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Re: Mellotron 4-track update

Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by lsf5275@aol.com

So I have been working on about a half dozen projects at once but I am  
nearly done with the 4-Track. I am going to post some more pictures on the 
Yahoo  site, but I wanted to share some information about what I have discovered 
along  the way.
 
As I said in a previous post, I think this could have been the best  
Mellotron yet if it had reached the production stage, but there are a bunch of  
screw-up that make no sense. It seems obvious that there were some shortcuts  
taken here and the way some of the components are assembled doesn't make  
sense.
 
I posted a little (self serving) video on You Tube that shows the method I  
used to align the tape head, which were all over the place when I really 
took a  good look at them. None of the techniques I used are applicable  to a 
M-400. I think they will prove to be correct, but I'm feeling my way along  
as I go.
 
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgDmI4tmQ8_ 
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgDmI4tmQ8) 
 
So here are some photos and their descriptions. I will post them on Yahoo  
later tonight.
 
 
          
Part of my shop. There  are 4 other Mellotrons down here, two behind me and 
two more in the  other room that are not in need of service (one being the 
M4000) The  pretty white one is #600, back for a new set of pinch rollers, a 
 little tune-up and a couple of mods. On the rack is the guts of  the (
formerly blue) Mellotron and the 4-track main  frame.
   
The rubber on all of  the pinch rollers is in good shape, but notice that 
the rubber is  not glued to the hub. So if someone were to really crank down 
the  set screw, the rollers become egg-shaped as they turn. I may get  some 
rubberized CA glue and try and glue them to the hubs. Martin  was right, 
they are cheap shit... but  soft.
   
The pressure pad rest  is so low that even when the key is released the 
tape is in constant  contact with the pressure pad. I removed the spacer on 
each end  between the rods and the frame. This solved the problem.  
  
The head block is  fixed. I used the piece of aluminum stock and the piece 
of spruce to  properly align all of the heads. Interestingly, Even if the 
center  heads are in perfect alignment with the tape guides, They are a  
little off (a few thousandths) near either end. I adjusted the head  height the 
best I could and I think it will be substantially better  than it was. You 
can learn more in the  video.
   
The heads are all  pushed against the aluminum rail to get them straight 
and to zero  the azimuths. The same was done on the back  set.
   
The piece of spruce  was stuck back though the metal take guides and used 
to align the  spill box.
   
Oddly, there were no  felt isolator pads on either the pressure pad springs 
or the key  springs. Every time you depressed a key you got a nice click,  
though. I will go back and individually adjust each pressure pad as  I 
install each key. The pressure pads were all bent up and no two  were the same. I 
made a some little wood jigs so I could get them  all the same. The short 
ones are bent a bit different at the tips  then the long ones so that they 
press properly against the  heads.

RE: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by Gary Brumm

Nice documentation Frank.  Was there any sign of wear on the heads?  Would finding a replacement head be a problem or is there an off the shelf
generic replacement available that would work?

Gary
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lsf5275@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:23 PM
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com; Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

So I have been working on about a half dozen projects at once but I am nearly done with the 4-Track. I am going to post some more pictures on the Yahoo site, but I wanted to share some information about what I have discovered along the way.

As I said in a previous post, I think this could have been the best Mellotron yet if it had reached the production stage, but there are a bunch of screw-up that make no sense. It seems obvious that there were some shortcuts taken here and the way some of the components are assembled doesn't make sense.

I posted a little (self serving) video on You Tube that shows the method I used to align the tape head, which were all over the place when I really took a good look at them. None of the techniques I used are applicable to a M-400. I think they will prove to be correct, but I'm feeling my way along as I go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgDmI4tmQ8

So here are some photos and their descriptions. I will post them on Yahoo later tonight.


[cid:image002.jpg@01CA630E.BD145A00]

Part of my shop. There are 4 other Mellotrons down here, two behind me and two more in the other room that are not in need of service (one being the M4000) The pretty white one is #600, back for a new set of pinch rollers, a little tune-up and a couple of mods. On the rack is the guts of the (formerly blue) Mellotron and the 4-track main frame.


[cid:image004.jpg@01CA630E.BD145A00]

The rubber on all of the pinch rollers is in good shape, but notice that the rubber is not glued to the hub. So if someone were to really crank down the set screw, the rollers become egg-shaped as they turn. I may get some rubberized CA glue and try and glue them to the hubs. Martin was right, they are cheap shit... but soft.


[cid:image006.jpg@01CA630E.BD145A00]

The pressure pad rest is so low that even when the key is released the tape is in constant contact with the pressure pad. I removed the spacer on each end between the rods and the frame. This solved the problem.


[cid:image008.jpg@01CA630E.BD145A00]

The head block is fixed. I used the piece of aluminum stock and the piece of spruce to properly align all of the heads. Interestingly, Even if the center heads are in perfect alignment with the tape guides, They are a little off (a few thousandths) near either end. I adjusted the head height the best I could and I think it will be substantially better than it was. You can learn more in the video.


[cid:image010.jpg@01CA630E.BD145A00]

The heads are all pushed against the aluminum rail to get them straight and to zero the azimuths. The same was done on the back set.


[cid:image012.jpg@01CA630E.BD145A00]

The piece of spruce was stuck back though the metal take guides and used to align the spill box.


[cid:image014.jpg@01CA630E.BD145A00]

Oddly, there were no felt isolator pads on either the pressure pad springs or the key springs. Every time you depressed a key you got a nice click, though. I will go back and individually adjust each pressure pad as I install each key. The pressure pads were all bent up and no two were the same. I made a some little wood jigs so I could get them all the same. The short ones are bent a bit different at the tips then the long ones so that they press properly against the heads.

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by lsf5275@aol.com

The tape heads look to be in excellent condition. They were manufactured by 
 Michigan Magnetics, who are still in business. Their web site claims that 
they  make two and four track tape heads, so I imagine that comparable 
products may be  had. I also imagine that their head technology has advanced 
since then. There  are no descriptions or prices on their web site. It says that 
you have to  contact "sales" to for product information and data sheets.
 
 
In a message dated 11/11/2009 11:37:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
gabru@comsec.net writes:

Nice documentation Frank.  Was  there any sign of wear on the heads?  Would 
finding a replacement head be  a problem or is there an off the shelf  
generic  replacement available that would work?

RE: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by Gary Brumm

I can't wait to hear it when you're done!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lsf5275@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:56 PM
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update


The tape heads look to be in excellent condition. They were manufactured by Michigan Magnetics, who are still in business. Their web site claims that they make two and four track tape heads, so I imagine that comparable products may be had. I also imagine that their head technology has advanced since then. There are no descriptions or prices on their web site. It says that you have to contact "sales" to for product information and data sheets.

In a message dated 11/11/2009 11:37:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gabru@comsec.net<mailto:gabru@comsec.net> writes:
Nice documentation Frank.  Was there any sign of wear on the heads?  Would finding a replacement head be a problem or is there an off the shelf
generic replacement available that would work?

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by lsf5275@aol.com

Me neither. I can't do any more until the new tapes come. Otherwise, I  
finished all the mechanicals tonight. I may have to service some of  the 
electronics or adjust the motor, so I have a few hours of work left but I  want to 
get the new tapes in it and see what I have to work with.
 
I can tell you this, the keyboard is very simple compared to an M-400.  
However, the stamped metal frame was bent somewhat and the I had to rebend 
parts  of it to get it back right (again?) I have spent nearly twice as many 
hours on  it as I planned and the amount of time I estimated to get this far 
was a  fantasy. But it is coming along.
 
 
In a message dated 11/11/2009 11:59:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
gabru@comsec.net writes:

I can’t wait to hear it when you’re  done!

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by sdavmor

lsf5275@aol.com wrote:
>  
> 
> Me neither. I can't do any more until the new tapes come. Otherwise, I 
> finished all the mechanicals tonight. I may have to service some of the 
> electronics or adjust the motor, so I have a few hours of work left but 
> I want to get the new tapes in it and see what I have to work with.
>  
> I can tell you this, the keyboard is very simple compared to an M-400. 
> However, the stamped metal frame was bent somewhat and the I had to 
> rebend parts of it to get it back right (again?) I have spent nearly 
> twice as many hours on it as I planned and the amount of time I 
> estimated to get this far was a fantasy. But it is coming along.
>  
> In a message dated 11/11/2009 11:59:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
> gabru@comsec.net writes:
> 
>     I can’t wait to hear it when you’re done!

lol!  it must be love!
-- 
Cheers, SDM -- a 21st Century Schizoid Man
Systems Theory music project: <www.systemstheory.net>
on MySpace: <www.myspace.com/systemstheory>
on GarageBand: <www.garageband.com/systemstheory>
on Last FM: <www.last.fm/music/Systems+Theory>
on CDBaby: CDBaby <www.cdbaby.com/all/systemstheory>
get "Codetalkers" *free* at <www.mikedickson.org.uk/codetalkers>
NP: nowt

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by Lee Richards

this sounds like a TRUE Artist.
Lee


lsf5275@aol.com wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>  
>
> Me neither. I can't do any more until the new tapes come. Otherwise, I 
> finished all the mechanicals tonight. I may have to service some of 
> the electronics or adjust the motor, so I have a few hours of work 
> left but I want to get the new tapes in it and see what I have to work 
> with.
>  
> I can tell you this, the keyboard is very simple compared to an M-400. 
> However, the stamped metal frame was bent somewhat and the I had to 
> rebend parts of it to get it back right (again?) I have spent nearly 
> twice as many hours on it as I planned and the amount of time I 
> estimated to get this far was a fantasy. But it is coming along.
>  
> In a message dated 11/11/2009 11:59:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
> gabru@comsec.net writes:
>
>     I can\u2019t wait to hear it when you\u2019re done!
>
>

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by lsf5275@aol.com

It belongs to a customer. It'll be done when it's done. I may never do  
another one of these, but this one is going to be as good as I can make it. I  
wonder if the 4th one was different from this one.
 
 
In a message dated 11/12/2009 12:44:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
sdavmor@systemstheory.net writes:

lol!  it must be love!

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by tronbros@aol.com

The problems Frank has encountered are exactly the same on the 4 Track  we 
restored except we also had a bent capstan and none parallel parts to 
contend  with.  The capstan and the tape storage box were at an angle to each  
other!  Having said that, the idea was excellent and if they had built 10  or 
more, the design would have been honed and set in stone.  It just never  had 
a a chance sadly.
 
Best,
 
Martin 
 
Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic 
_www.mellotronics.com_ (http://www.mellotronics.com/) 

M4000 tour de force - UK trailer _http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/_ 
(http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/) 
US  Sales East: Jimmy Moore_  JMoore6397@aol.com_ 
(http://JMoore6397@aol.com/) 
US Sales West: Paul Cox_ pjc56@earthlink_ (mailto:pjc56@earthlink)  
Chloe Smith:  _myspace.com/chloesmithmusic_ 
(http://myspace.com/chloesmithmusic)

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by kinchmusic@aol.com

Nice job Frank! 
Thanks for the video. It's great to see one of these up close. Are you going to do another vid when the beast is up and running so we can hear it?
Martin. What's the situation regarding replacement tapes for one of these?

Nice...................!
Andy K
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: tronbros@aol.com
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 7:52
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update


 




The problems Frank has encountered are exactly the same on the 4 Track we restored except we also had a bent capstan and none parallel parts to contend with.  The capstan and the tape storage box were at an angle to each other!  Having said that, the idea was excellent and if they had built 10 or more, the design would have been honed and set in stone.  It just never had a a chance sadly.
 
Best,
 
Martin 
 
Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic 
www.mellotronics.com
M4000 tour de force - UK trailer M4000 tour de force - UK trailer http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/M4000 tour de force - UK trailer  http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/
US Sales East: Jimmy Moore JMoore6397@aol.com
US Sales West: Paul Cox pjc56@earthlink 
Chloe Smith: myspace.com/chloesmithmusic


The problems Frank has encountered are exactly the same on the 4 Track we restored except we also had a bent capstan and none parallel parts to contend with.  The capstan and the tape storage box were at an angle to each other!  Having said that, the idea was excellent and if they had built 10 or more, the design would have been honed and set in stone.  It just never had a a chance sadly.
 
Best,
 
Martin 
 
Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic 
www.mellotronics.com
M4000 tour de force - UK trailer M4000 tour de force - UK trailer http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/M4000 tour de force - UK trailer  http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/
US Sales East: Jimmy Moore JMoore6397@aol.com
US Sales West: Paul Cox pjc56@earthlink 
Chloe Smith: myspace.com/chloesmithmusic

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by tronbros@aol.com

In a message dated 12/11/2009 08:31:02 GMT Standard Time,  
kinchmusic@aol.com writes:

Martin. What's the situation regarding replacement tapes for one of  these?



No probs.  They are commercial azimuth as oppsoed to mellotron  azimuth.  
We have a 4 track recorder and EMI tape stock.
 
Best,
 
M
 
Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic 
_www.mellotronics.com_ (http://www.mellotronics.com/) 

M4000 tour de force - UK trailer _http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/_ 
(http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/) 
US  Sales East: Jimmy Moore_  JMoore6397@aol.com_ 
(http://JMoore6397@aol.com/) 
US Sales West: Paul Cox_ pjc56@earthlink_ (mailto:pjc56@earthlink)  
Chloe Smith:  _myspace.com/chloesmithmusic_ 
(http://myspace.com/chloesmithmusic)

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by lsf5275@aol.com

When it is done, I will make a video of it being played.
 
 
In a message dated 11/12/2009 3:30:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
kinchmusic@aol.com writes:

Thanks for the video. It's great to see one of these up close. Are you  
going to do another vid when the beast is up and running so we can hear  it?
Martin. What's the situation regarding replacement tapes for one of  these?

RE: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by Gary Brumm

As far as the new tapes go are they going to be dubs of the original 4 track, M400, etc. or something recorded from scratch?

From: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lsf5275@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:15 PM
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

Me neither. I can't do any more until the new tapes come. Otherwise, I finished all the mechanicals tonight. I may have to service some of the electronics or adjust the motor, so I have a few hours of work left but I want to get the new tapes in it and see what I have to work with.

I can tell you this, the keyboard is very simple compared to an M-400. However, the stamped metal frame was bent somewhat and the I had to rebend parts of it to get it back right (again?) I have spent nearly twice as many hours on it as I planned and the amount of time I estimated to get this far was a fantasy. But it is coming along.

In a message dated 11/11/2009 11:59:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gabru@comsec.net writes:

I can’t wait to hear it when you’re done!

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by Bruce Daily

Nice job, Frank!  What voices will be on the initial tape frame?
 
   It just dawned on me: we are truely part of an elite group.  Just the mention of the number "35" will make our backs ache!
 
   -Bruce D.


--- On Wed, 11/11/09, lsf5275@aol.com <lsf5275@aol.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: lsf5275@aol.com <lsf5275@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:55 PM


  




The tape heads look to be in excellent condition. They were manufactured by Michigan Magnetics, who are still in business. Their web site claims that they make two and four track tape heads, so I imagine that comparable products may be had. I also imagine that their head technology has advanced since then. There are no descriptions or prices on their web site. It says that you have to contact "sales" to for product information and data sheets.
 

In a message dated 11/11/2009 11:37:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gabru@comsec. net writes:

Nice documentation Frank.  Was there any sign of wear on the heads?  Would finding a replacement head be a problem or is there an off the shelf 
generic replacement available that would work?

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by lsf5275@aol.com

The owner has ordered two sets of tapes. On one set will be the standard  
Mark II Strings, 8 choir, mixed brass and, I think, St. John's Wood organ. On 
 the second set, I think he will opt for some less well known voices.  
Incidentally, I built that wooden frame to allow me to work standing up. I can  
lace frames, work on it, azimuth heads, set keys or test different 
components  without having to stoop and peer into the cabinet. I can even play them 
while  they are out of their cabinets. It also saves bench room and allows me 
to roll  them from place to place in the shop
 
 
In a message dated 11/12/2009 10:47:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
pocotron@yahoo.com writes:

Nice job, Frank!  What voices will be on the initial tape  frame?
 
   It just dawned on me: we are truely part of an elite  group.  Just the 
mention of the number "35" will make our backs  ache!
 
   -Bruce D.

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-12 by kinchmusic@aol.com

Wow. Wasn't expecting that!
:-)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: tronbros@aol.com
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 9:04
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update


 






In a message dated 12/11/2009 08:31:02 GMT Standard Time, kinchmusic@aol.com writes:

Martin. What's the situation regarding replacement tapes for one of these?



No probs.  They are commercial azimuth as oppsoed to mellotron azimuth.  We have a 4 track recorder and EMI tape stock.
 
Best,
 
M
 
Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic 
www.mellotronics.com
M4000 tour de force - UK trailer M4000 tour de force - UK trailer http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/M4000 tour de force - UK trailer  http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/
US Sales East: Jimmy Moore JMoore6397@aol.com
US Sales West: Paul Cox pjc56@earthlink 
Chloe Smith: myspace.com/chloesmithmusic




In a message dated 12/11/2009 08:31:02 GMT Standard Time, kinchmusic@aol.com writes:

Martin. What's the situation regarding replacement tapes for one of these?



No probs.  They are commercial azimuth as oppsoed to mellotron azimuth.  We have a 4 track recorder and EMI tape stock.
 
Best,
 
M
 
Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic 
www.mellotronics.com
M4000 tour de force - UK trailer M4000 tour de force - UK trailer http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/M4000 tour de force - UK trailer  http://thebox-movie.warnerbros.com/
US Sales East: Jimmy Moore JMoore6397@aol.com
US Sales West: Paul Cox pjc56@earthlink 
Chloe Smith: myspace.com/chloesmithmusic

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-13 by Bruce Daily

Hey Frank-
   Great updates.
   I built a bench too.  It's solid & square, but not as tall as yours.  It sure helped when installing and aligning the capstan/flywheel in the bearings.
 
   -Bruce D.


--- On Thu, 11/12/09, lsf5275@aol.com <lsf5275@aol.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: lsf5275@aol.com <lsf5275@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 9:58 AM


  




The owner has ordered two sets of tapes. On one set will be the standard Mark II Strings, 8 choir, mixed brass and, I think, St. John's Wood organ. On the second set, I think he will opt for some less well known voices. Incidentally, I built that wooden frame to allow me to work standing up. I can lace frames, work on it, azimuth heads, set keys or test different components without having to stoop and peer into the cabinet. I can even play them while they are out of their cabinets. It also saves bench room and allows me to roll them from place to place in the shop
 

In a message dated 11/12/2009 10:47:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pocotron@yahoo. com writes:

Nice job, Frank!  What voices will be on the initial tape frame?
 
   It just dawned on me: we are truely part of an elite group.  Just the mention of the number "35" will make our backs ache!
 
   -Bruce D.

Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update

2009-11-13 by kinchmusic@aol.com

Makes you wonder just how many moreTrons are left out there that are still in need of restoration.
I think it's marvelous what you are all doing.
Big respect.
Andy K
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Daily <pocotron@yahoo.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 5:28
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update


 








Hey Frank-
   Great updates.
   I built a bench too.  It's solid & square, but not as tall as yours.  It sure helped when installing and aligning the capstan/flywheel in the bearings.
 
   -Bruce D.


--- On Thu, 11/12/09, lsf5275@aol.com <lsf5275@aol.com> wrote:


From: lsf5275@aol.com <lsf5275@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Mellotron 4-track update
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 9:58 AM


  


The owner has ordered two sets of tapes. On one set will be the standard Mark II Strings, 8 choir, mixed brass and, I think, St. John's Wood organ. On the second set, I think he will opt for some less well known voices. Incidentally, I built that wooden frame to allow me to work standing up. I can lace frames, work on it, azimuth heads, set keys or test different components without having to stoop and peer into the cabinet. I can even play them while they are out of their cabinets. It also saves bench room and allows me to roll them from place to place in the shop
 

In a message dated 11/12/2009 10:47:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pocotron@yahoo. com writes:

Nice job, Frank!  What voices will be on the initial tape frame?
 
   It just dawned on me: we are truely part of an elite group.  Just the mention of the number "35" will make our backs ache!
 
   -Bruce D.

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