The Mellotron Group

Boy, that's unfortunate. Whoever trondave is (Will Davis), he could have  
rebutted in a more constructive manner. To outright call someone a liar and 
then  to state categorically that no one in the entire Universe who has ever 
played a  Birotron would ever think the action is poor is a pretty broad 
claim. He then  recommended that we Google Birotron keyboard action. That's 
just plain weird. I  don't think anyone on this list owes trondave an apology. 
Perhaps he might  readdress his feelings here and tell us what he knows, 
thereby supporting his  position as he (and I) challenged Mike to do (and which 
he did), then we can  move on.
 
Should we all chalk this one up to cabin fever?
 
Last thought. Perhaps Martin can ask Ryo why he is selling it.
 
Frank
 
 
In a message dated 4/14/2009 8:37:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com writes:

If  (is it Will Davis?) is actually Dave Biro, knowing him as I  do, I can 
personally guarantee that you will never, ever, ever, ever,  ever, hear the 
complete beginning to end Birotron story from him on this  list - even if 
apologies are made. He'll never share it if the exchange  here is as bad as it 
*appears* to be, and that he'll probably request I say no  more about 
Birotrons here as  well.


**************Why pay full price? Check out this month's deals on the new 
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Hi Chris,
 
I've been emailing Nic Lewis off-list. He apparently used to build  
Birotrons at the factory... Nice guy. I used to correspond with him a few years  
back. All you missed was a few bitches having their periods.
 
Frank
 
 
In a message dated 4/15/2009 12:49:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com writes:

 
 


Hi Frank:
 
I haven't read anything in order yet but thanks for giving me a rundown.  
I'll read the posts in order tonight. Geez - I've been away in BC for 2  
months and I return to this?  Wow!!
 
It doesn't sound like the Dave Biro I know. He was always jovial with me  
and very private about the Birotron story, but I suppose it could be  if he 
was riled by something.  Is the guy still on the list? Maybe it's  someone 
else who worked there?
 
 
Well if everyone believes in and stands by their opinions, then no one  
should have to apologize for them. We're all adults and were free to  disagree 
from time to time. I'd say the history of the list is rife with "ex -  
zamples"!!
 
But yes, we do have to be careful how we word things though. F***ing  Tact 
is always best mutha f***a .  : - )   Gawddamned Mutha  F***in' Cabin Fever 
it could be...eh - specially he-ya in da noeth of  Kanada!! 
 
But a bigger concern and the real point we're here - if we  collectively 
don't support these instruments, share resources, and help  each other out - 
we doom them to extinction. That's how I feel about all  of them now.
 
Sample libraries are not a replacement for the sound, feel, electronic  
smell, or sight of the real thing, just as these things  aren't replacements 
for an orchestra.
 
 
Okay lecture over - Now I'm goin to slap ma bitch and spank mah  monkey!
 Word to y'all :)
 
Later dudes!:)
 
 
 
 
On 4/14/09, _lsf5275@aol.lsf_ (mailto:lsf5275@aol.com)  <_lsf5275@aol.lsf_ 
(mailto:lsf5275@aol.com) > wrote:  
 
 
 


Boy, that's unfortunate. Whoever trondave is (Will Davis), he could  have 
rebutted in a more constructive manner. To outright call someone a liar  and 
then to state categorically that no one in the entire Universe who has  ever 
played a Birotron would ever think the action is poor is a pretty broad  
claim. He then recommended that we Google Birotron keyboard action. That's  
just plain weird. I don't think anyone on this list owes trondave an  apology. 
Perhaps he might readdress his feelings here and tell us what he  knows, 
thereby supporting his position as he (and I) challenged Mike to do  (and 
which he did), then we can move on.
 
Should we all chalk this one up to cabin fever?
 
Last thought. Perhaps Martin can ask Ryo why he is selling it.
 
Frank
 
 
In a message dated 4/14/2009 8:37:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
_unobtainiumkeys@unobtaini_ (mailto:unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com)  writes:

If  (is it Will Davis?) is actually Dave Biro, knowing him  as I do, I can 
personally guarantee that you will never, ever, ever,  ever, ever, hear the 
complete beginning to end Birotron story from  him on this list - even if 
apologies are made. He'll never share it  if the exchange here is as bad as it 
*appears* to be, and that he'll  probably request I say no more about 
Birotrons here as  well.



 
____________________________________
Why pay full price? _Check out this month's deals on the new AOL  Shopping_ 
(http://shopping.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntinstor00000001) .  












**************Why pay full price? Check out this month's deals on the new 
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In a message dated 4/15/2009 2:38:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
lsf5275@aol.com writes:

 
 


Hi Chris,
 
I've been emailing Nic Lewis off-list. He apparently used to build  
Birotrons at the factory... Nice guy. I used to correspond with him a few  years 
back. All you missed was a few bitches having their periods.
 
Frank
 
 
In a message dated 4/15/2009 12:49:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
unobtainiumkeys@In a message date

 
 


Hi Frank:
 
I haven't read anything in order yet but thanks for giving me a  rundown. 
I'll read the posts in order tonight. Geez - I've been away in BC  for 2 
months and I return to this?  Wow!!
 
It doesn't sound like the Dave Biro I know. He was always jovial with  me 
and very private about the Birotron story, but I suppose it  could be if he 
was riled by something.  Is the guy still on the list?  Maybe it's someone 
else who worked there?
 
 
Well if everyone believes in and stands by their opinions, then no one  
should have to apologize for them. We're all adults and were free to  disagree 
from time to time. I'd say the history of the list is rife with "ex  - 
zamples"!!
 
But yes, we do have to be careful how we word things though.  F***ing Tact 
is always best mutha f***a .  : - )   Gawddamned  Mutha F***in' Cabin Fever 
it could be...eh - specially he-ya in da  noeth of Kanada!! 
 
But a bigger concern and the real point we're here - if we  collectively 
don't support these instruments, share resources, and help  each other out - 
we doom them to extinction. That's how I feel about  all of them now.
 
Sample libraries are not a replacement for the sound, feel, electronic  
smell, or sight of the real thing, just as these things  aren't replacements 
for an orchestra.
 
 
Okay lecture over - Now I'm goin to slap ma bitch and spank mah  monkey!
 Word to y'all :)
 
Later dudes!:)
 
 
 
 
On 4/14/09, _lsf5275@aol.lsf_ (mailto:lsf5275@aol.com)  <_lsf5275@aol.lsf_ 
(mailto:lsf5275@aol.com) > wrote:  
 
 
 


Boy, that's unfortunate. Whoever trondave is (Will Davis), he could  have 
rebutted in a more constructive manner. To outright call someone a  liar and 
then to state categorically that no one in the entire Universe  who has ever 
played a Birotron would ever think the action is poor is a  pretty broad 
claim. He then recommended that we Google Birotron keyboard  action. That's 
just plain weird. I don't think anyone on this list owes  trondave an apology. 
Perhaps he might readdress his feelings here and tell  us what he knows, 
thereby supporting his position as he (and I) challenged  Mike to do (and 
which he did), then we can move on.
 
Should we all chalk this one up to cabin fever?
 
Last thought. Perhaps Martin can ask Ryo why he is selling it.
 
Frank
 
 
In a message dated 4/14/2009 8:37:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
_unobtainiumkeys@unobtaini_ (mailto:unobtainiumkeys@gmail.com)  writes:

If  (is it Will Davis?) is actually Dave Biro, knowing  him as I do, I can 
personally guarantee that you will never, ever,  ever, ever, ever, hear the 
complete beginning to end Birotron story  from him on this list - even if 
apologies are made. He'll never  share it if the exchange here is as bad as it 
*appears* to be, and that  he'll probably request I say no more about 
Birotrons here as  well.



 
____________________________________
Why pay full price? _Check out this month's deals on the new AOL  Shopping_ 
(http://shopping.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntinstor00000001) .  















 
____________________________________
Why pay full price? _Check out this  month's deals on the new AOL Shopping_ 
(http://shopping.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntinstor00000001) .  




**************Why pay full price? Check out this month's deals on the new 
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--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Chris Dale <unobtainiumkeys@...> wrote:

> I'm not going to add to what appears to be an argument, so I'll just say my
> personal experience and knowledge of the Birotron is this:

Lots of good info; thanks, Chris.

A coulple of things occurred to me while reading this though, and I'm surprised it hasn't come up before in discussions regarding this instrument, unless I managed to miss it. Perhaps you could address them for me.

1/ How long are the loops in a BiroTron cartridge?

2/ What happens at the loop point? Subsidiary question: Is the physical loop point the same as the recorded one? Even with a perfect splice there will have to be a noticeable change somewhere.

The second question relates to what I perceive as a major flaw in the playability of this instrument: If one is playing a sustained note when the recorded loop point passes, is there an audible clunk as though the note were being started from the beginning? While this would be bad enough with a single note, I can't even imagine the kind of train-wreck that would occur when playing a chord.

As has been mentioned with regard to the Mellotron, it is the attack at the beginning of a note that defines the "instrument" being played. If this happens part-way through, the result would sound, to put it bluntly, rather stupid I would think.

Please let me know, so that I can sleep peacefully in my bed tonight (or wherever I end up).

Jim Bailey

I will respond to these questions to the best of my ability, but I am 
happy to be correct if my ageing mind has introduced erroneous information
At 22:13 15/04/2009, Jim Bailey wrote:


>--- In 
><mailto:newmellotrongroup%40yahoogroups.com>newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, 
>Chris Dale <unobtainiumkeys@...> wrote:
>
> > I'm not going to add to what appears to be an argument, so I'll just say my
> > personal experience and knowledge of the Birotron is this:
>
>Lots of good info; thanks, Chris.
>
>A coulple of things occurred to me while reading this though, and 
>I'm surprised it hasn't come up before in discussions regarding this 
>instrument, unless I managed to miss it. Perhaps you could address them for me.
>
>1/ How long are the loops in a BiroTron cartridge?

This did vary, as we obtained cartridges form different sources but I 
believe the majority were about 12 minutes - this being the norm for 
a standard audio cartridge, i.e. 8  tracks, thus 4 stereo tracks and 
4 * 12 being adequate for an album of the time. As I recall there 
were some purchased specifically from manufacturers to Birotronics 
spec, and I do not know what length they might have been. I will find out.


>2/ What happens at the loop point?

I suspect there would have been some audio effect there, but given 
the length of tape and average use it is not something that would 
occur very often at all, and I do not know if this was ever commented 
on, but I doubt it.

>Subsidiary question: Is the physical loop point the same as the recorded one?

No, not at all. The recordings made for Birotronics (i can't comment 
on other later recordings) were recorded on to two loops and manually 
faded back and forth to avoid the splice - I did read somewhere that 
this added an 'ethereal' (or "unrealistic", depending on your point 
of view) feeling to the sound.

>Even with a perfect splice there will have to be a noticeable change 
>somewhere.

See above.


>The second question relates to what I perceive as a major flaw in 
>the playability of this instrument: If one is playing a sustained 
>note when the recorded loop point passes, is there an audible clunk 
>as though the note were being started from the beginning?

No, the fading of the original recordings made it such that this 
didn't occur, but consider the comments above.

>While this would be bad enough with a single note, I can't even 
>imagine the kind of train-wreck that would occur when playing a chord.

LOL - it would be, but the only issue would be the splice in the 
cartridge loop, the rest has been taken care of. Now the way the 
keyboard is associated with the tapes is not 1:1 (or, I suppose, 
4:4,). Adjacent notes are spread across different tapes, so for 
example A is track 1, tape 1, B is track 3 tape 1, C is track 2 tape 
2 etc. (these are not the actual spreads, they are give a suggestion 
of the way the keyboard to tape mapping worked, because I'm too lazy 
to go and check on my Birotron at this time of night). Now here's the 
theory, and again I do not claim to be an expert but state what I 
believe to be the case. Spreading the notes across the tapes this 
way, when carefully considered, can significantly reduce unwanted 
harmonics resulting from crosstalk, or bleeding between adjacent 
tracks. It also avoids your train crash, the chance of any chord 
being played when all loop splices are in the same position is so 
remote as to be negligible.


>As has been mentioned with regard to the Mellotron, it is the attack 
>at the beginning of a note that defines the "instrument" being 
>played. If this happens part-way through, the result would sound, to 
>put it bluntly, rather stupid I would think.

It would indeed be stupid, but it doesn't happen because of the way 
the tapes are recorded. This is probably a defining difference in the 
two machines.

Depending upon the application of the machine though, I cannot agree 
that the attack is the sole defining factor of an instrument alone. 
The attack certainly prepares out cognitive senses as to what is to 
come, if we have had knowledge of that instrument's sound previously, 
and possibly by losing that attack a sound more akin to early 
electronic pianos, some organs and early synths will be created. But 
for many that is, or was, not an issue, the finery of concert quality 
was not need by Slade, and I don't think Chas and Dave would have 
looked comfortable around a Steinway.

I must say though that I am merely expressing my opinion, I make no 
claim other that to have had the experience of building the few 
Birotrons ever made, and to have an interest in them for that reason. 
If anything I have stated above is incorrect and any party wishes to 
correct me, I am, of course happy to receive their constructive criticism.


>Please let me know, so that I can sleep peacefully in my bed tonight 
>(or wherever I end up).

Sleep well, you have little or naught to worry about. But if you end 
up anywhere other than home we will tell 
your:-  partner/cat/dog/neighbour/drinking buddy*
*delete as appropriate.

All the best
Nic

--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Nic Lewis <nic@...> wrote:
>
> I will respond to these questions to the best of my ability, but I am 
> happy to be correct if my ageing mind has introduced erroneous information

Thanks for your reply, Nic. It did indeed clear up the questions I had. Some quite clever responses to seemingly insurmountable technical hurdles. Excellent example of an instrument that "could have been..." if only time had been more kind.

Jim Bailey

--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, "will davis" <trondave@...> wrote:
>
> Jim...My heart was warmed by your response to Nic.  You have no idea how much thought went into this project, and from my point of view none of it was profit driven.....just the opposite. If we could provide a (hopefully better) instrument AND save the keyboard player a lot of money, then sales would be there. Like, a replacement tape would cost $5 and you could replace it in the middle of a live performance with one hand...or you could just copy the tape yourself and save the 5 bucks !!  I never wanted to make money on after sales. If you have any other questions, let us know !!   dave

The best such devices are precisely those which *aren't* made with profit in mind. The art has to come first.

Oh, and I don't know why it didn't occur to me before, but this seems like the perfect device for Don Joyce of Negativland! For those who are unaware of those folks, he uses old radio spot-cart machines with little samples on each one and he keeps swapping them in and out during a performance. Wonderful to watch, but incredibly labour-intensive.

Jim Bailey

Ah yes...we're down to 10-80 and the letter 'G'....

James Bailey wrote:
> Oh, and I don't know why it didn't occur to me before, but this seems 
> like the perfect device for Don Joyce of Negativland! For those who 
> are unaware of those folks, he uses old radio spot-cart machines with 
> little samples on each one and he keeps swapping them in and out 
> during a performance. Wonderful to watch, but incredibly labour-intensive.
>
>
> Jim Bailey
>
> 

-- 
Mike Dickson, Edinburgh

Free Music Project: http://www.last.fm/music/Mike+Dickson
Or http://www.mikedickson.org.uk/