Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

2015-12-10 by msfshirow@...

I recently acquired an Alesis Photon X25 controller keyboard with the intent to set it up to make editing my "Hawked-up" EX-800 a less headache-inducing experience, only to discover that I paid far less attention than I should have to the section concerning MIDI CC behavior in the Hawk-800 user's manual...

Having said that though, I am left wondering if there isn't an easier way to setup a controller than the three methods outlined in the manual, all of which seem rather convoluted and anything but straightforward to me, if I may be so bold. Why is it not possible to simply assign one MIDI CC to a knob or switch or slider and just have it work, as opposed to what's detailed in the manual? Are there some tricky coding or CPU issues that I'm simply not aware of?

Ideally, I'd like to have instant control over cutoff, resonance, EG segments, a handful of DCO parameters, and so on. Of course having one knob per function would be perfect, but as far as I know there isn't a capable controller, and even if there was, would it even be possible to setup as outlined in the manual?

Any ideas or advice or anecdotes about how any of you have successfully setup a controller would be appreciated.

Re: [korgpolyex] Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

2015-12-10 by Michael Hawkins

"simply assign one MIDI CC to a knob or switch or slider and just have it work, as opposed to what's detailed in the manual"

This is the method spelled out in the first section on MIDI CC controllers in the owners manual.

"MIDI CC Non Registered Parameter Number Method"

The only way to control every single parameter is to use NRPN.

You can also look at the MIDI implementation chart and see that there are quite a few discretely (direct) controlled parameters too. I can add more if you find one that you really, really must have as a directly controlled parameter.

But the NRPN method is the standard way.

/Mike

From: "msfshirow@... [korgpolyex]" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 2:32 AM
Subject: [korgpolyex] Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

I recently acquired an Alesis Photon X25 controller keyboard with the intent to set it up to make editing my "Hawked-up" EX-800 a less headache-inducing experience, only to discover that I paid far less attention than I should have to the section concerning MIDI CC behavior in the Hawk-800 user's manual...

Having said that though, I am left wondering if there isn't an easier way to setup a controller than the three methods outlined in the manual, all of which seem rather convoluted and anything but straightforward to me, if I may be so bold. Why is it not possible to simply assign one MIDI CC to a knob or switch or slider and just have it work, as opposed to what's detailed in the manual? Are there some tricky coding or CPU issues that I'm simply not aware of?

Ideally, I'd like to have instant control over cutoff, resonance, EG segments, a handful of DCO parameters, and so on. Of course having one knob per function would be perfect, but as far as I know there isn't a capable controller, and even if there was, would it even be possible to setup as outlined in the manual?

Any ideas or advice or anecdotes about how any of you have successfully setup a controller would be appreciated.

Re: [korgpolyex] Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

2015-12-11 by msfshirow@...

Thanks for the reply.

Maybe I should have been more clear. After printing out and using the Parameter Quick Reference sheets, I'd assumed (dangerous, I know) that by just assigning the corresponding CC# of the parameter I want to edit to a knob on the controller, that was all it would take. For example, the chart shows CC#24 for filter cutoff, so I thought that assigning knob 1 to CC#24 was all I needed to do. Evidently that is not the case.

Please excuse my ignorance in this area... I've never really used or set up a controller before.

But let's go back to the filter cutoff for a second here. What would need to be done then to set up a knob on a controller to handle cutoff? The manual says, in the MIDI CC Non Registered Parameter Number Method section, to "Send CC#99 with data value matching Global Parameter 16... Then send CC#98 with data value set to desired target parameter... Then send CC#6 with data value set to desired target value." The controller I have only allows one CC# to be assigned to any one particular knob or slider, so I don't see how this could work. Am I overlooking something glaringly obvious here?

Thanks for the help.

Re: [korgpolyex] Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

2015-12-11 by domgoold@...

Hi Mike,
do you mean by this that these 'NRPN' params can be controlled by Sysex as well?

i have some confusion with NRPNs, how to use them. - but manufs do seem to like them ! -

could you please describe step by step how you use NRPNs in an 'easy' way?
i'm thinking, terribly complicated, calling NRPN, and then sending data#6 - and this, as far
as i understand, means that NRPN will be assigned to MIDI CC#6 until you specify another
NRPN, or send a (?end of NRPN?) message.

the Novation Remote has a NRPN mode - i have a feeling it may deal with everything under the
bonnet, to make it usable, but i haven't checked.

>because, basically, what we want, is just to grab a control and tweak it, rather than having

to set up a complicated series of messages in a list editor, right..?

>wondering, bcause i'm getting the hang of the Remote now, and it's Remote Editor.

Re: [korgpolyex] Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

2015-12-11 by bperkins211@...

I tried to locate an Alesis manual specific for your Photon, but all I found was a Quick Start Guide that didnt even mention how to set up NRPN's.
It mentioned that it is an available feature, but not a single peep about how to set it up.

So it looks like you will have to wade thru the menus on your device to find NRPN setup.

It's a WAG, but it may go something like this...

Use the LAYER button to choose the layer you want to edit. Press EDIT
PRESET then wiggle a knob to select that knob for editing.

Here's where it becomes obscure how to get to NRPN's.. it says in the manual, "Turn VALUE/ENTER to change the MIDI continuous control (CC) number associated to the knob." Maybe if you go past CC#127, it will show up as NRPN..
-OR-
After you select which knob to edit, Press the PAGE RIGHT button until you find NRPN setup.

Most controllers I have seen want to set the MSB value to 0. So either you will have to set your HAWK's Global Parameter #16 to 0 or set the Alesis NRPN MSB to "1" to match the HAWK's default value of "1".
The LSB of NRPNs is the number you see next to each Parameter in the HAWK Parameter Quick Ref. chart... so #24 for Filter cutoff, as an example, would be the LSB value.
There's an error in the Parameter Quick Ref. doc.. it should have "NRPN LSB" in that column header instead of "CC #"

Once you get that setup, then the Data Value (CC#6) will be automatically sent when you turn the knob by the controller.. basically for NRPN's setup for the HAWK, each time the NRPN controller knob turns, your device will send CC#99/value 0-63 (the Global Parameter #16 value), CC#98/value 24(VCF for example here) to select the Parameter and finally CC#6/current value(position of knob) is sent to indicate the value desired for that parameter.
So its sending THREE values all at one time... well in the order of 99,98 and then #6 CC's.

Be sure you set up the NRPN control on the same MIDI channel that your HAWK is responding to.. some devices will have this in the main menu as well under the NRPN control setup.
It appears your Photon has a GLOBAL MIDI channel value, then additionally each knob can be assigned its own MIDI Channel as well.. BE SURE TO CHECK THAT.

Let us know what you find under all your menu layers.. I bet you will find there's a NRPN setting in there somewhere.. either that or it will be like CC#135 or something odd like that.
Unbelievable I cannot find ANYTHING on the net to explain how to setup NRPN's on that controller keyboard.. too bad Alesis is kinda gone.. M-Audio/Akai absorbed them, I think.

If you are interested, I did design a software GUI that can edit most HAWK parameters at a glance.
I have not had time to work on it further, but it can be found on my Google Drive here for you to try out, if you like.

PolyGon V9-7-DEMO.zip

click the download button at top center, unzip, read the READ ME on how to set it up.

PolyGon V9-7-DEMO.zip

View on drive.google.com

Preview by Yahoo

Good luck and hope this helps out.
/Blaine

Re: [korgpolyex] Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

2015-12-11 by Michael Hawkins

The CC# is a bit misleading. But I honestly haven't been able to work out a better name for that column. But no, they are not direct CC numbers. They are used for setting the parameter number when using the three different methods that are detailed in the owners manual. Again, I understand this is not necessarily an easy thing to get your head around.

As others have pointed out, you really need to get a handle on your controller and figure out how to send NRPN's.

But do have a look at the MIDI implementation chart again and you will see that you can control VCF cut off, VCF resonance and a few other of the really useful controls with direct CC messages.

/Mike

From: "msfshirow@... [korgpolyex]" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

Thanks for the reply.

Maybe I should have been more clear. After printing out and using the Parameter Quick Reference sheets, I'd assumed (dangerous, I know) that by just assigning the corresponding CC# of the parameter I want to edit to a knob on the controller, that was all it would take. For example, the chart shows CC#24 for filter cutoff, so I thought that assigning knob 1 to CC#24 was all I needed to do. Evidently that is not the case.

Please excuse my ignorance in this area... I've never really used or set up a controller before.

But let's go back to the filter cutoff for a second here. What would need to be done then to set up a knob on a controller to handle cutoff? The manual says, in the MIDI CC Non Registered Parameter Number Method section, to "Send CC#99 with data value matching Global Parameter 16... Then send CC#98 with data value set to desired target parameter... Then send CC#6 with data value set to desired target value." The controller I have only allows one CC# to be assigned to any one particular knob or slider, so I don't see how this could work. Am I overlooking something glaringly obvious here?

Thanks for the help.

Re: [korgpolyex] Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

2015-12-11 by Michael Hawkins

well, if you check out the MIDI implementation chart of the software version that I have not yet release - yes, you can control any running parameter using SYSEX.

Patch parameter change

F0 42 21 0F xx yy F7 - Change the current operating patch parameter where xx is the parameter number (P1 11-88 corresponds to values 0-63 and P2 11-88 corresponds to values 64-127) and yy is the parameter data value. Data values are scaled or absolute dependent upon global parameter 47 (where 0 is scaled and 1 is absolute).

I just haven't had time to finish the one feature I really wanted to get into the next release which is dramatically improved portamento.

/Mike

From: "domgoold@... [korgpolyex]" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

Hi Mike,
do you mean by this that these 'NRPN' params can be controlled by Sysex as well?

i have some confusion with NRPNs, how to use them. - but manufs do seem to like them ! -

could you please describe step by step how you use NRPNs in an 'easy' way?
i'm thinking, terribly complicated, calling NRPN, and then sending data#6 - and this, as far
as i understand, means that NRPN will be assigned to MIDI CC#6 until you specify another
NRPN, or send a (?end of NRPN?) message.

the Novation Remote has a NRPN mode - i have a feeling it may deal with everything under the
bonnet, to make it usable, but i haven't checked.

>because, basically, what we want, is just to grab a control and tweak it, rather than having
to set up a complicated series of messages in a list editor, right..?

>wondering, bcause i'm getting the hang of the Remote now, and it's Remote Editor.

Re: Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

2015-12-12 by msfshirow@...

Here's a follow up.

In a rare moment of clarity, the proverbial light came on while I was re-reading the relevant part of the HAWK-800 manual... Specifically, the "Hardware Controller Friendly" section. There are ten knobs on the Photon, so I assigned knob 1 to CC#22, 2 to #23, 3 to #24 etc. It makes sense now. Knob 1 selects the parameter group, then the remaining knobs give control over the up to eight parameters in selected group. After setting it up successfully and noodling around for a while I thought it felt somehow familiar. Hmmmm. Waldorf! In essence, this method sets up a sort of editing matrix almost like what you find on their rackmounted synths such as the Microwave, Micro Q, or tabletops like the Blofeld and so on (I'm sure there are other synths made by other manufacturers that utilize this sort of thing too, I'm just going with ones I've used/owned). Glad I got things worked out.

As a bonus, since I'm a visual thinker, I've made a reference chart (cheat sheet) that shows how the editing matrix is set up. Come to think of it, I made a parameter sheet a while ago that fits on the EX-800 with all the HAWK parameters on it... (Edit & re-post: files uploaded to miscellaneous folder)

Thanks for the help by the way.

:)

Re: Controller setup: Is there an easy way?

2016-01-01 by chillipower.uk@...

Interesting idea - this sounds simple to implement yet flexible too.

I wonder if I could set up my X-Station like this. Seems maximum control for minimum knobs/sliders, although downside is having to remember the codes - still, seems like a good compromise given all the params in the hawk 800!