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fully recapping a vintage synth

fully recapping a vintage synth

2014-12-03 by jim@saltlands.com

I know this is a tad off topic, but I'm wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about possible sonic negatives to doing this. I think of the recent video interview with the korg engineers who designed the ms-20, which was made and released as promo when the ms20 mini came out... The engineers mention in this interview that they think the ms 20 mini will only sound exactly like an original when it's been a few decades and the capacitors have aged.
So in this light, are we all in love with our aged capacitors? Or would a fully recapped polysix still sound warm?
Im considering doing this for the sake of clearing up stray issues now and in the future. I also am curious if it might even sound.. Better.
Of course it is assumed that recalibrations/tuning etc will then be needed. But couldn't a full scale bath like this be something very effective?

Re: [PolySix] fully recapping a vintage synth

2014-12-03 by Terje Winther

This is of course much debated, but there are some general rules:
- First of all: remember that electrolytic caps do have a fairly short lifespan (compared to many other types of electronic parts). Some of them needs to be changed in older synths in order for the synths to work properly.
- I think it is fairly common knowlegde now that caps in the power supply and caps for bypassing can be changed without influencing the basic sound. In most cases it will bring back the sparkle in the sound and get rid of various types of problem, so yes: if you do like hum, cracle, noise and various other instabilities in your sound, there is no need to recap.  ;-)
- The real culpit is in the caps that are in the direct path of the sound. Often, these components have not been so hard pressed that they malfunction (or are at the border of failure), so they still work even if they are old, and sometimes it doesn´t even matter if they short-circut, because there will still be sound in your synth. Recapping these specific caps might interfere with the sound, but I think the changes are very, very slight nuances - nuances that are *less* than the natural variances between two equal synthesizers, like two PolySixes or two MS-20s.
- The issue border on a similar discussion regarding op-amps: should you change the old op-amps with better-speced op-amps to get high-quality sound, or should you keep the old ones to maintain the old, "murky" sound, to maintain the original quality of the instrument?

But, yes: it is a good question: do we like the slightly worn-down sound of old instruments? I recalled talking to an old musician, we he states that the old Oberheim SEM modules sound somewhat dull today, while they sounded crisp and fresh when they were new. This could be because when they were new, most other sounds were somewhat mellower, especially the "moog sound" that the SEM was targeted as an extension to. Or it could be that in the years between we have had the digital revolution, and have become accustomed to shiny, highfrequency clinging digital synths, so in comparison an old, original SEM do sound somewhat duller than it used to do. Or it could be his memory, or he could be right that age do dampen some sparkle in electronic instruments, and recapping do return som original sparkle.

I do think a fully recapped PolySix will still sound warm. It is not all caps: it is the analog VCOs, filters and VCAs that makes the sound. And recapping, re-attaching cables and general cleaning really does the trick of getting rid of all kinds of intermittent problems.

Terje Winther

Den 3. des.. 2014 kl. 08.15 skrev jim@saltlands.com [PolySix]:

 

I know this is a tad off topic, but I'm wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about possible sonic negatives to doing this. I think of the recent video interview with the korg engineers who designed the ms-20, which was made and released as promo when the ms20 mini came out... The engineers mention in this interview that they think the ms 20 mini will only sound exactly like an original when it's been a few decades and the capacitors have aged.
So in this light, are we all in love with our aged capacitors? Or would a fully recapped polysix still sound warm?
Im considering doing this for the sake of clearing up stray issues now and in the future. I also am curious if it might even sound.. Better.
Of course it is assumed that recalibrations/tuning etc will then be needed. But couldn't a full scale bath like this be something very effective?



Re: [PolySix] fully recapping a vintage synth

2014-12-03 by <backshall1@bellsouth.net>

I’ve seen several vintage synth disasters from people with little or no soldering experience who decided to recap their synth just because somebody told them they should: too much heat so the copper traces separated from the board, polarized caps put in backwards, wrong values because they didn’t know how to read the code numbers. Most caps on an old synth work are working just fine, so you are replacing a lot of perfectly good parts. You really should have some detectable problem to target before deciding to replace any caps.
 
Don Backshall
 
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2014 2:49 AM
Subject: Re: [PolySix] fully recapping a vintage synth
 
 

This is of course much debated, but there are some general rules:

- First of all: remember that electrolytic caps do have a fairly short lifespan (compared to many other types of electronic parts). Some of them needs to be changed in older synths in order for the synths to work properly.
- I think it is fairly common knowlegde now that caps in the power supply and caps for bypassing can be changed without influencing the basic sound. In most cases it will bring back the sparkle in the sound and get rid of various types of problem, so yes: if you do like hum, cracle, noise and various other instabilities in your sound, there is no need to recap.  ;-)
- The real culpit is in the caps that are in the direct path of the sound. Often, these components have not been so hard pressed that they malfunction (or are at the border of failure), so they still work even if they are old, and sometimes it doesn´t even matter if they short-circut, because there will still be sound in your synth. Recapping these specific caps might interfere with the sound, but I think the changes are very, very slight nuances - nuances that are *less* than the natural variances between two equal synthesizers, like two PolySixes or two MS-20s.
- The issue border on a similar discussion regarding op-amps: should you change the old op-amps with better-speced op-amps to get high-quality sound, or should you keep the old ones to maintain the old, "murky" sound, to maintain the original quality of the instrument?
 
But, yes: it is a good question: do we like the slightly worn-down sound of old instruments? I recalled talking to an old musician, we he states that the old Oberheim SEM modules sound somewhat dull today, while they sounded crisp and fresh when they were new. This could be because when they were new, most other sounds were somewhat mellower, especially the "moog sound" that the SEM was targeted as an extension to. Or it could be that in the years between we have had the digital revolution, and have become accustomed to shiny, highfrequency clinging digital synths, so in comparison an old, original SEM do sound somewhat duller than it used to do. Or it could be his memory, or he could be right that age do dampen some sparkle in electronic instruments, and recapping do return som original sparkle.
 
I do think a fully recapped PolySix will still sound warm. It is not all caps: it is the analog VCOs, filters and VCAs that makes the sound. And recapping, re-attaching cables and general cleaning really does the trick of getting rid of all kinds of intermittent problems.
 
Terje Winther
 
Den 3. des.. 2014 kl. 08.15 skrev jim@saltlands.com [PolySix]:

 

I know this is a tad off topic, but I'm wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about possible sonic negatives to doing this. I think of the recent video interview with the korg engineers who designed the ms-20, which was made and released as promo when the ms20 mini came out... The engineers mention in this interview that they think the ms 20 mini will only sound exactly like an original when it's been a few decades and the capacitors have aged.
So in this light, are we all in love with our aged capacitors? Or would a fully recapped polysix still sound warm?
Im considering doing this for the sake of clearing up stray issues now and in the future. I also am curious if it might even sound.. Better.
Of course it is assumed that recalibrations/tuning etc will then be needed. But couldn't a full scale bath like this be something very effective?

 
 

Re: [PolySix] fully recapping a vintage synth

2014-12-03 by jim@saltlands.com

Understandable concern. This is a general question with the assumption that we're all knowing what we're doing, and with a curiosity specifically toward analog synths 30+ years old or so. 
I myself have done a lot of recapping doing tape machine restoration, so am comfortable doing full scale recap overhauls of units. 

My polysix has a couple minor sonic issues that creep up now and again, and sometimes i have the urge to just put all new caps in and go from there. Sometimes this ends up solving problems, and at worst it just spends a handful of hours of my own time and a few bucks on caps and you get a freshly capped machine.

One of the issues is I've got some strange grounding issue related to a multiplexer, i believe. It may be a faulty multiplexer or it may be a component connected to said multiplexer. The symptom is.. on a handful of pots, when i turn them they emit a sound like a square wave if turned at the right pace/quick enough. Sounds exactly like each digital point in the pots signal sent is somehow making this noise. So if you turn it slow, you can not hear it at all because the rate of it happening is low. https://soundcloud.com/circuitsynth/polysix-knob-sound

My other issue is more strange.. a high pitched sustained frequency arises sometimes in certain conditions unknown, and only goes away when you press either A, another note far away from the range of the previous note (ie up high or up low) or B, you hit the Chord Memory or Hold switch, sometimes one or the other. This pitch arrives once or twice every hour of playing. But it goes away fast if you hit the right thing.

This second problem is much more vague to me and perhaps a recap will address it. Could it be a decoupling cap somewhere failing? The pitch is the same exact every time. it's like 4kHz or 5kHz, around there. 

I also like synths to be as least noisy as possible, so this is another case for recapping. I've already bypassed the effects section with a direct output and it's a huge improvement, but i still hear a need for it to be even better. 
 

Re: [PolySix] fully recapping a vintage synth

2014-12-03 by Bob Stewart

High pitched whine could be old 4000 series logic chips. Similar sound ie. 4-5KHz whine arises on Yamaha CS50-80s, and is usually down to the logic chips on the CPU card.
 A recap (when done well) is never a bad thing. At least it will improve the sonic characteristics, at best it will yeild improvements in all aspects of operations. It's never a bad place to start...especially if the synth has spent a long time switched off, and forgotten.

On Wednesday, December 3, 2014, jim@saltlands.com [PolySix] <PolySix@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Understandable concern. This is a general question with the assumption that we're all knowing what we're doing, and with a curiosity specifically toward analog synths 30+ years old or so. 

I myself have done a lot of recapping doing tape machine restoration, so am comfortable doing full scale recap overhauls of units. 

My polysix has a couple minor sonic issues that creep up now and again, and sometimes i have the urge to just put all new caps in and go from there. Sometimes this ends up solving problems, and at worst it just spends a handful of hours of my own time and a few bucks on caps and you get a freshly capped machine.

One of the issues is I've got some strange grounding issue related to a multiplexer, i believe. It may be a faulty multiplexer or it may be a component connected to said multiplexer. The symptom is.. on a handful of pots, when i turn them they emit a sound like a square wave if turned at the right pace/quick enough. Sounds exactly like each digital point in the pots signal sent is somehow making this noise. So if you turn it slow, you can not hear it at all because the rate of it happening is low. https://soundcloud.com/circuitsynth/polysix-knob-sound

My other issue is more strange.. a high pitched sustained frequency arises sometimes in certain conditions unknown, and only goes away when you press either A, another note far away from the range of the previous note (ie up high or up low) or B, you hit the Chord Memory or Hold switch, sometimes one or the other. This pitch arrives once or twice every hour of playing. But it goes away fast if you hit the right thing.

This second problem is much more vague to me and perhaps a recap will address it. Could it be a decoupling cap somewhere failing? The pitch is the same exact every time. it's like 4kHz or 5kHz, around there. 

I also like synths to be as least noisy as possible, so this is another case for recapping. I've already bypassed the effects section with a direct output and it's a huge improvement, but i still hear a need for it to be even better. 
 

Re: [PolySix] fully recapping a vintage synth

2014-12-03 by <backshall1@bellsouth.net>

Yes, those old CMOS chips do seem to have a definite shelf life. I’ve seen a few dead 4051 chips in Polysix synths over the past few years. For that first problem, it sounds like it could be either on the mux side or the demux side and there are a couple of 4051 chips on each side. For such a similar sounding problem on both PW and Cutoff, I would expect it to be caused by a component that is common to both settings though, and PW goes through KLM-369 IC2 on the multiplexer side and KLM-367 IC19 on the demultiplexer side , while Cutoff goes through KLM-370 IC1 on the multiplexer side and KLM-367 IC18 on the demultiplexer side. Nothing common there. Are there other knobs affected? It might be a problem with the chip select logic, like an old 4011 getting slow.
 
Don Backshall
 
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2014 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [PolySix] fully recapping a vintage synth
 
 

High pitched whine could be old 4000 series logic chips. Similar sound ie. 4-5KHz whine arises on Yamaha CS50-80s, and is usually down to the logic chips on the CPU card.

A recap (when done well) is never a bad thing. At least it will improve the sonic characteristics, at best it will yeild improvements in all aspects of operations. It's never a bad place to start...especially if the synth has spent a long time switched off, and forgotten.

On Wednesday, December 3, 2014, jim@saltlands.com [PolySix] <PolySix@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Understandable concern. This is a general question with the assumption that we're all knowing what we're doing, and with a curiosity specifically toward analog synths 30+ years old or so.

I myself have done a lot of recapping doing tape machine restoration, so am comfortable doing full scale recap overhauls of units.
 
My polysix has a couple minor sonic issues that creep up now and again, and sometimes i have the urge to just put all new caps in and go from there. Sometimes this ends up solving problems, and at worst it just spends a handful of hours of my own time and a few bucks on caps and you get a freshly capped machine.
 
One of the issues is I've got some strange grounding issue related to a multiplexer, i believe. It may be a faulty multiplexer or it may be a component connected to said multiplexer. The symptom is.. on a handful of pots, when i turn them they emit a sound like a square wave if turned at the right pace/quick enough. Sounds exactly like each digital point in the pots signal sent is somehow making this noise. So if you turn it slow, you can not hear it at all because the rate of it happening is low. https://soundcloud.com/circuitsynth/polysix-knob-sound

My other issue is more strange.. a high pitched sustained frequency arises sometimes in certain conditions unknown, and only goes away when you press either A, another note far away from the range of the previous note (ie up high or up low) or B, you hit the Chord Memory or Hold switch, sometimes one or the other. This pitch arrives once or twice every hour of playing. But it goes away fast if you hit the right thing.

This second problem is much more vague to me and perhaps a recap will address it. Could it be a decoupling cap somewhere failing? The pitch is the same exact every time. it's like 4kHz or 5kHz, around there.

I also like synths to be as least noisy as possible, so this is another case for recapping. I've already bypassed the effects section with a direct output and it's a huge improvement, but i still hear a need for it to be even better.
 

Re: [PolySix] fully recapping a vintage synth

2014-12-03 by klosmon

Have you looked at any of these lines with a scope?  It's the fastest & easiest way to see what's going on, and narrow down the problem areas.
~G

On 12/3/2014 9:10 AM, backshall1@bellsouth.net [PolySix] wrote:
 

Yes, those old CMOS chips do seem to have a definite shelf life. I’ve seen a few dead 4051 chips in Polysix synths over the past few years. For that first problem, it sounds like it could be either on the mux side or the demux side and there are a couple of 4051 chips on each side. For such a similar sounding problem on both PW and Cutoff, I would expect it to be caused by a component that is common to both settings though, and PW goes through KLM-369 IC2 on the multiplexer side and KLM-367 IC19 on the demultiplexer side , while Cutoff goes through KLM-370 IC1 on the multiplexer side and KLM-367 IC18 on the demultiplexer side. Nothing common there. Are there other knobs affected? It might be a problem with the chip select logic, like an old 4011 getting slow.
 
Don Backshall
 
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2014 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [PolySix] fully recapping a vintage synth
 
 

High pitched whine could be old 4000 series logic chips. Similar sound ie. 4-5KHz whine arises on Yamaha CS50-80s, and is usually down to the logic chips on the CPU card.

A recap (when done well) is never a bad thing. At least it will improve the sonic characteristics, at best it will yeild improvements in all aspects of operations. It's never a bad place to start...especially if the synth has spent a long time switched off, and forgotten.

On Wednesday, December 3, 2014, jim@saltlands.com [PolySix] <PolySix@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Understandable concern. This is a general question with the assumption that we're all knowing what we're doing, and with a curiosity specifically toward analog synths 30+ years old or so.

I myself have done a lot of recapping doing tape machine restoration, so am comfortable doing full scale recap overhauls of units.
 
My polysix has a couple minor sonic issues that creep up now and again, and sometimes i have the urge to just put all new caps in and go from there. Sometimes this ends up solving problems, and at worst it just spends a handful of hours of my own time and a few bucks on caps and you get a freshly capped machine.
 
One of the issues is I've got some strange grounding issue related to a multiplexer, i believe. It may be a faulty multiplexer or it may be a component connected to said multiplexer. The symptom is.. on a handful of pots, when i turn them they emit a sound like a square wave if turned at the right pace/quick enough. Sounds exactly like each digital point in the pots signal sent is somehow making this noise. So if you turn it slow, you can not hear it at all because the rate of it happening is low. https://soundcloud.com/circuitsynth/polysix-knob-sound

My other issue is more strange.. a high pitched sustained frequency arises sometimes in certain conditions unknown, and only goes away when you press either A, another note far away from the range of the previous note (ie up high or up low) or B, you hit the Chord Memory or Hold switch, sometimes one or the other. This pitch arrives once or twice every hour of playing. But it goes away fast if you hit the right thing.

This second problem is much more vague to me and perhaps a recap will address it. Could it be a decoupling cap somewhere failing? The pitch is the same exact every time. it's like 4kHz or 5kHz, around there.

I also like synths to be as least noisy as possible, so this is another case for recapping. I've already bypassed the effects section with a direct output and it's a huge improvement, but i still hear a need for it to be even better.
 

Re: fully recapping a vintage synth

2014-12-03 by jim@saltlands.com

I did not yet dive in with the scope, but could do that in the next couple days.

Just tested symptoms again.. the pots which have the unusual sound are the following: 

- All 4 VCF pots: Cutoff, Res, EQ, and KBD
- EG Sustain
- MG Level
- PW/PWM 

If someone has a general suggestion of what to be expecting to look for with the scope at the components in relation to this list, i am all ears and very thankful. I have some circuitry and component knowledge but nothing too advanced yet, and this is a great chance for me to figure some more stuff out. I very much appreciate the help.

Re: [PolySix] Re: fully recapping a vintage synth

2014-12-03 by klosmon

The first thing to look at is the Data signal at pin 2 of CN11 on the CPU board.  This is the mulitplexed signal that's sent from the front panel to the two CV demulitplexing ICs (18 and 19).  You should see a sort of "stair-step" display;  the various components should rise & fall smoothly as you turn each pot.
If you see that, then the problem is most likely on the CPU board.
If not, it's probably on the front panel, in the mulitplexing stage.  Check the pots for +5 at one end, -5 at the other;  observe the center pin as you turn the pot -- should be a smooth continuous transition from -5 to +5.

If that checks out, look at the A,B and C signals on ICs 1 and 2 on the front panel;  these, along with the signal at pin 6 of each, control the mulitplexing of the eight pot lines.

~G

On 12/3/2014 10:06 AM, jim@saltlands.com [PolySix] wrote:
 

I did not yet dive in with the scope, but could do that in the next couple days.


Just tested symptoms again.. the pots which have the unusual sound are the following: 

- All 4 VCF pots: Cutoff, Res, EQ, and KBD
- EG Sustain
- MG Level
- PW/PWM 

If someone has a general suggestion of what to be expecting to look for with the scope at the components in relation to this list, i am all ears and very thankful. I have some circuitry and component knowledge but nothing too advanced yet, and this is a great chance for me to figure some more stuff out. I very much appreciate the help.

Re: fully recapping a vintage synth

2014-12-05 by jim@saltlands.com

Thanks very much for this rundown Greg. I look forward to doing this when I can in a couple days...will post the results!