because the PW and Resonance
passes tuning each time, and they uses another DAC (U816) that is
common for all the 6 voices on the voice card.

But as I now have swapped all the ICs in the critical positions
between the card to no avail, I am not sure what to do next. I could
shift the position of the ID strap. How many possible position are
there for that thing? (It is really just a jumper).

BTW: some of the ICs gets fairly hot. I have noticed that in other
Oberheim synths as well (almost burned myself on a OB-8 once). Is that
normal? I have checked power many times, so all power supply voltages,
frequencies and reference internal voltages are correct, and so far I
have found no short circuits. But still: they are somewhat hot.


Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-10 by Terje Winther

Hi Omar,
Good point!
I have been working on it for two full days now, so I am probably a bit bewildered. I will let it rest for a day, get back to it and hopefully discover something the day after tomorrow.
The idea about the jumpers seems like a good place to re-start the debugging. I can reconfigre them and see if there is any change.

Terje



Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 17.17 skrev Omar:

your goal is to rule out whether you have a bad board so that you're not wasting time thinking about or attempting to troubleshoot other areas outside of the voiceboards themselves. that's all im saying :)

once you know that you have two good boards, then you can narrow down your focus on areas other than the boards. if you have a bad board, then you can narrow down your focus on the bad board.

but until then, there's no point getting into details until you at least determine that.

-o


On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:
;

> at this point its a process of elimination,
> working backwards from a known operational
> point and ruling out all factors along the way.

Yes, this is what I am trying to do.
There is sound from both voice cards. All 12 voices sound well, and
after tuning one card is perfect, while the other one is almost in
tune, but not quite. Some VCOs are off by a few notes, and some VCFs
are audible different, but not much.
With the scope I can follow all the sound paths, and I can follow the
sound path of the tuning. All good.
I have also followed all the digital control lines to see what they
are doing, and they all seem to come through.
I have swapped a lot of ICs between the voice cards, one by one,
checking to see if there is any change. Still no change.

It seems to me to be a systematic error somewhere that eludes me.
There is a network of 6 sets of DACs around UX06 and UX07, leading
through a resistor network to UX08 before going to the VCOs, VCF and
VCA, but there is one set of these for each individual voice, and I
find it hard to believe the the CV control for all voices would fail
at the same time. But it is interesting, because the PW and Resonance
passes tuning each time, and they uses another DAC (U816) that is
common for all the 6 voices on the voice card.

But as I now have swapped all the ICs in the critical positions
between the card to no avail, I am not sure what to do next. I could
shift the position of the ID strap. How many possible position are
there for that thing? (It is really just a jumper).

BTW: some of the ICs gets fairly hot. I have noticed that in other
Oberheim synths as well (almost burned myself on a OB-8 once). Is that
normal? I have checked power many times, so all power supply voltages,
frequencies and reference internal voltages are correct, and so far I
have found no short circuits. But still: they are somewhat hot.





Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-11 by -

Terje,
Do you still have the 2nd Matrix 12? Maybe you can try board swapping between them to help narrow the possibilities (for both synths).

I'm also wondering with all of the things that you've tried already, if the problem is cable related, or maybe a ground reference issue. That's just a wild guess though.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:

Hi Omar,

Good point!
I have been working on it for two full days now, so I am probably a bit bewildered. I will let it rest for a day, get back to it and hopefully discover something the day after tomorrow.
The idea about the jumpers seems like a good place to re-start the debugging. I can reconfigre them and see if there is any change.

Terje



Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 17.17 skrev Omar:

your goal is to rule out whether you have a bad board so that you're not wasting time thinking about or attempting to troubleshoot other areas outside of the voiceboards themselves. that's all im saying :)

once you know that you have two good boards, then you can narrow down your focus on areas other than the boards. if you have a bad board, then you can narrow down your focus on the bad board.

but until then, there's no point getting into details until you at least determine that.

-o


On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:

> at this point its a process of elimination,
> working backwards from a known operational
> point and ruling out all factors along the way.

Yes, this is what I am trying to do.
There is sound from both voice cards. All 12 voices sound well, and
after tuning one card is perfect, while the other one is almost in
tune, but not quite. Some VCOs are off by a few notes, and some VCFs
are audible different, but not much.
With the scope I can follow all the sound paths, and I can follow the
sound path of the tuning. All good.
I have also followed all the digital control lines to see what they
are doing, and they all seem to come through.
I have swapped a lot of ICs between the voice cards, one by one,
checking to see if there is any change. Still no change.

It seems to me to be a systematic error somewhere that eludes me.
There is a network of 6 sets of DACs around UX06 and UX07, leading
through a resistor network to UX08 before going to the VCOs, VCF and
VCA, but there is one set of these for each individual voice, and I
find it hard to believe the the CV control for all voices would fail
at the same time. But it is interesting, because the PW and Resonance
passes tuning each time, and they uses another DAC (U816) that is
common for all the 6 voices on the voice card.

But as I now have swapped all the ICs in the critical positions
between the card to no avail, I am not sure what to do next. I could
shift the position of the ID strap. How many possible position are
there for that thing? (It is really just a jumper).

BTW: some of the ICs gets fairly hot. I have noticed that in other
Oberheim synths as well (almost burned myself on a OB-8 once). Is that
normal? I have checked power many times, so all power supply voltages,
frequencies and reference internal voltages are correct, and so far I
have found no short circuits. But still: they are somewhat hot.






Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-11 by Do It Yourself Synth

I read again this thread, and I noticed that some functions passed the test. More interesting, the functions who are failling are all using the TL084 (x08 chip). You can try to reseat or replace one of them. It may be strange that the x08 chips are fried on all boards but...
About the boards swaping between the two M12, I thought about it, but since the other one is ok, it may be nice to kept this one safe no ;-) If you try to swap the board, you may change board ID in order to have two different one. You can only use one of the two first straps position.

Kris

Le 10 juil. 2012 à 22:34, Terje Winther a écrit :

Hi Omar,

Good point!
I have been working on it for two full days now, so I am probably a bit bewildered. I will let it rest for a day, get back to it and hopefully discover something the day after tomorrow.
The idea about the jumpers seems like a good place to re-start the debugging. I can reconfigre them and see if there is any change.

Terje



Den 10. juli. 2012 kl. 17.17 skrev Omar:

your goal is to rule out whether you have a bad board so that you're not wasting time thinking about or attempting to troubleshoot other areas outside of the voiceboards themselves. that's all im saying :)

once you know that you have two good boards, then you can narrow down your focus on areas other than the boards. if you have a bad board, then you can narrow down your focus on the bad board.

but until then, there's no point getting into details until you at least determine that.

-o


On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:

> at this point its a process of elimination,
> working backwards from a known operational
> point and ruling out all factors along the way.

Yes, this is what I am trying to do.
There is sound from both voice cards. All 12 voices sound well, and
after tuning one card is perfect, while the other one is almost in
tune, but not quite. Some VCOs are off by a few notes, and some VCFs
are audible different, but not much.
With the scope I can follow all the sound paths, and I can follow the
sound path of the tuning. All good.
I have also followed all the digital control lines to see what they
are doing, and they all seem to come through.
I have swapped a lot of ICs between the voice cards, one by one,
checking to see if there is any change. Still no change.

It seems to me to be a systematic error somewhere that eludes me.
There is a network of 6 sets of DACs around UX06 and UX07, leading
through a resistor network to UX08 before going to the VCOs, VCF and
VCA, but there is one set of these for each individual voice, and I
find it hard to believe the the CV control for all voices would fail
at the same time. But it is interesting, because the PW and Resonance
passes tuning each time, and they uses another DAC (U816) that is
common for all the 6 voices on the voice card.

But as I now have swapped all the ICs in the critical positions
between the card to no avail, I am not sure what to do next. I could
shift the position of the ID strap. How many possible position are
there for that thing? (It is really just a jumper).

BTW: some of the ICs gets fairly hot. I have noticed that in other
Oberheim synths as well (almost burned myself on a OB-8 once). Is that
normal? I have checked power many times, so all power supply voltages,
frequencies and reference internal voltages are correct, and so far I
have found no short circuits. But still: they are somewhat hot.







Fw: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-12 by Karl Schmeer

Hi Terje,
  
>It seems to me to be a systematic error somewhere that eludes me.
>There is a network of 6 sets of DACs around UX06 and UX07, leading 
>through a resistor network to UX08 before going to the VCOs, VCF and 
>VCA, but there is one set of these for each individual voice, and I 
>find it hard to believe the the CV control for all voices would fail 
>at the same time. But it is interesting, because the PW and Resonance 
>passes tuning each time, and they uses another DAC (U816) that is 
>common for all the 6 voices on the voice card.

These are analog switches which multiplex the master DAC voltages to provide 
individual sample and hold circuits for each parameter in a given voice. The 
resistor and capacitor networks provide a means of holding the CV voltage while 
the multiplexer moves to the next parameter.
Analog switches are notorious for becoming leaky and failing, but if you have 
switched these out and the problem still exsists, then the problem is somewhare 
else.

>But as I now have swapped all the ICs in the critical positions 
>between the card to no avail, I am not sure what to do next. I could 
>shift the position of the ID strap. How many possible position are 
>there for that thing? (It is really just a jumper).

I see the Straps on the voice board schematic below the 6809 CPU 
It appears you will have to move these in order to " switch voice boards"
That looks like the best aproach to isolate the problem to at least 
" which board is failing"

>BTW: some of the ICs gets fairly hot. I have noticed that in other 
>Oberheim synths as well (almost burned myself on a OB-8 once). Is that 
>normal? I have checked power many times, so all power supply voltages, 
>frequencies and reference internal voltages are correct, and so far I 
>have found no short circuits. But still: they are somewhat hot.

These are older technology digital and anlog integrated circuits and they do 
tend to run on the warmer side.
The CPU and memory chips are running at maximum speed so they will run hot. One 
thing to remember is if you place your finger on an IC you are adding heat to 
the circuit and if you hold it there long enough ( more than say 4 secs) the 
chip will heat up.

Unless we are talking about power supply components (ie Voltage regulators), If 
they are burning your finger then yes, it's probably sourcing to much current 
to the next stage it is connected to.

One common trouble shooting technique is to spray "Freeze spray" onto the chips 
one by one until the circuit works.It's an easy way to isolate a heat problem
We can still get this in the US. But not sure about Europe. Usually obtained 
from an electronics supply house.   
Note: Don't spray this on the VCO/VCF chips because thses are temperature 
sensitive, and obviously it would change the tuning.

Re: Fw: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-12 by PeWe


Freeze spray common in europe too.

P.

Am 12.07.2012 08:53, schrieb Karl Schmeer:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd

Hi Terje,
\ufffd

One common trouble shooting technique is to spray\ufffd"Freeze spray" onto the chips
one by one\ufffduntil the circuit works.It's an\ufffdeasy way to isolate a heat problem
We can still get this in the US. But not sure about Europe. Usually obtained
from an electronics supply house.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd
Note: Don't spray this on the VCO/VCF chips because thses are temperature
sensitive, and\ufffdobviously it would change the tuning.



Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-12 by Terje Winther

Hi all,
Thank you very much for all the feedback and the hints of what to do.
After a day´s break from the Matrix-12, I once again got into it with  
renewed energy.
I *might* have found the error, but I am not sure. To recapture:

Today a took both voice cards and swapped positions of the "board ID"  
tag (strap). Earlier there was always voice 7 - 12 who failed, and  
after the swap, voice 1-6 failed.
So there is no doubt now: There is an error on the voice card.

I swapped the straps back to the original positions, and inserted the  
cards and tried a few other options:
- I tried new 4051 ICs at UX06 and UX07 on one of the voices. No change.
- I tried new TL084 at UX08 at one of the voices. No change.
- U108 (LM311) have been swapped. No change.
- I have swapped all critical ICs U812 to U815 with the working voice  
card. No change.
- I have swapped the processor U907 and the timer IC U921 with the  
working voice card. No change.
Voice card two (the upper card) fails on all 6 voices as regard to  
VCOs, VCFs and VCAs. It comes close, but not perfect (off by as much  
as 0,5 - 3 notes).

On the other hand, this is what is working:
- There is sound from all 12 voices (if I override the automatic  
tuning and turn all voices manually on)
- All 12 voices responds to keyboard, levers and such
- All 12 voices change sound according to the stored programs, and  
changes done on the front panel
- All voices pass tuning of PW (Pulse Width) and RES (filter resonance)

So I started backtracking to other ICs, and I might have found the  
error:
U811, the 3140 DAC chip. If I swap this between the voice card with  
tuning error and the working voice card, the tuning error follow the  
chip. Kind of strange, since all other activities also goes through  
that chip, and all other activities work as they should. Moving ICs  
before and after U811 changes nothing, but moving the 3140 DAC makes  
the tuning error move as well.

So I am tempted to borrow a 3140 chip from the other Matrix-12 to see  
if I can have this Matrix-12 completely working. If so, then I have to  
start sourcing a replacement - which seems to be quite difficult.
Any hints appreciated.


Thanks for the feedback on the heat of the ICs. They get somewhat hot,  
but I can touch them without getting burned, so it is probably OK. The  
power supply regulators also get somewhat hot, but the hearsinks seems  
to be able to handle it.



Terje Winther
terje.winther@wintherstormer.no
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-12 by Karl Schmeer

Hi Terje,

It is a long shot, but try reflowing the solder on the socket of the DAC.
Ya might get lucky. 
Best

Karl

________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 12, 2012 10:59:39 AM
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

  
Hi all,
Thank you very much for all the feedback and the hints of what to do.
After a day´s break from the Matrix-12, I once again got into it with 
renewed energy.
I *might* have found the error, but I am not sure. To recapture:

Today a took both voice cards and swapped positions of the "board ID" 
tag (strap). Earlier there was always voice 7 - 12 who failed, and 
after the swap, voice 1-6 failed.
So there is no doubt now: There is an error on the voice card.

I swapped the straps back to the original positions, and inserted the 
cards and tried a few other options:
- I tried new 4051 ICs at UX06 and UX07 on one of the voices. No change.
- I tried new TL084 at UX08 at one of the voices. No change.
- U108 (LM311) have been swapped. No change.
- I have swapped all critical ICs U812 to U815 with the working voice 
card. No change.
- I have swapped the processor U907 and the timer IC U921 with the 
working voice card. No change.
Voice card two (the upper card) fails on all 6 voices as regard to 
VCOs, VCFs and VCAs. It comes close, but not perfect (off by as much 
as 0,5 - 3 notes).

On the other hand, this is what is working:
- There is sound from all 12 voices (if I override the automatic 
tuning and turn all voices manually on)
- All 12 voices responds to keyboard, levers and such
- All 12 voices change sound according to the stored programs, and 
changes done on the front panel
- All voices pass tuning of PW (Pulse Width) and RES (filter resonance)

So I started backtracking to other ICs, and I might have found the 
error:
U811, the 3140 DAC chip. If I swap this between the voice card with 
tuning error and the working voice card, the tuning error follow the 
chip. Kind of strange, since all other activities also goes through 
that chip, and all other activities work as they should. Moving ICs 
before and after U811 changes nothing, but moving the 3140 DAC makes 
the tuning error move as well.

So I am tempted to borrow a 3140 chip from the other Matrix-12 to see 
if I can have this Matrix-12 completely working. If so, then I have to 
start sourcing a replacement - which seems to be quite difficult.
Any hints appreciated.

Thanks for the feedback on the heat of the ICs. They get somewhat hot, 
but I can touch them without getting burned, so it is probably OK. The 
power supply regulators also get somewhat hot, but the hearsinks seems 
to be able to handle it.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@wintherstormer.no
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: only one board active

2012-07-13 by synthparts

I have one of the DAC chips if you need one.
Doug 
synthparts.com

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, Karl Schmeer <shire03@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi Terje,
> 
> It is a long shot, but try reflowing the solder on the socket of the DAC.
> Ya might get lucky. 
> Best
> 
> Karl
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Terje Winther <terje.winther@...>
> To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, July 12, 2012 10:59:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [xpantastic] only one board active
> 
> Â  
> Hi all,
> Thank you very much for all the feedback and the hints of what to do.
> After a day´s break from the Matrix-12, I once again got into it with 
> renewed energy.
> I *might* have found the error, but I am not sure. To recapture:
> 
> Today a took both voice cards and swapped positions of the "board ID" 
> tag (strap). Earlier there was always voice 7 - 12 who failed, and 
> after the swap, voice 1-6 failed.
> So there is no doubt now: There is an error on the voice card.
> 
> I swapped the straps back to the original positions, and inserted the 
> cards and tried a few other options:
> - I tried new 4051 ICs at UX06 and UX07 on one of the voices. No change.
> - I tried new TL084 at UX08 at one of the voices. No change.
> - U108 (LM311) have been swapped. No change.
> - I have swapped all critical ICs U812 to U815 with the working voice 
> card. No change.
> - I have swapped the processor U907 and the timer IC U921 with the 
> working voice card. No change.
> Voice card two (the upper card) fails on all 6 voices as regard to 
> VCOs, VCFs and VCAs. It comes close, but not perfect (off by as much 
> as 0,5 - 3 notes).
> 
> On the other hand, this is what is working:
> - There is sound from all 12 voices (if I override the automatic 
> tuning and turn all voices manually on)
> - All 12 voices responds to keyboard, levers and such
> - All 12 voices change sound according to the stored programs, and 
> changes done on the front panel
> - All voices pass tuning of PW (Pulse Width) and RES (filter resonance)
> 
> So I started backtracking to other ICs, and I might have found the 
> error:
> U811, the 3140 DAC chip. If I swap this between the voice card with 
> tuning error and the working voice card, the tuning error follow the 
> chip. Kind of strange, since all other activities also goes through 
> that chip, and all other activities work as they should. Moving ICs 
> before and after U811 changes nothing, but moving the 3140 DAC makes 
> the tuning error move as well.
> 
> So I am tempted to borrow a 3140 chip from the other Matrix-12 to see 
> if I can have this Matrix-12 completely working. If so, then I have to 
> start sourcing a replacement - which seems to be quite difficult.
> Any hints appreciated.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback on the heat of the ICs. They get somewhat hot, 
> but I can touch them without getting burned, so it is probably OK. The 
> power supply regulators also get somewhat hot, but the hearsinks seems 
> to be able to handle it.
> 
> Terje Winther
> terje.winther@...
> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>

Re: [xpantastic] only one board active

2012-07-14 by Terje Winther

Hi Karl,
> It is a long shot, but try reflowing the solder on the socket of the  
> DAC.
> Ya might get lucky.
>
Yes, familiar technique. Long shot, but I tried it anyway. No change,  
however.
I have ordered a new DAC. Hopefully that will be the last obstacle.


Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-14 by Terje Winther

Thanks to all on this list for the kind help in debugging the Matrix-12.
The kindness and the high level of expertise is really appreciated.
I have learned a lot.

I have also had a little bit of time to play with the Matrix, and I  
can see why many people prefer the Xpander. The Matrix-12 is huge in  
all manners of the word. It is physically big, heavy, and just the  
depth from front of the keys to the rear is staggering. Most other  
analog polysynths are small by comparison. Also, the sound when using  
all 12 keys are almost over the top. I originally thought that having  
an Xpander with "only" 6 voices would be limiting, but now I know that  
used in a musical context, that is plenty. Also: the Xpander do not  
have to boggle with the dual voice cards, the keyboard and all that.  
Thinking about it, I am not really sure I want a Matrix-12, but I must  
say that I am getting really interested in getting myself an Xpander.
My music is typically "old school", and I use a lot of analog modular  
synths, step sequencers and floating pads, and the Xpander would be  
perfect for that kind of music. The depth of modulation is really  
good, and I must say that for once the sale pitch is correct: it is  
almost like a polyphonic modular synth. I don´t know many other analog  
synths that can modulate the VCOs with so many modulators, and have  
the modulators being modulated by something else, that in turn are  
modulated again. Just having two different LFOs for each of the VCOs  
pulse width modulation is already luxury, and when you start using  
several moving modulation patchs into pitch, pulse width and VCF  
cutoff fluxuation, the livelyness of the sound is just beautiful.
Technically I am also quite impressed with the tuning stability (when  
it works...). On the scope I can see how the pitch correction works in  
the first few minutes after power-up, and how it works while I am  
playing. I know how hard it can be to have analog VCOs track over 5  
octaves (I regulary calibrate my own modular VCOs), so yes, I am  
impressed by what this machine can do.

I see on the ´net that an Xpander will easily cost me around 3.000  
dollars, while a Matrix-12 is only marginally more expensive. Hm. I  
will have to do some more repair work before I can even consider  
buying one. So one day, then.



Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-14 by WT

I think the Xpander would be the most useful for you Terje since you use so much CV/Gate stuff already.
Also, the fact that it has separate outs means it can be very useful in a live situation.
WT
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 3:13 PM
Subject: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

Thanks to all on this list for the kind help in debugging the Matrix-12.
The kindness and the high level of expertise is really appreciated.
I have learned a lot.

I have also had a little bit of time to play with the Matrix, and I
can see why many people prefer the Xpander. The Matrix-12 is huge in
all manners of the word. It is physically big, heavy, and just the
depth from front of the keys to the rear is staggering. Most other
analog polysynths are small by comparison. Also, the sound when using
all 12 keys are almost over the top. I originally thought that having
an Xpander with "only" 6 voices would be limiting, but now I know that
used in a musical context, that is plenty. Also: the Xpander do not
have to boggle with the dual voice cards, the keyboard and all that.
Thinking about it, I am not really sure I want a Matrix-12, but I must
say that I am getting really interested in getting myself an Xpander.
My music is typically "old school", and I use a lot of analog modular
synths, step sequencers and floating pads, and the Xpander would be
perfect for that kind of music. The depth of modulation is really
good, and I must say that for once the sale pitch is correct: it is
almost like a polyphonic modular synth. I don´t know many other analog
synths that can modulate the VCOs with so many modulators, and have
the modulators being modulated by something else, that in turn are
modulated again. Just having two different LFOs for each of the VCOs
pulse width modulation is already luxury, and when you start using
several moving modulation patchs into pitch, pulse width and VCF
cutoff fluxuation, the livelyness of the sound is just beautiful.
Technically I am also quite impressed with the tuning stability (when
it works...). On the scope I can see how the pitch correction works in
the first few minutes after power-up, and how it works while I am
playing. I know how hard it can be to have analog VCOs track over 5
octaves (I regulary calibrate my own modular VCOs), so yes, I am
impressed by what this machine can do.

I see on the ´net that an Xpander will easily cost me around 3.000
dollars, while a Matrix-12 is only marginally more expensive. Hm. I
will have to do some more repair work before I can even consider
buying one. So one day, then.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-14 by PeWe

That\ufffds a cool read, Terje !

I love my Xpander since I buyed it as a 1st owner and, surprisingly, it is one of the most reliable analog synthesizers I ever owned incl. my Minimoog D.
While I gave up touring w/ the Minimoog already 2nd half of the 80th, I\ufffdd go on the road w/ the Xpander up today because it didn\ufffdt need service much within 24 years.
I only had to replace a CEM signal generator many years ago and now a few tact switches need replacement too.

I collected all kinds of parts for refubishing my Xpander and it will be done somewhere this year even it plays like the 1st day.
In fact, it was in the hands of roadies twice a year for many weeks, traveled in trucks and planes, in the cold and in the heat and it never failed in a studio or on a stage.
It\ufffds a super reliable piece of gear and also my VFD displays shine bright up to now.
The smaller form factor of the Xpander makes it more reliable than the Matrix-12 because the case of the Matrix-12 isn\ufffdt the most stiff and stable one.
Circuit boards bend on transport.

I shortly aquired a Oberheim XK, already w/ a better PSU and chips in sockets, which now waits for tact switches replacement since I\ufffdve found the switches.
I\ufffdve connected it to the Xpander and, yes,- the behaviour of that keyboard is perfect for the Xpander so I can say, both offer what the Xpander lacks,- the action, the levers and a arpeggiator I had in my Oberheim OB-8.

The 6 voices are enough for any music, even 4 voices in a Oberheim 4-voice were enough to play any chord we know in the diatonic system.

The modulation page in the Matrix-12 offers better overview for modulation sources and destinations, that\ufffds true, but I can live without it.
The detune page is another story,- but my workaround is a good analogue stereo modulation device offering fat chorus for these sounds.
P.ex. a old Rocktron Prochorus is a 6 voice analogue tap delay in 1st order and these taps are modulated by a LFO.
There\ufffds a feedback circuit too for the flanging type stuff,- but the best is, you can place each of the taps to left, right or center individually in the stereo field.
So, when using the Xpander voice panning in addition,- the result is pretty similar to what comes out of a Matrix-12, the voiceboards stacked and detuned.
Can also be done w/ digital multi FX units like a Digitech Studio 400 or similar.

Don\ufffdt underrate you\ufffdd get CV/GATE inputs for each voice in a Xpander and w/ the Matrix-12 you won\ufffdt.
Owning the Minimoog featured w/ CV/GATE outputs, is breeze to link 1 voice of the Xpander to the Minimoog\ufffds keyboard and plying w/ sounds which were formerly created w/ a Minimoog and a Oberheim SEM module.

And there are the single outputs for each voice you\ufffdd need a hardware option for the Matrix-12 if you want that.

best

PeWe


Am 14.07.2012 15:13, schrieb Terje Winther:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd

Thanks to all on this list for the kind help in debugging the Matrix-12.
The kindness and the high level of expertise is really appreciated.
I have learned a lot.

I have also had a little bit of time to play with the Matrix, and I
can see why many people prefer the Xpander. The Matrix-12 is huge in
all manners of the word. It is physically big, heavy, and just the
depth from front of the keys to the rear is staggering. Most other
analog polysynths are small by comparison. Also, the sound when using
all 12 keys are almost over the top. I originally thought that having
an Xpander with "only" 6 voices would be limiting, but now I know that
used in a musical context, that is plenty. Also: the Xpander do not
have to boggle with the dual voice cards, the keyboard and all that.
Thinking about it, I am not really sure I want a Matrix-12, but I must
say that I am getting really interested in getting myself an Xpander.
My music is typically "old school", and I use a lot of analog modular
synths, step sequencers and floating pads, and the Xpander would be
perfect for that kind of music. The depth of modulation is really
good, and I must say that for once the sale pitch is correct: it is
almost like a polyphonic modular synth. I don\ufffdt know many other analog
synths that can modulate the VCOs with so many modulators, and have
the modulators being modulated by something else, that in turn are
modulated again. Just having two different LFOs for each of the VCOs
pulse width modulation is already luxury, and when you start using
several moving modulation patchs into pitch, pulse width and VCF
cutoff fluxuation, the livelyness of the sound is just beautiful.
Technically I am also quite impressed with the tuning stability (when
it works...). On the scope I can see how the pitch correction works in
the first few minutes after power-up, and how it works while I am
playing. I know how hard it can be to have analog VCOs track over 5
octaves (I regulary calibrate my own modular VCOs), so yes, I am
impressed by what this machine can do.

I see on the \ufffdnet that an Xpander will easily cost me around 3.000
dollars, while a Matrix-12 is only marginally more expensive. Hm. I
will have to do some more repair work before I can even consider
buying one. So one day, then.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/



Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-15 by Terje Winther

Thanks!
Very interesting to read about the Xpander. The seperate outputs and CV/gate pr. voice input is very intriguing for me. I can see a lot of uses for that in my modular setup, as well as an extension for my minimoog. And of course for great polyphonic chords. I already have a MIDI master keyboard and one of those Roland CV keyboards, and I am building myself a polyphonic MICI-CV controller, so the possible uses are endless.
Having a master keyboard with an arpeggiator seems like a good idea. I mostly rely on analog step sequencers, and since they can interface directly with the Xpander, that would be a lot of creative fun. Two of the moog modular sequencers equals 6 rows of notes, the same as the Xpander inputs. Seems to be a perfect match!

I see the occasional Xpander for sale here and there, but noticed in several ads a reference to various versions of the Xpander. I tried to find more info regarding this, but all I could find was details about different versions of the internal ROM chips for voices, cassette interface and frontpanel (?) It may be that the various "versions" they are refering to are 110V and 220V versions, or are Japanese, European and American Xpanders different? It seems to be the same voice cards on all of them.

One last question: is there a monophonic alternative on the Matrix-12, where all 24 VCOs are played monophonically in unison?


Terje



Den 14. juli. 2012 kl. 16.06 skrev PeWe:


That´s a cool read, Terje !

I love my Xpander since I buyed it as a 1st owner and, surprisingly, it is one of the most reliable analog synthesizers I ever owned incl. my Minimoog D.
While I gave up touring w/ the Minimoog already 2nd half of the 80th, I´d go on the road w/ the Xpander up today because it didn´t need service much within 24 years.
I only had to replace a CEM signal generator many years ago and now a few tact switches need replacement too.

I collected all kinds of parts for refubishing my Xpander and it will be done somewhere this year even it plays like the 1st day.
In fact, it was in the hands of roadies twice a year for many weeks, traveled in trucks and planes, in the cold and in the heat and it never failed in a studio or on a stage.
It´s a super reliable piece of gear and also my VFD displays shine bright up to now.
The smaller form factor of the Xpander makes it more reliable than the Matrix-12 because the case of the Matrix-12 isn´t the most stiff and stable one.
Circuit boards bend on transport.

I shortly aquired a Oberheim XK, already w/ a better PSU and chips in sockets, which now waits for tact switches replacement since I´ve found the switches.
I´ve connected it to the Xpander and, yes,- the behaviour of that keyboard is perfect for the Xpander so I can say, both offer what the Xpander lacks,- the action, the levers and a arpeggiator I had in my Oberheim OB-8.

The 6 voices are enough for any music, even 4 voices in a Oberheim 4-voice were enough to play any chord we know in the diatonic system.

The modulation page in the Matrix-12 offers better overview for modulation sources and destinations, that´s true, but I can live without it.
The detune page is another story,- but my workaround is a good analogue stereo modulation device offering fat chorus for these sounds.
P.ex. a old Rocktron Prochorus is a 6 voice analogue tap delay in 1st order and these taps are modulated by a LFO.
There´s a feedback circuit too for the flanging type stuff,- but the best is, you can place each of the taps to left, right or center individually in the stereo field.
So, when using the Xpander voice panning in addition,- the result is pretty similar to what comes out of a Matrix-12, the voiceboards stacked and detuned.
Can also be done w/ digital multi FX units like a Digitech Studio 400 or similar.

Don´t underrate you´d get CV/GATE inputs for each voice in a Xpander and w/ the Matrix-12 you won´t.
Owning the Minimoog featured w/ CV/GATE outputs, is breeze to link 1 voice of the Xpander to the Minimoog´s keyboard and plying w/ sounds which were formerly created w/ a Minimoog and a Oberheim SEM module.

And there are the single outputs for each voice you´d need a hardware option for the Matrix-12 if you want that.

best

PeWe


Am 14.07.2012 15:13, schrieb Terje Winther:

Thanks to all on this list for the kind help in debugging the Matrix-12.
The kindness and the high level of expertise is really appreciated.
I have learned a lot.

I have also had a little bit of time to play with the Matrix, and I
can see why many people prefer the Xpander. The Matrix-12 is huge in
all manners of the word. It is physically big, heavy, and just the
depth from front of the keys to the rear is staggering. Most other
analog polysynths are small by comparison. Also, the sound when using
all 12 keys are almost over the top. I originally thought that having
an Xpander with "only" 6 voices would be limiting, but now I know that
used in a musical context, that is plenty. Also: the Xpander do not
have to boggle with the dual voice cards, the keyboard and all that.
Thinking about it, I am not really sure I want a Matrix-12, but I must
say that I am getting really interested in getting myself an Xpander.
My music is typically "old school", and I use a lot of analog modular
synths, step sequencers and floating pads, and the Xpander would be
perfect for that kind of music. The depth of modulation is really
good, and I must say that for once the sale pitch is correct: it is
almost like a polyphonic modular synth. I don´t know many other analog
synths that can modulate the VCOs with so many modulators, and have
the modulators being modulated by something else, that in turn are
modulated again. Just having two different LFOs for each of the VCOs
pulse width modulation is already luxury, and when you start using
several moving modulation patchs into pitch, pulse width and VCF
cutoff fluxuation, the livelyness of the sound is just beautiful.
Technically I am also quite impressed with the tuning stability (when
it works...). On the scope I can see how the pitch correction works in
the first few minutes after power-up, and how it works while I am
playing. I know how hard it can be to have analog VCOs track over 5
octaves (I regulary calibrate my own modular VCOs), so yes, I am
impressed by what this machine can do.

I see on the ´net that an Xpander will easily cost me around 3.000
dollars, while a Matrix-12 is only marginally more expensive. Hm. I
will have to do some more repair work before I can even consider
buying one. So one day, then.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/






Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-15 by Omar Torres

there are American manf units and
Japanese manf units.

It's my understanding that the Japanese 
ones are more prone to build quality issues.
But I cant confirm that myself.

And yes, to play all voices in monophonic
you just need to set your main zone to "unison"
mode. there is uni-high, uni-low, and uni-reset modes

-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 15, 2012, at 11:28 AM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@...> wrote:

> Thanks!
> 
> Very interesting to read about the Xpander. The seperate outputs and CV/gate pr. voice input is very intriguing for me. I can see a lot of uses for that in my modular setup, as well as an extension for my minimoog. And of course for great polyphonic chords. I already have a MIDI master keyboard and one of those Roland CV keyboards, and I am building myself a polyphonic MICI-CV controller, so the possible uses are endless.
> Having a master keyboard with an arpeggiator seems like a good idea. I mostly rely on analog step sequencers, and since they can interface directly with the Xpander, that would be a lot of creative fun. Two of the moog modular sequencers equals 6 rows of notes, the same as the Xpander inputs. Seems to be a perfect match!
> 
> I see the occasional Xpander for sale here and there, but noticed in several ads a reference to various versions of the Xpander. I tried to find more info regarding this, but all I could find was details about different versions of the internal ROM chips for voices, cassette interface and frontpanel (?) It may be that the various "versions" they are refering to are 110V and 220V versions, or are Japanese, European and American Xpanders different? It seems to be the same voice cards on all of them.
> 
> One last question: is there a monophonic alternative on the Matrix-12, where all 24 VCOs are played monophonically in unison?
> 
> 
> Terje
> 
> 
> 
> Den 14. juli. 2012 kl. 16.06 skrev PeWe:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> That´s a cool read, Terje !
>> 
>> I love my Xpander since I buyed it as a 1st owner and, surprisingly, it is one of the most reliable analog synthesizers I ever owned incl. my Minimoog D.
>> While I gave up touring w/ the Minimoog already 2nd half of the 80th, I´d go on the road w/ the Xpander up today because it didn´t need service much within 24 years.
>> I only had to replace a CEM signal generator many years ago and now a few tact switches need replacement too.
>> 
>> I collected all kinds of parts for refubishing my Xpander and it will be done somewhere this year even it plays like the 1st day.
>> In fact, it was in the hands of roadies twice a year for many weeks, traveled in trucks and planes, in the cold and in the heat and it never failed in a studio or on a stage.
>> It´s a super reliable piece of gear and also my VFD displays shine bright up to now.
>> The smaller form factor of the Xpander makes it more reliable than the Matrix-12 because the case of the Matrix-12 isn´t the most stiff and stable one.
>> Circuit boards bend on transport.
>> 
>> I shortly aquired a Oberheim XK, already w/ a better PSU and chips in sockets, which now waits for tact switches replacement since I´ve found the switches.
>> I´ve connected it to the Xpander and, yes,- the behaviour of that keyboard is perfect for the Xpander so I can say, both offer what the Xpander lacks,- the action, the levers and a arpeggiator I had in my Oberheim OB-8.
>> 
>> The 6 voices are enough for any music, even 4 voices in a Oberheim 4-voice were enough to play any chord we know in the diatonic system.
>> 
>> The modulation page in the Matrix-12 offers better overview for modulation sources and destinations, that´s true, but I can live without it.
>> The detune page is another story,- but my workaround is a good analogue stereo modulation device offering fat chorus for these sounds.
>> P.ex. a old Rocktron Prochorus is a 6 voice analogue tap delay in 1st order and these taps are modulated by a LFO.
>> There´s a feedback circuit too for the flanging type stuff,- but the best is, you can place each of the taps to left, right or center individually in the stereo field.
>> So, when using the Xpander voice panning in addition,- the result is pretty similar to what comes out of a Matrix-12, the voiceboards stacked and detuned.
>> Can also be done w/ digital multi FX units like a Digitech Studio 400 or similar.
>> 
>> Don´t underrate you´d get CV/GATE inputs for each voice in a Xpander and w/ the Matrix-12 you won´t.
>> Owning the Minimoog featured w/ CV/GATE outputs, is breeze to link 1 voice of the Xpander to the Minimoog´s keyboard and plying w/ sounds which were formerly created w/ a Minimoog and a Oberheim SEM module.
>> 
>> And there are the single outputs for each voice you´d need a hardware option for the Matrix-12 if you want that.
>> 
>> best
>> 
>> PeWe
>> 
>> 
>> Am 14.07.2012 15:13, schrieb Terje Winther:
>>>  
>>> Thanks to all on this list for the kind help in debugging the Matrix-12.
>>> The kindness and the high level of expertise is really appreciated.
>>> I have learned a lot.
>>> 
>>> I have also had a little bit of time to play with the Matrix, and I 
>>> can see why many people prefer the Xpander. The Matrix-12 is huge in 
>>> all manners of the word. It is physically big, heavy, and just the 
>>> depth from front of the keys to the rear is staggering. Most other 
>>> analog polysynths are small by comparison. Also, the sound when using 
>>> all 12 keys are almost over the top. I originally thought that having 
>>> an Xpander with "only" 6 voices would be limiting, but now I know that 
>>> used in a musical context, that is plenty. Also: the Xpander do not 
>>> have to boggle with the dual voice cards, the keyboard and all that. 
>>> Thinking about it, I am not really sure I want a Matrix-12, but I must 
>>> say that I am getting really interested in getting myself an Xpander.
>>> My music is typically "old school", and I use a lot of analog modular 
>>> synths, step sequencers and floating pads, and the Xpander would be 
>>> perfect for that kind of music. The depth of modulation is really 
>>> good, and I must say that for once the sale pitch is correct: it is 
>>> almost like a polyphonic modular synth. I don´t know many other analog 
>>> synths that can modulate the VCOs with so many modulators, and have 
>>> the modulators being modulated by something else, that in turn are 
>>> modulated again. Just having two different LFOs for each of the VCOs 
>>> pulse width modulation is already luxury, and when you start using 
>>> several moving modulation patchs into pitch, pulse width and VCF 
>>> cutoff fluxuation, the livelyness of the sound is just beautiful.
>>> Technically I am also quite impressed with the tuning stability (when 
>>> it works...). On the scope I can see how the pitch correction works in 
>>> the first few minutes after power-up, and how it works while I am 
>>> playing. I know how hard it can be to have analog VCOs track over 5 
>>> octaves (I regulary calibrate my own modular VCOs), so yes, I am 
>>> impressed by what this machine can do.
>>> 
>>> I see on the ´net that an Xpander will easily cost me around 3.000 
>>> dollars, while a Matrix-12 is only marginally more expensive. Hm. I 
>>> will have to do some more repair work before I can even consider 
>>> buying one. So one day, then.
>>> 
>>> Terje Winther
>>> terje.winther@...
>>> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> Terje Winther
> terje.winther@...
> http://www.wintherstormer.no/
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by Terje Winther

> there are American manf units and
> Japanese manf units.
>
> It's my understanding that the Japanese
> ones are more prone to build quality issues.
> But I cant confirm that myself.

All right, thank you, very useful information. So just two hardwave  
versions, then. That should be easy. I notice that all Xpanders for  
sale these days are Japanese versions.

> And yes, to play all voices in monophonic
> you just need to set your main zone to "unison"
> mode. there is uni-high, uni-low, and uni-reset modes

Great, thanks! Will try that as soon as I get the new DAC.

__

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by PeWe


>>>

Am 15.07.2012 17:28, schrieb Terje Winther:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd

Thanks!


:-)

Very interesting to read about the Xpander. The seperate outputs and CV/gate pr. voice input is very intriguing for me. I can see a lot of uses for that in my modular setup, as well as an extension for my minimoog. And of course for great polyphonic chords. I already have a MIDI master keyboard and one of those Roland CV keyboards, and I am building myself a polyphonic MICI-CV controller, so the possible uses are endless.
Having a master keyboard with an arpeggiator seems like a good idea. I mostly rely on analog step sequencers, and since they can interface directly with the Xpander, that would be a lot of creative fun. Two of the moog modular sequencers equals 6 rows of notes, the same as the Xpander inputs. Seems to be a perfect match!

Also have in mind,- exactly like w/ a Matrix-12, in Multi-Patch Mode, there\ufffds the option die fine which voicees will be triggered by CV/Gate and which over MIDI.
So, cable connections can be permanent and you decide by creating patches.

As a polyphonic MIDI CV/ interface,- I use the trusty vintage Roland MPU-101 which never failed here since I buyed it new,- but 4 voices only.


I see the occasional Xpander for sale here and there, but noticed in several ads a reference to various versions of the Xpander.

US and japanese versions.
There were also early US versions w/ a 24dB low pass filter only and later ones were w/ multi moder filter.
I\ufffdd say most US XPanders are w/ multimode filters.

BEWARE of the japanese models,- completely differen PSU and voice board design,- not reliable units !

I tried to find more info regarding this, but all I could find was details about different versions of the internal ROM chips for voices, cassette interface and frontpanel (?) It may be that the various "versions" they are refering to are 110V and 220V versions, or are Japanese, European and American Xpanders different? It seems to be the same voice cards on all of them.

See above.
ROM chip version can be upgraded to the very last versions if you have a Eprom burner handling the Eproms used in the Matrix-12/Xpander.
The images are still available.


One last question: is there a monophonic alternative on the Matrix-12, where all 24 VCOs are played monophonically in unison?

Well, each patch used in a slot of a Multi Patch can be set to unison/mono,- so it\ufffds practically 6 monophonic synths in a Xpander.
These "synths" together can be played in unison on the smae MIDI channel too in a multi patch,- or each one monophonic on different MIDI channels,- or any mix of key assignment modes.
The kay assignement modes in multi patch mode are similar to the old 4 - an 8-voice Oberheims composed from SEM modules.
With the Matrix-12 you have the detune page, w/ the Xpander you won\ufffdt.
There\ufffds the workaround copying the same patch to different single-patch memory slots and fine-tune the OSCs differently, then store again.
Then, if you put \ufffdem into multi patch slots and set \ufffdem to unison,- that\ufffds it for all 6 voices in the Xpander in munison/mono and detuned.

I don\ufffdt know what the difference w/ the Matrix-12 and the 2nd voice board is though ...



Terje

PeWe

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by Omar Torres

unison does not require multi-mode.

all you have to do is assign all 6 voices to
the same zone (in this case zone 1) and then
set zone 1 to one of the unison modes instead
of rotate or reset mode

much easier than having to mess with multi-mode.

-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 16, 2012, at 12:32 PM, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:

> 
> >>>
> 
> Am 15.07.2012 17:28, schrieb Terje Winther:
>>  
>> Thanks!
>> 
> 
> :-)
> 
>> Very interesting to read about the Xpander. The seperate outputs and CV/gate pr. voice input is very intriguing for me. I can see a lot of uses for that in my modular setup, as well as an extension for my minimoog. And of course for great polyphonic chords. I already have a MIDI master keyboard and one of those Roland CV keyboards, and I am building myself a polyphonic MICI-CV controller, so the possible uses are endless.
>> Having a master keyboard with an arpeggiator seems like a good idea. I mostly rely on analog step sequencers, and since they can interface directly with the Xpander, that would be a lot of creative fun. Two of the moog modular sequencers equals 6 rows of notes, the same as the Xpander inputs. Seems to be a perfect match!
> 
> Also have in mind,- exactly like w/ a Matrix-12, in Multi-Patch Mode, there´s the option die fine which voicees will be triggered by CV/Gate and which over MIDI.
> So, cable connections can be permanent and you decide by creating patches.
> 
> As a polyphonic MIDI CV/ interface,- I use the trusty vintage Roland MPU-101 which never failed here since I buyed it new,- but 4 voices only.
> 
>> 
>> I see the occasional Xpander for sale here and there, but noticed in several ads a reference to various versions of the Xpander.
> 
> US and japanese versions.
> There were also early US versions w/ a 24dB low pass filter only and later ones were w/ multi moder filter.
> I´d say most US XPanders are w/ multimode filters.
> 
> BEWARE of the japanese models,- completely differen PSU and voice board design,- not reliable units !
> 
>> I tried to find more info regarding this, but all I could find was details about different versions of the internal ROM chips for voices, cassette interface and frontpanel (?) It may be that the various "versions" they are refering to are 110V and 220V versions, or are Japanese, European and American Xpanders different? It seems to be the same voice cards on all of them.
> 
> See above.
> ROM chip version can be upgraded to the very last versions if you have a Eprom burner handling the Eproms used in the Matrix-12/Xpander.
> The images are still available.
> 
>> 
>> One last question: is there a monophonic alternative on the Matrix-12, where all 24 VCOs are played monophonically in unison?
> 
> Well, each patch used in a slot of a Multi Patch can be set to unison/mono,- so it´s practically 6 monophonic synths in a Xpander.
> These "synths" together can be played in unison on the smae MIDI channel too in a multi patch,- or each one monophonic on different MIDI channels,- or any mix of key assignment modes.
> The kay assignement modes in multi patch mode are similar to the old 4 - an 8-voice Oberheims composed from SEM modules.
> With the Matrix-12 you have the detune page, w/ the Xpander you won´t.
> There´s the workaround copying the same patch to different single-patch memory slots and fine-tune the OSCs differently, then store again.
> Then, if you put ´em into multi patch slots and set ´em to unison,- that´s it for all 6 voices in the Xpander in munison/mono and detuned.
> 
> I don´t know what the difference w/ the Matrix-12 and the 2nd voice board is though ...
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Terje
> 
> PeWe
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by PeWe


Ah, yes.
Typed form my head here and you\ufffdre right !

Am 16.07.2012 18:36, schrieb Omar Torres:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd
unison does not require multi-mode.

all you have to do is assign all 6 voices to
the same zone (in this case zone 1) and then
set zone 1 to one of the unison modes instead
of rotate or reset mode

much easier than having to mess with multi-mode.

-omar


Fw: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by Karl Schmeer

Hi All,

>unison does not require multi-mode.
>all you have to do is assign all 6 voices to
>the same zone (in this case zone 1) and then
>set zone 1 to one of the unison modes instead
>of rotate or reset mode
>much easier than having to mess with multi-mode.

-omar

This is true. You can set all the zone stuff up ( globaly) in the master page 
section, however these settings are not output with a patch dump. 
Patch dumps only send single patch and multi patch settings, none of the master
stuff.

>don´t know what the difference w/ the Matrix-12 and the 2nd voice board is 
>though ...

AFAIK The Matrix 12 works the same way as the Xpander. You can assign 
any number of voices ( up to 12 )  to one of the 6 Zones.  

> M12 - Xpander Comparison

I have owned a M12 for a long time. I find the modulation List a great thing, 
but I don't see the detune as that much of an advantage, unless 
you just gotta have a "Hover" type sound.
Often I have adjusted the detunes to what I think is a perfect sound, only to 
reset them all to 0 once I play the sound with a band or midi sequence context . 



Best 

Karl

Re: Fw: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by PeWe

Hi Karl !

All I can say is, I don\ufffdt have much use for the "all OSCs in unison-detuned" sound.

I\ufffdm absolutely not into that techno supersaw thingy !

So,- Hoover is the right term and if I\ufffdd urently need it,- I\ufffdd get it from all kind of VST stuff or such.

Well, all just a matter of taste though.

:-D

PeWe


Am 16.07.2012 19:32, schrieb Karl Schmeer:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd


Hi All,

>unison does not require multi-mode.
>all you have to do is assign all 6 voices to
>the same zone (in this case zone 1) and then
>set zone 1 to one of the unison modes instead
>of rotate or reset mode
>much easier than having to mess with multi-mode.

-omar

This is true. You can set all the\ufffdzone stuff up ( globaly) in the master page
section, however these settings are not\ufffdoutput with a patch dump.\ufffd
Patch dumps only send single patch and multi patch settings, none of the master
stuff.

>don\ufffdt know what the difference w/ the Matrix-12 and the 2nd voice board is
>though ...

AFAIK The Matrix 12\ufffdworks the same way as the Xpander.\ufffdYou\ufffdcan assign\ufffd
any number of voices ( up to 12 )\ufffd\ufffdto\ufffdone of the 6 Zones.\ufffd\ufffd

> M12 - Xpander Comparison

I have owned a M12 for a long time. I find the modulation List a great thing,
but I don't see the detune as that much of an advantage, unless
you just gotta have a "Hover" type sound.
Often I have adjusted the detunes to what I think is a perfect sound, only to
reset them all to 0 once I\ufffdplay the sound\ufffdwith a band or midi sequence\ufffdcontext .

Best

Karl


Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by Terje Winther

> Also have in mind,- exactly like w/ a Matrix-12, in Multi-Patch  
> Mode, there´s the option die fine which voicees will be triggered by  
> CV/Gate and which over MIDI.
> So, cable connections can be permanent and you decide by creating  
> patches.

That is just brilliant! I did not think of that. For a live performing  
musician like me, that is heaven sent.

> BEWARE of the japanese models,- completely differen PSU and voice  
> board design,- not reliable units !

Yes, so I understand! I heard that not even Oberheim staff could  
service the Japanese models, so I will not even attempt!

> ROM chip version can be upgraded to the very last versions if you  
> have a Eprom burner handling the Eproms used in the Matrix-12/Xpander.
> The images are still available.

Good to know.


Terje Winther
terje.winther@wintherstormer.no
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by Terje Winther

Like I said: Lots of expertise on this list!
Thanks a lot.

Terje


Den 16. juli. 2012 kl. 18.36 skrev Omar Torres:

>
> unison does not require multi-mode.
>
> all you have to do is assign all 6 voices to
> the same zone (in this case zone 1) and then
> set zone 1 to one of the unison modes instead
> of rotate or reset mode
>
> much easier than having to mess with multi-mode.
>
> -omar


Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by Terje Winther

> I have owned a M12 for a long time. I find the modulation List a  
> great thing,
> but I don't see the detune as that much of an advantage, unless
> you just gotta have a "Hover" type sound.
>
"Hover" type sound!  Funny name, but true!
I am too old to be into techno detuned sound (it really sounds "out of  
tune" for me), but now and then I have patched up my modulars and  
monophonic analogs in a massive collective sound. The idea came from a  
reading of what Rick Wright in Pink Floyd did, overdubbing his  
minimoog multiple times so he had like 18-20 VCOs sounding. You need  
to be careful to really have everything in tune, and play well (or use  
sequencers), and you can achive a slightly different sound. It is a  
lot of work just to get a slightly different sound, but can be worth  
while, as long as you don´t overdo it.

> Often I have adjusted the detunes to what I think is a perfect  
> sound, only to
> reset them all to 0 once I play the sound with a band or midi  
> sequence context .
>

I agree: detuning should be used very subtly.



Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by Omar

before purchasing my Xpander, a good friend of mine let me borrow his Matrix-12 and about the only use case I found the detune to be very nice was when programming pads/strings. with a subtle amount on each of the twelve voices, you get this really nice organic subtle change in thickness and harmonic color when playing chords. this in combination with rotate mode, the same note played never sounds the same twice.

while the same results can be achieved with the Xpander, it's much more cumbersome and not as accessible.

-o
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@wintherstormer.no> wrote:

> I have owned a M12 for a long time. I find the modulation List a
> great thing,
> but I don't see the detune as that much of an advantage, unless
> you just gotta have a "Hover" type sound.
>
"Hover" type sound! Funny name, but true!
I am too old to be into techno detuned sound (it really sounds "out of
tune" for me), but now and then I have patched up my modulars and
monophonic analogs in a massive collective sound. The idea came from a
reading of what Rick Wright in Pink Floyd did, overdubbing his
minimoog multiple times so he had like 18-20 VCOs sounding. You need
to be careful to really have everything in tune, and play well (or use
sequencers), and you can achive a slightly different sound. It is a
lot of work just to get a slightly different sound, but can be worth
while, as long as you don´t overdo it.


> Often I have adjusted the detunes to what I think is a perfect
> sound, only to
> reset them all to 0 once I play the sound with a band or midi
> sequence context .
>

I agree: detuning should be used very subtly.


Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-16 by Howie Shen

The way I view the Xpander vs. Matrix-12 is they were designed for 2 different applications; the Xpander is a multi-timbral sound module designed with both CV & MIDI and multiple audio outputs standard so it can integrate into an analog/digital sequencing setup. The Matrix-12 on the other hand was designed for live playing/performing with ability to quickly setup layers/detuning and have velocity & aftertouch for expressive playing from it's own keyboard. Same sounds, just different uses.

I've owned both, but currently still have my M12. The reason is I love programing slowly evolving pad sounds so the 6 voices of the Xpander were not enough...having notes drop out when playing chords just wasn't satisfying. However, I certainly appreciate that some musicians don't use the Xpander for chords, but rather as 6 individually triggered monosynths, so I get why the XP is a more practical package. Again, that's the beauty of Oberheim designing 2 different machines.

The comment about the Detune feature of the M12 being only good for techno-style "Hoover" sounds is not very fair. If you think about the lush organic quality of instruments like the OBX and Yamaha CS80 much of that is due to the individual voice cards inside being slightly off from each other. Essentially that is what the Detune feature on the Matrix allows you to experience...just like in real life where an ensemble of 12 violinists playing the same note aren't hitting the exact same pitch and that's what makes the sound rich. 

Of course if you go overboard with voice-to-voice detuning the effect becomes very noticeable, but it is surprising how just a subtle use of it can dramatically liven up a sound. So it really is an outstanding feature.

Howie


________________________________
 From: Omar <holografique@...>
To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12
 

  
before purchasing my Xpander, a good friend of mine let me borrow his Matrix-12 and about the only use case I found the detune to be very nice was when programming pads/strings. with a subtle amount on each of the twelve voices, you get this really nice organic subtle change in thickness and harmonic color when playing chords. this in combination with rotate mode, the same note played never sounds the same twice. 

while the same results can be achieved with the Xpander, it's much more cumbersome and not as accessible. 

-o




On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Terje Winther <terje.winther@wintherstormer.no> wrote:

 
>  
>> I have owned a M12 for a long time. I find the modulation List a 
>> great thing,
>> but I don't see the detune as that much of an advantage, unless
>> you just gotta have a "Hover" type sound.
>>
>
"Hover" type sound!  Funny name, but true!
>I am too old to be into techno detuned sound (it really sounds "out of 
>tune" for me), but now and then I have patched up my modulars and 
>monophonic analogs in a massive collective sound. The idea came from a 
>reading of what Rick Wright in Pink Floyd did, overdubbing his 
>minimoog multiple times so he had like 18-20 VCOs sounding. You need 
>to be careful to really have everything in tune, and play well (or use 
>sequencers), and you can achive a slightly different sound. It is a 
>lot of work just to get a slightly different sound, but can be worth 
>while, as long as you don´t overdo it.
>
>
>> Often I have adjusted the detunes to what I think is a perfect 
>> sound, only to
>> reset them all to 0 once I play the sound with a band or midi 
>> sequence context .
>>
>
>
I agree: detuning should be used very subtly.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>Terje Winther
>terje.winther@...
>http://www.wintherstormer.no/
>
>

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by PeWe

Sorry for the typos in that mail,- I was fast typing and had no time for a re-read.

Must be "there\ufffds the option to define which voices"

"different PSU"

:-)


Am 16.07.2012 22:37, schrieb Terje Winther:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd

> Also have in mind,- exactly like w/ a Matrix-12, in Multi-Patch
> Mode, there\ufffds the option die fine which voicees will be triggered by
> CV/Gate and which over MIDI.
> So, cable connections can be permanent and you decide by creating
> patches.

That is just brilliant! I did not think of that. For a live performing
musician like me, that is heaven sent.

> BEWARE of the japanese models,- completely differen PSU and voice
> board design,- not reliable units !

Yes, so I understand! I heard that not even Oberheim staff could
service the Japanese models, so I will not even attempt!

> ROM chip version can be upgraded to the very last versions if you
> have a Eprom burner handling the Eproms used in the Matrix-12/Xpander.
> The images are still available.

Good to know.

Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/


Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by PeWe

>>>

Am 16.07.2012 23:47, schrieb Howie Shen:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd
The way I view the Xpander vs. Matrix-12 is they were designed for 2 different applications; the Xpander is a multi-timbral sound module designed with both CV & MIDI and multiple audio outputs standard so it can integrate into an analog/digital sequencing setup. The Matrix-12 on the other hand was designed for live playing/performing with ability to quickly setup layers/detuning and have velocity & aftertouch for expressive playing from it's own keyboard. Same sounds, just different uses.

Oberheim Xpander came in 1984.

If you go back in Oberheim synth design history,- there was the SEM module 1st, then the 2-voice, 4-voice, 6- and 8-voice SEM based polyphonic synths which were very flexible but not stable in tuning, not very reliable, bulky and storage capacity was very limited.
But this concept designing synths made the Oberheim brand well known and famous.

Then came the OBX in different polyphonic ( 4-, 6- 8-voice) configurations,12dB VCFs only,- then the OBXa,-\ufffd w/ 12 and 24dB VCFs
With the OB-8, their own digital bus was introduces, but no MIDI in OBX, OBXa and OB-8 (when it was introduced).
I buyed my OB-8 already fitted w/ MIDI,- it was one of the later ones where the digital controlled "Page 2" features were introduced already which came as a OS update for the previous models.
In fact, these poly synths were all answers on the Prophet 5, shortly followed by OBX,- and Roland Jupiter 8 (early 1981) followed by OBXa.

Xpander was a logical consequence because MIDI became very popular and they wanted to come up w/ the best MIDI implementation every seen before, but combined this AGAIN w/ the half modular design well known from Oberheim SEM modules, the multimode filter, as also all "Page 2 the functionality" from the OB-8 went into the featurelist of the Xpander.

When they came up w/ the Matrix-12 in 1985 already,- my impression was, they thought CV/GATE was out of fashion or not necessary anymore because MIDI dominated.
Ditching single voice outputs and CV/GATE connectors was a big saver of production costs.

Looking back to 1986 when the Oberheim XK masterkeyboard was introduced already,- I think they had all in their pockets already w/ the developement of the Xpander.
It was the 1st machine w/ that high level of digital control.

As I said in a former post, the Matrix-12, for me wasn\ufffdt the ideal gigging synth because of it\ufffds size and lack of stiffness of it\ufffds case,- and because MIDI was implemented in several other keyboards already, I was easier to travel w/ 1 or 2 Xpanders than w/ a Matrix-12.
I sold my OB-8 because of the Xpander and discovering I was able to re-produce my OB-8 patches on the Xpander by manual re-programming, both side-by side and using earphones.
That was a\ufffd 6-week programming, but also big learning of the Xpander.


I've owned both, but currently still have my M12. The reason is I love programing slowly evolving pad sounds so the 6 voices of the Xpander were not enough...having notes drop out when playing chords just wasn't satisfying.

That\ufffds true,- but using 3 Xpanders w/ a XK surpasses the usage of a Matrix-12 ... :-)
OTOH, lack of "spillover voices" in the XK doesn\ufffdt make 3 Xpanders a 18-voice poly.

But today and w/ a Kurzweil PC3 model, we\ufffdre able to make a 12-voice poly out of 2 Xpanders.

However, I certainly appreciate that some musicians don't use the Xpander for chords, but rather as 6 individually triggered monosynths,-

Oh no, they probably use it for both and multitimbral chords, just like the Matrix-12.
How many notes do you need to play a chord, even a long envolving one and in a musical context ?
According to music theory, you need exactly 4 voices to play every chord,- skip the root.

so I get why the XP is a more practical package. Again, that's the beauty of Oberheim designing 2 different machines.

Yes,- and most interesting w/ Matrix-12 over the Xpander is Dual-Layer Mode w/ voices/voiceboards slightly detuned,- and have to leyers as physical controllers,- like in the OBX, OBXa and OB-8 models.
Many Oberheim players missed the levers and weren\ufffdt very familiar w/ wheel pitch bend techniques when they had to control the Xpander by another MIDI keyboard.
In the past, there was lot of discussion what\ufffds the best,- wheels or levers.
Keyboardplayers were devided into 2 parties because of this.


The comment about the Detune feature of the M12 being only good for techno-style "Hoover" sounds is not very fair.

No one said that, it was a comment on stacking ALL OSCs and detune and there was no comment on the Matrix-12 being only good for techno style hoover.

If you think about the lush organic quality of instruments like the OBX and Yamaha CS80 much of that is due to the individual voice cards inside being slightly off from each other. Essentially that is what the Detune feature on the Matrix allows you to experience...just like in real life where an ensemble of 12 violinists playing the same note aren't hitting the exact same pitch and that's what makes the sound rich.

Best string-, brass- and warm pad sounds by using Matrix-12 in dual layer mode and using the detune page !
But, I always liked layering/stacking different synths more than stacking and detune voices of the same synth.
This includes same type of patches in these different synths.

P.

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Omar


However, I certainly appreciate that some musicians don't use the Xpander for chords, but rather as 6 individually triggered monosynths,-

Oh no, they probably use it for both and multitimbral chords, just like the Matrix-12.
How many notes do you need to play a chord, even a long envolving one and in a musical context ?
According to music theory, you need exactly 4 voices to play every chord,- skip the root.



yea, I was gonna say, I use mine for every type of synth sound. from mono-basses, to percussion, to thick pads, to buzzy resonant stabs, to leads, to modular noises, etc. etc.

6-voices is plenty for chords, although if you are doing lots of quick chord changes, then yea you'll hear it cut off, but that's nothing a little delay fx with a nice feedback tail on it can't fix up in a jiffy. pretty common when dealing with poly-analogs.

-o

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Tony Cappellini


>>;The comment about the Detune feature of the M12 being only good for >>techno-style "Hoover" sounds is not very fair.
I've been a fan of electronic music since the late 70s.
I have to admit I've never heard the reference to "Hoover sounds".

Would someone point me to an MP3 or YouTube example of that?
(a time reference within that mp3 or video would be helpful too)

thanks

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by PeWe


>>>

Am 17.07.2012 05:28, schrieb Omar:
\ufffd
if you are doing lots of quick chord changes, then yea you'll hear it cut off

The Xpander must be programmed carefully to make voice steal as much inaudible as it can be.
The interaction of keyboard assign modes, envelope trigger modes and the behaviour of (the programmable) sustain pedal scaling is very important.
In most cases, there\ufffds no general rule and it\ufffds all about reverse engineering of a patch and experimenting until it satisfies.
But as a slightly general rule for fast chord changes,- don\ufffdt use long releases and pay attention what the sustain pedal does to which envelopes and if you are in "rotate mode" w/ the voices.
In opposite to most other poly synths, the sustain pedal as a modulator doesn\ufffdt cause infinite sustain when stepping on the pedal depending on which parameters are been modulated by MIDI CC64.
So, it can be used as a combined decay/release pedal instead of a simple sustain pedal which gives much more musical results.
According to the Xpanders factory patches volumes, I had to re-program every little bit to my taste,- these were only starters for me, then turned to different patches for different purposes.

It\ufffds definitely a machine for programmers and keyboardplayers who don\ufffdt fear programming.
The Xpander is the synth I learned most about analogue synth programming,- even I own and owned earlier synth models like Minimoog D, Prophet-5 and the OB-8.

IMO, if you own a Minimoog D and a Xpander, it covers most you can get from a analogue synth.
There \ufffds the lame behaviour of Xpander envelopes for percussive sounds though.
I always compensate by layering w/ FM synths like DX7mkII, TX-816 or TG77.
If I need more modular weirdness, today I use the Sonic Core Modular III in SCOPE.

P.

Fw: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Karl Schmeer

Hi Tony,

If memory serves, the Roland Juno Alpha was famous for this.

This tutorial shows the programming of one. On the Matrix 12 No less :-)


 http://m.matrixsynth.com/2012/06/matrix-12-xpander-tutorial-3-modulation.html

Best

Karl
___________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Tony Cappellini <cappy2112@...>
To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, July 16, 2012 10:43:33 PM
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12


>>The comment about the Detune feature of the M12 being only good for 
>>>>techno-style "Hoover" sounds is not very fair.
I've been a fan of electronic music since the late 70s.
I have to admit I've never heard the reference to "Hoover sounds".

Would someone point me to an MP3 or YouTube example of that?
(a time reference within that mp3 or video would be helpful too)

thanks

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Omar Torres

lol, or like I said, just use some delay and problem fixed!

:)

-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 16, 2012, at 11:54 PM, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:

> 
> >>>
> 
> Am 17.07.2012 05:28, schrieb Omar:
>>  
>> if you are doing lots of quick chord changes, then yea you'll hear it cut off
> 
> The Xpander must be programmed carefully to make voice steal as much inaudible as it can be.
> The interaction of keyboard assign modes, envelope trigger modes and the behaviour of (the programmable) sustain pedal scaling is very important.
> In most cases, there´s no general rule and it´s all about reverse engineering of a patch and experimenting until it satisfies.
> But as a slightly general rule for fast chord changes,- don´t use long releases and pay attention what the sustain pedal does to which envelopes and if you are in "rotate mode" w/ the voices.
> In opposite to most other poly synths, the sustain pedal as a modulator doesn´t cause infinite sustain when stepping on the pedal depending on which parameters are been modulated by MIDI CC64.
> So, it can be used as a combined decay/release pedal instead of a simple sustain pedal which gives much more musical results.
> According to the Xpanders factory patches volumes, I had to re-program every little bit to my taste,- these were only starters for me, then turned to different patches for different purposes.
> 
> It´s definitely a machine for programmers and keyboardplayers who don´t fear programming.
> The Xpander is the synth I learned most about analogue synth programming,- even I own and owned earlier synth models like Minimoog D, Prophet-5 and the OB-8.
> 
> IMO, if you own a Minimoog D and a Xpander, it covers most you can get from a analogue synth.
> There ´s the lame behaviour of Xpander envelopes for percussive sounds though.
> I always compensate by layering w/ FM synths like DX7mkII, TX-816 or TG77.
> If I need more modular weirdness, today I use the Sonic Core Modular III in SCOPE.
> 
> P.
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Terje Winther

Xpander was a logical consequence because MIDI became very popular and they wanted to come up w/ the best MIDI implementation every seen before, but combined this AGAIN w/ the half modular design well known from Oberheim SEM modules, the multimode filter, as also all "Page 2 the functionality" from the OB-8 went into the featurelist of the Xpander.

Yes, that is how I see it as well: the Xpander being the peak of the development of their analog polyphonic line.

When they came up w/ the Matrix-12 in 1985 already,- my impression was, they thought CV/GATE was out of fashion or not necessary anymore because MIDI dominated.
Ditching single voice outputs and CV/GATE connectors was a big saver of production costs.

Oh, yes: I lived back then, and clearly remember the "MIDI-war" between all manufacturers. The marked suddenly flooded with synths, and it was tough competition.

I sold my OB-8 because of the Xpander and discovering I was able to re-produce my OB-8 patches on the Xpander by manual re-programming, both side-by side and using earphones.
That was a 6-week programming, but also big learning of the Xpander.

Nice! Good work.

That´s true,- but using 3 Xpanders w/ a XK surpasses the usage of a Matrix-12 ... :-)

Now, now: don´t tempt me :-)

How many notes do you need to play a chord, even a long envolving one and in a musical context ?
According to music theory, you need exactly 4 voices to play every chord,- skip the root.

So you have never played with a jazz guitarist, have you? Just kidding: I have played with one, and even though he sometimes uses chords that I hardly grasp how to do, it is still so many chord notes omitted that at least 6 notes should be plenty.

The discussion about complex, evolving chords with long release is interesting, though, because that is important in some type of music. Various solution excists, and I appreciate all input on the matter. Careful programming, well thought out performance and of course various types of delay are good examples of solutions.

Best string-, brass- and warm pad sounds by using Matrix-12 in dual layer mode and using the detune page !
But, I always liked layering/stacking different synths more than stacking and detune voices of the same synth.
This includes same type of patches in these different synths.

Indeed! Amazing how even two "not-so-good" polysynths can sound very good if you layer sounds on them. Do this on good polysynths, and it is hard not to put a smile on your face when playing.

_,_._,___


Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Terje Winther

IMO, if you own a Minimoog D and a Xpander, it covers most you can get from a analogue synth.
There ´s the lame behaviour of Xpander envelopes for percussive sounds though.

Interesting. You probably can´t have both on the same synth, ultrapercussive sounds (very short envelopes) and long, evolving sounds (very long envelopes) because analog circuitry seems to have some limits. Lately however, I have discovered that adding a tiny, tiny amount of attack time to percussive sounds can add a "whoomp" at the start that really makes wonders with the sound. I have also done some experiments with various envelopes from different brands (easy when you have a modular) controlling the same sound, and hear the differences. It seems the the slope affects the sound just as much as how fast the envelope is (This is only relevant in very short sounds, of course). Through this I have also come to appreciate "slow and inferior" envelope generators, because they can be used to shape sounds that "faster and better" envelopes can´t. I too can hear that the Matrix-12 envelopes are not splitting fast as my minimoog, but Oberheim synths have always had this good quality of "whoomp", or force in the envelopes that I appreciate.

I always compensate by layering w/ FM synths like DX7mkII, TX-816 or TG77.

And that technique was of course well perfected later on, in those ROM-sample-attack + analog sound instruments that came later. I think it is called "instrumentation", and it really works well.



Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by PeWe

>>>

Am 17.07.2012 10:22, schrieb Terje Winther:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd

Interesting. You probably can\ufffdt have both on the same synth, ultrapercussive sounds (very short envelopes) and long, evolving sounds (very long envelopes) because analog circuitry seems to have some limits.

You cannot have it w/ THIS synth because much stuff is software generated,- almost any "VCA" out of the 90, the envelopes and LFOs as well as ramp generators ...
And there was the IBM processor the most powerful at that time and the Xpander needed 2 of these ...
In fact they advertised the Xpander being twice as powerfull as a IBM PC.

Now, the Xpander has 2 of these processors and the Matrix-12 also, but twice the voices !
I always wondered if this might have influence on the lameness of the digital emulated components in the Matrix-12 and when all 12 voices are in use simultaneously.
But I never compared and maybe someone else chimes in here on this point.

There were other analog synths/expanders being more punchy and percussive,- Memorymoog and Roland MKS80 (which I sold 1 year ago).

Lately however, I have discovered that adding a tiny, tiny amount of attack time to percussive sounds can add a "whoomp" at the start that really makes wonders with the sound. I have also done some experiments with various envelopes from different brands (easy when you have a modular) controlling the same sound, and hear the differences. It seems the the slope affects the sound just as much as how fast the envelope is (This is only relevant in very short sounds, of course). Through this I have also come to appreciate "slow and inferior" envelope generators, because they can be used to shape sounds that "faster and better" envelopes can\ufffdt. I too can hear that the Matrix-12 envelopes are not splitting fast as my minimoog, but Oberheim synths have always had this good quality of "whoomp", or force in the envelopes that I appreciate.

You can do "percussive" sounds w/ a Xpander as well as a Matrix-12,- but these aren\ufffdt that snappy and/or punchy compared to some other analogues from that time.

The Moog, Sequential Circuits and Roland envelopes were snappy until Rolands MKS70 came out w/ DCOs and combined VCF/VCA chips and the Oberheim envelopes were snappy in the times there were discrete circuitry and SSM chips in the synths,- or more CEM chips.

Compared to these kohortes of CEM chips you find in a Memorymoog, Prophet 5, Jupiter 8/MKS80, OBXa and OB-8,- in the Xpander and Matrix-12 there isn\ufffdt much.
The fact, also the multi mode filter is only a signal generator chip driven by software, comes in addition.


And that technique was of course well perfected later on, in those ROM-sample-attack + analog sound instruments that came later.

Yep, but IMO, FM synthesis is much more lifelike than static short samples ...
But you\ufffdre right some way,- layering Xpander w/ EMU Proteus (FX) worked very well for me toom- but I had the options using FM or (ROMpler) samples.

P.

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by PeWe


>>>

Am 17.07.2012 10:14, schrieb Terje Winther:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd


So you have never played with a jazz guitarist, have you? Just kidding: I have played with one, and even though he sometimes uses chords that I hardly grasp how to do, it is still so many chord notes omitted that at least 6 notes should be plenty.

If you listen to the guys like Lyle mays, Joe Zawinul and Wolfgang Dauner p.ex.,- it\ufffds pretty clear 4 voices being enough if the key assignment modes work correctly and the performer is a good player.
Is all about these guys weren\ufffdt only players but arrangers and had/have knowledge music wise.
There\ufffds Hindemith and so there are the 4 voices ... :-)

These instruments were designed without having sequencer work in mind,- they were made to play and perform.
There were no computers and DAW sequencers available at that time.
I remember touring w/ a Commodore SX64 and a small program Gerhard Lengeling (Notator and Logic mastermind together w/ Chris Adams) coded for a very few early Prophet 5 owners here, just to make sysex data transfer available,- and the sequencer solutions for this computer were, eeehmmm,- extremely basic, buggy and cumbersome.

For the old "pre Xpander" Oberheims, there was nothing than a mono cassette player/recorder, the cassette interfaces in the synths and the only "sequencer" available was the little 8-step sequencer in the 4, 6 and 8 voice models featured by SEM modules and OBX as well as OBXa were cassette interface only synths too.
Also OB-8 and until the MIDI retrofit came.

There was some kind of a larger digital sequencer early made by Oberheim, but I\ufffdm not sure it worked well or not,- I think the very 1st affordable and usable digital sequencer from Oberheim was the DSX for the digital bus of the OB-8 and after the drum machine DMX was out.

Also this was an answer to a Yamaha system,- QX-1 & TX-816 plus DX7 as the (programmer) controller and a RX (?) drum machine,- this before the Yammi masterkeyboards (KX88/76) came,- a system I own up today.

Indeed! Amazing how even two "not-so-good" polysynths can sound very good if you layer sounds on them. Do this on good polysynths, and it is hard not to put a smile on your face when playing.

IMO, Xpander layered /midied to DX-7 sounds KILLER !
I\ufffdve seen a studio session artist in munich mid 80th doing ALL studio sessions w/ this rig and without any 8-Bit sampler.
He was very busy nearly all day and made crazy income !!!

P.

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by endofcommon@gmail.com

Great conversation, glad to see the art of programming sound still alive!

On Jul 16, 2012, at 11:54 PM, PeWe wrote:



>>>

Am 17.07.2012 05:28, schrieb Omar:
if you are doing lots of quick chord changes, then yea you'll hear it cut off

The Xpander must be programmed carefully to make voice steal as much inaudible as it can be.
The interaction of keyboard assign modes, envelope trigger modes and the behaviour of (the programmable) sustain pedal scaling is very important.
In most cases, there´s no general rule and it´s all about reverse engineering of a patch and experimenting until it satisfies.
But as a slightly general rule for fast chord changes,- don´t use long releases and pay attention what the sustain pedal does to which envelopes and if you are in "rotate mode" w/ the voices.
In opposite to most other poly synths, the sustain pedal as a modulator doesn´t cause infinite sustain when stepping on the pedal depending on which parameters are been modulated by MIDI CC64.
So, it can be used as a combined decay/release pedal instead of a simple sustain pedal which gives much more musical results.
According to the Xpanders factory patches volumes, I had to re-program every little bit to my taste,- these were only starters for me, then turned to different patches for different purposes.

It´s definitely a machine for programmers and keyboardplayers who don´t fear programming.
The Xpander is the synth I learned most about analogue synth programming,- even I own and owned earlier synth models like Minimoog D, Prophet-5 and the OB-8.

IMO, if you own a Minimoog D and a Xpander, it covers most you can get from a analogue synth.
There ´s the lame behaviour of Xpander envelopes for percussive sounds though.
I always compensate by layering w/ FM synths like DX7mkII, TX-816 or TG77.
If I need more modular weirdness, today I use the Sonic Core Modular III in SCOPE.

P.



Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by robert hall

oh no-i hope we don't limit ourselves to simple 4 note chords-harmonic colours like those based on modes of limited 'transposition (a la messiaen)are wonderful backgrounds for spacey ambient stuff.thanks,rob

--- On Mon, 7/16/12, Omar <holografique@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Omar <holografique@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12
To: xpantastic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 16, 2012, 8:28 PM
















 



  


    
      
      
      

    
      
        
          
            
              However, I certainly appreciate that some
                  musicians don't use the Xpander for chords, but rather
                  as 6 individually triggered monosynths,-
            
          
        
      
    
    

    Oh no, they probably use it for both and multitimbral chords, just
    like the Matrix-12.

    How many notes do you need to play a chord, even a long envolving
    one and in a musical context ?

    According to music theory, you need exactly 4 voices to play every
    chord,- skip the root.


yea, I was gonna say, I use mine for every type of synth sound. from mono-basses, to percussion, to thick pads, to buzzy resonant stabs, to leads, to modular noises, etc. etc. 


6-voices is plenty for chords, although if you are doing lots of quick chord changes, then yea you'll hear it cut off, but that's nothing a little delay fx with a nice feedback tail on it can't fix up in a jiffy. pretty common when dealing with poly-analogs. 


-o

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by PeWe

Who says a 4-note chord is simple ?

With the Xpander you\ufffdd have 6 notes anyway and w/ the Matrix-12 you have,- guess what (?) ...

I mostly play 2 keyboards at a time and have 2 hands only, each w/ 5 fingers,- fortunately these are all existing up to now ... :-)

With 5 fingers, I can use 6 voices at max., using the thumb pressing 2 keys occasionally.

Am 17.07.2012 19:50, schrieb robert hall:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd

oh no-

i hope we don't limit ourselves to simple 4 note chords-
harmonic colours like those based on modes of limited 'transposition (a la messiaen)
are wonderful backgrounds for spacey ambient stuff.
thanks,
rob


Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Omar Torres

and lets not forget the wonders of layering
multiple tracks of the same synth in your DAW...lol

-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 17, 2012, at 2:11 PM, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:

> Who says a 4-note chord is simple ?
> 
> With the Xpander you´d have 6 notes anyway and w/ the Matrix-12 you have,- guess what (?) ...
> 
> I mostly play 2 keyboards at a time and have 2 hands only, each w/ 5 fingers,- fortunately these are all existing up to now ... :-)
> 
> With 5 fingers, I can use 6 voices at max., using the thumb pressing 2 keys occasionally.
> 
> Am 17.07.2012 19:50, schrieb robert hall:
>>  
>> oh no-
>> i hope we don't limit ourselves to simple 4 note chords-
>> harmonic colours like those based on modes of limited 'transposition (a la messiaen)
>> are wonderful backgrounds for spacey ambient stuff.
>> thanks,
>> rob
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by PeWe


Yep,- especially w/ the very accurate emulations of Minimoog (Minimax), Prophet VS (Vectron), Prophet V (Profit-5), Juno 60 (Uknow7) and ARP Odyssey (Prodyssey) and John Bowen\ufffds beautiful ZARG synths,- all polyphonic, running on my Sonic Core XITE-1 DSP machine and together w/ my hardware instruments,- all aliasing and latency free in SCOPE mode.

And there\ufffds OPX Pro II VSTi too, which is a good replacement for my OB-8.

Works all in realtime, no DAW tracks necessary at all, except for OPX Pro II and the recording.

But there\ufffds no real replacement for my Xpander up to now as also my Minimoog sounds different when compared w/ Minimax.

Anyway, there are lots of options always w/ todays technology and the technology from the past.
I like to have both options.

Am 17.07.2012 21:07, schrieb Omar Torres:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd
and lets not forget the wonders of layering
multiple tracks of the same synth in your DAW...lol

-omar


Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Tony Cappellini

> Yep,- especially w/ the very accurate emulations of Minimoog (Minimax),
> Prophet VS (Vectron), Prophet V (Profit-5), Juno 60 (Uknow7) and ARP Odyssey
> (Prodyssey) and John Bowen´s beautiful ZARG synths,- all polyphonic, running
> on my Sonic Core XITE-1 DSP machine and together w/ my hardware
> instruments,- all aliasing and latency free in SCOPE mode.

All running on 1 machine at the same time??

Hard to believe.
Which OS?

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Omar Torres

I was referring multiple tracks of the Xpander
being recorded. Its amazing how people sometimes
think that just because a synth only has 2-4-6 
voices, thats all they are limited to.

Record you first part. Setup another track
and record another layer or part with the same
patch on the same synth. Layering is such a
simple but often forgotten technique that doesn't
just apply to layering different synths. You
can layer the same synth as many times as
your heart desires (and your DAW track count
allows) :)

-omar

---
sent from iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jul 17, 2012, at 3:43 PM, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:

> 
> Yep,- especially w/ the very accurate emulations of Minimoog (Minimax), Prophet VS (Vectron), Prophet V (Profit-5), Juno 60 (Uknow7) and ARP Odyssey (Prodyssey) and John Bowen´s beautiful ZARG synths,- all polyphonic, running on my Sonic Core XITE-1 DSP machine and together w/ my hardware instruments,- all aliasing and latency free in SCOPE mode.
> 
> And there´s OPX Pro II VSTi too, which is a good replacement for my OB-8.
> 
> Works all in realtime, no DAW tracks necessary at all, except for OPX Pro II and the recording.
> 
> But there´s no real replacement for my Xpander up to now as also my Minimoog sounds different when compared w/ Minimax.
> 
> Anyway, there are lots of options always w/ todays technology and the technology from the past.
> I like to have both options.
> 
> Am 17.07.2012 21:07, schrieb Omar Torres:
>>  
>> and lets not forget the wonders of layering
>> multiple tracks of the same synth in your DAW...lol
>> 
>> -omar
>> 
> 
>

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by PeWe

They run on the XITE-1 DSPs and it\ufffds not all.

I\ufffdm running a STS-4000 sampler w/ 32-voices or Vocodizer w/ 4 voices in addition and Vectron Player w/ 8 voices as well as Lightwave v5 8voices.
B2003 is full polyphony, Minimax I use like the original monophonic.
Profit-5 5 voices, Prodyssey 5 voices, Uknow7 8voices.
In addition, 2448X mixer and 4 aux FX, Mic/DI source, Phones destination, 8 busses to ASIO, 8 ADAT channels input, 4 ADAT channels output, 2 ASIO flt.32 inputs (Presonus Studio One Prov2 and Reason 6.02 rewired, but separate output channels), XITE-1 rear line input for Kurzweil PC361, the other hardware instruments connected to my Nuendo(RME) 8 I/O (ADI 8Pro) AD/DA.
XITE-1 MIDI In source, 2 sequencer MIDI sources and destinations, 1 MIDI merger 4 in 1 , MIDI monitor, and WAVE Source for the entertainment (any media player).
I use EQ and dynamics in some STM 2448X channels too.

It\ufffds amazing and the XITE-1 load is ~50% !

I\ufffdm just figuring out MIDI realtime control by MIDI learn and storing MIDI CC presets permanently for the single devices.
Kurzweil PC361 is ideal.

You won\ufffdt believe, but my machine is a rackmount PC, Intel dual core D945 slightly o/c-ed from stock speed 3.4GHz to 3.832GHz on a ASUS P5WD2 Premium mainboard, Mushkin Redline RAM running at 902MHz, Corsair HX520W PSU, WD Caviar Black 24/7 hardrives, EVGA Nvidia 9500 graphics runing 2 Samsung 22" screens.
OS is Win XP Pro SP3 32Bit ...
Presonus Studio One Pro v2 or Reaper 4.25 host VST stuff and Reason is rewired to the host.
Works like a charme and total recall.

Best is using SCOPE 5.1 (I\ufffdm using 32Bit version) standalone, not XTC mode.
For recording, I send MIDI to the Scope devices via sequencer MIDI sources and record using the busses of the STM 24/48X mixer assigned to ASIO channels,- that\ufffds all.

In Scope mode, the latency between XITE-1 and the computer is 1ms at max. via PCIe and the ASIO latency depends on the buffer size,- I\ufffdm using 4ms/44.1KHz,- because is not the fastest PC.
The Scope devices themselves have no latency if driven directly from XITE-1 MIDI Input,- a few samples.

I have a 2nd old PC set up right now and connect it to the 2nd ADAT In of XITE-1,- so it can run a Modular III w/ some voices in addition on my old Creamware 15DSP card which will be mixed on XITE-1.

Here are 2 pics of working realtime projects,- 1 w/ Reaper 4.22 and the other w/ Presonus Studio One Pro v2,- both w/ Reason rewired.
Scope XITE & Reaper

Scope Xite and PSOPv2

I hope the links work.
There\ufffds just an article at Scoperise mag about "hi tech museum" gear form the past which shows most of my old gear,- and the XITE-1 etc.
Click everything named "Bud\ufffds ..."
article

In september, there will be another one explaining what Xite-1 replaces for realtime work,- also for gigging, together w/ screenshots etc..
The pics above are from april this year, shortly after I received the XITE.

For my purposes, it runs so well I\ufffdm now thinking about aquireing a older laptop w/ PCIexpress card slot to control XITE-1 and buy the PCIexpress/HDMI cable interface,- just only for portability.
Scope 6 comes w/ Copperlan MIDI and OSC control surface support, so for the future, I see a touch screen and MIDI over LAN also for the hardware,- there\ufffds the KISS Box !

:-)

Am 17.07.2012 21:47, schrieb Tony Cappellini:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd



All running on 1 machine at the same time??

Hard to believe.
Which OS?



Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by endofcommon@gmail.com

I refer people to Carlos, that usually opens some eyes and ears.

On Jul 17, 2012, at 4:47 PM, Omar Torres wrote:


I was referring multiple tracks of the Xpander
being recorded. Its amazing how people sometimes
think that just because a synth only has 2-4-6
voices, thats all they are limited to.

Record you first part. Setup another track
and record another layer or part with the same
patch on the same synth. Layering is such a
simple but often forgotten technique that doesn't
just apply to layering different synths. You
can layer the same synth as many times as
your heart desires (and your DAW track count
allows) :)

-omar

---
sent from iPhone

On Jul 17, 2012, at 3:43 PM, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:



Yep,- especially w/ the very accurate emulations of Minimoog (Minimax), Prophet VS (Vectron), Prophet V (Profit-5), Juno 60 (Uknow7) and ARP Odyssey (Prodyssey) and John Bowen´s beautiful ZARG synths,- all polyphonic, running on my Sonic Core XITE-1 DSP machine and together w/ my hardware instruments,- all aliasing and latency free in SCOPE mode.

And there´s OPX Pro II VSTi too, which is a good replacement for my OB-8.

Works all in realtime, no DAW tracks necessary at all, except for OPX Pro II and the recording.

But there´s no real replacement for my Xpander up to now as also my Minimoog sounds different when compared w/ Minimax.

Anyway, there are lots of options always w/ todays technology and the technology from the past.
I like to have both options.

Am 17.07.2012 21:07, schrieb Omar Torres:
and lets not forget the wonders of layering
multiple tracks of the same synth in your DAW...lol

-omar





Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Terje Winther

>> So you have never played with a jazz guitarist, have you? Just  
>> kidding: I have played with one, and even though he sometimes uses  
>> chords that I hardly grasp how to do, it is still so many chord  
>> notes omitted that at least 6 notes should be plenty.
>
> If you listen to the guys like Lyle mays, Joe Zawinul and Wolfgang  
> Dauner p.ex.,- it´s pretty clear 4 voices being enough if the key  
> assignment modes work correctly and the performer is a good player.

Yes, that is true. The instruments learn you to think. There is a  
different playing technique on a piano, an organ, a mellotron or a  
polysynth. I like that: it keeps your mind sharp to find solutions.

> For the old "pre Xpander" Oberheims, there was nothing than a mono  
> cassette player/recorder, the cassette interfaces in the synths and  
> the only "sequencer" available was the little 8-step sequencer in  
> the 4, 6 and 8 voice models featured by SEM modules and OBX as well  
> as OBXa were cassette interface only synths too.

The cassette interface is still there on the Matrix-12. Rather strange  
(and cute!) to see that huge polysynth, and then cassette interface.

> IMO, Xpander layered /midied to DX-7 sounds KILLER !

Great! I will give that a try.



Terje Winther
terje.winther@...
http://www.wintherstormer.no/

Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by Terje Winther

Record you first part. Setup another track
and record another layer or part with the same
patch on the same synth. Layering is such a
simple but often forgotten technique that doesn't
just apply to layering different synths. You
can layer the same synth as many times as
your heart desires (and your DAW track count
allows) :)

Ahh.... Memories. The 1970s, my first synth (multimoog) and a 4-track reel-to-reel tape deck.
I actually did some of this on my first solo CD, playing the minimoog several times by hand.
It really works. Just ask W. Carlos.




_._,___



Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-17 by endofcommon@gmail.com

Warm Leatherette was made with a 4 track and a 700S.

On Jul 17, 2012, at 5:31 PM, Terje Winther wrote:


Record you first part. Setup another track
and record another layer or part with the same
patch on the same synth. Layering is such a
simple but often forgotten technique that doesn't
just apply to layering different synths. You
can layer the same synth as many times as
your heart desires (and your DAW track count
allows) :)

Ahh.... Memories. The 1970s, my first synth (multimoog) and a 4-track reel-to-reel tape deck.
I actually did some of this on my first solo CD, playing the minimoog several times by hand.
It really works. Just ask W. Carlos.




_._,___





Re: [xpantastic] The pure size of the Matrix-12

2012-07-18 by PeWe

Hi Seth !

I think it is no prob to mention the Solaris.
It\ufffds a very interesting machine because it combines several of the ZARG synth engines and modulators and it can be it has to replace old analogue synths for me in future.
The haptics of the Solaris are perfect, but -

Up to now, I haven\ufffdt heard any audio demo which sounds on par w/ a real analogue synth like the Minimoog or Xpander.
Solaris, by nature, sounds more digital to me,- it is a digital synthesizer and it is based on the same technology the S|C XITE is.

Since I have the XITE-1, I\ufffdm not sure if it would be necessary or essential for me to dump another EUR 3.650.- for a keyboard instrument except I\ufffdd need it for touring because of the haptics.
Up to now, I wasn\ufffdt able to decide for selling the Minimoog and/or Xpander to make Solaris affordable for me,- the creamy and buttery sounding analog synths are hard to replace by digital technology.
Functionality wise and on the modulation side, Solaris is a winner for sure and also the Zarg software Solaris device is different from the hardware Solaris.
Hardware Solaris is a unique instrument.

But ideally,- I\ufffdd like to keep MinimoogD and Xpander and eventually buy a Solaris in addition one day, but not as a replacement for my Oberheim Xpander.

John Bowen is a cool and genious guy and I appreciated, he himself said Solaris isn\ufffdt a Moog or Oberheim synth even it\ufffds capable to deliver some sounds in that department.

In fact, I\ufffdd like to have a Solaris in my hands for some programming for a week or so before making a decision,- audio demos in the web don\ufffdt tell me very much, so the pre-order strategy for purchasing a Solaris is not for me.

It is also not sure if Solaris will get MIDI multi mode one day w/ a system upgrade, so in that department the Xpander/Matrix-12 rules.
In fact, it depends on if it will be possible to implement MIDI multi mode w/ the technology Solaris is based on.
Up to now, it is a 10 voice synthesizer because it\ufffds realized that way, 2 voices of Solaris run on one of the new Sharc 333MHz DSP chips (5 DSPs for the voices) and the 6th DSP is for FX and the I/O routing stuff.
Solaris depends on the development of\ufffd S|C SCOPE SDK which is also responsible for XITE-1 functionality.
There are some optimisations necessary in regards of automatic DSP assignment (loading and off-loading of devices/ software components) which is essential to get MIDI multi mode on Solaris and more devices loadable on a XITE-1D or XITE-1.
\ufffd


Am 18.07.2012 00:38, schrieb Seth Elgart:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
\ufffd

On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 at 3:43 PM, PeWe wrote:
John Bowen\ufffds beautiful ZARG synths
I've almost been afraid to mention it, but I'd like to recommend the Solaris as sort of modern Xpander. It's not analog (which was why I haven't mentioned it yet) but it's got 6 displays, tons of modulation sources and destinations, a large number of oscillator and filter types, etc. Worth taking a look at.


Seth




Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.