The Logic Off Topic list

This week's ART was attended by [at various stages] itorman,
Robert_Matichak, oink, janpulsford, Heisenberg, BetaBrett,  utopian ,
timmymacdd, bongo, Vesaa, jay, haggan, herman, chillisource,  DJ-Allard,
MixMasterMark,  LennieJ, marcr, xiabram, Zoggo.

Dave Bellingham [oscwilde] gave us a very interesting talk on
LogicControl, which elicited a great deal of interest from all present.

The following is a heavily edited summary of the forum chat:


 oink says, "welcome everyone !"
 oscwilde says, "Well, shall we get down to brass tacks?"
 oink says, "and if you have just asked one, let someone else ask the
next"
 oink says, "all yours Dave :)"
 oscwilde says, "You've undoubtedly seen the glossy ads and read the
info on the Emagic "
 oscwilde says, "(and other) site(s)/trade mags about the Logic
Control."
 oscwilde says, "I'll assume that you all know it's purpose. If not,
speak up ;-)"
 oscwilde says, "While this info is preliminary, and subject to
change....this is the "
 oscwilde says, "general "guts" of what the Logic Control system is
about."
 oscwilde says, "It will initially be supported "straight out of the
box" by Logic Audio 5."
 oscwilde says, "Release should (hopefully) coincide with the planned
release of LA5 - "
 oscwilde says, "There will be two units. "
 oscwilde says, "Logic Control 1 - The main unit.Logic Control XT - The
add-on fader pack. (This may be released later than September)."
 oscwilde says, "Logic Control 1 - 8 touch-sensitive 100mm motorised
faders - made by Penny & Giles, 8 rotary "V-pots" - pan, EQ, sends,
plug-in parameters and dynamics, transport controls, a weighted
jog/shuttle/scrub wheel - hardware independent (LA5),
Select/mute/rec/solo buttons per channel,16 user-definable function keys
- key commands/screensets etc. can be "
 BetaBrett says, "sweet"
 oscwilde says, "Logic Control XT- 8 100mm motorised faders,8 rotary
"V-pots",Select/mute/rec/solo buttons per channel,an individual display
for each fader channel."
 oscwilde says, "The hardware will be manufactured by Mackie Designs.
The firmware/software integration is a co-development of Emagic and
Mackie."
 oscwilde says, "Each Logic Control unit (1 or XT) requires an
independent physical MIDI IN "
 oscwilde says, "You can run an LC1 with multiple XT units. There may
(or will) be a limitation of 24 physical LC channels, but in theory,
there should be no restriction - provided you've got a lot of free MIDI
ports ;-)"
 oscwilde says, "Note that this is talking about the hardware...not
Logic. The hardware can be switched - in say a 24 chann setup - from
tracks 1-24, to 25-48 a.s.o. via bank selection."
 oscwilde says, "When switching between banks/parameters etc. the
display above the fader "
 oscwilde says, "and the fader itself/pot/switches etc. will
automatically update to "
 oscwilde says, "reflect the current setting/s"
 oscwilde says, "The faders themselves are capable of sending 1,024
discrete steps. This is"
 oscwilde says, "interpolated against the 127 MIDI steps, so fades are
ultra smooth and accurate with MIDI devices."
 oscwilde says, "As the LC units communicate via MIDI, it is possible to
use them for other tasks - synth editing etc., although it's primary
purpose and general operating mode is use with LA5 (and SoundDiver)."
 oscwilde says, "AFAIK, reassignment of key commands/functionality etc.
of switches and "
 oscwilde says, "other controls will be done via an interface in LA5
which will be similar to the Controller Assignments window in SoundDiver
3.x."
 oscwilde says, "No pricing has been fixed at this point for either
unit, but general suggestions made by the music press (from info gleaned
at trade shows, presumably) place the Logic Control 1 at under US $1000.
Time will tell......"
 oscwilde says, "Questions?"
 utopian says, "will it be able to control plugin parameters  eg waves
etc?"
 oscwilde says, "yes."
 xiabram says, "poss. ethernet connection?"
 BetaBrett says, "Any plans to switch to ethernet instead if MIDI in the
future? Perhaps they'll go straight to firewire? Oh, yeah, they have to
support WinTel... "
 oscwilde says, "ethernet connection is unnecessary for the units."
 utopian says, "why did they use midi?"
 oscwilde says, "MIDi is plenty fast enough"
 BetaBrett says, "cool"
 oscwilde says, "it's also less expensive to add to devices than
ethernet"
 utopian says, "yea"
 BetaBrett says, "Have you used prototypes?"
 oscwilde says, "the real bottleneck in any motorised fader device is
the faders themselves, rather than the communication protocol, which is
probably what you were concerned about...right?"
 oscwilde says, "yes, I've used a prototype"
 BetaBrett says, "could you gives us your _personal_ impression after
using it?"
 oscwilde says, "personally, I wanted to take it home ;-)"
 utopian says, "do you know if la5 will do automation like a real
console, in regards to write/read modes"
 oscwilde says, "I can't comment on LA5 at this point, soryy ;-)"
 utopian says, "does the controller make automation happen more
elegantly than today"
 oscwilde says, "define "elegantly"???"
 utopian says, "I find that I have to go through this funky way of doing
automation now, creating a separate track for each track, mainly because
I cant over write my automation track, and the only way to edit easly is
to do it like this"
 utopian says, "Not elegent eh"
 oscwilde says, "AFAIK, the method of automation will change
significantly in this regard in V5. The Logic Control will make the
general use of the software more practical, given the number of
parameters that are now available for every aspect...synths, plus etc."
 utopian says, "good. I had to explain to a couple of film composers how
I currently work, and they thought it was very ameture"
 oscwilde says, "Fundamentally, LA, as it currently stands is not geared
towards using the mouse...the LC units will make it a whole lot more
practical."
 jay says, "is there a chance that this gear will talk to pro tools?"
 utopian says, "not if digi has its way"
 oscwilde says, "I don't know, but I'd doubt it. PT users already have
the ProControl/HUI etc."
 xiabram says, "how will this unit compare to others of similare price"
 oscwilde says, "It would "talk" to PT hardware via Direct I/O using LA
as the front-end...in theory ;-)"
 jay says, "that's an interesting thought"
 jay says, "this gear sounds more flexible than the motor mix stuff "
 oscwilde says, "re comparison to the motormix, yep."
 utopian says, "the motor mix is rather "babyish""
 oscwilde says, "it is purpose-built for use with logic although it can
certainly be used with other MIDI devices. As a device of comparison,
the HUI is probably closest."
 utopian says, "looks like one too, as far as the pictures go"      "
 oscwilde says, "I'd say that Mackie's hand in this is pretty obvious
;-)"
 Vesaa says, "well,besides motorized faders what does it have that,say,
peavey 1600 doesnn't have?"
 oink says, "you didn't mentiom the mic preamps, are they still gonna be
a feature ?"
 oscwilde says, "it will be a midi controller only"
 xiabram says, "ahhh "
 oscwilde says, "re the peavey...transport controls, buttons that can be
used for key commands/screensets, a jog/shuttle/scrub wheel, it's
expandable, it can be used for more than just MIDi control...it can be
used to control Logic."
 BetaBrett says, "thinking how I'll fit this into my studio... do you
have the rough dimesions of the units?"
 xiabram says, "less expensive tha pro control"
 xiabram says, "much"
 Vesaa says, "but for example ,I have 001 by digi,that won't scrub ,due
to clocking !"
oscwilde says, "I'm not sure of dimensions...sorry."
 jay says, "is there a url where we can look at it?"
 oscwilde says,
"http://www.emagic.de/english/musikmesse2001/html/products/lcontrol.html"

 Vesaa says, "Not a single card without word clock will scrub."
 oscwilde says, "Version 5 also sees the introduction of
hardware-independent audio scrubbing, which allows for monitoring while
manually moving through the audio data  regardless of the audio hardware
used."
 oscwilde says, "this is directly from the Emagic site:
http://www.emagic.de/english/musikmesse2001/html/products/index.html"
 oink says, "cool"
 Robert_Matichak says, "double cool!"
 Vesaa says, "seconded!"
 oscwilde says, "so, how many of you are hot for the Logic Control?"
 Robert_Matichak says, "me!"
 oink says, "moi !"
 jay says, "i'll take one please"
 Vesaa says, "what's the official price in GBP?"
 oink says, "no official yet"
 Vesaa says, "any guesses"
 oscwilde says, "there's no "official" pricing for anywhere yet"
 oscwilde says, "under $1k US"
 jay says to BetaBrett "you have me breathing hard"
 jay says to oscwilde "this thing really does look cool"
 BetaBrett says, "ahem, children....."
 oscwilde says, "so, more questions?"
 BetaBrett says, "Yeah - what did you NOT like about it?"
 oscwilde says, "or conjecture?"
 xiabram says, "when is release aprx?"
 oscwilde says, "It was/is way too early to say what I didn't like about
it...as neither LA5 or the unit itself are there yet"
 jay says, "this is strictly a controller--not an input device at all
right?"
 Vesaa says, "If I may ask...Knowing that osc has a relationship with
emagic,what is this new thing ,this TDM >native bridge thing all about?"

 oscwilde says, "The ESB TDM is basically a piece of software that
connects the Logic "native" engine - plugins/VSt etc. and the Pro Tools
engine - DSP."
 oink says, "i think if there are no more logicControl questions, forum
is open"
 oscwilde says, "This allows the user to choose if they want to use
Logic's processing, TDM or a combination of both."
 Vesaa says, "But for us non-Tdm guys there's not much use for it?"
 oscwilde says, "None ;-)"
 Robert_Matichak says, ""I'm thinking about a firewire CD burner. do you
know if waveburnner supports firewire? Or is it a "non issue"?""
 utopian says, "not yet"
 oink says, "it has been announced on the lug list firewire support is
imminent"
 haggan says, "btw, oscarwilde got a good article about his forum in the
newest german keys magazine, so, don t close the forum:)"
 oink says, "cool"
 Vesaa says, "Hey it's the best info you can have on-line bout' Logic"
 oink says, "the forums have been a godsend to a lot of users on
rocketnetwork"
 oink says, "Dave B I'm sure  I speak for everyone when i say you have
been a most interesting and informative guest :)"
 oink says, "I thought I'd get that in before any starts wandering off
:)"
 janpulsford says, "hear hear!!"
 LennieJ says, "THANXS Dave!!"
 jay says, "thanks Dave"
 oink says, "is everyone here familiar with dave B's logic audio FAQ
site ?"
 oink says, "http://www.ozemail.com.au/~oscwilde/"
 oscwilde says, "Good night/morning sports fans. It's been fun. "
 oscwilde has left the Session

 Vesaa says, "As the official topic may be finished,cn we have some info
on the Musiocplayer center ? is it officially annouced yet?"
 marcr says, "Music Player is live"

 Zoggo says, "oink, is 4.7 ok to use around here?"
 oink says, "yes most of us are using it"
 oink says, "Zoggo"
 oink says, "if a session seems to go weird"
 oink says, "like its corrupt or something"
 oink says, "just trash the logic song and receive song data agin, and
everything usually returns to normal"
 oink says, "that is the main tip with 4.7"
 Zoggo says, "just trash the Arr doc? "
 oink says, "yes"
 Zoggo says, "thankx"
 oink says, "leave the Cache alone"
 Zoggo nods
 oink says, "but trash the .lso and .bak folder"




***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]

--- In logic-ot@y..., David Eager <oink@o...> wrote:
> This week's ART was attended by [at various stages] itorman,
> Robert_Matichak, oink, janpulsford, Heisenberg, BetaBrett,  utopian ,
> timmymacdd, bongo, Vesaa, jay, haggan, herman, chillisource,  DJ-Allard,
> MixMasterMark,  LennieJ, marcr, xiabram, Zoggo.
> 
> Dave Bellingham [oscwilde] gave us a very interesting talk on
> LogicControl, which elicited a great deal of interest from all present.
> 
> The following is a heavily edited summary of the forum chat:

<<snipped severly>>

>  Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
> to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a
> 
> precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
> that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
> my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.
> 
> ***********************************************************************
>

Stop spamming the OT list! :-), just kidding. I appreciate this post.
Yoonchi.

This week's session was attended by:BetaBrett, jay, Lennie,
chillisource,  marcr,  herman,   AcousticHipHop and  oink.

The Topic was 'laptop music production':

The following is a heavily edited summary of the forum chat:



 oink says,"OK lets talk about something"
 oink says,"hehe"
 jay says, "so betabrett (hehe)          what should i use for midi
conversion on my powerbook"
 BetaBrett says, "whacha mean?"
 jay says, "i have a motu and don't like it"
 BetaBrett says, "which one?"
 jay says, "fast lane"
 BetaBrett says, "Get a MIDI Tiimepiece"
 BetaBrett says, "It's a dream"
 Lennie says, "midi time is reat"
 Lennie says, "great )"
 BetaBrett says, "MOTU"
 BetaBrett reaches for coffee that isn't there
 jay says, "what do those things go for   "
 jay says to BetaBrett "ball park"
 BetaBrett says, "around $400 and worth every penny"
 jay says, "hmmm"
 Lennie says, "mtp AV for Mac"
 BetaBrett says, "That's the one"
 jay says, "that's the MOTU"
 BetaBrett says, "I have 2 MTP AVs"
 Lennie says, "isnt there 1 for PC & another forMAC?"
 BetaBrett says, "No - the current one has serial and USB"
 Lennie says, "ah OK"
 jay says, "you think the fast lane can be made to work?"
 BetaBrett says, "No experience with one, I'm afraid"
 oink says,"still havin issues with fastlane ?"
 jay says, "yes"
 oink says,"hmm, with both cubase and logic , or just logic ?"
 jay says, "but, i'm sure it could be made to work----just hate messin
with gear that takes too much time to configure"
 oink says,"try an MT4 instead"
 BetaBrett says, "jay... i forget... you on Mac or PC? Mac, right?"
 oink says,"he's on both"
 jay says, "truthfully, i spent quite a while with it and didn't get it,
so i went back to pc for midi"
 BetaBrett says, "ah"
 oink says,"ok so fastlane on mac"
 jay says, "right"
 BetaBrett says, "k"
 oink says,"OMS 2.3.8 installed and set up ?"
 BetaBrett says, "It requires OMS?"
 oink says,"if he's using USB"
 oink says,"he must use OMS"
 oink says,"unless its an emagic interface"
 Lennie says, "OMS is abig enough pain on its own he he"
 BetaBrett says, "Sure about that?"
 oink says,"on mac with USB, only Emagic interfaces can operate without
OMS"
 jay says, "both"
 oink says,"as the USB 'standard' is so vague"
 jay says, "installed in a specific order"
 oink says,"I'm a bit murky when it comes to Freemidi"
 oink says,"I now it can be in OMS-emulation mode"
 oink says,"let me just check if freemidi has to be running too"
 BetaBrett says, "You anly need FreeMIDI to set up MOTU boxes, not run
them"
 oink says,"ok"
 Lennie says, "no freemidi doesnt need to run with the OMS driver"
 jay says, "it does with the fastlane"
 Lennie says, "its an OMS USB driver that U may need"
 oink says,"well you will need the driver for the fastlane in opcode
folder in system, but it should be there already"
 BetaBrett says, "ah yes.... my mega 4 collects dust and looks hurt when
I walk by"
 oink says,"yes, make sure you have that"
 jay says, "you mac guys oughta give it up"
 jay says, "just kidding"
 Lennie says, "it doent install to the extebsions folder  U have to
place it there"
 BetaBrett says, "Damn... the MOTU site not respondiing"
 jay says, "ok Brett---next subject"


 oink says,"I was gonna float the subject of powerbooks and notepads
etc"
 jay says, "well how about what's the best audio hardware to add to a
powerbook"
 BetaBrett says, "laptalk is cool"
 oink says,"ooh, the best aint released yet"
 oink says,"AFAIK"
 marcr says, "Metric Halo's new box!~"
 BetaBrett says, "Digigram card is damn good"
 oink says,"like MetricHalo"
 oink says,"Digigram has been the standard"
 oink says,"828 is gaining tho"
 BetaBrett says, "Doesn't fit in my pocket  ;)"
 marcr says, "Emagic has a new USB Audio Interface"

 oink says,"and it needs mains power of course"
 marcr says, "the ESI 2I6"
 jay says to marcr "work?"
 marcr says, "dunno, only just available last week"
 marcr says, "for PC only"
 jay says, "how much"
 oink says,"anyone used the ESI yet ?"
 marcr says, "Mac drivers to come in 4 weeks"
 marcr says, "http://www.mhlabs.com/home.html"
 marcr says, "MOBILE I/O by Metric Halo"
 marcr says, "The Metric Halo Mobile I/O has DSP!"
 jay says, "what's DSP?"
 marcr says, "you should really check it out"
 marcr says, "Digital Signal Processing"
 oink says,"yes the DSP option is about 2 grand"
 marcr says, "the power to run plugz"
 oink says,"I mean the model with DSP"
 marcr says, "and MH's Channel Strip the the Bomb"
 marcr says, "(MAS,VST, TDM Plug-in) Jay"
 BetaBrett says, "The Metric Halo Mobile I/O connects how?"
 marcr says, "Firewire"
 oink says,"firewire"

 jay says, "so, is firewire on the rise?"
 BetaBrett says, "big time"
 marcr says, "Talkin' SCSI here man"
 marcr says, "gear junkies all around"
 oink says,"I note that 828 is supposed to be able to work with firewire
cardbus cards"
 oink says,"but not ones with NEC chip"
 BetaBrett says, "Like the Firewire-to-Go?"
 AcousticHipHop says, "i know it's better than USB"
 oink says,"I don't know how to find out what chip they use"
 oink says,"except to email the manufacturers"
 marcr says, "ha!"
 BetaBrett says, "With "laptop solutions" I assume"
 jay says, "good question"
 oink says,"ah"
 oink says,"I use a paper towel,is tat OK ?"
 Lennie says, "I use my T shirt"
 marcr says, "yea, the monitor cleaner crap leaves streaks"
 BetaBrett says, "You know... I've been timid about cleaning the
screen... at least use a SOFT cloth"
 jay goes to the drawer
 oink says,"actually, now I think of it, I never have cleaned it"
 BetaBrett says, "paper towels are scratchy"
 jay says, "what else were you thinking about laptops oink?"
 oink says,"like how fast is fast enough for live playing"
 oink says,"its been suggested to me that 400mhz is entry level there"
 jay says, "works for me"
 oink says,"any other ideas on that ?"
 marcr says, "live?"
 BetaBrett says, "I use a PB Bronze 400MHz without any probs"
 marcr says, "live performance?"
 oink says,"I have only a 266mhz G3PB"
 marcr says, "live performance with MIDI or Digital Audio or both?"
 oink says,"yes, live performance"
 jay says, "how would you record a band in a club with that brett?"
 oink says,"both"
 oink says,"sample mangling and midi"
 jay says, "right"
 jay says, "ok"
 BetaBrett says, "I'd usse a DAT"
 jay says, "but could you?"
 BetaBrett says, "Certainly"
 marcr says, "Yea you could Jay"
 jay says, "then how would you?"
 marcr says, "Stereo Recording"
 marcr says, "Peak, Pro Tools, LAP"
 jay says, "in what app"
 marcr says, "Logic Rocket even"
 oink says,"yet I have seem live performance stuf since years back"
 BetaBrett says, "I use Peak for stereo"
 jay says, "the light pro tools?"
 marcr says, "right, i use a G3/500 now for live performance"
 marcr says, "i used to use a G3/266"
 BetaBrett says, "Give us an example"
 marcr says, "Wallstreet"
 oink says,"Marc: have you any experience with LISA ?"
 marcr says, "nope"
 oink says,"yeh, I have wallstreet"
 marcr says, "i've used DP and LAP live"
 jay says, "i'm lost"
 marcr says, "sorry"
 marcr says, "let's address jay first"
 oink says,"hi jay"
 marcr says, "jay, if you wanna record audio live..."
 marcr says, "you have a stereo input on your pb"
 jay says, "yes?"
 marcr says, "it doesn't matter which app you use"
 marcr says, "the "sound" of your recording"
 marcr says, "is going to be a product of the AtoD's in the PB"
 marcr says, "use whatever you like "
 jay says, "so, you can run LAP for 45 minutes no probs?"
 marcr says, "yes"
 jay says, "ok"
 marcr says, "but LAP has a blasted settting"
 marcr says, "to limit record times"
 marcr says, "it's a pref"
 marcr says, "change it and you'll be fine"
 marcr says, "i hate that pref"
 jay says, "i was thinking-- take a mix from the board and run it"
 marcr says, "tell you the truth though"
 marcr says, "i'd use Pro Tools Free"
 BetaBrett says, "LAP has a limit in measures only..... for really long
recordings set it to a slow tempo"
 jay says, "ahh thanks brett"
 marcr says, "RIGHT BRETT"
 marcr says, "that's so anoying"
 jay says, "that's what i'm talking about"
 oink says,"anyone tested the limit on LAP in cycle record mode ?"
 BetaBrett says, "Whacha mean?"
 oink says,"well it should be able to fill your drive"
 oink says,"if you reord in cycle record, shouldn't it ?"
 BetaBrett says, "Never tried that limit.... but it must work"
 BetaBrett says, "Good idea :)"
 Lennie says, "why would U want to? he he"
 oink says,"oh, duh, I have done it"
 oink says,"oh people wanna record live gigs"
 BetaBrett says, "That really is a good idea"
 oink says,"I did it once way back"
 Lennie says, "so in cycle each cycle would create a new file?"
 Lennie says, "or just 1 long 1"
 oink says,"not live gig, but to catch some ambient noise"
 oink says,"left it on all night"
 oink says,"but my drives weren't so big then"
 BetaBrett says, "I never trust a computer for that kind of thing (like
a live gig)"
 oink says,"I think I got a bout 2 hrs"
 oink says,"me neither"
 oink says,"and I wouldn't trust one big file either"
 BetaBrett says, "I go DAT and SPDIF it into the PB"
 oink says,"yes"
 BetaBrett says, "My remote rig is DAT, AT825 stereo mic, PB, and
Digigram card, plus maybe a Mackie 1202"
 Lennie says, "I just use Dat or even a CD recorder "
 oink says,"that sounds very nice"
 BetaBrett says, "Without the Mackie, I need no mains power"
 oink says,"what PB do you have ?"
 BetaBrett says, "Bronze"
 oink says,"cool"
 oink says,"I wish I'd gone for a bronze instead of wallstreet"
 BetaBrett says, "What was it - price?"
 oink says,"with what I've spent on upgrading"
 oink says,"this was late last year"
 BetaBrett says, "ah"
 oink says,"er$AU 2.4k"
 BetaBrett says, "what's the conversion rate to US$ ?"
 oink says,"and I coulda got bronze a few months later for that"
 oink says,"about $US 0.52"
 BetaBrett says, "good deal tho"
 oink says,"well the processor needed replacing after a month or two"
 oink says,"it was fried"
 BetaBrett says, "poopie"
 oink says,"and it was tricky getting 256mb RAM in it"
 oink says,"and I have bought usb adapter"
 oink says,"and guess I will buy a firewire adapter"
 BetaBrett says, "256 in a PB is nice.... i only have 192"
 oink says,"well they said in the manual 192 was the limit"
 BetaBrett says, "The firewire cards are cheap, but not allways full
duplex"
 oink says,"but when I was havin the processor replaced"
 oink says,"the tech said you could put a 128 in the bottom slot now"
 BetaBrett says, "cool... good techie"
 oink says,"that the limitation was only because old 128s were too high"

 BetaBrett says, "so i heard"
 oink says,"and its been working fine since"
 oink says,"when you say full duplex with firewire cards, do you mean
adapters ?"
 BetaBrett says, "I have a Firewire-2-Go card, and it has problems
sending data in and out at the same time, or so it seems"
 BetaBrett says, "It was the first model tho"
 oink says,"hmm, that would be worth checking"
 BetaBrett says, "Yeah..."

 oink says,"have you seemn the laptop music mailing list  ?"
 oink says,"I just joined"
 BetaBrett says, "no i haven't"
 oink says,"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LapTopMusic"

 BetaBrett says, "I will check it out for sure"



***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

I am now posting the ART summary in the new Forums in the rocketnetwork
studio centers. From next week I will be reducing the size of this
summary down to a few lines. If you still wish to receive the Summary in
this fuller form, email me at oink@..., and I'll continue
sending it to you.

Dave Eager [oink]