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2012-04-24 by Andy Kinch
... becomes a pretty white swan! With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! Respect and thanks to Martin and John. Bravo! I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. Andy K Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com
2012-04-24 by lsf5275@aol.com
Sweet! Nice work from Streetly! Andy, is it an M400 cabinet or an M4000 cabinet? Frank In a message dated 4/24/2012 7:49:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kinchmusic@aol.com writes: ... becomes a pretty white swan! With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! Respect and thanks to Martin and John. Bravo! I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. Andy K
2012-04-24 by Kinchmusic
M400 Frank. Has to be a bit of a rarity. Works fantastic! Andy Kinch
On 24 Apr 2012, at 19:39, lsf5275@aol.com wrote: > Sweet! Nice work from Streetly! > > Andy, is it an M400 cabinet or an M4000 cabinet? > > Frank > > In a message dated 4/24/2012 7:49:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kinchmusic@aol.com writes: > > > ... becomes a pretty white swan! > > With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! > > Respect and thanks to Martin and John. > > Bravo! > > I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. > > Andy K >
2012-04-24 by Vance Pomeroy
... becomes a pretty white swan!With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new!Respect and thanks to Martin and John.Bravo!I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later.Andy K
2012-04-25 by tronbros
To be truthful, John did the cabinet refit, I was just the delivery boy and tweaker of the settings! Best, M mellotronics.co.uk
On 24 Apr 2012, at 23:45, Vance Pomeroy <vance@juniperpacific.com> wrote: > Andy - > Beautiful! > Martin and John are magicians > > On 4/24/2012 4:48 AM, Andy Kinch wrote: >> >> ... becomes a pretty white swan! >> >> With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! >> >> Respect and thanks to Martin and John. >> >> Bravo! >> >> I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. >> >> Andy K >> <mime-attachment.jpg> >> >> >> >> Andy Kinch >> kinchmusic@aol.com
2012-04-25 by Andy Kinch
So what did you think of the Strawbs CD? A Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com
-----Original Message----- From: tronbros <tronbros@aol.com> To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:48 Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling To be truthful, John did the cabinet refit, I was just the delivery boy and tweaker of the settings! Best, M mellotronics.co.uk On 24 Apr 2012, at 23:45, Vance Pomeroy <vance@juniperpacific.com> wrote: Andy - Beautiful! Martin and John are magicians On 4/24/2012 4:48 AM, Andy Kinch wrote: ... becomes a pretty white swan! With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! Respect and thanks to Martin and John. Bravo! I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. Andy K <mime-attachment.jpg> Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com
2012-04-25 by tronbros
Just terrible! JB hated too. What ever possesed them to revisit one of their most popular albums? The string sounds and piano setting are from 80s synth and don't belong. And Dave has become a characature or himself vocally. M mellotronics.co.uk
On 25 Apr 2012, at 08:50, Andy Kinch <kinchmusic@aol.com> wrote: > So what did you think of the Strawbs CD? > > A > Andy Kinch > kinchmusic@aol.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: tronbros <tronbros@aol.com> > To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:48 > Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling > > > To be truthful, John did the cabinet refit, I was just the delivery boy and tweaker of the settings! > > Best, > > M > > mellotronics.co.uk > > > > On 24 Apr 2012, at 23:45, Vance Pomeroy <vance@juniperpacific.com> wrote: > >> Andy - >> Beautiful! >> Martin and John are magicians >> >> On 4/24/2012 4:48 AM, Andy Kinch wrote: >>> >>> ... becomes a pretty white swan! >>> >>> With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! >>> >>> Respect and thanks to Martin and John. >>> >>> Bravo! >>> >>> I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. >>> >>> Andy K >>> <mime-attachment.jpg> >>> >>> >>> >>> Andy Kinch >>> kinchmusic@aol.com > >
2012-04-25 by Andy Kinch
Sorry guys, my last post to Martin should have gone as an email. For what it's worth, the CD in question is the rather unfortunate (IMO) recent re-working of the Strawbs classic "Hero and Heroine" by the current lineup. I gave him my copy in the hope that he will like it and not send it back! Oh dear! Andy K Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com
-----Original Message----- From: Andy Kinch <kinchmusic@aol.com> To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:50 Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling So what did you think of the Strawbs CD? A Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: tronbros <tronbros@aol.com> To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:48 Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling To be truthful, John did the cabinet refit, I was just the delivery boy and tweaker of the settings! Best, M mellotronics.co.uk On 24 Apr 2012, at 23:45, Vance Pomeroy <vance@juniperpacific.com> wrote: Andy - Beautiful! Martin and John are magicians On 4/24/2012 4:48 AM, Andy Kinch wrote: ... becomes a pretty white swan! With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! Respect and thanks to Martin and John. Bravo! I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. Andy K <mime-attachment.jpg> Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com So what did you think of the Strawbs CD? A Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: tronbros <tronbros@aol.com> To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:48 Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling To be truthful, John did the cabinet refit, I was just the delivery boy and tweaker of the settings! Best, M mellotronics.co.uk On 24 Apr 2012, at 23:45, Vance Pomeroy <vance@juniperpacific.com> wrote: Andy - Beautiful! Martin and John are magicians On 4/24/2012 4:48 AM, Andy Kinch wrote: ... becomes a pretty white swan! With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! Respect and thanks to Martin and John. Bravo! I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. Andy K <mime-attachment.jpg> Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com
2012-04-25 by tron400
I really like the olde Strawbs albums and have several of them (the most recent is "Ghosts") and I'd like to add more to my collection, but at what point in their history do you folks think is the cutoff for their listenability? (OK, I know that's not a real word) Bernie --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Andy Kinch <kinchmusic@...> wrote:
> > > Sorry guys, my last post to Martin should have gone as an email. > > For what it's worth, the CD in question is the rather unfortunate (IMO) recent re-working of the Strawbs classic "Hero and Heroine" by the current lineup. I gave him my copy in the hope that he will like it and not send it back! > > Oh dear! > > Andy K > > Andy Kinch > kinchmusic@... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andy Kinch <kinchmusic@...> > To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:50 > Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling > > > > > > So what did you think of the Strawbs CD? > > A > Andy Kinch > kinchmusic@... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: tronbros <tronbros@...> > To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:48 > Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling > > > > > > To be truthful, John did the cabinet refit, I was just the delivery boy and tweaker of the settings! > > > Best, > > > M > > mellotronics.co.uk > > > > > > > On 24 Apr 2012, at 23:45, Vance Pomeroy <vance@...> wrote: > > > > > Andy - > Beautiful! > Martin and John are magicians > > On 4/24/2012 4:48 AM, Andy Kinch wrote: > ... becomes a pretty white swan! > > With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! > > Respect and thanks to Martin and John. > > Bravo! > > I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. > > Andy K > <mime-attachment.jpg> > > > > > Andy Kinch > kinchmusic@... > > > > > > > > > So what did you think of the Strawbs CD? > > A > Andy Kinch > kinchmusic@... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: tronbros <tronbros@...> > To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:48 > Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling > > > > > > To be truthful, John did the cabinet refit, I was just the delivery boy and tweaker of the settings! > > > Best, > > > M > > mellotronics.co.uk > > > > > > > On 24 Apr 2012, at 23:45, Vance Pomeroy <vance@...> wrote: > > > > > Andy - > Beautiful! > Martin and John are magicians > > On 4/24/2012 4:48 AM, Andy Kinch wrote: > ... becomes a pretty white swan! > > With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! > > Respect and thanks to Martin and John. > > Bravo! > > I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. > > Andy K > <mime-attachment.jpg> > > > > > Andy Kinch > kinchmusic@... >
2012-04-25 by R l
2012-04-25 by tron400
Thanks for the input, Roberto. At least I can still go backward in their discography. Bernie --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, R l <bluesrock77@...> wrote:
> > > Hi Bernie, > I'd say Ghosts is the last one...Nomadness was recorded without a Mellotron, which was a silly idea by John Hawken according to the Mellotron book. At that point Strawbs lost its old audience and failed to acquire a new one...a bad move...to say the least. > best, > Roberto > > To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com > From: tron400@... > Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:17:06 +0000 > Subject: [newmellotrongroup] Strawbs: was The Ugly Duckling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really like the olde Strawbs albums and have several of them (the most recent is "Ghosts") and I'd like to add more to my collection, but at what point in their history do you folks think is the cutoff for their listenability? (OK, I know that's not a real word) > > > > Bernie > > > > --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Andy Kinch <kinchmusic@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sorry guys, my last post to Martin should have gone as an email. > > > > > > For what it's worth, the CD in question is the rather unfortunate (IMO) recent re-working of the Strawbs classic "Hero and Heroine" by the current lineup. I gave him my copy in the hope that he will like it and not send it back! > > > > > > Oh dear! > > > > > > Andy K > > > > > > Andy Kinch > > > kinchmusic@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Andy Kinch <kinchmusic@> > > > To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:50 > > > Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what did you think of the Strawbs CD? > > > > > > A > > > Andy Kinch > > > kinchmusic@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: tronbros <tronbros@> > > > To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:48 > > > Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be truthful, John did the cabinet refit, I was just the delivery boy and tweaker of the settings! > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > mellotronics.co.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 Apr 2012, at 23:45, Vance Pomeroy <vance@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy - > > > Beautiful! > > > Martin and John are magicians > > > > > > On 4/24/2012 4:48 AM, Andy Kinch wrote: > > > ... becomes a pretty white swan! > > > > > > With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! > > > > > > Respect and thanks to Martin and John. > > > > > > Bravo! > > > > > > I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. > > > > > > Andy K > > > <mime-attachment.jpg> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy Kinch > > > kinchmusic@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what did you think of the Strawbs CD? > > > > > > A > > > Andy Kinch > > > kinchmusic@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: tronbros <tronbros@> > > > To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:48 > > > Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be truthful, John did the cabinet refit, I was just the delivery boy and tweaker of the settings! > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > mellotronics.co.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 Apr 2012, at 23:45, Vance Pomeroy <vance@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy - > > > Beautiful! > > > Martin and John are magicians > > > > > > On 4/24/2012 4:48 AM, Andy Kinch wrote: > > > ... becomes a pretty white swan! > > > > > > With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! > > > > > > Respect and thanks to Martin and John. > > > > > > Bravo! > > > > > > I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. > > > > > > Andy K > > > <mime-attachment.jpg> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy Kinch > > > kinchmusic@ > > > >
2012-04-25 by lsf5275@aol.com
It's like asking an artist to repaint a great painting.. I passed on the opportunity to listen to it. As for Dave Cousins, I have a feeling that he's had a hard time adjusting to the fact that he's not a big rock star anymore.... My wife, having met him an two occasions, thinks he's a complete asshole. There have been times when I would agree with her, however the last time I spoke to him he was a lot mellower than in some previous conversations. The rest of the guys are great to work with and to hang out with. Having seen the Strawbs a number of times in various iterations since 2004, I can honestly say that I have enjoyed every one of their performances. Dave's voice may not be what it once was, but he still puts a lot of effort into his shows and he and his band mates are all superb musicians. In a message dated 4/25/2012 4:03:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kinchmusic@aol.com writes: Sorry guys, my last post to Martin should have gone as an email. For what it's worth, the CD in question is the rather unfortunate (IMO) recent re-working of the Strawbs classic "Hero and Heroine" by the current lineup. I gave him my copy in the hope that he will like it and not send it back! Oh dear! Andy K Andy Kinch kinchmusic@aol.com -----Original Message-----
From: Andy Kinch <kinchmusic@aol.com> To: newmellotrongroup <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:50 Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling So what did you think of the Strawbs CD? A Andy Kinch _kinchmusic@aol.com_ (mailto:kinchmusic@aol.com) -----Original Message----- From: tronbros <_tronbros@aol.com_ (mailto:tronbros@aol.com) > To: newmellotrongroup <_newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com) > Sent: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 8:48 Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] The Ugly Duckling To be truthful, John did the cabinet refit, I was just the delivery boy and tweaker of the settings! Best, M _mellotronics.co.uk_ (http://mellotronics.co.uk/) On 24 Apr 2012, at 23:45, Vance Pomeroy <_vance@juniperpacific.com_ (mailto:vance@juniperpacific.com) > wrote: Andy - Beautiful! Martin and John are magicians On 4/24/2012 4:48 AM, Andy Kinch wrote: ... becomes a pretty white swan! With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new! Respect and thanks to Martin and John. Bravo! I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later. Andy K <mime-attachment.jpg> Andy Kinch _kinchmusic@aol.com_ (mailto:kinchmusic@aol.com)
2012-04-25 by lsf5275@aol.com
I totally disagree about losing their audience. I can tell you that the last time John Hawken played a Mellotron, it was one of mine. Dave Cousins wanted to use two on stage but Hawken was afraid that they would be like they were in the 70's. Finally, after playing it in rehearsal before the Sellersville show in 2004, and after much badgering from the rest of the band, he played it (briefly) during Hero & Heroine. I put a video up of it on you tube. The next night he again played it live at NEARfest and that show was recorded and released by the band. It was great show. Most of the time Hawken was playing the "Pinder" samples. After the show, Hawken said that he would have played it (them) more if he'd had a chance to rehearse with it/them properly. As it was, he has rearranged some of the Mellotron parts to take advantage of his more updated keyboard rig. Frank In a message dated 4/25/2012 7:32:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bluesrock77@hotmail.com writes: Hi Bernie, I'd say Ghosts is the last one...Nomadness was recorded without a Mellotron, which was a silly idea by John Hawken according to the Mellotron book. At that point Strawbs lost its old audience and failed to acquire a new one...a bad move...to say the least. best, Roberto
2012-04-25 by R l
Hi Bernie,I'd say Ghosts is the last one...Nomadness was recorded without a Mellotron, which was a silly idea by John Hawken according to the Mellotron book. At that point Strawbs lost its old audience and failed to acquire a new one...a bad move...to say the least.best,Roberto
2012-04-25 by lsf5275@aol.com
Roberto, Few, if any, of the 'prog' bands from the 70s sell many records anymore. Certainly not like they used to. Musical tastes have changed and not many young people are into it, and few folks my age who saw these bands and bought their records even care any more. I think that most of the best rock songs are written by artists at a young age, although there are many who still write great tunes and lyrics and put on a great show many years after they began their careers. I rarely, if ever, listen to the Strawbs later material because I'm just not interested any more. But I do think they still put on a great live show, and if they are accessible on tour, I'll go see them. Frank In a message dated 4/25/2012 11:41:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bluesrock77@hotmail.com writes: Hi Frank, just take a look at their concerts attendances and album sales after Nomadness...none of their albums after that came even close to Hero, Grave, Bursting or Ghosts. At least not for me. I'd gladly part ways with most of them. Sure, there was the 'punk effect' around the late 70's and all prog bands suffered a lot to survive. Some deservedly so...but that's another story. best, Roberto ____________________________________ To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
From: lsf5275@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:32:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Strawbs: was The Ugly Duckling I totally disagree about losing their audience. I can tell you that the last time John Hawken played a Mellotron, it was one of mine. Dave Cousins wanted to use two on stage but Hawken was afraid that they would be like they were in the 70's. Finally, after playing it in rehearsal before the Sellersville show in 2004, and after much badgering from the rest of the band, he played it (briefly) during Hero & Heroine. I put a video up of it on you tube. The next night he again played it live at NEARfest and that show was recorded and released by the band. It was great show. Most of the time Hawken was playing the "Pinder" samples. After the show, Hawken said that he would have played it (them) more if he'd had a chance to rehearse with it/them properly. As it was, he has rearranged some of the Mellotron parts to take advantage of his more updated keyboard rig. Frank In a message dated 4/25/2012 7:32:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bluesrock77@hotmail.com writes: Hi Bernie, I'd say Ghosts is the last one...Nomadness was recorded without a Mellotron, which was a silly idea by John Hawken according to the Mellotron book. At that point Strawbs lost its old audience and failed to acquire a new one...a bad move...to say the least. best, Roberto
2012-04-25 by Nick Hewitt
--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, tronbros >
> Just terrible! JB hated too. Whatever possessed them to revisit one of their most popular albums? The string sounds and piano setting are from 80's synth and don't belong. And Dave has become a caricature of himself vocally.
>
> M
>
> mellotronics.co.uk
I saw The Strawbs at the Queens Hall, Edinburgh on 4th November last year. Apparently, it was a re-arranged gig, the band having cancelled a number earlier in the year. I'd never seen the Strawbs in their heyday (before "Lay Down" and "Part of the [bloody] Union"), so I was foolishly expecting to be something othey would have done 40 years ago - silly sod that I am. The Queens Hall isn't a particularly good venue - it is badly laid out and the acoustics aren't great. At the time, they had a John Young as keyboardist, but I couldn't see what gear he had. I don't know what the opening number was, but the 2nd one was "Grave New World". It was dreadful. Oh, it was played OK, but there wasn't one molecule of passion. I am of the opinion that the band were simply going through the motions, as though they wanted to be somewhere else. After GNW, they performed the "Hero & Heroine" album in its entirety, and it was dire! It would have been better if they did bits 'n' pieces from their full repertoire, from (say) "...Witchwood" to the present. I would have loved to have heard "The Hangman and the Papist" and "Sheep". I concur with Martin about Cousins not being what he was - the lack of a beard I find odd, having rarely seen pictures of him without one. I reckon he should stop touring and lay The Strawbs to rest and simply have them as a tick on his C.V.
I personally prefer "From the Witchwood" and "Grave New World", particularly "Benedictus", the 3rd track (whatever it's titled) and the title track are magnificent, with the tron to the fore in all 3.
2012-04-26 by marabus
... becomes a pretty white swan!With the new cabinet, my 400 looks and plays like brand new!Respect and thanks to Martin and John.Bravo!I'll try and post some more pics in the members area later.Andy K
2012-04-26 by Robert
2012-04-26 by gino wong
A very talented young lady indeed. She can play anything from ELP, Coltrane, Miles, Jobim, Guaraldi, Bach, Beethoven, Corea, Reich, etc...She has a promising future ahead of her in music.RobertAt approximately 1:40, she checks out a real mellotron:And now, some Reich:
2012-04-27 by marabus
A very talented young lady indeed. She can play anything from ELP, Coltrane, Miles, Jobim, Guaraldi, Bach, Beethoven, Corea, Reich, etc...
She has a promising future ahead of her in music.
Robert
At approximately 1:40, she checks out a real mellotron:
And now, some Reich:
2012-04-27 by marabus
A very talented young lady indeed. She can play anything from ELP, Coltrane, Miles, Jobim, Guaraldi, Bach, Beethoven, Corea, Reich, etc...
She has a promising future ahead of her in music.
Robert
At approximately 1:40, she checks out a real mellotron:
And now, some Reich:
2012-05-03 by Bruce Daily
She is very good. But the mellotron seemed to confuse and delight her. I think I understand what Reich was trying to do in his piece, the inteweaving or "phasing" of 2 piano lines into one, with what sounds like 2 different but close tempos. Something like that. What a memory challenge! She did it well. -Bruce D. ________________________________
From: Robert <rmrmax@yahoo.com> To: "newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com" <newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 5:14 PM Subject: [newmellotrongroup] Mellotron Spotting - Rachel Flowers A very talented young lady indeed. She can play anything from ELP, Coltrane, Miles, Jobim, Guaraldi, Bach, Beethoven, Corea, Reich, etc... She has a promising future ahead of her in music. Robert At approximately 1:40, she checks out a real mellotron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7JB1-tecTQ&feature=player_embedded#! And now, some Reich: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG0eKE1LVgE ________________________________